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  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    Dim wrote: »
    @Super Happy Cow: I agree with you about the shortcuts, but there's definitely some inconsistency in Blender too (some weird shortcuts like ctrl+alt+shift+c, and some inconsistent things like unwrapping in the 3D view with u, but unwrapping in the UV editor with e, or using ctrl+shift+tab in the 3D view, but not being able to use it in the UV editor). I agree with you that it's definitely better, but let's not whitewash it :P

    @greevar: I'm not sure I completely agree with you. Certainly, ngons definitely tend to produce messier meshes if you aren't careful (some of the meshes I deal with at work are horribly mangled), but using ngons in a lot of cases is really fast compared to not having them, particularly when dealing with any arbitrary forms or geometry. Also, on my highpoly meshes I'd kill for ngons since my cleanliness matters little in many cases.

    Perhaps, but can you really complain when what you do get is this good and free? I think it's a small sacrifice for getting such a great tool for nothing. Besides, they are working on it. So it's not like ngons will never be part of Blender. I'd say, be patient and just work around the limitations for now. Everything else about it is gravy IMHO.

    I would like a better cut tool though...:\
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 12
    Just because something is free, doesn't shield it from criticism.
  • Dim
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    Dim polycounter lvl 10
    Ace is right, we can't have it both ways. Blender is either professional and competent enough to receive valid criticism (something I definitely believe), or it's just a hobby tool that's free, so you can't complain, but it can't be both.

    Personally, I think Blender has grown to something that is competent enough to put it in the big leagues, and thus, it needs to be able to take (and use) valid criticism. Not complaining because it's free I think is fairly demeaning to the coders who work on it.
  • Andreas
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    Andreas polycounter lvl 11
    I've never needed an ngon, I don't know what peoples hang-up with it is... when have you guys ever really needed an ngon for a model?
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 12
    I don't understand why people keep on saying "We should bypass Ngons" or "Ngons, I never used them" because it must be next to damn hard to try and AVOID Ngons. You're going to want to have them in your model, atelast for a temporary solution when you're blocking out the silhouette of your model or hard surface object, or when you're cutting, decided to leave on part Ngon till you finish Quading before you Tri off the Ngon.

    Avoiding Ngons is like avoiding triangles, yes you can do it, but the payoff is very little for the effort.

    I'm not bashing Blender for this point mind you, the guys could very well be staying away from Ngons because it will drop performance if they included Ngons for all I know, but people who try and defend this point must have a very rigid workflow for their models, and that isn't very healthy for innovation and progress...especially for a growing program like Blender.
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    Ace-Angel wrote: »
    I don't understand why people keep on saying "We should bypass Ngons" or "Ngons, I never used them" because it must be next to damn hard to try and AVOID Ngons. You're going to want to have them in your model, atelast for a temporary solution when you're blocking out the silhouette of your model or hard surface object, or when you're cutting, decided to leave on part Ngon till you finish Quading before you Tri off the Ngon.

    Avoiding Ngons is like avoiding triangles, yes you can do it, but the payoff is very little for the effort.

    I'm not bashing Blender for this point mind you, the guys could very well be staying away from Ngons because it will drop performance if they included Ngons for all I know, but people who try and defend this point must have a very rigid workflow for their models, and that isn't very healthy for innovation and progress...especially for a growing program like Blender.

    I think the only reason Blender doesn't have Ngons right now is because the mesh code is so old (15yrs+, iirc)

    I'm not sure I can agree with your statement that people who dont use NGons must have a rigid workflow...Its just a different way of modelling. Bob Ross used 1-2' paint brushes, but i wouldn't say that they blocked his innovation. ;)

    Not having NGons just forces you to plan ahead, but its not like you have to spend 30 mins visualising a mesh before you can make a model. We model at the same speed as everyone else, but have developed a different set of habits to someone who uses Ngons. Are they really that much quicker if you have to clean the mesh later anyway?
    You can still block out shapes and fill holes rapidly (Blender just fills with tris. natively or you can bridge with quads).
    I can see the benefits of the mesh looking cleaner, however. :)
  • Andreas
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    Andreas polycounter lvl 11
    Ace-Angel wrote: »
    Avoiding Ngons is like avoiding triangles, yes you can do it, but the payoff is very little for the effort.

    I assume you mean this in terms of the low poly mesh...

    I don't think I've ever created an n-gon while modelling... in what kind of situation would it arise?
  • Zipfinator
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    Zipfinator polycounter lvl 9
    Andreas wrote: »
    I assume you mean this in terms of the low poly mesh...

    I don't think I've ever created an n-gon while modelling... in what kind of situation would it arise?

    You've never created a face with more than 4 sides to it while modeling? I don't see how that's possible unless you mean you've just never left one in a finished model.
  • Andreas
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    Andreas polycounter lvl 11
    I guess so... I guess maybe I always just immediately create faces in Blender using the hotkey... I find you have to approach modelling different in every package... if I went and tried to make an ngon in blender, it would work? Like if I added a vertex to a circle say? Or would it automatically create a triangle or something...
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    Zipfinator wrote: »
    You've never created a face with more than 4 sides to it while modeling? I don't see how that's possible unless you mean you've just never left one in a finished model.
    Andreas wrote: »
    I guess so... I guess maybe I always just immediately create faces in Blender using the hotkey... I find you have to approach modelling different in every package... if I went and tried to make an ngon in blender, it would work? Like if I added a vertex to a circle say? Or would it automatically create a triangle or something...

    You cant create faces with more than 4 sides in Blender. Everything is created as tris or quads. :)
  • Dim
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    Dim polycounter lvl 10
    I think this argument is a bit silly. Undoubtedly, Blender would be better with ngons than without. Since when has giving people a choice of workflow ever been a bad thing? If you don't like ngons for some reason, fine, use ctrl+t, but for everyone else, it can drastically increase the speed of modeling. Having started with Blender, I used to argue from a similar position, but now that I have used Max and Maya extensively (I tend to use all three), I can see their value and would really appreciate their inclusion in Blender. It doesn't make you less of a purist, it just lets you get things done faster. The main reason that ngons really help is because they allow you to define form without worrying much about your topo until you need to, so they do save you a lot of time. In addition, when coupled with grease pencil, I can foresee a lot of interesting uses for sketching out geometry.
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    I just don't see the usefulness of ngons. If you are going to end in quads, why not start with quads? If you use ngons, you have to put in effort to turn them into quads and triangles. Why not just put in quads and triangles to start with? A triangle(s) attached to a quad would net you similar results, and it still permits you to add edge loops through them. You will likely rotate the edges inside the ngon into a quad and tri pattern anyway, so why bother?

    Nevertheless, I think Blender is the best package you can get for a budget of zero. It's easily worth as much as the Zbrush price tag, it may be even worth the Max price tag. Although, I'm so glad it's free.
  • planaria
    i find it funny that when an actually valid criticism about blender comes around that a lot of people punk out with the excuses.

    fyi, blender was the first 3d-modelling program i ever used, and i love it. but to say that ngon support wouldnt be usefull is foolish. i have to wonder how much modelling you actually do inside blender. otoh what blender really needs is a long hard look at its modelling tools in general which have been suffering as of late. can you model anything you can think of? probably but are certain things unnecessarily tedious? they definitely are. bevelling, certain types of scaling(although you can get around this with the 3d cursor and special transform orientations, but again it can get tedious for complex stuff), edge loop placement (ngons make edge loop creation easier) could all benefit from ngons and improvements to all the basic modelling tools.

    that said i just recently watched a maya video on uv unwrapping a shotgun .. and all i have to say is .. maya users, i am SO sorry for you!
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    planaria wrote: »
    i find it funny that when an actually valid criticism about blender comes around that a lot of people punk out with the excuses.

    Cognitive dissonance is the cause of it. I just realized that I was just suffering from that very affliction. I had to rationalize my choice in software by determining that it is superior to others and when faced with dissenting opinion, I immediately reacted by trying to defend the choice that I had taken as better than others. I had so much so, that I refuse to find fault in any of its design. It's not the first time this has happened for me. It likely won't be the last. So the debate spirals down to reductio ad absurdum until Godwin's Law kicks in.

    The truth is, I just prefer Blender because it "feels right" when I use it. I have a mind that works well with a bilateral control scheme. So I like it.
  • Mongrelman
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    Mongrelman polycounter lvl 18
    Cutting in your own edges in maya etc. you just cut where you want, put the edges where you want. Trying to do this in Blender it then triangulates ngons you were left with (that you were going to cut into quads manually). Instead of just cutting an edge between two verts in the ngon, you have to delete the faces it's put in, then select the edges you want and fill them to create the final geometry you wanted. Having ngon support in Blender would streamline that a bit, which would be nice.

    I'm looking at moving all (or close to all) my modeling back over to Blender once Bmesh is in, and I love the program. But it does need some TLC in some areas and ngon support is one, which would also open the modeling tools up to further improvements.

    And yes, comparing UV mapping in maya and blender.......please don't take blender away from me!
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    Yeah. Blender's unwrapping is straight dope compared to other progs I've used, but yeah. Ngons would be nice. The kutting thing does not make me happy. and modeling high poly assets is certainly not as easy in Blender.

    If it had more tools suited for high res stuff and ngons on top of that I'd love Blender so much that I'd marry it. :]

    What sort of modelling tools does everyone want in Blender?
    It might be an idea to get some ideas logged down, so we can point devs. in the right direction :)
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 12
    I think the only reason Blender doesn't have Ngons right now is because the mesh code is so old (15yrs+, iirc)

    I'm not sure I can agree with your statement that people who dont use NGons must have a rigid workflow...Its just a different way of modelling. Bob Ross used 1-2' paint brushes, but i wouldn't say that they blocked his innovation. ;)

    Not having NGons just forces you to plan ahead, but its not like you have to spend 30 mins visualising a mesh before you can make a model. We model at the same speed as everyone else, but have developed a different set of habits to someone who uses Ngons. Are they really that much quicker if you have to clean the mesh later anyway?
    You can still block out shapes and fill holes rapidly (Blender just fills with tris. natively or you can bridge with quads).
    I can see the benefits of the mesh looking cleaner, however. :)

    Yeah MetalAndy, you're right, sorry that I got steamed for this point, I shouldn't have, apologize for bashing everyone on this point sorry.

    It's just that with all the bashing people are putting on Ngons just to defend Blender is getting on my ticks. I mean having workflow without Ngons is one thing, but it rubs me the wrong way when someone says "Hey, why do you need Ngons?"...it just sounds tacky and uncalled for...kinda like my previous comment now that I look on it.
    What sort of modelling tools does everyone want in Blender?
    It might be an idea to get some ideas logged down, so we can point devs. in the right direction :)

    A nice set of polyboost tools would nice (although I'm pretty sure Blender already has them).
  • leilei
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    leilei polycounter lvl 14
    Well it's not as anal as Milkshape loyalists discriminating against the use of quads and IK because MS3D can't do it.
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 12
    leilei wrote: »
    Well it's not as anal as Milkshape loyalists discriminating against the use of quads and IK because MS3D can't do it.
    Never used Milkshape but that doesn't sound very nice...
  • Traix
    mirror bone weights
    I thought this already exist?.. sure you can't mirror bone weights after weight painting but if you've correctly named the bones you can mirror the weights while painting using the x-mirror option on the brush menu.
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    Ace-Angel wrote: »
    Yeah MetalAndy, you're right, sorry that I got steamed for this point, I shouldn't have, apologize for bashing everyone on this point sorry.
    <snip>
    A nice set of polyboost tools would nice (although I'm pretty sure Blender already has them).
    It's cool man :)
    LoopTools is now distributed with Blender and i made a Fastloop script a while back, if that is of any use :)
    leilei wrote: »
    Well it's not as anal as Milkshape loyalists discriminating against the use of quads and IK because MS3D can't do it.
    I learned to model in MS3D :/
    Not a barrel of laughs :P
    Eh. Some things in general that Blender should have:

    <Snip>

    Nice list!

    I had a quick look through and off the top of my head you can do some of this already :)

    ability to select vertex group by faces rather than fundementally as vertex points:-
    You can assign vertex groups like this already. To assign vertex groups, select the faces/verts and then go to > Object Data> Vertex Groups> Hit the + and then hit Assign.
    To select them, just hit select.
    Is that what you meant?

    Seams from islands :-
    I fixed this script the other day and have contacted the devs. about getting it included back into contrib. You can get it here

    editing of proportional falloff:- You can do this already
    (In Edit Mode)
    PF.jpg

    object name editor:-
    You can already change the names of Objects in the Properties panel (N) and the Object Data Panel

    edges to curve:- You can do this by hitting Alt C in Object mode

    clean meshes:- You do do some of this already. Remove Doubles (W), will remove any duplicated edges/verts and if you unassign Mats, vert groups etc. and then save your .Blend, the next time you open Blender (or the .Blend) they will be deleted.
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    Ace-Angel wrote: »
    A nice set of polyboost tools would nice (although I'm pretty sure Blender already has them).

    I looked up polyboost and Blender has most of those features built in. There's plenty of other free plugins you can find that will add other useful functionality too. Oh, I also found a nifty site called Blendswap: http://www.blendswap.com/
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 12
    I think if we gathered ALL the cool scripts from Max at Scriptspot and made a repository of sorts for the authors of Blender to take a look at, it would work wonders.

    I know that a nice PolyBridge tool from miauu would serve many well (unless Blender has it already).
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    Ace-Angel wrote: »
    I think if we gathered ALL the cool scripts from Max at Scriptspot and made a repository of sorts for the authors of Blender to take a look at, it would work wonders.

    I know that a nice PolyBridge tool from miauu would serve many well (unless Blender has it already).

    Looptools
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    ability to select vertex group by faces rather than fundementally as vertex points:-

    I dont see those problems you are having with vertex groups. Can you post a pic?

    To convert an edge to a curve go Alt+C >Curve from Mesh/Text.
    It only works on edges though so there cant be any connected faces. It looks like it converts the edges into paths but it doesn't seem to convert correctly. It has all the curve properties but isnt smooth...odd. Maybe a bug?

    Im glad you like the seams from islands...i was beginning to think i was the only person who used it :P
    Ace-Angel wrote: »
    I think if we gathered ALL the cool scripts from Max at Scriptspot and made a repository of sorts for the authors of Blender to take a look at, it would work wonders.

    I know that a nice PolyBridge tool from miauu would serve many well (unless Blender has it already).
    As greevar pointed out Looptools> Bridge (Looptools is in the official release now too ) :)
  • Andreas
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    Andreas polycounter lvl 11

    As greevar pointed out Looptools> Bridge (Looptools is in the official release now too ) :)

    Really? Do we have to activate it as an addon?
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    Andreas wrote: »
    Really? Do we have to activate it as an addon?
    Yea :)
    Its under prefs> Mesh> Looptools.
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    Looptools is niiiiiiice! I also like the inset extrude plugin. Very handy when you want to add some faces without distorting the surface.
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 12
    OK, it also hhas Loop Regularize, Bridging and curve and...

    Honestly...are you guys sure this program is free? I find it hard to believe Blender has next gen workflow and Autodesk products yet don't...
  • Andreas
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    Andreas polycounter lvl 11
    Yea :)
    Its under prefs> Mesh> Looptools.

    And relax is in! Sexy.
  • Dim
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    Dim polycounter lvl 10
    The vert group thing is pretty hard for me to describe right now, so I give up. At least until it happens to me again and I get really annoyed. : P


    I created a proposal for this a while back: http://dim.blenderge.com/Documents/componentGroupProposal.pdf

    I was flatly wrong about a couple of things, but my general point still stands.
  • planaria
    attached an animated gif showing off the problem, basically i run into what i think the problem he is talking about when i have a heavily triangulated mesh and i make a vertex group that is a bit jagged.

    when you reselect the vertex group it will select the triangle inbetween two triangles currently in the vert group.
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    2.58 is out guys :) They added a bunch of cool stuff like, A Warp Modifier, Multi-resolution Render Baking, Empty Images Display, New Constructive modifiers for Sculpting, Mesh Inset and Camera Locking :)
    http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-258/

    I think im most excited about the Empty Images Display feature...it basically allows you to add blueprints in a similar way to max etc. :)

    There is a 8 page change log too. lol
    http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Release_Notes/changelog_258
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    Hey guys,

    I just thought I would spam this thread a bit, to tell everyone that I have just updated my Polysphere and Chainmail scripts so that they both work in 2.58.

    Enjoy! :)
  • planaria
    Scripters for blender = most awesome people ever :)
    Hey guys,

    I just thought I would spam this thread a bit, to tell everyone that I have just updated my Polysphere and Chainmail scripts so that they both work in 2.58.

    Enjoy! :)
  • metalliandy
  • Dim
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    Dim polycounter lvl 10
  • Snowfly
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    Snowfly polycounter lvl 18
    Damn, now we've got a full set of baking options. The new inset, and painting palettes are a huge workflow boosts for me.. and it's about time we got a camera lock!
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    The only thing Blender needs now, is Cages and AA...Then we are good to go! :)
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    The only thing Blender needs now, is Cages and AA...Then we are good to go! :)

    Normal cage and Anti-Aliasing?
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    greevar wrote: »
    Normal cage and Anti-Aliasing?

    Yea, currently the only way to bake (afaik) is with uniform ray distances, which suck.:P

    You can work around the AA by baking double res. and resizing for 4x, but it would be nice if you didnt have too.
  • Andreas
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    Andreas polycounter lvl 11
    The new render baking features sound great... so basically I can use a shader from the blender material depository and bake the whole thing down to maps?
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    Andreas wrote: »
    The new render baking features sound great... so basically I can use a shader from the blender material depository and bake the whole thing down to maps?

    Yup :)
  • planaria
    About cages, why cant you :

    duplicate mesh

    take duplicated mesh turn it into a cage mesh, set it to render target done

    the duplicated mesh will have the same uvcoords because you were a smarty and unwrapped the original model before all of this.
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    planaria wrote: »
    About cages, why cant you :

    duplicate mesh

    take duplicated mesh turn it into a cage mesh, set it to render target done

    the duplicated mesh will have the same uvcoords because you were a smarty and unwrapped the original model before all of this.

    This wouldn't change the way in which Blender uses uniform ray distances to control ray termination, and any distortion that you get when you scale along the normals (for the cage) would be transferred onto the bake. Also the vert. normals would be different, which would cause shading errors on the LP because the normal map was baked for a different mesh. :(
  • Andreas
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    Andreas polycounter lvl 11
    I wish they'd write up a quick 'how-to' with each feature, as I'm incurably lazy :( Like, how do I even use the new Empty Images display? I created an empty, do I then go to the texture channel and pick an image? The provided image in the log doesnt suggest so...
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    Andreas wrote: »
    I wish they'd write up a quick 'how-to' with each feature, as I'm incurably lazy :( Like, how do I even use the new Empty Images display? I created an empty, do I then go to the texture channel and pick an image? The provided image in the log doesnt suggest so...

    Make an empty, click on object data in the tabs pane, and select image from the dropdown. Click open and take your pick.
  • Andreas
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    Andreas polycounter lvl 11
    Works pretty well :) Would be good if it had a button to make freeze the reference image though...
  • Snowfly
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    Snowfly polycounter lvl 18
    You do that from the Outliner. Click on the arrow icon to disable selection of the object :)
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    Andreas wrote: »
    Works pretty well :) Would be good if it had a button to make freeze the reference image though...

    In the outliner, click the mouse icon next to the empty. It's now non-selectable.

    Edit: You beat me to it fly!
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