philem: Thanks for discovering the bug! If you combine the two objects into one first, the welding should work.
G'day IStonia
That worked, the only hiccup (for others) is that once you combine the objects it breaks the "Instance", so if you are using the "Instance" option to create identical objects, you need to make sure all of the modelling is done before they are welded.
Philem: Good point! I will add a 'Add Mesh' feature so you can copy and add mesh from other objects. That way instance can stay.
Thanks!
memag: I can't find any possible reason why the Enter not working. Are you sure you didn't type in a name which is used by another material? When you hit Enter, what happened? does the name field lose foucus(it should)? and what other things happen you can notice.
Edit: Philem, I don't have to make another feature. The Boolean tool in mesh mode can do that.
I'm sure I didn't name two materials the same name.
When I hit enter I hear "pling!" (default beep) windows sound.
I can click in the viewport and name will change, but for some reason the cursor
keeps blinking in the name field and refuses to propagate the change with "enter".
Group and object renaming work as expected.
Can you rename the material without these issues?
Summary of changes:
* Retopo drawing tool is improved base on memag's new suggestion. For detail, Help > Contents > Modeling > Edge Section > Retopo > Polygon Creation Tools > By Creating From Side Edges.
* Modify > Vertex Commands n Tools > Weld Nearest. It does the same thing as vertex visual 'Weld' tool when threshold is set to Maximum value.
* View > Windows > Material Library Window. You need to View > Windows > Reset to bring it up.
* A new streamline tool option. Edit > Customize StreamLine Tools > Options > Allow tapped to stay live. The tool will stay live after its hotkey is released if its hotkey is pressed then released without any action performed. It can be usefull for some tools like the 'Cut' tool which needs to stay longer or easy view navigation during the operation. There are three ways to exit, 1. Hit Escape key. 2. Press down its hotkey, any mouse click, release its hotkey. 3. Activate another streamline tool.
Thanks!
Rename works.
Retopo is great. Can it be activated by a hotkey, no matter of what component mode I'm in? I can only activate it when in edge mode.
Thanks istonia!
Is it possible to create a polygon in an empty scene I cant seem to do this, if this not currently possible could you please think about including this function?
Philem: Good point! I will add a 'Add Mesh' feature so you can copy and add mesh from other objects. That way instance can stay.
Thanks!
memag: I can't find any possible reason why the Enter not working. Are you sure you didn't type in a name which is used by another material? When you hit Enter, what happened? does the name field lose foucus(it should)? and what other things happen you can notice.
Edit: Philem, I don't have to make another feature. The Boolean tool in mesh mode can do that.
Hey IStonia
I tried the Boolean option to "Add" the 2 objects together (1 - the main object, 2 - the instanced object) they won't join while they are instanced, once I "deinstanced" them they "added" together.
Summary of changes:
* A bug fixed. Vertex weld tool works in NMB.
* Retopo tool can be opened in any mode. Misc Tools > Retopo. Also available in main radial menu.
* Polygons can be created from empty scene or when there is no object selected in the scene.
* Instance can be used as meshB in boolean operations.
Thanks!
memag: I am expecting user to populate the material library himself. In Scene Explorer, select a material, hit the Add to Material Library button, or in the Material Library window hit the Add from Scent button.
passerby: I have some work on radial menu. After that I will look into the performance again, maybe next week. But please notice, there are thousands of places to modify and I don't know how long it will take and how good it can get.
thinking it may make more sense to remove all hte material stuff from the scene explorer and add it to the material library window, and rename it to materials.
would make a lot more sense to keep that all in one unified place.
Quick request: Could you please make the "Relax/NormalMove Vertex" also work in Edge and Face modes? But, please make it act as though it's still working on the verts level? For example, you know how soft-select works on the vert level, even when in other modes? Like that, but with Relax. Relax is a tool I use a TON, but it slows me down when I have to switch to vert mode to use it.
I apologize, I still haven't had a chance to test those two special builds you sent me, I'm hoping to get to them soon.
Oooh, you read my mind memag! I learned about that "Set relax to the ctrl + shift + MM roll" trick from Glen Southern (and undo to the ctrl + shift + MM reverse). Now I can't live without it! Thanks for the tip!
One more thing: Is there any way to set a hotkey to scroll through shading options PER OBJECT (default Silo hotkey is ctrl + alt + MMroll)? I can see the "Cycle Shading" under Rendering, but that cycles the whole scene. I'm wanting to do it per object without having to set a hotkey per shading type.
That's exactly how I set up Silo, but in VW I have vertex "smooth vertex normal",
edge "loop tidy mid position" and poly "turn quad flow" instead of "undo".
I didn't find any individual shading shortcuts except "object renderings" in radial menu.
I made a few materials I'd like to share with you.
I went and gave them exotic names, so forgive me if that bothers you.
They look better on serious geometry, not so much on boring spheres.
Hope you like them!
Istonia, you can include them in your future releases if you want.
Also, I noticed the scroll on the side of material display is not working.
Here are the material previews and the download link (at the bottom) to the preset file, which you'll need to import from the Material library.
IStonia, retopo tools works very good now.
About speed improvements. I'm not sure about your method of drawing windows, but in blender there is method: ' triple buffer' and this give big speed boost in modeling speed and vieport responsiveness.
I'm not sure if it is any help in case of VoidWorld but I wanted to mention this.
iStonia, I guess you are right. But vieport navigation (rotation/panning) lags - are those lags really mesh building problems?
Mesh building slowness, is is about lack of BVH mesh structure or something?
Hi Istonia,
thank you for your continuous updates! May I suggest another round of making Tools functionality more universal? So that they work with all Subobject-Selections which make sense and also independent of Subdivision-Level.
It is a great enhancement that Bridge now works with Faces too.
But it was equally cool if we also could use the Align-Tool with Objects, Faces and Edges...If we could calculate Symmetry also from Edges and Faces, if we could Group not only Faces but also Edges and Vertices. The list could go on.
I am convinced the whole Application would profit enormously if one looked at each and any Tool and tried to make it more universal.
One Hotkey, one Menu Entry, one Workflow to remember.
If ever possible Tools should also work independent of the Subdivision-Level.
The Shell Command is an example. You will not believe how long it took me to understand that it only works on the Base-Mesh! I thought it was broken...
On another note - I would like to repeat the wish for an Undo-Stack for Selections.
I understand that you want keep things simple by leaving selections in the common Undo Stack. I however see a lot of potential in being able to go back in selection while undoing nothing else.
With a separate Selection Undo Stack one doesn't have to create a group for items which one plans to reselect after some curter Modeling steps. One just goes
back some steps in History. Currently not possible without Undoing everything else too. I know that one can store Sub-Object selections - but not having to think about this at at all and being able to step backwards if need be is even more convenient imo.
On another note - I would like to repeat the wish for an Undo-Stack for Selections.
+1 for this feature.
As I've already tried to make a case for this in my first videoFeedback. After using Silo that has independent HistoryStack for Commands and Selections, I find it cumbersome to work in appz that function in a standard way with one stack. For the most part when I go for undo it's a command I want to undo not a selection. It's just way cleaner to have them independent. I am aware that this is a very weird feature for anyone that has not used Silo as I believe that is the only app with such UndoStack, but give it a consideration before you pull the trigger
And another +1 for polyxo's suggestion for 'making Tools functionality more universal'. Kun, with all the goodness VW has and the strive to make things more accessible I find it's still way more cluttered than Silo. Cut down on menu items, commands, options, hotkeys ... but keep functionality. And I understand you're doing the app on the fly, you're doing a great job with it, but there will have to come a time to give attention to this, this is a major thing. All in it's due time
Here's a text version:
- After a command is executed Manipulator Should not become visible if it was hidden
- Partial Ring Select
This should not be an independent command, it should have the same behavior as loopSelect.
- Extrude Faces, with all the options available, none do what is expected.
- Command Access Consistency:
VisualTools Window > Options
Edit > Customize Tools
Edit > Customize Streamline Tools
(and also future work on) Edit > Customize Radial Menus
Should all access same commands/tools, commands/tool options. And the last three should use the same type of a list when searching for commands/tools to bind. I personally prefer the type of list you have in Customize StreamlineTools>SET list (alphabetical list makes it's easier to find)
- Edit > Options > Using Shoulder Style Extrusion
Improving tool behavior: ExtrudeScale; Use mouse gesture to determine + or -
And removing it from Edit>Options menu
-RadialMenus are a great feature. It's usefull as is, but could be much more user friendly. I'll try to illustrate some suggestions next.
For me personally RadialMenus are about quantity+quality. Accessing several functions very fast with a single hotkey. As such I would mostly use them as a singleLevel menu. For some screenDrawing options and other options I would go for TreeMenu with more than one level.
'Return to Main' button on top should not be baked into the menus. There's no use for it in singleLevel menus.
- It is important to be able to assign any existing command/tool to a radialMenu. (As mentioned before, consistency ... all Command/Tool lists should be the same)
- Radials should be flexible and easy to create.
- If you use the radials as singleLevel menus, this means you end up with several menus/hotkeys. I like that you had made the current RadialMenus to have an option to 'RightClick to Stay'. The hotkeys for radials should act as stickeyKeys. If a key is tapped, the radial pops up and stays waiting for a click (execute or break). If the key is pressed and held, the radial pops and the highlighted command is executed on key release (RMB for break).
- There are 2 types of radialMenu buttons:
MenuButton: this button takes you to the next menuLevel on mouseOver
ItemButton: this button waits for click or release (depending onradialMenu mode) to execute.
In the current radialMenu example 'ModelingMain' CommonTools would be MenuButton, SaveIncremental would be ItemButton.
This would theoretically allow more than 2 level menus. I don't know how useful this would be and if it's feasible to spend time coding it if it takes a lot of resources. 2level menus should be enough in most cases.
Further suggestions and examples.
Matt Ebb's take on RadialMenus in Blender. There is some good visual info in here as well as a good demoVid. http://mke3.net/weblog/radiation/
- Currently VW radials are 8-Pies menus. It should allow for 4-Pie menus, as in "Matt Ebb's demoVid" 1:00 mark, this would allow for very quick access. In this blender implementation, there are 2-Pie, 4-Pie and 8-pie menus. In a perfect world you should be able to have 5-Pie (n-Pie) menus. The 'influence area' as well as the buttonPlacement of an N-Pie menu would be 360/n of a Pie.
I hope some of this makes sense. If you like some of these ideas let me know, I'd be glad to help with how to make the customization RadialMenus more user friendly.
Jose: The rendering lags, but compare to that, mesh building is much worse.
polyxo & flat-D: Thanks for the new suggestions! I need time to digest them.
Throneinc: Can you provide more detail about the crash? It never happen to me. What happened after the crashing? Do you receive any error information? Thanks!
I would also like to add a +1 to the selection stack idea. I used to hate it in Silo when I wasn't used to it, but now that I've embraced it, I miss it when a program doesn't have it (like all programs besides Silo).
Also, I believe Flat-D made a suggestion a while back about leaving the camera rotation pivot where it last was during selection/sub-object mode? (Instead of defaulting back to the world coordinates like it does currently). I would like to bump that suggestion and add a +1 as well. It's quite jarring when I am working close up on an ear let's say, then exit poly sub-object mode, swing my camera, and it goes spinning around 0,0 instead of the ear I was working on.
And a big thank you for adding Cycle Shading per object! I'm still amazed by how quickly you implement these things. I think I found a bug with it though. If I have a subdivided cube, and I start cycling through vis-modes, it seems like as it switches, it's not getting rid of the previous mode, so it ends up bugging out, and drawing the interior triangles (not polys) as rendered wireframes (I can send you a screenshot if you can't reproduce it). I hope it's not a video card thing again. Is anyone else getting this problem?
Another addition... I would like to see a faceted render mode. Currently the only way I can see my model faceted, is if I make all of the edges hard. I use the faceted mode to dial in my low-res model, it really reveals how the light falls onto the planes of the object. I'm not sure you could have this AND support Hard/Soft edges too. Silo chose not to support that Hard/Soft edges, and it's one of the largest complaints of their users.
For your reference, Silo Cycles through the rendering modes as follows:
1 ) Faceted
2 ) Faceted Wire
3 ) Smooth
4 ) Smooth Wire
5 ) Default Material Smoothed
6 ) Default Material Smoothed Wire
7 ) Transparent
8 ) Transparent Wire
9 ) Wire Only
I would like to see something similar in VW, but I think Silo has too long of a list to cycle through. I would like to cycle through all of the base modes, but then be able to toggle wire on and off in any of the modes, anytime, and it stays that way as I cycle through the base modes until I toggle it differently. So then VW would look more like this:
1 ) Faceted
2 ) Smooth
3 ) Default Material (no textures)
4 ) Transparent
5 ) Wire Only <- I personally never use this mode
Wire-frame Display Suggestion: I would like the wire to be drawn a little more subtle on the object while in sub-object mode. Right now it's really bright and obtrusive. I don't mind it being bright wile the whole object is selected. I like that you can see it well, but I also like to preview my underlying model while working. Currently, the bright wire is distracting, even if I change it to black. I would like to see either the ability to change the default color while in sub-obj mode, or somehow make the ability to adjust it's transparency (which is preferred).
Maybe the wire toggle could have three modes: Transparent (for previewing model), Bright (so you can see it in dark places like armpits), and off.
And lastly (I promise), I found one more display bug. While in solid display mode (no wire-frame) if I select edges, I can't see them selected. I can see them preview, but not afterwards, even though they are indeed selected. I would like to see the red selected edges in solid mode if possible.
I hope that isn't too overwhelming. I'd like to hear if other users feel the same.
Flat-D & Others, Please Give IStonia some breathing room... He is Doing this By Himself, with little help from some of us on different things related to the project.. but still, I'm not sure if you grasp the concept of how much coding a project of this size is ??!!?? I Do... Really.. That's why it is better to help by helping to narrow down bugs etc.. but if the interface is working correctly, and the fact that almost everything is customizable should be more than sufficient for you guys to create a custom setup to work the way that you think would be the most efficient for your workflow.. but, I for one, am quite happy with the menu's, shortcut key setup, radial menus and streamline tools.. Now I turn off the help for the streamline menu, because I no longer need the refresher, and it just blocks part of my model, and is more of an irritant than a problem that needs to be fixed... If some of the menus aren't working for you, change them, or disable them altogether if you don't need that item for your workflow.. Feature set, is one of the strongest that I have played around with, and I have used alot of apps, and written some too. My point is just that, we need to give more approval & kudos for what an awesome app it is, and be willing to pitch in and create cusomized setups for these other types of setups similar to aka Silo / Maya setups, maybe make an alternate Silo Setup #2 or something.. and in this you guys can try out your own setups and see how they work, before having Kun make major changes to the interface setup currently..
Thanks for listening, I didn't mean to upset anyone, but someone needs to help take up for IStonia on this, as he can begin to get overwhelmed very easily.. and I would hate to see the program lose interest because of complexity issues in the code, or because he can just no longer handle it by himself..
I look forward to future development.
I would love to see better performance(SubD), possibly simplified UI and unified tools.
So far Istonia is doing a fantastic job at keeping it all bay at astonishing pace,
and I don't think it a problem to suggest an improvement or two now and then.
Having professional (and hobby!) modelers making corrections and tossing ideas is noting bad for the software.
I think it's healthy and desirable to have the best possible poly modeler on the market, for all of us.
Flat-D & Others, Please Give IStonia some breathing room... He is Doing this By Himself, with little help from some of us on different things related to the project.. but still, I'm not sure if you grasp the concept of how much coding a project of this size is ??!!?? I Do... Really.. That's why it is better to help by helping to narrow down bugs etc.. but if the interface is working correctly, and the fact that almost everything is customizable should be more than sufficient for you guys to create a custom setup to work the way that you think would be the most efficient for your workflow.
storm3, I would prefer if Kun said this himself. It seems that he is very well capable to cope with the complexity the program has reached.
In fact he still encourages critical feedback on his Program and is very open for refinedment-requests. I very much appreciate his work and am amazed by his development-speed. It admirable how far he got in such short time!
Still: In my perception Voidworld is not yet in a state which just required a bit of Cleanup here and there and Bugfixing and then can get released. The existing SubD-programs are too strong and refined.
Voidworld as a Standalone Modeler should be at least as elegant and slim as Silo before one should even try entering the commercial market. In the current state if I had 100$ to spend I honestly would again purchase Silo. This although its further development is more than questionable.
My recent Feedback was based on experiences I made when I recently tried to do a complete Hard-Surface-Project in Voidworld.
Frankly, at some early point I simply had to go back to Silo. I still find editing far more straightforward here!
Of course I am aware of the fabulous Customization options offered in Voidworld. But none of them allow for what I discussed in my recent postings. Creating a separate Selection History stack should be relatively easy. I believe this is more of a philosophical question than a work-challenge.
Restricting functionalities to just one Sub-Object Type although they could get accessed equally well in in other modes is very questionable. Having some Tools work both on Basemeshes and Subdivided meshes and some not is a source of errors. One should at least give aStatusbar Printout about this Limitation ("This Tool does not work with Subdivision applied").
Please note that I only proposed a careful revision of existing Functionality, not anything new. I actually would like Voidworld to stay/get as slim as somehow thinkable. I don't want anything else to take place but Modeling and would consider a mistake to further add Animation, Rendering and all sorts of other stuff. If it was me even UV-Mapping could get left out. We all have other packages we use downstream which do this tremendously well. Instead I would suggest making existing Live Connections with Sculpting Apps better (3DCoat) and establish a new one (Zbrush).
We potential customers are in a comfortable situation: We get a neat new toy every other week - but we are not forced to rely on it. All of us have other SubD-Apps, no? But would we all buy it? What would happen when the Demo expired?
What I believe would help Kun to fine-tune his App was if some Hardcore-Modelers really tried doing something reasonably complex from Start to Finish with Voidworld. Not just download every other Release and toy with it for an Hour or so. Just trying out the new features doesn't reveal what is still missing in the overall work-experience. As Kun is no Modeler himself I often also think it was fabulous if some seasoned Silo User in New Zealand gave Kun an extended Side by Side Demo. What really makes the difference is often hard to capture in Screen-Recordings.
What would also help to attract more than some dozens of Nerds around the world who take part in this discussion was creating some cool Workflow Videos
and to post them on Youtube. Also making the many readers at CGTalk aware of VW would not hurt at some point.
As Kun is no Modeler himself I often also think it was fabulous if some seasoned Silo User in New Zealand gave Kun an extended Side by Side Demo. What really makes the difference is often hard to capture in Screen-Recordings.
Isn't Bay Raitt in New Zealand? He was an adequate choice I believe
3dtoons:
"leaving the camera rotation pivot where it last was ...". Please check this, View > View Rotation Pivot Style > Last Selection Center (NoSelection).
"and drawing the interior triangles ..." This is not a bug. It is one of the available options.
"I would like to see a faceted render mode". Could be this? Rendering > Toggle Hard/Soft Edges.
"I would like the wire to be drawn a little more subtle ". Do you mean the edge color? It can be switch between White and back. Rendering > Toggle Edge Color. I will make it customizable at some stage. It also can be on/off. There is a button bottom viewport can do that. You can also do it from the viewport contex menu, just click the viewtype label top-right viewport. Also from a shortcut.
"And lastly (I promise), I found one more display bug. While in solid display mode (no wire-frame) if I select edges, I can't see them selected. I can see them preview, but not afterwards, even though they are indeed selected. I would like to see the red selected edges in solid mode if possible." Not sure this. Please provide a pic.
Can you provide pics each for "Faceted", "Smooth", "Default Material (no textures)", "Transparent", "Wire Only". So I won't understand in the wrong way.
Throneinc: I couldn't down load the file from the link. Can you send it to info@digitalfossils.com instead? Thanks!
storm3: Thanks for joining me on the defence. But, they won. It's been like that all the time and I have got used to it.
polyxo: Thanks for the full-heartedly words! I guess if Silo still in development, you may say the same thing to them. Things can never be perfect, but can be better (or worse).
You would buy silo ??? Are you kidding me? I can't even use it for 30 Minutes straight without it crashing out horribly.. So, NO I wouldn't buy it, let alone use it anymore for any serious modeling work.. I would sooner use VW, because imho it is more than capable of working on and completing a model from start to finish, and at the end of the day, isn't this what a program like this is intended to do?? Silo has a sucky interface default, and the customized ones, at least all the ones I have tried all have something wrong with them, such as items without grafx showing up, or out of date functions linked to buttons that are no longer in the program.. Also, something small like saving incrementally in silo can cause crashes and caused me to lose quite a bit of work because they couldn't do something simple like range checking on the max number 100 the default, and padding of 00, so when you reach number 99 and hit save incrementally again, woopsy crash, no warning, no chance to save it manually yourself or anything, I hardly think this is the mark of a stable / reliable / or mature program.. Now granted I loved silo when I first got it, my website even says so, but lack of updates, and further bugs introduced with updates, has left me scrambling for something else, anything, I mean it ought to say something when you can't even get them to allow it to work with 3dcoat applinks, and this is a MAJOR thing, it smooths out the workflow in a game character creation, especially when applinks also works with messiahpro, so I can make a complete game character from start to finish in VoidWorld -> 3DCoat -> MessiahPro -> 3DCoat done... This means alot..
OK, that's it, I'm done, and putting away my soap box now, but you missed the point, if you are willing to learn the hotkeys, and menu items, you CAN make a complete model from start to finish in Voidworld, I've done it! and guess what, NO CRASH! No Cussing, etc..
OK, I'm done, IStonia, Sorry I didn't mean to start a fight, I just want people to help themselves some instead of asking for every little UI candy thing, you already made VW very user configurable for a reason, and yet they don't want to take advantage of it..
BTW: IStonia, Part 2 of the tutorial is coming out today, the family is away, and I can finally get some record time.. So look for that later on today.. Thanks IStonia...
I somehow agree with storm3. Maintaining a good balance of features and stability is not easy. This program was used to be simple, and then people start requesting and features get added. I guess that's what happened with most of the 3d apps. And in the end people complain coz its bloated.
I'd rather for now vote for the program to stop adding feature unless its crucial, while fixing bugs and make the program solid so it can be a commercial product soon.
polyxo: Thanks for the full-heartedly words! I guess if Silo still in development, you may say the same thing to them. Things can never be perfect, but can be better (or worse).
Good that you got my words right, I did not intent to criticize you. It is just normal that after a phase of adding a lot of functionality quite an amount of streamlining is needed.
This here seems to be a place where a lot of long time Silo Users gather. To me it just seemed clever to meet their Preferences.
You have already delivered in one Area - the Customizability. But there's also parts of Silo's Beauty which can't be accessed through editing Workspaces and Shortcuts alone also if some people seem to differ here.
That's the concentration of Tools I brought up which also took the Silo-Makers long time to establish.
Generally I find that through the overwhelming Customizability a considerable Complexity has arisen! I find the division between normal and streamline tools difficult to grasp and intimidating for new users, even if one can alway go back to default. As always when exposing so much Customizing to users there's also great options to create conflicting functionality or to actually switch desired Functions off without knowing.
Just assign a Navigation function to RMB. You'll then lose the Radial-Menu. You of course have thought of this and provide alternative ways to trigger this Menu. But one has to think of that, the Program doesn't tell.
I think one can consider me an experienced 3D-Program user: Still I am kind of hesitant to move Hotkeys from one place to another. Reason being: I fear to lose some Functionality by not hooking things up again correctly as there's even two places where one sets Hotkeys.
The slim way to assign Hotkeys through pressing "End" does not seem to work here... A Search function in the Customize Dialogs would help a lot for starters but I believe that in the End only one very well structured area where program-wide Hotkeys get set should remain.
You would buy silo ??? Are you kidding me? I can't even use it for 30 Minutes straight without it crashing out horribly..
I was not recommending anyone to buy Silo, I basically wanted to make a point.
Silo's legendary lack of Program stability on certain hardware does not take away from the Beauty in its underlying logic.
Yo are complaining about errors in Custom GUI's. That's no Nevercenters fault. These Interfaces were created by Users. I've never tried those. One can run Silo just fine without any GUI showing apart from the Viewport.
All Editors then simply pop up at mouse-point.
Polyxo: One of the reasons that I have spent so much time giving feedback to Kun is that he really listens to (and tries to understand) the users of this thread. I was one of the 1st to ask for the streamline tools to be more exposed to us and I would hate to see that taken away.
The state of Voidworld at the moment is as if you had taken Max, Maya, SI, Silo, Modo; put them on a table and smashed them to smithereens with a big hammer. We have most of the parts laid bare in front of us we just have to help Kun put it back together in the most streamlined way possible. He always said that the function comes 1st and UI (or lack of) will come next.
To be honest I press F5 at the beginning of my modelling exercises and have no UI at all. It's completely comfortable and feels just like it did when I used Silo back in the day (minus the pain)
I want to say a huge congratulations to Kun for being so diligent with this app so far and for dealing with all the requests and bug reports so professionally. All the best mate, you're brilliant.
and now for something completely different...
*BUGS/SUGGESTIONS*
pressing 'q' - doesn't always complete the primitive creation. (only seems to work consistently with cubes.
Dynamic clipping plane a problem - I find this quite distracting actually as I work. I can understand why it might be a good idea but it became a real nuisance recently when I had reference plates in the scene and they kept getting clipped out. Maybe give the option to toggle it on/off & set manually clipping planes near and far.
More control over incremental save padding - believe it or not I sometimes go into the hundreds. e.g. mi24Hind_001_blocking.vws (_blocking is added by me manually occasinally as tags for progress)
Viewport hotkeys should work without having to select/activate a viewport. Similar to tapping space while hovering over. e.g. Hotkey for toggle grid doesn't work unless you have the viewport selected.
I'd like to see a fix to the Streamline: 'slide selection' tool. I constantly get undesirable edge sliding. I understand that you might want to slide geometry along different edges or faces based on initial mouse direction so maybe have different settings based on vert or edge selection. Here is an illustration.
Replies
G'day IStonia
That worked, the only hiccup (for others) is that once you combine the objects it breaks the "Instance", so if you are using the "Instance" option to create identical objects, you need to make sure all of the modelling is done before they are welded.
Thanks!
memag: I can't find any possible reason why the Enter not working. Are you sure you didn't type in a name which is used by another material? When you hit Enter, what happened? does the name field lose foucus(it should)? and what other things happen you can notice.
Edit: Philem, I don't have to make another feature. The Boolean tool in mesh mode can do that.
When I hit enter I hear "pling!" (default beep) windows sound.
I can click in the viewport and name will change, but for some reason the cursor
keeps blinking in the name field and refuses to propagate the change with "enter".
Group and object renaming work as expected.
Can you rename the material without these issues?
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-aug-23-11.rar
Summary of changes:
* Retopo drawing tool is improved base on memag's new suggestion. For detail, Help > Contents > Modeling > Edge Section > Retopo > Polygon Creation Tools > By Creating From Side Edges.
* Modify > Vertex Commands n Tools > Weld Nearest. It does the same thing as vertex visual 'Weld' tool when threshold is set to Maximum value.
* View > Windows > Material Library Window. You need to View > Windows > Reset to bring it up.
* A new streamline tool option. Edit > Customize StreamLine Tools > Options > Allow tapped to stay live. The tool will stay live after its hotkey is released if its hotkey is pressed then released without any action performed. It can be usefull for some tools like the 'Cut' tool which needs to stay longer or easy view navigation during the operation. There are three ways to exit, 1. Hit Escape key. 2. Press down its hotkey, any mouse click, release its hotkey. 3. Activate another streamline tool.
Thanks!
memag: Can you check the rename Enter again?
Retopo is great. Can it be activated by a hotkey, no matter of what component mode I'm in? I can only activate it when in edge mode.
Thanks istonia!
edit- Can't see any materials in the library.
Thank you for the update.
*BUG*
Weld Vertex
NMB doesn't seem to be working at the moment with this tool. (I checked that NMB action enabled is checked) LMB works fine.
Hey IStonia
I tried the Boolean option to "Add" the 2 objects together (1 - the main object, 2 - the instanced object) they won't join while they are instanced, once I "deinstanced" them they "added" together.
been trying to do some hard surface subd modeling with it for the last 2 weeks and things are choking badley when i get around 500k after subdivision.
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-aug-24-11.rar
Summary of changes:
* A bug fixed. Vertex weld tool works in NMB.
* Retopo tool can be opened in any mode. Misc Tools > Retopo. Also available in main radial menu.
* Polygons can be created from empty scene or when there is no object selected in the scene.
* Instance can be used as meshB in boolean operations.
Thanks!
memag: I am expecting user to populate the material library himself. In Scene Explorer, select a material, hit the Add to Material Library button, or in the Material Library window hit the Add from Scent button.
passerby: I have some work on radial menu. After that I will look into the performance again, maybe next week. But please notice, there are thousands of places to modify and I don't know how long it will take and how good it can get.
Yes of course, I just couldn't see anything in the library, not the buttons, nor the materials. It's working now for some reason.
Thanks for the update!
would make a lot more sense to keep that all in one unified place.
I apologize, I still haven't had a chance to test those two special builds you sent me, I'm hoping to get to them soon.
Thanks!
-ShaneO
You can try "relax selection" in sub object shortcut tools.
It works in any mode. You can put it on mouse wheel as well.
One more thing: Is there any way to set a hotkey to scroll through shading options PER OBJECT (default Silo hotkey is ctrl + alt + MMroll)? I can see the "Cycle Shading" under Rendering, but that cycles the whole scene. I'm wanting to do it per object without having to set a hotkey per shading type.
Thanks again,
-ShaneO
edge "loop tidy mid position" and poly "turn quad flow" instead of "undo".
I didn't find any individual shading shortcuts except "object renderings" in radial menu.
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-aug-25-11.rar
Summary of changes:
* Rendering > Cycle Individual Object Shading.
* View > Windows > Materials Window. You need to do View > Windows > Reset.
Thanks!
I made a few materials I'd like to share with you.
I went and gave them exotic names, so forgive me if that bothers you.
They look better on serious geometry, not so much on boring spheres.
Hope you like them!
Istonia, you can include them in your future releases if you want.
Also, I noticed the scroll on the side of material display is not working.
Here are the material previews and the download link (at the bottom) to the preset file, which you'll need to import from the Material library.
Download Mat.library presets
"Green" material has some transparency to it, so you can adjust it if it's not working out for you.
Thanks.
Thanks from me also, have brought them in and been having a play.
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/VoidWorld-aug-25a-11.rar
Summary of changes:
* Material scroll problem fixed.
* memag's material library is added into preset files.
Thanks!
https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=4f3a8bf40f6adf6c&resid=4F3A8BF40F6ADF6C!340
About speed improvements. I'm not sure about your method of drawing windows, but in blender there is method:
' triple buffer' and this give big speed boost in modeling speed and vieport responsiveness.
I'm not sure if it is any help in case of VoidWorld but I wanted to mention this.
Thanks 3dnut,
I have downloaded and opened it in VW. I then tried to texture it with a fur jpg I downloaded, but at the moment it is turning out a disaster
You're welcome ,the stag needs uv mapping, I'm trying to bone it atm.
Thanks
Jose: Thanks for the imformation! Currently the main problem is not rendering, it is mesh building takes too long.
Mesh building slowness, is is about lack of BVH mesh structure or something?
thank you for your continuous updates! May I suggest another round of making Tools functionality more universal? So that they work with all Subobject-Selections which make sense and also independent of Subdivision-Level.
It is a great enhancement that Bridge now works with Faces too.
But it was equally cool if we also could use the Align-Tool with Objects, Faces and Edges...If we could calculate Symmetry also from Edges and Faces, if we could Group not only Faces but also Edges and Vertices. The list could go on.
I am convinced the whole Application would profit enormously if one looked at each and any Tool and tried to make it more universal.
One Hotkey, one Menu Entry, one Workflow to remember.
If ever possible Tools should also work independent of the Subdivision-Level.
The Shell Command is an example. You will not believe how long it took me to understand that it only works on the Base-Mesh! I thought it was broken...
I understand that you want keep things simple by leaving selections in the common Undo Stack. I however see a lot of potential in being able to go back in selection while undoing nothing else.
With a separate Selection Undo Stack one doesn't have to create a group for items which one plans to reselect after some curter Modeling steps. One just goes
back some steps in History. Currently not possible without Undoing everything else too. I know that one can store Sub-Object selections - but not having to think about this at at all and being able to step backwards if need be is even more convenient imo.
Oh great
As I've already tried to make a case for this in my first videoFeedback. After using Silo that has independent HistoryStack for Commands and Selections, I find it cumbersome to work in appz that function in a standard way with one stack. For the most part when I go for undo it's a command I want to undo not a selection. It's just way cleaner to have them independent. I am aware that this is a very weird feature for anyone that has not used Silo as I believe that is the only app with such UndoStack, but give it a consideration before you pull the trigger
And another +1 for polyxo's suggestion for 'making Tools functionality more universal'. Kun, with all the goodness VW has and the strive to make things more accessible I find it's still way more cluttered than Silo. Cut down on menu items, commands, options, hotkeys ... but keep functionality. And I understand you're doing the app on the fly, you're doing a great job with it, but there will have to come a time to give attention to this, this is a major thing. All in it's due time
I made a vid with a couple of suggestions.
VideoFeedback (50MB)
Here's a text version:
- After a command is executed Manipulator Should not become visible if it was hidden
- Partial Ring Select
This should not be an independent command, it should have the same behavior as loopSelect.
- Extrude Faces, with all the options available, none do what is expected.
- Command Access Consistency:
VisualTools Window > Options
Edit > Customize Tools
Edit > Customize Streamline Tools
(and also future work on) Edit > Customize Radial Menus
Should all access same commands/tools, commands/tool options. And the last three should use the same type of a list when searching for commands/tools to bind. I personally prefer the type of list you have in Customize StreamlineTools>SET list (alphabetical list makes it's easier to find)
- Edit > Options > Using Shoulder Style Extrusion
Improving tool behavior: ExtrudeScale; Use mouse gesture to determine + or -
And removing it from Edit>Options menu
-RadialMenus are a great feature. It's usefull as is, but could be much more user friendly. I'll try to illustrate some suggestions next.
THANKS for all your hard work
For me personally RadialMenus are about quantity+quality. Accessing several functions very fast with a single hotkey. As such I would mostly use them as a singleLevel menu. For some screenDrawing options and other options I would go for TreeMenu with more than one level.
'Return to Main' button on top should not be baked into the menus. There's no use for it in singleLevel menus.
- It is important to be able to assign any existing command/tool to a radialMenu. (As mentioned before, consistency ... all Command/Tool lists should be the same)
- Radials should be flexible and easy to create.
- If you use the radials as singleLevel menus, this means you end up with several menus/hotkeys. I like that you had made the current RadialMenus to have an option to 'RightClick to Stay'. The hotkeys for radials should act as stickeyKeys. If a key is tapped, the radial pops up and stays waiting for a click (execute or break). If the key is pressed and held, the radial pops and the highlighted command is executed on key release (RMB for break).
- There are 2 types of radialMenu buttons:
MenuButton: this button takes you to the next menuLevel on mouseOver
ItemButton: this button waits for click or release (depending onradialMenu mode) to execute.
In the current radialMenu example 'ModelingMain' CommonTools would be MenuButton, SaveIncremental would be ItemButton.
This would theoretically allow more than 2 level menus. I don't know how useful this would be and if it's feasible to spend time coding it if it takes a lot of resources. 2level menus should be enough in most cases.
Further suggestions and examples.
Matt Ebb's take on RadialMenus in Blender. There is some good visual info in here as well as a good demoVid.
http://mke3.net/weblog/radiation/
- Currently VW radials are 8-Pies menus. It should allow for 4-Pie menus, as in "Matt Ebb's demoVid" 1:00 mark, this would allow for very quick access. In this blender implementation, there are 2-Pie, 4-Pie and 8-pie menus. In a perfect world you should be able to have 5-Pie (n-Pie) menus. The 'influence area' as well as the buttonPlacement of an N-Pie menu would be 360/n of a Pie.
Modo's take on PieMenus. Usability OK, customization cumbersome in my opinion.
[ame]
I hope some of this makes sense. If you like some of these ideas let me know, I'd be glad to help with how to make the customization RadialMenus more user friendly.
polyxo & flat-D: Thanks for the new suggestions! I need time to digest them.
Throneinc: Can you provide more detail about the crash? It never happen to me. What happened after the crashing? Do you receive any error information? Thanks!
Also, I believe Flat-D made a suggestion a while back about leaving the camera rotation pivot where it last was during selection/sub-object mode? (Instead of defaulting back to the world coordinates like it does currently). I would like to bump that suggestion and add a +1 as well. It's quite jarring when I am working close up on an ear let's say, then exit poly sub-object mode, swing my camera, and it goes spinning around 0,0 instead of the ear I was working on.
And a big thank you for adding Cycle Shading per object! I'm still amazed by how quickly you implement these things. I think I found a bug with it though. If I have a subdivided cube, and I start cycling through vis-modes, it seems like as it switches, it's not getting rid of the previous mode, so it ends up bugging out, and drawing the interior triangles (not polys) as rendered wireframes (I can send you a screenshot if you can't reproduce it). I hope it's not a video card thing again. Is anyone else getting this problem?
Another addition... I would like to see a faceted render mode. Currently the only way I can see my model faceted, is if I make all of the edges hard. I use the faceted mode to dial in my low-res model, it really reveals how the light falls onto the planes of the object. I'm not sure you could have this AND support Hard/Soft edges too. Silo chose not to support that Hard/Soft edges, and it's one of the largest complaints of their users.
For your reference, Silo Cycles through the rendering modes as follows:
1 ) Faceted
2 ) Faceted Wire
3 ) Smooth
4 ) Smooth Wire
5 ) Default Material Smoothed
6 ) Default Material Smoothed Wire
7 ) Transparent
8 ) Transparent Wire
9 ) Wire Only
I would like to see something similar in VW, but I think Silo has too long of a list to cycle through. I would like to cycle through all of the base modes, but then be able to toggle wire on and off in any of the modes, anytime, and it stays that way as I cycle through the base modes until I toggle it differently. So then VW would look more like this:
1 ) Faceted
2 ) Smooth
3 ) Default Material (no textures)
4 ) Transparent
5 ) Wire Only <- I personally never use this mode
Wire-frame Display Suggestion: I would like the wire to be drawn a little more subtle on the object while in sub-object mode. Right now it's really bright and obtrusive. I don't mind it being bright wile the whole object is selected. I like that you can see it well, but I also like to preview my underlying model while working. Currently, the bright wire is distracting, even if I change it to black. I would like to see either the ability to change the default color while in sub-obj mode, or somehow make the ability to adjust it's transparency (which is preferred).
Maybe the wire toggle could have three modes: Transparent (for previewing model), Bright (so you can see it in dark places like armpits), and off.
And lastly (I promise), I found one more display bug. While in solid display mode (no wire-frame) if I select edges, I can't see them selected. I can see them preview, but not afterwards, even though they are indeed selected. I would like to see the red selected edges in solid mode if possible.
I hope that isn't too overwhelming. I'd like to hear if other users feel the same.
Cheers,
-ShaneO
Thanks for listening, I didn't mean to upset anyone, but someone needs to help take up for IStonia on this, as he can begin to get overwhelmed very easily.. and I would hate to see the program lose interest because of complexity issues in the code, or because he can just no longer handle it by himself..
Ciao' 4 now..
StOrM3
I would love to see better performance(SubD), possibly simplified UI and unified tools.
So far Istonia is doing a fantastic job at keeping it all bay at astonishing pace,
and I don't think it a problem to suggest an improvement or two now and then.
Having professional (and hobby!) modelers making corrections and tossing ideas is noting bad for the software.
I think it's healthy and desirable to have the best possible poly modeler on the market, for all of us.
storm3, I would prefer if Kun said this himself. It seems that he is very well capable to cope with the complexity the program has reached.
In fact he still encourages critical feedback on his Program and is very open for refinedment-requests. I very much appreciate his work and am amazed by his development-speed. It admirable how far he got in such short time!
Still: In my perception Voidworld is not yet in a state which just required a bit of Cleanup here and there and Bugfixing and then can get released. The existing SubD-programs are too strong and refined.
Voidworld as a Standalone Modeler should be at least as elegant and slim as Silo before one should even try entering the commercial market. In the current state if I had 100$ to spend I honestly would again purchase Silo. This although its further development is more than questionable.
My recent Feedback was based on experiences I made when I recently tried to do a complete Hard-Surface-Project in Voidworld.
Frankly, at some early point I simply had to go back to Silo. I still find editing far more straightforward here!
Of course I am aware of the fabulous Customization options offered in Voidworld. But none of them allow for what I discussed in my recent postings. Creating a separate Selection History stack should be relatively easy. I believe this is more of a philosophical question than a work-challenge.
Restricting functionalities to just one Sub-Object Type although they could get accessed equally well in in other modes is very questionable. Having some Tools work both on Basemeshes and Subdivided meshes and some not is a source of errors. One should at least give aStatusbar Printout about this Limitation ("This Tool does not work with Subdivision applied").
Please note that I only proposed a careful revision of existing Functionality, not anything new. I actually would like Voidworld to stay/get as slim as somehow thinkable. I don't want anything else to take place but Modeling and would consider a mistake to further add Animation, Rendering and all sorts of other stuff. If it was me even UV-Mapping could get left out. We all have other packages we use downstream which do this tremendously well. Instead I would suggest making existing Live Connections with Sculpting Apps better (3DCoat) and establish a new one (Zbrush).
We potential customers are in a comfortable situation: We get a neat new toy every other week - but we are not forced to rely on it. All of us have other SubD-Apps, no? But would we all buy it? What would happen when the Demo expired?
What I believe would help Kun to fine-tune his App was if some Hardcore-Modelers really tried doing something reasonably complex from Start to Finish with Voidworld. Not just download every other Release and toy with it for an Hour or so. Just trying out the new features doesn't reveal what is still missing in the overall work-experience. As Kun is no Modeler himself I often also think it was fabulous if some seasoned Silo User in New Zealand gave Kun an extended Side by Side Demo. What really makes the difference is often hard to capture in Screen-Recordings.
What would also help to attract more than some dozens of Nerds around the world who take part in this discussion was creating some cool Workflow Videos
and to post them on Youtube. Also making the many readers at CGTalk aware of VW would not hurt at some point.
Isn't Bay Raitt in New Zealand? He was an adequate choice I believe
You can watch some of his videos on 3dcoat forums.
Yeah, I've seen them. It's fun to see him warm up, as one would do with Penci-Sketching.
"leaving the camera rotation pivot where it last was ...". Please check this, View > View Rotation Pivot Style > Last Selection Center (NoSelection).
"and drawing the interior triangles ..." This is not a bug. It is one of the available options.
"I would like to see a faceted render mode". Could be this? Rendering > Toggle Hard/Soft Edges.
"I would like the wire to be drawn a little more subtle ". Do you mean the edge color? It can be switch between White and back. Rendering > Toggle Edge Color. I will make it customizable at some stage. It also can be on/off. There is a button bottom viewport can do that. You can also do it from the viewport contex menu, just click the viewtype label top-right viewport. Also from a shortcut.
"And lastly (I promise), I found one more display bug. While in solid display mode (no wire-frame) if I select edges, I can't see them selected. I can see them preview, but not afterwards, even though they are indeed selected. I would like to see the red selected edges in solid mode if possible." Not sure this. Please provide a pic.
Can you provide pics each for "Faceted", "Smooth", "Default Material (no textures)", "Transparent", "Wire Only". So I won't understand in the wrong way.
Throneinc: I couldn't down load the file from the link. Can you send it to info@digitalfossils.com instead? Thanks!
storm3: Thanks for joining me on the defence. But, they won. It's been like that all the time and I have got used to it.
polyxo: Thanks for the full-heartedly words! I guess if Silo still in development, you may say the same thing to them. Things can never be perfect, but can be better (or worse).
OK, that's it, I'm done, and putting away my soap box now, but you missed the point, if you are willing to learn the hotkeys, and menu items, you CAN make a complete model from start to finish in Voidworld, I've done it! and guess what, NO CRASH! No Cussing, etc..
OK, I'm done, IStonia, Sorry I didn't mean to start a fight, I just want people to help themselves some instead of asking for every little UI candy thing, you already made VW very user configurable for a reason, and yet they don't want to take advantage of it..
BTW: IStonia, Part 2 of the tutorial is coming out today, the family is away, and I can finally get some record time.. So look for that later on today.. Thanks IStonia...
Ciao' 4 Now,
StOrM3
I'd rather for now vote for the program to stop adding feature unless its crucial, while fixing bugs and make the program solid so it can be a commercial product soon.
Good that you got my words right, I did not intent to criticize you. It is just normal that after a phase of adding a lot of functionality quite an amount of streamlining is needed.
This here seems to be a place where a lot of long time Silo Users gather. To me it just seemed clever to meet their Preferences.
You have already delivered in one Area - the Customizability. But there's also parts of Silo's Beauty which can't be accessed through editing Workspaces and Shortcuts alone also if some people seem to differ here.
That's the concentration of Tools I brought up which also took the Silo-Makers long time to establish.
Generally I find that through the overwhelming Customizability a considerable Complexity has arisen! I find the division between normal and streamline tools difficult to grasp and intimidating for new users, even if one can alway go back to default. As always when exposing so much Customizing to users there's also great options to create conflicting functionality or to actually switch desired Functions off without knowing.
Just assign a Navigation function to RMB. You'll then lose the Radial-Menu. You of course have thought of this and provide alternative ways to trigger this Menu. But one has to think of that, the Program doesn't tell.
I think one can consider me an experienced 3D-Program user: Still I am kind of hesitant to move Hotkeys from one place to another. Reason being: I fear to lose some Functionality by not hooking things up again correctly as there's even two places where one sets Hotkeys.
The slim way to assign Hotkeys through pressing "End" does not seem to work here... A Search function in the Customize Dialogs would help a lot for starters but I believe that in the End only one very well structured area where program-wide Hotkeys get set should remain.
I was not recommending anyone to buy Silo, I basically wanted to make a point.
Silo's legendary lack of Program stability on certain hardware does not take away from the Beauty in its underlying logic.
Yo are complaining about errors in Custom GUI's. That's no Nevercenters fault. These Interfaces were created by Users. I've never tried those. One can run Silo just fine without any GUI showing apart from the Viewport.
All Editors then simply pop up at mouse-point.
The state of Voidworld at the moment is as if you had taken Max, Maya, SI, Silo, Modo; put them on a table and smashed them to smithereens with a big hammer. We have most of the parts laid bare in front of us we just have to help Kun put it back together in the most streamlined way possible. He always said that the function comes 1st and UI (or lack of) will come next.
To be honest I press F5 at the beginning of my modelling exercises and have no UI at all. It's completely comfortable and feels just like it did when I used Silo back in the day (minus the pain)
I want to say a huge congratulations to Kun for being so diligent with this app so far and for dealing with all the requests and bug reports so professionally. All the best mate, you're brilliant.
and now for something completely different...
*BUGS/SUGGESTIONS*
cheers