I have a new forum setup using Kuena on my website, just register a user account, I even tried using reCaptcha thing built into it.. setup a key etc.. Not sure if it's working perfect, but my admin account is, and I created a VoidWorld Support forum, and created the first post in it.. If anyone else is interested, they can join in, if not that's ok too, I was just thinking about a place for help and tutorials, so I can stop posting all these youtube links etc.. here filling up the forum posts..
I'm more than willing to help out, as are alot of others on this forum.. All you have to do is ask, and if you don't want to post to the forum, then you can pm us on here also.. Alright, I'm up early enough today, so I will try and finish the head on the model tutorial, before the wife or kids get home later.. So, keep an eye out for the rest of those as well.. I hope this helps out..
StOrM3
Thanks storm3, I will also take you up on the offer (and any others) I will also impart any knowledge I gain as well as I progress)
I really would like to get to grips with this programme.
I have downloaded your tutorials and will start them from vid one and work along.
Thanks again for your time in doing these.
Summary of changes:
* Big change in radial menu system, your radial menu settings are not maintained. 1. User can create own menus. 2. Menu level is unlimited. 3. All menu items are available at the same time for choosing. 4. Sticky behaviour is added for menus activated from hotkeys. If mouse button is not used, tap the key. Other wise, either click the mouse button or click the mouse button then realse key immediately. 5. Streamline tools can be activated through radial menu. This is usefull if hotkeys ran out. It is slower but this tool can be helpfull, Misc Tools > Activate Last Streamline Tool, also available in shortcut tools and radial menu items.
* Edge shoulder extrusion direction is determined by mouse gesture move direction. The same applies to vertex extruding.
* Polygon extrusion in vertex normal style is improved. resut shape is more reasonable.
* One more edge extrusion options is added into Retopo tool, edge normal extrusion. Help > Contents > Modeling > Edge Section > Retopo > Polygon creation tools > By extruding out new geometries.
* Edit > Options > Keep Subobject Selections In Seperate Stack. Edit > Options > Undo/Redo Subobject Selection.
* Slide Selection tool is improved. Help > Contents > Modeling > StreamLine Tools, scroll down to bottom.
* I try to use multi-threads to improve rendering preformance again. My compouter only has two processors, so the performance is not stable since there are some running background programmes every now and then. I need feedbacks on whether it works fine in computers which has at least 3 processors. Basically, set the number of processors to a value 1 or 2 less than the available number. Edit > Options > Set Number Of Processors.
Thanks!
flatD: Range edge ring selection can be mad by MMB. Help > Modeling > Selection Tools > Pattern Selection > Edge Pattern Selection. I think I should leave the Sholder Edge Extrusion option in top menue. User can access the hotkey command by End key + this top menu.
passerby: Great stuff! I have posted the new update there as well. Hope it works well.
I'm running a machine with an Intel i7-2600 CPU. That's 4 cores with 8 threads.
Normal ambient temp sits around the 36°C mark with CPU usage at around 2-4%. As soon as I run Voidworld with number of processors set to 6 it flies up to CPU usage 65-70% and the temperature sits around the 70°C mark. Call me paranoid but I'm a little scared to run Voidworld now for extended periods. (this is a relatively new build so I'm a bit wary of these things)
Incidentally running maya:
CPU Usage = 3-7%
CPU temp = 40°C
Same with Softimage.
I'll rollback to a previous version of VW to see if there's any difference. (I never checked this stuff before - I was testing your viewport performance enhancement)
*edit_1*
ok just tried your VoidWorld-aug-25a-11 version and I get these results
CPU Usage = 20% (average)
CPU temp = 45-48°C
So your new changes definitely have a much larger hit on this machine.
Parts 4 & 5 of Tutorial #2 Head Modeling are done and uploaded to YouTube...
Here are the Links, I Will Also, Start Posting All of These to my Forums on my Website, so eventually, I can just start posting them there, instead of junking up these update and beta test forums...
Hope you enjoy, Also I posted an article to my website reviewing VW 2.4...
Also, Kun, I had an error pop up during part 4 of the tutorial, I have never had this happen before an attempt was made to access memory already in use, yada, yada, you can see the error message in the video, but I was able to click continue and the app worked fine from then on, no serious crash alah silo.. Thank God, that would have sucked that far into the tutorial..
Enjoy, and be sure and register on the site & forums, so that eventually I can just post updates there for the tutorials, and help to provide help, and you guys can help as well, and I will make some of you moderators to help me keep things in order..
Thank you so much for the new build! I still don't understand how you can update so many things in such a short amount of time. Fantastic!
I tested the multi-processor update. Like Ghib, I am running an i7 multi-threaded processor (8threads). I set my processors to 6 of the available 8, and the same thing happens, my fans kick on, and it sounds like a rocketship taking off. On top of that (and I'm sure you don't want to hear this), there was no noticeable increase in draw-performance.
The draw lag happens on both Nvidia and AMD video cards, I've tested multiple models on both. Hope that helps you get closer to finding a solution.
Summary of changes:
* Two bugs found by passerby on new radial menu creation are fixed. "Suobject Menu" was same as "Subobject Menuset", "Generic Menu" was same as "Generic Menuset".
Thanks!
ghib: I did a bit research and found some intel i7 ambient temperature information. maximum: 115c, safe: under 70c.
Can you do a test? Put in an object with over 500,000 face, change the number of processors to check the fps differences, also see if it is stable in multi threading.
storm3: Thanks for the tutorial vidz! I am learning myself. If that error happens again, can you click the details button and capture the information? I hope it is a system fault and will never happen a gain.
Thank you very much for the kind words, I appreciate it.. My daughter is getting a kick out of people seeing her picture in the tutorials.. hehehe
Thanks again, I will keep it up, we are almost to the point of cutting poly's and re-creating them correctly for nose structure, eye, mouth.. I already have the model complete twice over now, I have to keep re-doing it before starting back into the tutorial so I can warm up, and remember what to do next.. etc.. hehehe
Whenever I get feedback on the tutorials I tell my daughter and she smiles and laughs.. she loves it..
Ciao' 4 now, probably won't be more tut's tomorrow, as my Cowboys are playing, unless I get time during the day before they come on..
On a scene with 540672 faces things that seem to slow down viewport performance are; hard edges all, wireframe and shadedWireframe.
Number of Processors:These tests are with soft edges on all objects
1.
shaded = 66 fps
shaded+wireframe = 4.7 fps
shaded+hardedges ALL = 8.5 fps
wiremesh all (show edges off) = 66 fps
6.
shaded = 66 fps
shaded+wireframe = 4.7
shaded+hardedges ALL = 8.5 fps
wiremesh all (show edges off) = 66 fps
Just as a final test I turned on hard edges all and shadedWireframe to see what would happen. Result = 3.18 fps. The worst hit yet.
I didn't put all the number of processes tested in because they didn't vary at all between 1 & 6. It seems that wireframe on shaded kills the framerate but curiously enough wiremesh doesn't.
Hope this helps.
p.s. just as a comparison; in Mudbox 2012 I can divide the basic head up to 32million faces with smooth shaded, wireframe on, show backfaces and get 125 fps while rotating the viewport.
p.p.s Just tried subdividing it again to see what would happen 131million faces and I can still rotate at 125 fps and sculpt like butter :O I'm scared to go 1 higher. Feel like I'm standing looking over the edge of the cliff.
after upgrading to it some events on a custom streamline tool got messed up most of which i was able to fix, but now it is impossible to use any of the symmetry cut commands as events in a streamline tool.
if i got to try to setup a event on say rmb click when i go to select "Symmetry Remove-Negative (Weld/NoWeld)#" or any of the other similar tool it wont properley select and wont work in The streamline tool."
Summary of changes:
* A few bugs in tool identifying are fixed.
Thanks!
3dtoons & ghib: Thanks for the testing. I did have 30% improvements in my machine when I set it to 2 processors, although the fps may suddenly drop to very low occasionally. I will keep working on it.
storm3: All kind words are not enough for your good efforts. HeHe.
Many thanks for them implementation of optional Selection-Undo Kun!
I still have to test Performance with proper settings - what I can say it that the Program showed extreme Lags with all 8 threads accidentally assigned.
Good to see the new Forum, I guess we should just make the Switch now.
Thanks also to Passerby for posting Settings - I've seen them and checked them out - they were a good starting point.
I would like to spend far more time to check VW out - but Mesh-Modeling doesn't play the central role in my 3D-Work. So understanding complex customization-concepts might take a bit longer to settle.
hi Passerby - could you maybe set the forum up in a way that one can read without having to LogIn each time? I believe that's friendlier to anyone who just wants to have a look and to download the program.
Edit:
I see this is possible. But is there also a setting for "show new posts" or such?
So that one does not have to login but can see what happened lately.
hi Passerby - could you maybe set the forum up in a way that one can read without having to LogIn each time? I believe that's friendlier to anyone who just wants to have a look and to download the program.
Edit:
I see this is possible. But is there also a setting for "show new posts" or such?
So that one does not have to login but can see what happened lately.
will look into it.
what do you mean it dosnt require people to be logged in ot read topics, and there is a option to stay logged in permanently.
or are you talking about having a new posts show as new for people who don't got a account or are logged in?
edit: also make topic for site and forum suggestions on the forms that way i wont lose them in a long ass topic if they are for long term changes.
I meant an option for non-registered users to get a quick overview what's going on - some today's posts or better as there will not be so much traffic yet "recent posts".
I meant an option for non-registered users to get a quick overview what's going on - some today's posts or better as there will not be so much traffic yet "recent posts".
i can make a link that shows recent posts but to actually have it going threw guest cookies and have it show what guests have read and not read like it does registered users it would generate a lot of traffic and degrade performance a bit.
would creating a new block under the boards showing recent stuff be a good solution?
Is there a way to have the Visual Tools Selections at the bottom of the main window and also have the full Window on the side as well ?
I find it a little annoying when I scroll down to a command then have to scroll all the way to the top again to make a selection of Vertices, Edge, Face etc:
Then again if I learn the shortcut keys I wouldn't need the selections at the bottom.
PS: Is there a printable version of the hot-keys, that also updates if we make a change to our own customization, then print that off ?
Its OK I found it, you can export the list as a TXT file
Is there a way to have the Visual Tools Selections at the bottom of the main window and also have the full Window on the side as well ?
I find it a little annoying when I scroll down to a command then have to scroll all the way to the top again to make a selection of Vertices, Edge, Face etc:
Then again if I learn the shortcut keys I wouldn't need the selections at the bottom.
PS: Is there a printable version of the hot-keys, that also updates if we make a change to our own customization, then print that off ?
Its OK I found it, you can export the list as a TXT file
in the customize tools window you can export your binds to a txt file to print.
but also what your looking for, in the default VW config is actually just the first 5 number keys to switch component types, or if your using my configs it is
A Vert
S Edge
D Face
F Object
G Mesh
so those keys should be easy to remember since there all in a line and your basic tools like selection, move, scale, and rotate are all in a other line of keys above those ones. on
Q Selection
W Move
E Scale
R Rotate
my config is more oriented to using key commands and radial menus and i personally have never used the visual tools panel in VW.
in the customize tools window you can export your binds to a txt file to print.
but also what your looking for, in the default VW config is actually just the first 5 number keys to switch component types, or if your using my configs it is
A Vert
S Edge
D Face
F Object
G Mesh
so those keys should be easy to remember since there all in a line and your basic tools like selection, move, scale, and rotate are all in a other line of keys above those ones. on
Q Selection
W Move
E Scale
R Rotate
my config is more oriented to using key commands and radial menus and i personally have never used the visual tools panel in VW.
Thanks,
I have printed off the hotkey list and will now work on setting them up to my liking
I never put together the orientation of the keys for selections and transformations, now that will make things a lot easier.
@ya i got all the tranformation tools and selection types all in a row
even 3ds max does the same thing expect they have the selection types on 1 to 4 instead of asdf.
also a other option for you could be to change selection types maya style by useing a radial menu.
in maya you can just hold rmb on a object to pop up a menu to switch selection types which can easily be re-made in VW if you wanted.
ya when you put your hotkeys together try to think of of what is used most often
i got like i already mentioned the qwer row for transformations and the asdfg row for selection types, and because extrude is one of the most common operations i got it on z so it is the start of the next row than got cut a other common tool beside it on x and because loop-cut is essentially a more advanced version of the cut i put it on shift+x.
you can get a really efficient key setup relative to where you hand is on the keyboard by thinking of it that way. or you could always give keys that start with the same letter of the tool in same cases if that helps you remember, such as putting bevel/chamfer on B or putting a tool like inset on i.
hope this info helps you build your own setup or at least help you with my by knowing the reasoning behind why i have certain things where i do.
@ya i got all the tranformation tools and selection types all in a row
even 3ds max does the same thing expect they have the selection types on 1 to 4 instead of asdf.
also a other option for you could be to change selection types maya style by useing a radial menu.
in maya you can just hold rmb on a object to pop up a menu to switch selection types which can easily be re-made in VW if you wanted.
ya when you put your hotkeys together try to think of of what is used most often
i got like i already mentioned the qwer row for transformations and the asdfg row for selection types, and because extrude is one of the most common operations i got it on z so it is the start of the next row than got cut a other common tool beside it on x and because loop-cut is essentially a more advanced version of the cut i put it on shift+x.
you can get a really efficient key setup relative to where you hand is on the keyboard by thinking of it that way. or you could always give keys that start with the same letter of the tool in same cases if that helps you remember, such as putting bevel/chamfer on B or putting a tool like inset on i.
hope this info helps you build your own setup or at least help you with my by knowing the reasoning behind why i have certain things where i do.
If anyone is interested I have put together a spread sheet with the hot-keys, there are about 4 worksheets, The original copy of the TXT file then the other sheets are sorted in various configurations, Alphabetical, population etc:
It can give you the option of updating your hot-keys and printing them off how you like them IE; the actions in alphabetical order.
Sorry to be out of the loop for so long, and to NOT finish the tutorials, but I ran out of my meds, and am in tons of pain and wd etc.. My next dr. appointment is on Wed. so I will try to have the rest of tuts done sometime short after this.
Sorry to be out of the loop for so long, and to NOT finish the tutorials, but I ran out of my meds, and am in tons of pain and wd etc.. My next dr. appointment is on Wed. so I will try to have the rest of tuts done sometime short after this.
Thanks for understanding,
StOrM3
ya thats a shitty deal, hope you can get your meds and feel better soon mate.
also i wouldn't worry about rushing the tut's with the people in this forum im sure people can just ask questions to figure out what they need to learn or know, cause i know tutorials can be pretty difficult to make to good quality and are very time consuming to make.
Summary of changes:
* Radial menus can be activated by mouse buttons alone.
* Radial menus and streamline tools can share the same set of hotkeys. But they should use different mouse buttons.
* Edit > Options > Radial Menu Options > Sticky Enabled.
* Edit > Cutomize Tools > Subobject Shourtcut Tools > Island Select. The program will select the highlighted subobject and grow the selection from there. Existing selection will serve as boundary to limit the selection growing.
* Misc Tools > Hide Unselected.
* A new column is added into "Object List View" in "SceneExplorer". If the object is hdden, "H" will present. If object's mesh or subobjects hidden, "h" will present.
* Two more basic streamline tools. Edge_DoubleLoop_Cut/Slide, Edge_Loop_Cut/Slide_FixedLength(UseLastValue).
* Another attemp to improve rendering performance by multithreading. ghib, polyxo, 3dtoons, please do a test for this again.
Thanks!
storm3: I feel sorry for your condition. Don't let the tuts be a burden. Take care!!! Chow for now.
sorry Istonia, a really quick test before I head off for work this morning. Viewport freezes every couple of seconds while rotating view. This is with a simple cube. Will also try at work with a different video card.
I haven't been able to test any of the new features or bug fixes since you started working on the optimization (which is important to get right). Not complaining, just saying
I just gave another test at home now (Version. sep-19-11) I have a maximum of 8 logical processors. Changed the number of processors used to 2 and the fps results are:
Faces 12 = 250 fps
Faces 192 = 250 fps
Faces 3072 = 250 fps
Faces 49152 = 62 fps
Faces 196608 = 12 fps (shaded only = 25 fps)
It won't actually let me subdivide any higher than this.
I did the same test with 3 processors and the results were the same.
Turned on 4 processors and the viewport freezing issue appears and with each processor added it gets progressively worse.
p.s. slide tool seems to be a bit more stable now, but I've only tested it on simple geometry. I'll give more feedback on complex geometry.
p.p.s. I'll give your latest a test now. How difficult and fiddly would it be to have the version number on the top of the Window along with VoidWorld 2.4 sep-20-11. I'm finding that I have multiple versions installed now and it would make things a little easier to keep in check. Anyway good job with the latest changes Kun. I have a big list of changes I think Voidworld needs but I'm waiting until you have finished your optimisation. Keep it up mate you're doing a great job.
p.p.p.s. ok sep-20-11 result. Setting any higher than 2 processors completely freezes VW. 2 processors seems to run ok though.
Haven't really tried it until today. Finally had a better chance to look at this than before. Easy to learn and the workflow is nice. Made this from the time I opened up Void World until Render. 20 minutes to Model in Void WOrld and 10 minutes to texture and Render. Good Job on the program! I am going to try and complete a Pagani (a very expensive car) now. Hopefully I can be done with that soon.
The only issue I had was selecting Vertices in Wireframe mode. I can never figure out how to select Vertices on the other side of the object. I always had to rotate the object and select them.
subdproxy that's awesome and good to see how easily you picked it up. I love how fluid a modeler Voidworld has become.
Istonia, I just gave the Island select a test works really well, thanks for getting that in so quickly. I was just wondering though whether the behaviour could be extended to the double click philosophy i.e. select boundary then double LMB click somewhere in the island to grow fully within the island. It might free up a hotkey and also be intuitive. Bear in mind that this should happen only if the same poly/edge/vert is double clicked; to allow the user to still make edge loop/ring/gap selections of geometry.
Also maybe MMB double click to override the boundary and grow the selection to the full mesh.
i think for optimization your going to have to pay attention to more than just multi-threading it, VW is still way behind other packages, VW gets pretty un-useable with around 300k polys while with maya i can get close to 3m polys and still have things perform good, and even if we compare to silo which i was able to get fairly close to 1million with ok performance. think to get into these kinda numbers your going to need to reconsider how things are being rendered.
subdproxy: You can use MMB to do select through. Help > Contents > Modeling > Selection Tools.
ghib: I'll see if I can apply double click to island selection. It seems, for vertex and polygon no problem, but for edge it may not possible since double LMB for edge loop and double MMB for edge ring.
passerby: Multi threading is the quickest way, but it just won't work.
Istonia just gave that a quick test. previously ( sep-19-11) in a simple scene with just a cube; setting the processors above 2 would result in choppy viewport performance (freezing while rotating).
Now with sep-20a-11 there is an improvement with 3 processors (or more) set. It also no longer completely freezes Voidworld.
Now subdivide the cube up to 49152 faces with 6 processors and I get around 54 fps with the occasional viewport freeze (lasts only a second or two).
The freezing seems to occur more when switching between rotate/pan/zoom or on releasing a mouse button then clicking again e.g rotating with LMB, release then press LMB to further rotate.
this screengrab is after a few mins of testing with 6 processors used in VW. You can see that all 8 seem to be used fully and fluctuate wildly.
I'm not the most tech savvy person in the world so maybe one of the other users will be able to give you more info on this.
I think that passerby may be right that you need to look at the method of rendering too.
ghib: Thanks for the testing!
It seems at 6 cores the performance decreased compare to 62 fps with 2 cores you reported earlier. Can you test with 1 and 4 cores on 49125 faces and let me know the results?
Yeah, I will look into other possible ways. I am now just finding a way to use multi cores to share some computations.
Istonia, no problem man. Anything I can do to help.. just tried your latest version on my work machine which has an Intel Xeon W3680 @3.33GHz (12 CPUs).
In VW I set the number of processors to 10 and the viewport freezing is even worse.
ok so the test:
2 Processors
Faces 49152 = 60 fps
3 Processors
Faces 49152 = 58 fps
4 Processors
Faces 49152 = 54 fps (with a couple of 1 second freezes)
5 Processors
Faces 49152 = 53 fps
6 Processors
Faces 49152 = 53 fps
7 Processors
Faces 49152 = 52 fps (Screen freezing appearing more often by now)
10 Processors
Faces 49152 = 52 fps (By now the freezing is completely unworkable)
So it seems that the framerate remains relatively consistent but the freezing gets progressively worse.
Summary of changes:
* Island select can be performed by LMB double click in vertex/polygon mode, provided Include selection boolean key(default: Shift) is pressed down.
* Rendering performance should be better off if the following conditions are met:
1. Rendering > Cull None is checked.
2. Rendering > Back Face In Gray is not checked.
Thanks!
ghib: So, there is no gain in framerate by using muliti-core. That's what I want to know. Thanks!
Just trying a scene now and I upped the face count to 434176 and I'm getting a consistent 33 fps using 2 or 10 processors. thumbs up.
I made the changes to the rendering that you suggested (cull none & backface in grey)
*edit* I just experienced a crash when trying to enter poly mode.
'The programe has encountered an error and must shut down'
Anyway it seemed promising for a moment there
Also.. The Island select works really well. Nice one.
wow just tested that new selection type and it is sweet.
oh and to throw some compliments out for you, i think VW has the best selection system out of any app i ever used and the tools are just as smoother as silo now but with a hell of a lot more power behind them, for modeling the only thing that holds me back from using vw for all work is performance.
nice that it is both good on selections and tools since i find with hte experience with maya it's tools are a bitch to work with and with my experience with modo it is excellent tools but it is hard to make complex selections, so nice to have something that does both right.
I have some slow down on last relase. Previous was faster for me on my 3core AMD.
btw. I think this is bug:
view->Windows-> material window won't work for me.
Thanks for great work istonia.
I feel like vw was powerful like Photoshop but with performance limitation to 512x512 canvas size .
ghib: Please don't make mistake. My suggestion is cull-none and NOT-BackfaceInGrey. Under this condition, the app don't need to do computations that will slow down the rendering performance.
Is it possible to reproduce the crash?
passerby: Thanks for the comparison!
Jose: What is the problem with the Material Window? If it is missing, try View > Windows > Reset.
Does the performance you talked about refer to rendering or mesh editing?
guys, I'm back... So expect some more of the tuts to roll off the assembly line in the next few days.. Gotta finish b4 this weekend, since it is my boys birthday, and hunting season opens as well. Thanks to everyone for the kind words, and understanding...
PS: IStonia - Thank you again, and I'm back in black, and I've got some info and ideas about how to help out with rendering etc... Your using C# correct.. I think that the auto garbage collection is not firing enough, and the more cores you enable, just lets the app, fill up the temp store / etc.. with garbage handles etc.. more cores = more hanging refs / un-reclaimed system resources, until Visual C# decides to fire the auto garbage collector.. Ummm, are you using 2008 or 2010?? and the 64bit tools / libs or just the default x86 32bit targets? Also, as far as rendering speed, this should be handled by the videocard cpu not system CPU unless your using a Newer engine such as DX10 / DX11 = tweening & tessellation and tons more poly's possible. DX9 - More tricks are needed for higher poly counts.. umm are you making use of Cuda in the nVidia library? Because this is how 3DCoat achieves much higher poly counts, this with some voxel switching, and slight of hand.. At least with some nVidia cards Cuda is necessary for higher performance, and 3dcoat even mentions if you have a specific level of card you can get more perfornance from opengl as the renderer instead of DX.. Hey, how bout this, add in an option to switch between either openGL / DX, of course requiring an app restart, and include an openGL renderer.. This should not be too hard to do.. I just had a lightbulb go off over my head when I was saying this about the multiple renderers meaning openGL / DX9... 64bit app appears to be the way to go to squeeze the most out of the default system rendering, but DX10 and up have neat trix like Bloom, references etc.. DX11 = Best rendering ever!!! So Real / So Fast = dynamic tessellation which ups the poly count on objects adding tons of detail, with next to no speed loss, and can be turned on and off like a light switch..
IStonia, sorry to hit you with all of this at once, but I told you when I'm out of pain my brain suddenly starts working on overdrive again.. Told you I was a pretty good programmer too.. ;')
If you want to talk more about this, or bounce ideas around let me know.. also what libs your using ?? Maybe suggest a few others..
Alrighty, IStonia, I hope I helped you have another one of those aha! Moments!!!.. ehehehe
DX / OpenGL rendering selection.. also, 64bit Multi-threaded app optional version.. see 3dcoat also about number of threads per CPU in the options 64bit Cuda enabled version..
nVidia libs are good!!! Especially using the apex libs..
K.. done with the run-on now..
Hit me back..
Is there anything in the newest release that I may want to include in the next tutorial IStonia??!!??
Replies
I have a new forum setup using Kuena on my website, just register a user account, I even tried using reCaptcha thing built into it.. setup a key etc.. Not sure if it's working perfect, but my admin account is, and I created a VoidWorld Support forum, and created the first post in it.. If anyone else is interested, they can join in, if not that's ok too, I was just thinking about a place for help and tutorials, so I can stop posting all these youtube links etc.. here filling up the forum posts..
I hope you like it, let me know,
StOrM3
btw: the address is: pkegames.com
Thanks storm3, I will also take you up on the offer (and any others) I will also impart any knowledge I gain as well as I progress)
I really would like to get to grips with this programme.
I have downloaded your tutorials and will start them from vid one and work along.
Thanks again for your time in doing these.
I have just signed up as well
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-sep-11-11.rar
Summary of changes:
* Big change in radial menu system, your radial menu settings are not maintained. 1. User can create own menus. 2. Menu level is unlimited. 3. All menu items are available at the same time for choosing. 4. Sticky behaviour is added for menus activated from hotkeys. If mouse button is not used, tap the key. Other wise, either click the mouse button or click the mouse button then realse key immediately. 5. Streamline tools can be activated through radial menu. This is usefull if hotkeys ran out. It is slower but this tool can be helpfull, Misc Tools > Activate Last Streamline Tool, also available in shortcut tools and radial menu items.
* Edge shoulder extrusion direction is determined by mouse gesture move direction. The same applies to vertex extruding.
* Polygon extrusion in vertex normal style is improved. resut shape is more reasonable.
* One more edge extrusion options is added into Retopo tool, edge normal extrusion. Help > Contents > Modeling > Edge Section > Retopo > Polygon creation tools > By extruding out new geometries.
* Edit > Options > Keep Subobject Selections In Seperate Stack. Edit > Options > Undo/Redo Subobject Selection.
* Slide Selection tool is improved. Help > Contents > Modeling > StreamLine Tools, scroll down to bottom.
* I try to use multi-threads to improve rendering preformance again. My compouter only has two processors, so the performance is not stable since there are some running background programmes every now and then. I need feedbacks on whether it works fine in computers which has at least 3 processors. Basically, set the number of processors to a value 1 or 2 less than the available number. Edit > Options > Set Number Of Processors.
Thanks!
flatD: Range edge ring selection can be mad by MMB. Help > Modeling > Selection Tools > Pattern Selection > Edge Pattern Selection. I think I should leave the Sholder Edge Extrusion option in top menue. User can access the hotkey command by End key + this top menu.
passerby: Great stuff! I have posted the new update there as well. Hope it works well.
i made you a administrator on the forum site.
I'm running a machine with an Intel i7-2600 CPU. That's 4 cores with 8 threads.
Normal ambient temp sits around the 36°C mark with CPU usage at around 2-4%. As soon as I run Voidworld with number of processors set to 6 it flies up to CPU usage 65-70% and the temperature sits around the 70°C mark. Call me paranoid but I'm a little scared to run Voidworld now for extended periods. (this is a relatively new build so I'm a bit wary of these things)
Incidentally running maya:
CPU Usage = 3-7%
CPU temp = 40°C
Same with Softimage.
I'll rollback to a previous version of VW to see if there's any difference. (I never checked this stuff before - I was testing your viewport performance enhancement)
*edit_1*
ok just tried your VoidWorld-aug-25a-11 version and I get these results
CPU Usage = 20% (average)
CPU temp = 45-48°C
So your new changes definitely have a much larger hit on this machine.
Parts 4 & 5 of Tutorial #2 Head Modeling are done and uploaded to YouTube...
Here are the Links, I Will Also, Start Posting All of These to my Forums on my Website, so eventually, I can just start posting them there, instead of junking up these update and beta test forums...
[ame]
[ame]
Hope you enjoy, Also I posted an article to my website reviewing VW 2.4...
Also, Kun, I had an error pop up during part 4 of the tutorial, I have never had this happen before an attempt was made to access memory already in use, yada, yada, you can see the error message in the video, but I was able to click continue and the app worked fine from then on, no serious crash alah silo.. Thank God, that would have sucked that far into the tutorial..
Enjoy, and be sure and register on the site & forums, so that eventually I can just post updates there for the tutorials, and help to provide help, and you guys can help as well, and I will make some of you moderators to help me keep things in order..
StOrM3
I tested the multi-processor update. Like Ghib, I am running an i7 multi-threaded processor (8threads). I set my processors to 6 of the available 8, and the same thing happens, my fans kick on, and it sounds like a rocketship taking off. On top of that (and I'm sure you don't want to hear this), there was no noticeable increase in draw-performance.
The draw lag happens on both Nvidia and AMD video cards, I've tested multiple models on both. Hope that helps you get closer to finding a solution.
Good luck sir!
-ShaneO
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-sep-11a-11.rar
Summary of changes:
* Two bugs found by passerby on new radial menu creation are fixed. "Suobject Menu" was same as "Subobject Menuset", "Generic Menu" was same as "Generic Menuset".
Thanks!
ghib: I did a bit research and found some intel i7 ambient temperature information. maximum: 115c, safe: under 70c.
Can you do a test? Put in an object with over 500,000 face, change the number of processors to check the fps differences, also see if it is stable in multi threading.
storm3: Thanks for the tutorial vidz! I am learning myself. If that error happens again, can you click the details button and capture the information? I hope it is a system fault and will never happen a gain.
Thank you very much for the kind words, I appreciate it.. My daughter is getting a kick out of people seeing her picture in the tutorials.. hehehe
Thanks again, I will keep it up, we are almost to the point of cutting poly's and re-creating them correctly for nose structure, eye, mouth.. I already have the model complete twice over now, I have to keep re-doing it before starting back into the tutorial so I can warm up, and remember what to do next.. etc.. hehehe
Whenever I get feedback on the tutorials I tell my daughter and she smiles and laughs.. she loves it..
Ciao' 4 now, probably won't be more tut's tomorrow, as my Cowboys are playing, unless I get time during the day before they come on..
Talk to you l8r,
StOrM3
My build specs are:
Mobo: Asus P8P67 Deluxe
CPU: Intel i7 2600 @ 3.40GHz
RAM: 16GB
GPU:NVIDIA GeForce GTX 570 (Superclocked)
On a scene with 540672 faces things that seem to slow down viewport performance are; hard edges all, wireframe and shadedWireframe.
Number of Processors: These tests are with soft edges on all objects
Just as a final test I turned on hard edges all and shadedWireframe to see what would happen. Result = 3.18 fps. The worst hit yet.
I didn't put all the number of processes tested in because they didn't vary at all between 1 & 6. It seems that wireframe on shaded kills the framerate but curiously enough wiremesh doesn't.
Hope this helps.
p.s. just as a comparison; in Mudbox 2012 I can divide the basic head up to 32million faces with smooth shaded, wireframe on, show backfaces and get 125 fps while rotating the viewport.
p.p.s Just tried subdividing it again to see what would happen 131million faces and I can still rotate at 125 fps and sculpt like butter :O I'm scared to go 1 higher. Feel like I'm standing looking over the edge of the cliff.
"found a new bug in this version of VW.
after upgrading to it some events on a custom streamline tool got messed up most of which i was able to fix, but now it is impossible to use any of the symmetry cut commands as events in a streamline tool.
if i got to try to setup a event on say rmb click when i go to select "Symmetry Remove-Negative (Weld/NoWeld)#" or any of the other similar tool it wont properley select and wont work in The streamline tool."
i also posted it to
http://voidworld.cmcproductions.co.uk/index.php/topic,6.0.html
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-sep-12-11.rar
Summary of changes:
* A few bugs in tool identifying are fixed.
Thanks!
3dtoons & ghib: Thanks for the testing. I did have 30% improvements in my machine when I set it to 2 processors, although the fps may suddenly drop to very low occasionally. I will keep working on it.
storm3: All kind words are not enough for your good efforts. HeHe.
I still have to test Performance with proper settings - what I can say it that the Program showed extreme Lags with all 8 threads accidentally assigned.
Good to see the new Forum, I guess we should just make the Switch now.
Thanks also to Passerby for posting Settings - I've seen them and checked them out - they were a good starting point.
I would like to spend far more time to check VW out - but Mesh-Modeling doesn't play the central role in my 3D-Work. So understanding complex customization-concepts might take a bit longer to settle.
Extremely laggy. I can't even rotate a cube in the Viewport.
confirmed, same happens here. 1 cube, rotate viewport is very sluggish and pauses every second or so.
http://voidworld.cmcproductions.co.uk/index.php/board,4.0.html
To me the multithreading looks very attractive...
Wasn't there an option to get some cheap quadcore machine set up for you?
hi Passerby - could you maybe set the forum up in a way that one can read without having to LogIn each time? I believe that's friendlier to anyone who just wants to have a look and to download the program.
Edit:
I see this is possible. But is there also a setting for "show new posts" or such?
So that one does not have to login but can see what happened lately.
will look into it.
what do you mean it dosnt require people to be logged in ot read topics, and there is a option to stay logged in permanently.
or are you talking about having a new posts show as new for people who don't got a account or are logged in?
edit: also make topic for site and forum suggestions on the forms that way i wont lose them in a long ass topic if they are for long term changes.
i can make a link that shows recent posts but to actually have it going threw guest cookies and have it show what guests have read and not read like it does registered users it would generate a lot of traffic and degrade performance a bit.
would creating a new block under the boards showing recent stuff be a good solution?
I find it a little annoying when I scroll down to a command then have to scroll all the way to the top again to make a selection of Vertices, Edge, Face etc:
Then again if I learn the shortcut keys I wouldn't need the selections at the bottom.
PS: Is there a printable version of the hot-keys, that also updates if we make a change to our own customization, then print that off ?
Its OK I found it, you can export the list as a TXT file
in the customize tools window you can export your binds to a txt file to print.
but also what your looking for, in the default VW config is actually just the first 5 number keys to switch component types, or if your using my configs it is
A Vert
S Edge
D Face
F Object
G Mesh
so those keys should be easy to remember since there all in a line and your basic tools like selection, move, scale, and rotate are all in a other line of keys above those ones. on
Q Selection
W Move
E Scale
R Rotate
my config is more oriented to using key commands and radial menus and i personally have never used the visual tools panel in VW.
Thanks,
I have printed off the hotkey list and will now work on setting them up to my liking
I never put together the orientation of the keys for selections and transformations, now that will make things a lot easier.
even 3ds max does the same thing expect they have the selection types on 1 to 4 instead of asdf.
also a other option for you could be to change selection types maya style by useing a radial menu.
in maya you can just hold rmb on a object to pop up a menu to switch selection types which can easily be re-made in VW if you wanted.
ya when you put your hotkeys together try to think of of what is used most often
i got like i already mentioned the qwer row for transformations and the asdfg row for selection types, and because extrude is one of the most common operations i got it on z so it is the start of the next row than got cut a other common tool beside it on x and because loop-cut is essentially a more advanced version of the cut i put it on shift+x.
you can get a really efficient key setup relative to where you hand is on the keyboard by thinking of it that way. or you could always give keys that start with the same letter of the tool in same cases if that helps you remember, such as putting bevel/chamfer on B or putting a tool like inset on i.
hope this info helps you build your own setup or at least help you with my by knowing the reasoning behind why i have certain things where i do.
If anyone is interested I have put together a spread sheet with the hot-keys, there are about 4 worksheets, The original copy of the TXT file then the other sheets are sorted in various configurations, Alphabetical, population etc:
It can give you the option of updating your hot-keys and printing them off how you like them IE; the actions in alphabetical order.
Any one know how to upload an XLS file?
Sorry to be out of the loop for so long, and to NOT finish the tutorials, but I ran out of my meds, and am in tons of pain and wd etc.. My next dr. appointment is on Wed. so I will try to have the rest of tuts done sometime short after this.
Thanks for understanding,
StOrM3
ya thats a shitty deal, hope you can get your meds and feel better soon mate.
also i wouldn't worry about rushing the tut's with the people in this forum im sure people can just ask questions to figure out what they need to learn or know, cause i know tutorials can be pretty difficult to make to good quality and are very time consuming to make.
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-sep-19-11.rar
Summary of changes:
* Radial menus can be activated by mouse buttons alone.
* Radial menus and streamline tools can share the same set of hotkeys. But they should use different mouse buttons.
* Edit > Options > Radial Menu Options > Sticky Enabled.
* Edit > Cutomize Tools > Subobject Shourtcut Tools > Island Select. The program will select the highlighted subobject and grow the selection from there. Existing selection will serve as boundary to limit the selection growing.
* Misc Tools > Hide Unselected.
* A new column is added into "Object List View" in "SceneExplorer". If the object is hdden, "H" will present. If object's mesh or subobjects hidden, "h" will present.
* Two more basic streamline tools. Edge_DoubleLoop_Cut/Slide, Edge_Loop_Cut/Slide_FixedLength(UseLastValue).
* Another attemp to improve rendering performance by multithreading. ghib, polyxo, 3dtoons, please do a test for this again.
Thanks!
storm3: I feel sorry for your condition. Don't let the tuts be a burden. Take care!!! Chow for now.
I haven't been able to test any of the new features or bug fixes since you started working on the optimization (which is important to get right). Not complaining, just saying
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-sep-20-11.rar
- Faces 12 = 250 fps
- Faces 192 = 250 fps
- Faces 3072 = 250 fps
- Faces 49152 = 62 fps
- Faces 196608 = 12 fps (shaded only = 25 fps)
It won't actually let me subdivide any higher than this.I did the same test with 3 processors and the results were the same.
Turned on 4 processors and the viewport freezing issue appears and with each processor added it gets progressively worse.
p.s. slide tool seems to be a bit more stable now, but I've only tested it on simple geometry. I'll give more feedback on complex geometry.
p.p.s. I'll give your latest a test now. How difficult and fiddly would it be to have the version number on the top of the Window along with VoidWorld 2.4 sep-20-11. I'm finding that I have multiple versions installed now and it would make things a little easier to keep in check. Anyway good job with the latest changes Kun. I have a big list of changes I think Voidworld needs but I'm waiting until you have finished your optimisation. Keep it up mate you're doing a great job.
p.p.p.s. ok sep-20-11 result. Setting any higher than 2 processors completely freezes VW. 2 processors seems to run ok though.
The only issue I had was selecting Vertices in Wireframe mode. I can never figure out how to select Vertices on the other side of the object. I always had to rotate the object and select them.
Glen
Bench Picture
Istonia, I just gave the Island select a test works really well, thanks for getting that in so quickly. I was just wondering though whether the behaviour could be extended to the double click philosophy i.e. select boundary then double LMB click somewhere in the island to grow fully within the island. It might free up a hotkey and also be intuitive. Bear in mind that this should happen only if the same poly/edge/vert is double clicked; to allow the user to still make edge loop/ring/gap selections of geometry.
Also maybe MMB double click to override the boundary and grow the selection to the full mesh.
ghib: I'll see if I can apply double click to island selection. It seems, for vertex and polygon no problem, but for edge it may not possible since double LMB for edge loop and double MMB for edge ring.
passerby: Multi threading is the quickest way, but it just won't work.
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-sep-20a-11.rar
Now with sep-20a-11 there is an improvement with 3 processors (or more) set. It also no longer completely freezes Voidworld.
Now subdivide the cube up to 49152 faces with 6 processors and I get around 54 fps with the occasional viewport freeze (lasts only a second or two).
The freezing seems to occur more when switching between rotate/pan/zoom or on releasing a mouse button then clicking again e.g rotating with LMB, release then press LMB to further rotate.
this screengrab is after a few mins of testing with 6 processors used in VW. You can see that all 8 seem to be used fully and fluctuate wildly.
I'm not the most tech savvy person in the world so maybe one of the other users will be able to give you more info on this.
I think that passerby may be right that you need to look at the method of rendering too.
It seems at 6 cores the performance decreased compare to 62 fps with 2 cores you reported earlier. Can you test with 1 and 4 cores on 49125 faces and let me know the results?
Yeah, I will look into other possible ways. I am now just finding a way to use multi cores to share some computations.
In VW I set the number of processors to 10 and the viewport freezing is even worse.
ok so the test:
2 Processors
Faces 49152 = 60 fps
3 Processors
Faces 49152 = 58 fps
4 Processors
Faces 49152 = 54 fps (with a couple of 1 second freezes)
5 Processors
Faces 49152 = 53 fps
6 Processors
Faces 49152 = 53 fps
7 Processors
Faces 49152 = 52 fps (Screen freezing appearing more often by now)
10 Processors
Faces 49152 = 52 fps (By now the freezing is completely unworkable)
So it seems that the framerate remains relatively consistent but the freezing gets progressively worse.
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-sep-21-11.rar
Summary of changes:
* Island select can be performed by LMB double click in vertex/polygon mode, provided Include selection boolean key(default: Shift) is pressed down.
* Rendering performance should be better off if the following conditions are met:
1. Rendering > Cull None is checked.
2. Rendering > Back Face In Gray is not checked.
Thanks!
ghib: So, there is no gain in framerate by using muliti-core. That's what I want to know. Thanks!
Just trying a scene now and I upped the face count to 434176 and I'm getting a consistent 33 fps using 2 or 10 processors. thumbs up.
I made the changes to the rendering that you suggested (cull none & backface in grey)
*edit* I just experienced a crash when trying to enter poly mode.
'The programe has encountered an error and must shut down'
Anyway it seemed promising for a moment there
Also.. The Island select works really well. Nice one.
oh and to throw some compliments out for you, i think VW has the best selection system out of any app i ever used and the tools are just as smoother as silo now but with a hell of a lot more power behind them, for modeling the only thing that holds me back from using vw for all work is performance.
nice that it is both good on selections and tools since i find with hte experience with maya it's tools are a bitch to work with and with my experience with modo it is excellent tools but it is hard to make complex selections, so nice to have something that does both right.
btw. I think this is bug:
view->Windows-> material window won't work for me.
Thanks for great work istonia.
I feel like vw was powerful like Photoshop but with performance limitation to 512x512 canvas size
Is it possible to reproduce the crash?
passerby: Thanks for the comparison!
Jose: What is the problem with the Material Window? If it is missing, try View > Windows > Reset.
Does the performance you talked about refer to rendering or mesh editing?
guys, I'm back... So expect some more of the tuts to roll off the assembly line in the next few days.. Gotta finish b4 this weekend, since it is my boys birthday, and hunting season opens as well. Thanks to everyone for the kind words, and understanding...
PS: IStonia - Thank you again, and I'm back in black, and I've got some info and ideas about how to help out with rendering etc... Your using C# correct.. I think that the auto garbage collection is not firing enough, and the more cores you enable, just lets the app, fill up the temp store / etc.. with garbage handles etc.. more cores = more hanging refs / un-reclaimed system resources, until Visual C# decides to fire the auto garbage collector.. Ummm, are you using 2008 or 2010?? and the 64bit tools / libs or just the default x86 32bit targets? Also, as far as rendering speed, this should be handled by the videocard cpu not system CPU unless your using a Newer engine such as DX10 / DX11 = tweening & tessellation and tons more poly's possible. DX9 - More tricks are needed for higher poly counts.. umm are you making use of Cuda in the nVidia library? Because this is how 3DCoat achieves much higher poly counts, this with some voxel switching, and slight of hand.. At least with some nVidia cards Cuda is necessary for higher performance, and 3dcoat even mentions if you have a specific level of card you can get more perfornance from opengl as the renderer instead of DX.. Hey, how bout this, add in an option to switch between either openGL / DX, of course requiring an app restart, and include an openGL renderer.. This should not be too hard to do.. I just had a lightbulb go off over my head when I was saying this about the multiple renderers meaning openGL / DX9... 64bit app appears to be the way to go to squeeze the most out of the default system rendering, but DX10 and up have neat trix like Bloom, references etc.. DX11 = Best rendering ever!!! So Real / So Fast = dynamic tessellation which ups the poly count on objects adding tons of detail, with next to no speed loss, and can be turned on and off like a light switch..
IStonia, sorry to hit you with all of this at once, but I told you when I'm out of pain my brain suddenly starts working on overdrive again.. Told you I was a pretty good programmer too.. ;')
If you want to talk more about this, or bounce ideas around let me know.. also what libs your using ?? Maybe suggest a few others..
Alrighty, IStonia, I hope I helped you have another one of those aha! Moments!!!.. ehehehe
DX / OpenGL rendering selection.. also, 64bit Multi-threaded app optional version.. see 3dcoat also about number of threads per CPU in the options 64bit Cuda enabled version..
nVidia libs are good!!! Especially using the apex libs..
K.. done with the run-on now..
Hit me back..
Is there anything in the newest release that I may want to include in the next tutorial IStonia??!!??
Thanks 4 everything,
StOrM3's Back -- YEA!!! heheheeh