It was 8 times the size of any other house in the area.
All houses had to be registered.
The old president used to pass by that house often.
That house is very close to Pakistan's top military training school.
*shrugs* Take it or leave it.
Laden was ex-CIA
Got help from America to fight against Russia
Has billions and billions of dollars among thousands of other things
meh, what I was trying to say (my response to GCMP) was that the village, and Pakistan as a whole (citizens), probably didn't know who lives there. I'm sure the president elect at the time, Musharraf, knew all of this... He was crooked as fuck and took a good amount of US money (US sent to Pakistan to be buddies), around $3.6billion a year.
Man Pakistani government is just as corrupt as any other country. Did you guys forget about the Benazir Bhutto assassination... sure they knew about Osama, why not... just another character in the plot of this story.
Does this means the story ends because the bad guy is killed and the prince and princes got married?? Fuck no.
1) Not much of trail, its not like he would plead anything but guilty. He's on record/tape saying so, he would gladly do it over and over again if he could, again also on record. It's not like he was wanted for Questioning... he was wanted dead or alive. If the choice is, come back alive with Osama in a body bag, or die there... his ass is going in a bag...
Then you have his belief system. This guy perfected the brainwashing that goes into making people martyr themselves. Dying in battle is a glorious thing... Being taken into custody wasn't an option for him... Oh the Americans are here, cool I'll go pack and call my lawyer, guys stop shooting at them, its cool we're going peacefully.
Then we have the issue of when his buddies/guards are engaged in a shoot out, outside, then they storm inside all it takes to get shot is not standing perfectly still even then if you even smell like a threat you're gone. When it comes down to does he have a gun does he not, is he making a threatening move or not, its the call of the guy behind the trigger, he's going to make the best call for him not the guy who would gladly kill him if given a chance. You can't give them that chance he'll take it. Oh wait do over... I'll go back outside and this time when I bust down the door I'll kill ya first ok?
Exactly Mark. It is completely insane to me how many "stupid" Americans wanted us to capture and bring this mass murderer back to the States.
What would that change? Didn't we do that with Hussein, and we were STILL hated anyways.
We were screwed either way, but I am glad we cold fished this evil sack of humanity before he could gloat any more.
It is shameful how we STILL can't get our story straight.
I trust the SEALS over this corrupt administration ANY day.
Geronimo was the code name of the operation to kill Osama.
Geronimo was a Native American hero ie. a real American. everyone in the country (except any native Americans) are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants/invaders who stole America from the native Americans.
so my point is, the code name of the operation is just another example of illegal invasion and global domination.
So you don't think that we were honoring his name? You think it is just another stamp on our blighted history, despite the fact Native Americans are still honored?
MM, get off your moral hand wringings. The US is not a perfect country, but we have done as much as we can to right the wrongs of our past, and no country or ideal is really "free" from corruption.
I don't see the operation name as an insult, but as honoring our "true" heritage. Why do you think so much of our military vehicles/equipment are named after Native Americans? It isn't to shame them but to honor them.
"I think that's where I come down on this. As an American, I find the belligerent war machine bullshit unpalatable, with the invasion of Iraq being a prime example of 'war pigs' having their way. But I also do take a measure of pride in knowing that America can send two dozen highly-trained specialists to perform an exceptionally difficult task, and and they can complete that task perfectly with no collateral damage. If conflict is inevitable, which human history suggests it is, I'd rather my country be really good at it than not."-TomDunne http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 that's how you are really good at it.
And if the Americans were allowed to carry out their guns in the streets and fire wildly in celebration, you know they would, because they probably have the weapons already :P
NYC has very strict gun laws - which is where the celebration took place.
Most people who lived around there have a friend or family member that died or was effected by it. My best friend's father was pretty much crippled by toxic fume inhalation, my Girlfriend's cousin lucked out and was doing something else when the majority of his fellow firefighters died in the towers - he eventually had the task of trying to retrieve bodies out of the rubble.
I wish I could find the article but a photographer took a bunch of photos around NYC the day after 9/11 of all the shrines and signs calling for peace. It would make a good contrast to alot of the stereotyping going on in here.
This wasn't a country wide celebration from what I've seen, most of the discussion has be fairly introspected and mixed. I had a friend who served in Iraq who came back with some 9/11 hookah tobacco, he said they treated it like a national holiday and sold everything from t-shirts to posters celebrating it. So whoever believes that "same" picture can kindly sit and spin for all I care. When McDonald's sells a Osama's Dead happy meal then maybe we can start making comparisons.
I thought about it like this: my dad died of cancer, if cancer was actually a person and I just heard he'd been shot and killed, yes I'd be happy.
That entire post was a joke (hence the "durr" at the end).
Honestly though, it's celebration of death, simple as, doesn't matter who it's for, doesn't justify it.
My apologies, Skamberin. I saw your abbreviated post with the picture quoted a few pages back, and jumped on it. Sad thing is, I've seen that correlation made several times on the web.
I agree with you; a celebration of death leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can't say that I wouldn't be extremely pleased with Bin Laden's death, if I had lost someone I cared for during the attack. I'm still pleased that he, personally, can do no more harm. I think I would be equally pleased, had he died of natural causes, though. I'm not one to put on my best flag shirt, head to the streets, and scream "Thank Jesus!".
Anyone ignorant enough to judge an entire nation by a couple hundred people celebrating in the streets is just that... ignorant.
NYC has very strict gun laws - which is where the celebration took place.
Most people who lived around there have a friend or family member that died or was effected by it. My best friend's father was pretty much crippled by toxic fume inhalation, my Girlfriend's cousin lucked out and was doing something else when the majority of his fellow firefighters died in the towers - he eventually had the task of trying to retrieve bodies out of the rubble.
I wish I could find the article but a photographer took a bunch of photos around NYC the day after 9/11 of all the shrines and signs calling for peace. It would make a good contrast to alot of the stereotyping going on in here.
This wasn't a country wide celebration from what I've seen, most of the discussion has be fairly introspected and mixed. I had a friend who served in Iraq who came back with some 9/11 hookah tobacco, he said they treated it like a national holiday and sold everything from t-shirts to posters celebrating it. So whoever believes that "same" picture can kindly sit and spin for all I care. When McDonald's sells a Osama's Dead happy meal then maybe we can start making comparisons.
I thought about it like this: my dad died of cancer, if cancer was actually a person and I just heard he'd been shot and killed, yes I'd be happy.
I should have specified that I only meant the Americans celebrating this, like the ones in that picture. I didn't mean to generalize. A friend of mine lost his best friend on 9/11 but he didn't celebrate like this, it won't bring anyone back and I think you're a better person for not sinking to that level, but that's just me.
Sure you can feel some sort of closure and be glad that harm can't be caused onto others anymore, but celebrating it like some sports achievement isn't very becoming of a "modern" country. As for the weapons quip, I did say "if they were allowed", as in, if there was no law against it :P.
And the fact that they celebrate 9/11 like a holiday "over there" is honestly disgusting.
Ok I won't go into the debate too much but there is one part that I just can't wrap my head around. Statements like this :
Being an American, I can not express how good it feel's that justice was served to Osama Bin Laden.
I am not attacking whoever said that - I just don't understand it.
How does it constitute any kind of justice ? Justice would have been to manage to capture him alive, gather more intel, and witnessing the gradual collapse of the networks behind the attacks - maybe after an uprising coming from this area of the world itself. Who knows! This could span over generations or even centuries.
I don't see how the death of one dude would serve as justice against the thousands of innocent people who died or got affected by 9/11. I don't think any justice will be ever enough to compensate for that. Maybe worldwide peace ? But we are far from that.
I find it quite disrespectful that even the president itself used the word justice in his speech. I am not saying that with OBL in sight, the soldier shouldn't have hit the trigger - especially since their was obviously firearms on both sides. Under the raid circumstances, killing him was certainly necessary, but in my opinion this is not an achievement since I don't think it solves anything. I am puzzled! But I might be missing something, dunno.
Yup - this I can totally understand, you're exactly right. Even witnessed all the way from Europe, I have crystal clear memories of the day of the attacks (like, uncanny clear visual details). It was right before final graduation exams and presentations at school and the all-so-important projects we were working on just looked so stupid and pointless all of a sudden.
I guess my point is that, hearing about the OBL kill sends me back to these memories and the massive death poll of that day - it makes me sad, and certainly does not put me in a cheering wild crowd celebration mood. Not sure if it makes sense ?
Yup - this I can totally understand, you're exactly right. Even witnessed all the way from Europe, I have crystal clear memories of the day of the attacks (like, uncanny clear visual details). It was right before final graduation exams and presentations at school and the all-so-important projects we were working on just looked so stupid and pointless all of a sudden.
I guess my point is that, hearing about the OBL kill sends me back to these memories and the massive death poll of that day - it makes me sad, and certainly does not put me in a cheering wild crowd celebration mood. Not sure if it makes sense ?
I don't see how the death of one dude would serve as justice against the thousands of innocent people who died or got affected by 9/11
When I originally posted that comment I never implied that his death would serve as justice against the thousand of innocent people who died or were affected by the attacks of 9/11 (or any other terrorist act done by the Al Queda). There is nothing that can be done to make up for that type of loss. What I was saying is that I am happy that Osama finally answered for what he did. I am happy that after all of the horrible things he has done, he cannot hurt anyone else. He was a poison that preached nothing but hate and misunderstanding. I feel that most American's would say the same.
So you don't think that we were honoring his name? You think it is just another stamp on our blighted history, despite the fact Native Americans are still honored?
my grandfather is native american, was raised on a reservation and i take offense to this, this country has done nothing to honor native americans, unless you count fencing them in isolated dirt patches with no water, FBI randomly raiding reservations and shooting men woman and children as "honor".
america has honored the native americans about as much as the nazi's honored the jews, actually less, an estimated 114 million native americans were killed as a direct result of US actions. Nazi Holocaust estimates are between 6 and 11 million. And you guys are all butt hurt about 3 fucking thousand, boo fucking hoo.
washington redskins is a sports team to this fucking day, why don't we have an alabama niggers sports team, or a los angeles wetbacks sports team, or San Francisco faggots sports team.
i really didn't want to get into this, but this shit is disgusting..
my grandfather is native american, was raised on a reservation and i take offense to this, this country has done nothing to honor native americans, unless you count fencing them in isolated dirt patches with no water, FBI randomly raiding reservations and shooting men woman and children as "honor".
america has honored the native americans about as much as the nazi's honored the jews, actually less, an estimated 114 million native americans were killed as a direct result of US actions. Nazi Holocaust estimates are between 6 and 11 million. And you guys are all butt hurt about 3 fucking thousand, boo fucking hoo.
washington redskins is a sports team to this fucking day, why don't we have an alabama niggers sports team, or a los angeles wetbacks sports team, or San Francisco faggots sports team.
take all that honor and shove it up your ass.
You think I don't realize all of that bad we have done? Do you also realize the good we have done for Native Americans too? Or do you just see the bad? I think your argument was in extremely poor taste(not to mention low class) and I'd rather not even debate with someone with such poor taste, or blatant disregard for human dignity in general.
I meant no offense from my initial comments. I recognize the bad we have done, but I have also recognized all the good the US Government has done to assist Native Americans. (Tax free Casino's and college grants anyone? among many other things.)
Maybe it will never be enough to mend the wounds, but I think that you really have a lot of hatred, bigotry and ignorance in you to have said the things you said. I can at least acknowledge and look at both sides of something and go from there.
But you, just close it up with a big "shove it up your ass" and have a nice day too!
You think I don't realize all of that bad we have done? Do you also realize the good we have done for Native Americans too? Or do you just see the bad? I think your argument was in extremely poor taste(not to mention low class) and I'd rather not even debate with someone with such poor taste, or blatant disregard for human dignity in general.
I meant no offense from my initial comments. I recognize the bad we have done, but I have also recognized all the good the US Government has done to assist Native Americans. (Tax free Casino's and college grants anyone? among many other things.)
Maybe it will never be enough to mend the wounds, but I think that you really have a lot of hatred, bigotry and ignorance in you to have said the things you said. I can at least acknowledge and look at both sides of something and go from there.
But you, just close it up with a big "shove it up your ass" and have a nice day too, prick!
[quote=arshlevon;1346682]america has honored the native americans about as much as the nazi's honored the jews, actually less, an estimated 114 million native americans were killed as a direct result of US actions. Nazi Holocaust estimates are between 6 and 11 million. And you guys are all butt hurt about 3 fucking thousand, boo fucking hoo.
washington redskins is a sports team to this fucking day, why don't we have an alabama niggers sports team, or a los angeles wetbacks sports team, or San Francisco faggots sports team.
take all that honor and shove it up your ass.[/quote]
And this type of "debate" is acceptable to you, Ferg?
EDIT: And I apologize for calling arshlevon a "Prick" but when he said I could take my honor and shove it up my ass, that strikes a nerve with me too. Is that fair? Not too mention all that other extremely vulgar language, really, to use those kinds of words. I had NO idea that the term "Red skins" applied equally to all of those other words he was so kind to have listed!
I honor the Native Americans, I do think it is very tragic what we did to them. But it is also a complete shame that people do not see that we have at least TRIED to make a difference by showing we were sorry for what we did. I never meant to offend anyone, but on that same token, when someone starts saying "boo fucking hoo" about 3,000 Americans dead after the WORST terrorist attack in our nation's history, that also pisses me off.
Make jokes, disregard what happened, but at least I am not mocking the deaths we inflicted on Native Americans during our county's past.
"I think that's where I come down on this. As an American, I find the belligerent war machine bullshit unpalatable, with the invasion of Iraq being a prime example of 'war pigs' having their way. But I also do take a measure of pride in knowing that America can send two dozen highly-trained specialists to perform an exceptionally difficult task, and and they can complete that task perfectly with no collateral damage. If conflict is inevitable, which human history suggests it is, I'd rather my country be really good at it than not."-TomDunne http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 that's how you are really good at it.
America is really good at warfare because of a Finnish sniper? I don't follow.
the fact is native americans are still killed by illegal fbi raids every year. my cousin was shot 3 times less than 5 years ago, he was 9 years old, thats not honor its disgusting, and yes redskin is just as offensive as all "those other words", so is is that honor? this has nothing to do with this country's past i am talking about present day.
the casinos are raided constantly by FBI because its the native americans main source of income, so what they do is come in with a bunch of trucks and take the machines.
so when when i hear someone say america honors native americans its kind of like they just spit in my face. anyway this is thread about bin laden go back to arguing about him still being alive.
washington redskins is a sports team to this fucking day, why don't we have an alabama niggers sports team, or a los angeles wetbacks sports team, or San Francisco faggots sports team.
Bit of an aside here...
Redskins is not a pleasant name, no doubt, but I never understood that as much cause for outrage. Most teams that have native American mascots treat them about like any other culture's notable figures. Braves and Chiefs aren't really different from Vikings, Cavaliers, Cowboys or Knights. My family came from Ireland, just three generations in America, but I can't see getting upset about Notre Dame's cartoonish mascot or the drunk stereotype of "fighting" Irishmen. The intent with those names, including Redskins, isn't to offend. Inappropriate as they are, I personally wouldn't be concerned unless there's actual ill intent rather than just a fan of a team that was named in a much less sensitive era.
<me pushes Atlanta Braves hat back into closet...>
i really didn't want to get into this, but this shit is disgusting..
my grandfather is native american, was raised on a reservation and i take offense to this, this country has done nothing to honor native americans, unless you count fencing them in isolated dirt patches with no water, FBI randomly raiding reservations and shooting men woman and children as "honor".
america has honored the native americans about as much as the nazi's honored the jews, actually less, an estimated 114 million native americans were killed as a direct result of US actions. Nazi Holocaust estimates are between 6 and 11 million. And you guys are all butt hurt about 3 fucking thousand, boo fucking hoo.
washington redskins is a sports team to this fucking day, why don't we have an alabama niggers sports team, or a los angeles wetbacks sports team, or San Francisco faggots sports team.
take all that honor and shove it up your ass.
Don't forget about people going onto reservations so they can rape women and get away with it thanks to the local authority having no power over anyone but Native Americans. Even caught in the act, anyone who is not from the tribe is released and the case is "passed on" to the Department of Indian Affairs where the case goes no where.
If there has been any lifting up and honoring, its been by the Native Americans themselves in spite of the constant abuse and purposeful legal tape aimed at holding them back (The Department of Indian Affairs).
http://www.nativelegalupdate.com/2011/04/articles/quileute-tribe-seeks-higher-ground-to-avoid-tsunamis/
Also the Quileute tribe is looking to do a land swap and move out of a Tsunami zone. The gov gets a beach, they get a hill and some safety. A prefect deal for everyone. But I doubt that will go through, even though its fully supported locally, by the parks, and by our senators, it still has to pass through the Department of Indian Affairs...
The DoIA have a history of killing these types of deals unless there is something like oil, natural gas, or mineral deposits found on the tribal land, then it goes through so fast no one has time to even think about it. The tribes get stuck with an even crappier piece of land... which is really saying something because they got the shaft the first time.
The DoIA is typically a dead end, an idle office that does nothing, especially during the Bush years. For 8 years the dept all but shut down. The Obama administration has pushed it to start processing things again but its so back logged and under funded its still a dead end. "Stupid tree huggin native Americans... Damn blue team hippies! I'll show you by ignoring your Affairs"
The funding issue is likely to get worse as the other Washington hammers out a way to balance its deficit so it can start working on the national debt. What a mess...
Actually, there is a key difference between those two images. The lower image, they are all waving guns. In the US, they are waving iPhones. Yep, we are the scary ones!
Bleh, I didnt mean anything particular by it. It was just that it popped into my head how these celebrations might be seen in a very different light in more america weary parts of the world. Perhaps much in the same way waving of hezbollah flags might be seen in parts of the world that are middle-east weary.
To be quite honest, I'm sick and tired of the fighty-punchy-type people ruining it for everyone else, regardless of their geography/religion/pop idol preferences.
I meant it more as a generalized statement, not necessarily at you. I've seen statements all over the net, that are similar to the sentiment of that image. People asking what the difference is, and how American's are the bad guys for celebrating. For me, the celebrations are extremely different. Many times, the celebrations like the middle eastern one, are celebrating violence. To me, the American celebration is celebrating the end of violence, and hopefully closure to many people.
washington redskins is a sports team to this fucking day, why don't we have an alabama niggers sports team, or a los angeles wetbacks sports team, or San Francisco faggots sports team.
(Arshlevon and Vig)I honestly had no idea the mistreating of Native Americas was that bad, this honestly seems worse than how they treated African-Americans.
Man, with problems like that, how can bagging Osama make ANY difference for the US?
Well, getting rather off topic.
So apparently Osama was a fan of Arsenal.
A terrorist is a fan of Arsenal, it's funny cause, uh
Redskins is not a pleasant name, no doubt, but I never understood that as much cause for outrage. Most teams that have native American mascots treat them about like any other culture's notable figures. Braves and Chiefs aren't really different from Vikings, Cavaliers, Cowboys or Knights. My family came from Ireland, just three generations in America, but I can't see getting upset about Notre Dame's cartoonish mascot or the drunk stereotype of "fighting" Irishmen. The intent with those names, including Redskins, isn't to offend. Inappropriate as they are, I personally wouldn't be concerned unless there's actual ill intent rather than just a fan of a team that was named in a much less sensitive era.
<me pushes Atlanta Braves hat back into closet...>
I would think that after a horrendously monstrous genocide, a little bit of constraint should probably be used when using the name "Redskin".
Back to the original topic, Al Qaeda has released a statement today confirming the death of Osama bin Laden, along with the usual dire threats and warnings. That should confirm the operation more convincingly than a picture of a corpse - you can fake a picture, but I can't imagine any way in which the Obama administration could have conned Al Qaeda into releasing a false death announcement.
Back to the original topic, Al Qaeda has released a statement today confirming the death of Osama bin Laden, along with the usual dire threats and warnings. That should confirm the operation more convincingly than a picture of a corpse - you can fake a picture, but I can't imagine any way in which the Obama administration could have conned Al Qaeda into releasing a false death announcement.
Because we all know Al Quaeda representatives personally and there is absolutely no way to create a fake footage in year 2011...
We´re at 3d art forums for god´s sakes. There are people around here who could make up a person and make it masturbate on film in HD. So why should I believe some crappy footage with some guys with their faces covered and speaking language I don´t understand? For all I know it could be even a cooking program (this last part WAS meant as a joke).
Fuck, dude. "speaking language I don´t understand?"
Really? Don't say things like that, it makes you look like a plant sized moron.
You can speak Arabic? My compliments....
Also why don´t you question/attack the other points I was trying to make? Why are you only using the cheapest shot, furthermore in case you clearly misunderstood what I really meant?
I questioned the cheapest shot because you used that in a list of reasons why you wouldn't believe them.
That's a professionally bad argument. If you're going to construct an argument don't include anything that can be attacked so easily. I.E. everyone who speaks that language would have to be out to deceive you for that to even be conceivable, which is patently false.
I feel like conservatives love building straw men, with pretty little straw hats, and comfy straw houses, while observers of their arguments go "hey, that's a really good point."
It's incredibly frustrating.
And again you misunderstood - that was not an offer for a cheap shot. You misunderstood what I was saying and MADE it into something easy to attack. SO once again, I will write it a bit further just for you, read slowly:
Why should I believe some footage where are people SPEAKING ARABIC (WHICH IS THE LANGUAGE I DONT UNDERSTAND - GOT IT? ARABIC - NOT THE CNN/BBC/I DONT KNOW WHAT ASSHOLES TRANSLATION) + their faces are all covered up (so even if the footage was original, guess how much work would it take to do the lipsynching to put other words in their mouth?), I have no idea who it is and even if their faces were not covered - IT´S 2011 - Look around - Behold, it´s the miracle of 3d art. Making impossible possible... But nope, you can´t fake such thing as a crappy low-quality footage with SOME guys. no sire - not in million years!
clear enough or should I make a picture next time for you?
And all of the sudden, now that you clearly understand what I was really saying, you don´t have anything to attack my post - don´t worry, I got the full picture...
Ghost-D - I don't think your argument holds up anyways, completely aside from the language thing.
You're saying that because YOU specifically can't understand what is happening in the video, and *you* personally can't verify it to be perfectly valid, it should not be believed. So while what you say is clear, it isn't really any sort of argument at all. It's just you stating that it is possible that a video was faked, and expecting that that should in any way be taken seriously.
We take most of our information and belief systems based on second hand information. It is impossible for a person to verify every piece of information personally, and like everyone else I am sure that you do this with most things. So why instantly discount this?
That's not to say we should believe everything we are told, but unless there is a good reason for the evidence provided to be forged, and good evidence that it has been, or if it is coming from a very unreliable source or there is some sort of logical hole... what you're saying really doesn't hold any water. I mean, what evidence would make you believe fully that this is real? You won't ever see the body yourself. Even if you could you wouldn't be able to verify the identity. For the video, even if you could speak the languages and there were no masks, it wouldn't make any difference in whether or not the video is forged. A photo? Could be doctored. Hell, even if you had pulled the trigger itself it could've all been some crazy conspiracy and it was just an imposter.
So I guess that the point is - unless there is a *good* reason to believe everything is a setup, and unless there is evidence to back up that reasoning or it is coming from an unreliable source... I don't understand why you'd even make the argument this could all be faked. Sure it could be, but I just don't see the logical reasoning for someone to forge it, or for any of this to be a big cover up.
Ghost-D - Your argument is quite flawed, completely aside from the language thing.
You're saying that because YOU specifically can't understand what is happening in the video, and *you* personally can't verify it to be perfectly valid, it should not be believed. So while what you say is clear, it isn't really any sort of argument at all. It's just you stating that it is possible that a video was faked, and expecting that that should in any way be taken seriously.
We take most of our information and belief systems based on second hand information. It is impossible for a person to verify every piece of information personally, and like everyone else I am sure that you do this with most things. So why instantly discount this?
That's not to say we should believe everything we are told, but unless there is a good reason for the evidence provided to be forged, and good evidence that it has been, or it is coming from a very unreliable source... what you're saying really doesn't hold any water. I mean, what evidence would make you believe fully that this is real? You won't ever see the body yourself. Even if you could you wouldn't be able to verify the identity. For the video, even if you could speak the languages and there were no masks, it wouldn't make any difference in whether or not the video is forged. A photo? Could be doctored. Hell, even if you had pulled the trigger itself it could've all been some crazy conspiracy and it was just an imposter.
So I guess that the point is - unless there is a *good* reason to believe everything is a setup, and unless there is evidence to back up that reasoning... I don't understand why you'd even make the argument that the video could be faked.
Why it could be faked? Ok, let´s see.
"Laden was using his wife as sheet and she was killed... no, wait, she wasn´t used as a sheet yet she was killed in the shooting... oh, you want Ladens dead body pictures? - ok, so then she wasn´t killed and she confirmed that it was Laden. that should do it, right?... btw. I don´t know how to say it, but Laden wasn´t armed, unlike we said before. Why did we kill him you ask? Well, lemme see... LOOK! IT´S ALQUAEDA!! Did you see that new AL-Quaeda video?! Even they said that Laden is dead, it must be thruth, right? riiiiight? c´mooooon..."
That´s what it feels like when I watch the news. And that´s why I question the footage confirming Ladens death - it just perfectly matches US governments cards. When they for some reason can´t show proofs (do you think that americans would feel bad about seeing Ladens dead body? and taliban is threating US anyway, so why not show them? if such proof exists...), all of the sudden Al-Quaeda makes this statement. Why would they do it? Even if Laden was dead, it would be smarter move to say that he´s still alive and healthy (at least it would drive all Americans nuts, including the farts in the white house) - by confirming his death they only helped the white house. And helping white house shouldn´t be their job, am I right? That´s why I doubt that any such footage isn´t fake. I think it´s one hell of a reason not to believe them...
I questioned the cheapest shot because you used that in a list of reasons why you wouldn't believe them.
That's a professionally bad argument. If you're going to construct an argument don't include anything that can be attacked so easily. I.E. everyone who speaks that language would have to be out to deceive you for that to even be conceivable, which is patently false.
I feel like conservatives love building straw men, with pretty little straw hats, and comfy straw houses, while observers of their arguments go "hey, that's a really good point."
It's incredibly frustrating.
The media's done this before. With Iran's president Ahmadinejad, even to this day the media says that he stated that he was going to wipe Israel off the map. I don't speak that language, how am I going to know what he said? But I've seen multiple documentaries that state that what he actually said was this: "The Imam said this regime occupying jerusalem must vanish from the page of time". What does that mean? It could mean alot of other things than, I'm going to destroy Israel. They twist and manipulate things all the time. Of course people are skeptical when they don't understand a language, are you serious?
The media's done this before. With Iran's president Ahmadinejad, even to this day the media says that he stated that he was going to wipe Israel off the map. I don't speak that language, how am I going to know what he said? But I've seen multiple documentaries that state that what he actually said was this: "The Imam said this regime occupying jerusalem must vanish from the page of time". What does that mean? It could mean alot of other things than, I'm going to destroy Israel. They twist and manipulate things all the time. Of course people are skeptical when they don't understand a language, are you serious?
Just wait for it, lincolnhughes - soon they will come up with the tinfoil hat argument again. I think I got the pattern...
The problem is how do you misinterpret so many times of threats which were directed at the United States or Israel in one phrase or another? Ahmadinejad is not the only Islamic leader calling for BOTH the United States and Israel's destruction. This is daily fact of life for Islamo-radical groups the world over, are you really of the belief that there is no danger?
The problem is how do you misinterpret so many times of threats which were directed at the United States or Israel in one phrase or another? Ahmadinejad is not the only Islamic leader calling for BOTH the United States and Israel's destruction. This is daily fact of life for Islamo-radical groups the world over, are you really of the belief that there is no danger?
There sure as hell was a wake up call on 9-11.
He didn't call for the destruction of Israel though. That was my point. It was a sentence that was completely misdirected so that we're all afraid of Iran.
Whether or not we should be afraid of Iran is a different story. Go watch any documentary on the history of Iran, and you'll understand why a lot of people from there are very very pissed off at the foreign policy of the US. As well as the fact that we just finished invading Iraq, we're also in the process of conquering Afghanistan, and Israel (one of the countries that refuses to join the Non-proliferation treaty) is consistently nagging at the US to attack Iran... Hmmmmmm so now that we're in control of every country surrounding it, I wonder how the people of that country feel. Not to mention the amount of civilians that our governments killed just to get to this point. I wonder how the people of most countries in the middle east feel towards our policy of destroying and conquering their land. Probably not too happy. Justifiably so. Ya...... pissed off rant concluded
Ghost-d, this is a case where I apply occam's razor. There are two possibilities:
One is that things happened more or less at face value. Obama ordered a raid, bin Laden was killed, Al Qaeda's public statements confirm it.
The other is that the raid was a fake, and that bin Laden is either still alive or died years ago. The US and Pakistani governments are both part of this conspiracy, even though it is publicly making Pakistan look bad. Also, the Al Qaeda news release was faked by the US while at the same time no denial from the real Al Qaeda has been published. To make this work, the US has to completely repress any release from Al Qaeda that would deny the US cover-up. Finally, all of that has happened with no leaks, no lies uncovered by the press, and no breakdown in the execution of a very complicated plot.
Which of these two is more likely?
You mention faking an Al-Qaeda video. Yes, that's possible. But it's also possible that a death photo of bin Laden could be faked, too. What proof is enough? Like the apostle Thomas, only seeing the wounds yourself can leave no doubt. Since we can't examine the body, we have to evaluate the information we do have. In my opinion, it is infinitely more likely that the simplest explanation also happens to be the correct one. It usually is.
Replies
Laden was ex-CIA
Got help from America to fight against Russia
Has billions and billions of dollars among thousands of other things
meh, what I was trying to say (my response to GCMP) was that the village, and Pakistan as a whole (citizens), probably didn't know who lives there. I'm sure the president elect at the time, Musharraf, knew all of this... He was crooked as fuck and took a good amount of US money (US sent to Pakistan to be buddies), around $3.6billion a year.
Man Pakistani government is just as corrupt as any other country. Did you guys forget about the Benazir Bhutto assassination... sure they knew about Osama, why not... just another character in the plot of this story.
Does this means the story ends because the bad guy is killed and the prince and princes got married?? Fuck no.
Exactly Mark. It is completely insane to me how many "stupid" Americans wanted us to capture and bring this mass murderer back to the States.
What would that change? Didn't we do that with Hussein, and we were STILL hated anyways.
We were screwed either way, but I am glad we cold fished this evil sack of humanity before he could gloat any more.
It is shameful how we STILL can't get our story straight.
I trust the SEALS over this corrupt administration ANY day.
So you don't think that we were honoring his name? You think it is just another stamp on our blighted history, despite the fact Native Americans are still honored?
MM, get off your moral hand wringings. The US is not a perfect country, but we have done as much as we can to right the wrongs of our past, and no country or ideal is really "free" from corruption.
I don't see the operation name as an insult, but as honoring our "true" heritage. Why do you think so much of our military vehicles/equipment are named after Native Americans? It isn't to shame them but to honor them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 that's how you are really good at it.
NYC has very strict gun laws - which is where the celebration took place.
Most people who lived around there have a friend or family member that died or was effected by it. My best friend's father was pretty much crippled by toxic fume inhalation, my Girlfriend's cousin lucked out and was doing something else when the majority of his fellow firefighters died in the towers - he eventually had the task of trying to retrieve bodies out of the rubble.
I wish I could find the article but a photographer took a bunch of photos around NYC the day after 9/11 of all the shrines and signs calling for peace. It would make a good contrast to alot of the stereotyping going on in here.
This wasn't a country wide celebration from what I've seen, most of the discussion has be fairly introspected and mixed. I had a friend who served in Iraq who came back with some 9/11 hookah tobacco, he said they treated it like a national holiday and sold everything from t-shirts to posters celebrating it. So whoever believes that "same" picture can kindly sit and spin for all I care. When McDonald's sells a Osama's Dead happy meal then maybe we can start making comparisons.
I thought about it like this: my dad died of cancer, if cancer was actually a person and I just heard he'd been shot and killed, yes I'd be happy.
My apologies, Skamberin. I saw your abbreviated post with the picture quoted a few pages back, and jumped on it. Sad thing is, I've seen that correlation made several times on the web.
I agree with you; a celebration of death leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can't say that I wouldn't be extremely pleased with Bin Laden's death, if I had lost someone I cared for during the attack. I'm still pleased that he, personally, can do no more harm. I think I would be equally pleased, had he died of natural causes, though. I'm not one to put on my best flag shirt, head to the streets, and scream "Thank Jesus!".
Anyone ignorant enough to judge an entire nation by a couple hundred people celebrating in the streets is just that... ignorant.
I should have specified that I only meant the Americans celebrating this, like the ones in that picture. I didn't mean to generalize. A friend of mine lost his best friend on 9/11 but he didn't celebrate like this, it won't bring anyone back and I think you're a better person for not sinking to that level, but that's just me.
Sure you can feel some sort of closure and be glad that harm can't be caused onto others anymore, but celebrating it like some sports achievement isn't very becoming of a "modern" country. As for the weapons quip, I did say "if they were allowed", as in, if there was no law against it :P.
And the fact that they celebrate 9/11 like a holiday "over there" is honestly disgusting.
Meanwhile 99% of the population stayed indoors. A few photographs, a rally, and everyone thinks these things become representative of entire peoples.
I am not attacking whoever said that - I just don't understand it.
How does it constitute any kind of justice ? Justice would have been to manage to capture him alive, gather more intel, and witnessing the gradual collapse of the networks behind the attacks - maybe after an uprising coming from this area of the world itself. Who knows! This could span over generations or even centuries.
I don't see how the death of one dude would serve as justice against the thousands of innocent people who died or got affected by 9/11. I don't think any justice will be ever enough to compensate for that. Maybe worldwide peace ? But we are far from that.
I find it quite disrespectful that even the president itself used the word justice in his speech. I am not saying that with OBL in sight, the soldier shouldn't have hit the trigger - especially since their was obviously firearms on both sides. Under the raid circumstances, killing him was certainly necessary, but in my opinion this is not an achievement since I don't think it solves anything. I am puzzled! But I might be missing something, dunno.
Such weird times we live in!
I guess my point is that, hearing about the OBL kill sends me back to these memories and the massive death poll of that day - it makes me sad, and certainly does not put me in a cheering wild crowd celebration mood. Not sure if it makes sense ?
I AIN'T GOT TIME TO BELIEVE.
Bread and circuses..
Congratulations America-haters. Now look what you've done
When I originally posted that comment I never implied that his death would serve as justice against the thousand of innocent people who died or were affected by the attacks of 9/11 (or any other terrorist act done by the Al Queda). There is nothing that can be done to make up for that type of loss. What I was saying is that I am happy that Osama finally answered for what he did. I am happy that after all of the horrible things he has done, he cannot hurt anyone else. He was a poison that preached nothing but hate and misunderstanding. I feel that most American's would say the same.
my grandfather is native american, was raised on a reservation and i take offense to this, this country has done nothing to honor native americans, unless you count fencing them in isolated dirt patches with no water, FBI randomly raiding reservations and shooting men woman and children as "honor".
america has honored the native americans about as much as the nazi's honored the jews, actually less, an estimated 114 million native americans were killed as a direct result of US actions. Nazi Holocaust estimates are between 6 and 11 million. And you guys are all butt hurt about 3 fucking thousand, boo fucking hoo.
washington redskins is a sports team to this fucking day, why don't we have an alabama niggers sports team, or a los angeles wetbacks sports team, or San Francisco faggots sports team.
take all that honor and shove it up your ass.
You think I don't realize all of that bad we have done? Do you also realize the good we have done for Native Americans too? Or do you just see the bad? I think your argument was in extremely poor taste(not to mention low class) and I'd rather not even debate with someone with such poor taste, or blatant disregard for human dignity in general.
I meant no offense from my initial comments. I recognize the bad we have done, but I have also recognized all the good the US Government has done to assist Native Americans. (Tax free Casino's and college grants anyone? among many other things.)
Maybe it will never be enough to mend the wounds, but I think that you really have a lot of hatred, bigotry and ignorance in you to have said the things you said. I can at least acknowledge and look at both sides of something and go from there.
But you, just close it up with a big "shove it up your ass" and have a nice day too!
hoooo boy, you did not just say that
washington redskins is a sports team to this fucking day, why don't we have an alabama niggers sports team, or a los angeles wetbacks sports team, or San Francisco faggots sports team.
take all that honor and shove it up your ass.[/quote]
And this type of "debate" is acceptable to you, Ferg?
EDIT: And I apologize for calling arshlevon a "Prick" but when he said I could take my honor and shove it up my ass, that strikes a nerve with me too. Is that fair? Not too mention all that other extremely vulgar language, really, to use those kinds of words. I had NO idea that the term "Red skins" applied equally to all of those other words he was so kind to have listed!
I honor the Native Americans, I do think it is very tragic what we did to them. But it is also a complete shame that people do not see that we have at least TRIED to make a difference by showing we were sorry for what we did. I never meant to offend anyone, but on that same token, when someone starts saying "boo fucking hoo" about 3,000 Americans dead after the WORST terrorist attack in our nation's history, that also pisses me off.
Make jokes, disregard what happened, but at least I am not mocking the deaths we inflicted on Native Americans during our county's past.
America is really good at warfare because of a Finnish sniper? I don't follow.
the casinos are raided constantly by FBI because its the native americans main source of income, so what they do is come in with a bunch of trucks and take the machines.
so when when i hear someone say america honors native americans its kind of like they just spit in my face. anyway this is thread about bin laden go back to arguing about him still being alive.
Bit of an aside here...
Redskins is not a pleasant name, no doubt, but I never understood that as much cause for outrage. Most teams that have native American mascots treat them about like any other culture's notable figures. Braves and Chiefs aren't really different from Vikings, Cavaliers, Cowboys or Knights. My family came from Ireland, just three generations in America, but I can't see getting upset about Notre Dame's cartoonish mascot or the drunk stereotype of "fighting" Irishmen. The intent with those names, including Redskins, isn't to offend. Inappropriate as they are, I personally wouldn't be concerned unless there's actual ill intent rather than just a fan of a team that was named in a much less sensitive era.
<me pushes Atlanta Braves hat back into closet...>
Rape goes unprosecuted:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12203114
Indian boarding schools:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16516865
If there has been any lifting up and honoring, its been by the Native Americans themselves in spite of the constant abuse and purposeful legal tape aimed at holding them back (The Department of Indian Affairs).
http://www.nativelegalupdate.com/2011/04/articles/quileute-tribe-seeks-higher-ground-to-avoid-tsunamis/
Also the Quileute tribe is looking to do a land swap and move out of a Tsunami zone. The gov gets a beach, they get a hill and some safety. A prefect deal for everyone. But I doubt that will go through, even though its fully supported locally, by the parks, and by our senators, it still has to pass through the Department of Indian Affairs...
The DoIA have a history of killing these types of deals unless there is something like oil, natural gas, or mineral deposits found on the tribal land, then it goes through so fast no one has time to even think about it. The tribes get stuck with an even crappier piece of land... which is really saying something because they got the shaft the first time.
The DoIA is typically a dead end, an idle office that does nothing, especially during the Bush years. For 8 years the dept all but shut down. The Obama administration has pushed it to start processing things again but its so back logged and under funded its still a dead end. "Stupid tree huggin native Americans... Damn blue team hippies! I'll show you by ignoring your Affairs"
The funding issue is likely to get worse as the other Washington hammers out a way to balance its deficit so it can start working on the national debt. What a mess...
Bleh, I didnt mean anything particular by it. It was just that it popped into my head how these celebrations might be seen in a very different light in more america weary parts of the world. Perhaps much in the same way waving of hezbollah flags might be seen in parts of the world that are middle-east weary.
To be quite honest, I'm sick and tired of the fighty-punchy-type people ruining it for everyone else, regardless of their geography/religion/pop idol preferences.
No harm done though
[derail]
You may enjoy this, arshlevon:
[ame]
[/derail]
Anyhoo, Bin Laden is dead. Woot?.. Woot.
Man, with problems like that, how can bagging Osama make ANY difference for the US?
Well, getting rather off topic.
So apparently Osama was a fan of Arsenal.
A terrorist is a fan of Arsenal, it's funny cause, uh
I would think that after a horrendously monstrous genocide, a little bit of constraint should probably be used when using the name "Redskin".
I agree with you 100%.
(I'm joking but there are people who believe that)
Because we all know Al Quaeda representatives personally and there is absolutely no way to create a fake footage in year 2011...
We´re at 3d art forums for god´s sakes. There are people around here who could make up a person and make it masturbate on film in HD. So why should I believe some crappy footage with some guys with their faces covered and speaking language I don´t understand? For all I know it could be even a cooking program (this last part WAS meant as a joke).
I must know these people!
You can speak Arabic? My compliments....
Also why don´t you question/attack the other points I was trying to make? Why are you only using the cheapest shot, furthermore in case you clearly misunderstood what I really meant?
*backs away slowly
And again you misunderstood - that was not an offer for a cheap shot. You misunderstood what I was saying and MADE it into something easy to attack. SO once again, I will write it a bit further just for you, read slowly:
Why should I believe some footage where are people SPEAKING ARABIC (WHICH IS THE LANGUAGE I DONT UNDERSTAND - GOT IT? ARABIC - NOT THE CNN/BBC/I DONT KNOW WHAT ASSHOLES TRANSLATION) + their faces are all covered up (so even if the footage was original, guess how much work would it take to do the lipsynching to put other words in their mouth?), I have no idea who it is and even if their faces were not covered - IT´S 2011 - Look around - Behold, it´s the miracle of 3d art. Making impossible possible... But nope, you can´t fake such thing as a crappy low-quality footage with SOME guys. no sire - not in million years!
clear enough or should I make a picture next time for you?
You're saying that because YOU specifically can't understand what is happening in the video, and *you* personally can't verify it to be perfectly valid, it should not be believed. So while what you say is clear, it isn't really any sort of argument at all. It's just you stating that it is possible that a video was faked, and expecting that that should in any way be taken seriously.
We take most of our information and belief systems based on second hand information. It is impossible for a person to verify every piece of information personally, and like everyone else I am sure that you do this with most things. So why instantly discount this?
That's not to say we should believe everything we are told, but unless there is a good reason for the evidence provided to be forged, and good evidence that it has been, or if it is coming from a very unreliable source or there is some sort of logical hole... what you're saying really doesn't hold any water. I mean, what evidence would make you believe fully that this is real? You won't ever see the body yourself. Even if you could you wouldn't be able to verify the identity. For the video, even if you could speak the languages and there were no masks, it wouldn't make any difference in whether or not the video is forged. A photo? Could be doctored. Hell, even if you had pulled the trigger itself it could've all been some crazy conspiracy and it was just an imposter.
So I guess that the point is - unless there is a *good* reason to believe everything is a setup, and unless there is evidence to back up that reasoning or it is coming from an unreliable source... I don't understand why you'd even make the argument this could all be faked. Sure it could be, but I just don't see the logical reasoning for someone to forge it, or for any of this to be a big cover up.
Mature response indeed. And you are judging me for my opinions?
Why it could be faked? Ok, let´s see.
"Laden was using his wife as sheet and she was killed... no, wait, she wasn´t used as a sheet yet she was killed in the shooting... oh, you want Ladens dead body pictures? - ok, so then she wasn´t killed and she confirmed that it was Laden. that should do it, right?... btw. I don´t know how to say it, but Laden wasn´t armed, unlike we said before. Why did we kill him you ask? Well, lemme see... LOOK! IT´S ALQUAEDA!! Did you see that new AL-Quaeda video?! Even they said that Laden is dead, it must be thruth, right? riiiiight? c´mooooon..."
That´s what it feels like when I watch the news. And that´s why I question the footage confirming Ladens death - it just perfectly matches US governments cards. When they for some reason can´t show proofs (do you think that americans would feel bad about seeing Ladens dead body? and taliban is threating US anyway, so why not show them? if such proof exists...), all of the sudden Al-Quaeda makes this statement. Why would they do it? Even if Laden was dead, it would be smarter move to say that he´s still alive and healthy (at least it would drive all Americans nuts, including the farts in the white house) - by confirming his death they only helped the white house. And helping white house shouldn´t be their job, am I right? That´s why I doubt that any such footage isn´t fake. I think it´s one hell of a reason not to believe them...
cui bono, cui prodest
The media's done this before. With Iran's president Ahmadinejad, even to this day the media says that he stated that he was going to wipe Israel off the map. I don't speak that language, how am I going to know what he said? But I've seen multiple documentaries that state that what he actually said was this: "The Imam said this regime occupying jerusalem must vanish from the page of time". What does that mean? It could mean alot of other things than, I'm going to destroy Israel. They twist and manipulate things all the time. Of course people are skeptical when they don't understand a language, are you serious?
Just wait for it, lincolnhughes - soon they will come up with the tinfoil hat argument again. I think I got the pattern...
http://articles.cnn.com/2005-10-26/world/ahmadinejad_1_israel-jerusalem-day-islamic-world?_s=PM:WORLD
The problem is how do you misinterpret so many times of threats which were directed at the United States or Israel in one phrase or another? Ahmadinejad is not the only Islamic leader calling for BOTH the United States and Israel's destruction. This is daily fact of life for Islamo-radical groups the world over, are you really of the belief that there is no danger?
There sure as hell was a wake up call on 9-11.
He didn't call for the destruction of Israel though. That was my point. It was a sentence that was completely misdirected so that we're all afraid of Iran.
Whether or not we should be afraid of Iran is a different story. Go watch any documentary on the history of Iran, and you'll understand why a lot of people from there are very very pissed off at the foreign policy of the US. As well as the fact that we just finished invading Iraq, we're also in the process of conquering Afghanistan, and Israel (one of the countries that refuses to join the Non-proliferation treaty) is consistently nagging at the US to attack Iran... Hmmmmmm so now that we're in control of every country surrounding it, I wonder how the people of that country feel. Not to mention the amount of civilians that our governments killed just to get to this point. I wonder how the people of most countries in the middle east feel towards our policy of destroying and conquering their land. Probably not too happy. Justifiably so. Ya...... pissed off rant concluded
One is that things happened more or less at face value. Obama ordered a raid, bin Laden was killed, Al Qaeda's public statements confirm it.
The other is that the raid was a fake, and that bin Laden is either still alive or died years ago. The US and Pakistani governments are both part of this conspiracy, even though it is publicly making Pakistan look bad. Also, the Al Qaeda news release was faked by the US while at the same time no denial from the real Al Qaeda has been published. To make this work, the US has to completely repress any release from Al Qaeda that would deny the US cover-up. Finally, all of that has happened with no leaks, no lies uncovered by the press, and no breakdown in the execution of a very complicated plot.
Which of these two is more likely?
You mention faking an Al-Qaeda video. Yes, that's possible. But it's also possible that a death photo of bin Laden could be faked, too. What proof is enough? Like the apostle Thomas, only seeing the wounds yourself can leave no doubt. Since we can't examine the body, we have to evaluate the information we do have. In my opinion, it is infinitely more likely that the simplest explanation also happens to be the correct one. It usually is.
OMG THIS.