This whole situation is disappointing. Mostly because I've really been looking forward to DW V.
I wouldn't feel comfortable supporting DW after this and I wouldn't want to see how the Dominance War looks after this. People on strike against it and the people participating as scabs...
I need another big comp to fill the gap. Bring on the Civil War!
I need another big comp to fill the gap. Bring on the Civil War!
What I'm wondering is if, in the case that Domwar gets canceled or is the last one, can/will Polycount pick up where it left off and run its own Domwar? Or another major yearly competition.
What I'm wondering is if, in the case that Domwar gets canceled or is the last one, can/will Polycount pick up where it left off and run its own Domwar? Or another major yearly competition.
I'm still looking forward to participating, and hoping it gets started in Jan. as originally planned. More comps from other sites are always good, but it has so much momentum from past years that it'll take awhile for another comp. to take hold and have the same amount of participation.
I don't believe this is the last dwar either. I'm pretty sure it was just said that this was the final comp. in this storyline.
Sure dont like the sound of all this business. Not very cool.
Thanks for bringing it to the communities attention Emil as you and the rest of the admins here are always looking out for whats best for the artists and the community here at Polycount which makes it such a great place.
Although my time over at gameartisans was a bit short I was in general not a fan of the direction of the forum and the Dominance war in general.
Like most people I would not be upset to help support a site (hey nothing is free) but the way all of this was presented to the community at large just leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
I don't want to make to many brash comments as I am rather uninformed of the entirety of the situation but in general I want to see as many community based competitive events as possible because they are fun and productive tools for learning.
I've had a busy weekend, so allow me to chime in now on the whole matter.
Emil's post comes off fairly subjective, while reporting on what happened, simply because he is one of the community members here in addition to being an editor and was (is?) pretty fed up with Fred's approach to contests. It could have been written far more objectively, no doubt, but he's a member, supporter, and contributor to the community and wanted to put his 2 cents on the table in addition to filling everyone in as to what is going on. Moving forward, we can save this style of approach to comments if the subjective nature of such a news posts throws mud all over the news itself.
Behind the scenes, we - that is the PC team - often get the impression that Fred's intent on these contests aren't the most respectable. It's fantastic to see communities come together in such events - I personally love these months - but when there's this seemingly underlying motive we cannot, under our best judgement, let it lay privately.
Fred said, in a quote, that upsetting the artists (read: the communities) is not his problem. We discussed the entire matter, and decided to force his hand and make it his problem as the sole organizer of the events.
We do not take issue with Fred wanting to support his site financially so he can pay for hosting, bandwidth, and back-end systems. We 100% understand the importance and frustrations that come with such duties to running a community 'behind the scenes'. However, when such an initiative is taken - where you charge members $2 (yes, even $2) - for a service that would probably be done for free from the community itself - and try to shoe-horn that in to a contest that has already begun, we take issue with it. It felt scheming, unmoral and disrespectful to those who are entering and the rest of the communities. When we brought this up to Fred, his reply made his motives questionable.
Since the artists here at Polycount and the rest of the global community are in our best interest we decided to go public with it, beyond 'Look for the checkbox about selling a package containing your entry'. While the subjective nature of the original News post is an approach we won't take so heavily in the future the News itself is something we would definitely share again if given the chance.
Contest should be about challenging people to do their very best art work, under tight restrictions and deadlines, all within a compelling theme. From that, exposure will come to all participating artists AND the communities & websites that are involved. That alone is priceless on all fronts and should never be tainted by admission fee's, premium services, or any other method of revenue that is in direct relation to the contest.
With that said, many people have brought up the idea of Polycount running its own contest. I will say this: We hear you. We have a small team working with publishers, developers and sponsors to bring you guys a contest to the scale of Dominance War while making it effective, efficient and something that can actually be organized.
Our Polycount Pack contest was a test run on our approach to contests: Have the sponsors, prizes, judges and deadlines setup and approved BEFORE the contest is ever even announced. We did this with Valve leading up to the website and contest launch back in May and it went off without a hitch and we'll do it with our next one. So trust me, we hear you, and we're aiming to give you guys what you want.
it would be nice if the write up was : Making a Fucking Kick as character model..chooseing either green or Black army..and then add some specs on texture budget, triangles etc...
~ Kinda sad to see the ties of PC and GA die, there was so much fun over the years but I guess shit just got too real.
That's a bit of an overstatement. I personally dig the artists at GameArtisans and enjoy watching them grow. I just don't enjoy it when our community is effected in such a way as mentioned in the OP.
That's a bit of an overstatement. I personally dig the artists at GameArtisans and enjoy watching them grow. I just don't enjoy it when our community is effected in such a way as mentioned in the OP.
~ Nobody's putting any of this on you or the PC admins Adam. I hear ya.
Shit's just a sad state of affairs; that's all I'm saying.
Adam you one handed wonder, your words really hit the spot.
I was really hoping there was some kind of misunderstanding in Freds actions, but given that quote, and your saying that you guys have been getting bad vibes for years... Along side the history of dominance war slip ups.. I'm more than inclined to forgive the trollish nature of Emil's post.
Something like this needed to have a big disclaimer for sure. as I'm sure there are as many professional artists as aspiring artists participating in the Dominance War. Contractually, i'm sure not many employers would be pleased with someone or some group profiting off of their artist's work - regardless of the intentions of maintaining a community.
Money always fucks shit up
Couldn't this have been solved by asking for a $5 entry fee? Don't thin 5 bucks would put many people out - sure there are currency conversions to worry about, but with the volume of people entering i'm sure that could have been a more harmless method of generating some income to help maintain and run the competitions.
~ Wait. I should pay to make my own art? Uh... no thanks.
you wouldn't be paying to make your art, you'd be paying to enter his contest, and helping to pay for the prizes you're competing for. It's not an uncommon practice.
you wouldn't be paying to make your art, you'd be paying to enter his contest, and helping to pay for the prizes you're competing for. It's not an uncommon practice.
Yea normally contests are run like a poker tournament. You pay your fee you get in and if you play your cards right you walk out with more than you did when you walked in. Either way the cost of admission is the cost of playing the game, it funds the prize and makes sure things go smooth as well as filtering out the people with a passing interest who are only going to gum up the works with total crap.
Money itself isn't too big of a problem, it never is. It's how the money is handled and the lack of organization that cock it all up. If things where organized there wouldn't be much of a problem, there wouldn't be cash flow issues and there wouldn't be 18 pages of crying.
After every DW we hope for more organization and transparency. But we typically get treated to the opposite.
Yea normally contests are run like a poker tournament. You pay your fee you get in and if you play your cards right you walk out with more than you did when you walked in. Either way the cost of admission is the cost of playing the game, it funds the prize and makes sure things go smooth as well as filtering out the people with a passing interest who are only going to gum up the works with total crap.
Money itself isn't too big of a problem, it never is. It's how the money is handled and the lack of organization that cock it all up. If things where organized there wouldn't be much of a problem, there wouldn't be cash flow issues and there wouldn't be 18 pages of crying.
After every DW we hope for more organization and transparency. But we typically get treated to the opposite.
The problem with this is that this isnt a poker tornoment. The main goal of people who compete I feel isnt to win the prizes at the end. It to compete with other artists, share in a sense of community and push themselfs to be better artists. Sure prizes are nice if you win but I just don't feel that people who are entering these contests are in it for the prizes.
Im sure if there was like a dollar or two admission fee most people would be fine with that as its not to much but I foresee that discouraging people away from the contests instead of helping make the prizes/how its run go any better. People who are new and inexperienced wouldn't want to join because it costs money and chances are they know they wont place. Instead of entering like they do now to learn and attempt to get better I see more people, epically those learning wont enter at all, hurting the contest in the end.
This whole money situation is just not how I think these contests should go. They should be about artists and the challenge to compete with others to better themselves, help the community learn by posting how they are going about the contest and have some fun. Not about prizes and trying to make a quick buck off the work of the artists that should be made freely available for all those wishing to learn.
GA hosts a ton of contests that have no prizes attached to them and they all get a nice turn out. If Dominance War, Comicon and Unearthly lost there prizes I don't see it hurting the contests as much as I see having some kind of admission fee.
Yea I was trying to back you up, not read you the riot act just to be clear... but for some reason when you quote someone who quotes someone else, it only quotes the latest...
On a side note, does anyone know how to fix it, the multi quote thing doesn't seem to do anything differently?
@ autocon, I totally agree, for me personally none of the prizes have been what has enticed me to enter they take a back seat to everything else that makes the contests great. I think they screw up more than they've helped. They could of been a good addition a nice pat on the back in addition to winning but they've been handled so poorly in the past.
If there is to be a er... uh. "Civil War", then, might I preemptively demand that full frontal nudity, as well as hugenormous disembodies cocks will not only be allowed by the rules, but demanded by them as a condition of victory!
LOLLLL!!!!!!
My Dream was to compete in a Dominance War contest along the line of my ...learning path? lol I hope this is not the end of Dominance War : O
~ Wait. I should pay to make my own art? Uh... no thanks.
Like Adam said; "community competitions should never be tainted by admission fee's, premium services, or any other method of revenue"
You're already giving up a shitload of free time that is irreplaceable. That's cost enough.
as others said, you're not paying to make your art. thats ridiculous My thought was it as an entry fee similar to talent shows, etc. It isn't the same exact concept as the poker tourney example - but is similar in that people get together, and use objects and tools to show skill to better the competition. Those that are skillful advance, and those that don't got their name out with minmal losses - but those that succeed are rewarded for their efforts.
You never have to pay to make anything, but i think asking for an entry fee for a competition that offers top-dollar prices is not unacceptable. It would also put more pressure on sponsors & competition judges and organizers to ensure prizes reach the people entering.
my bigger point was that having a "selling art via promo packages" would possibly conflict with professionals entering the contest due to contractual restrictions with their employers - since there are many places that own any and all related art you do while under contract. without the sale, its permission to use for personal status/use instead of another organization earning profits.
If there is to be a er... uh. "Civil War", then, might I preemptively demand that full frontal nudity, as well as hugenormous disembodies cocks will not only be allowed by the rules, but demanded by them as a condition of victory!
this!
the penis tank must not be the end, it must be the beginning
If there is to be a er... uh. "Civil War", then, might I preemptively demand that full frontal nudity, as well as hugenormous disembodies cocks will not only be allowed by the rules, but demanded by them as a condition of victory!
I consider Dominance War to be like the Olympics of CG character art. Sure to some extent money, sponsorships and prizes are involved but ultimately those competing (or at least those who finish) know the most important thing is producing a good portfolio piece and growing as an artist. Winning the contest is a prize in itself as it's something that gains the attention of employers respect and reverence from your peers. Entering Dominance War for the prizes is like training for the Olympics in hopes that you might get a free bowl of Wheaties out of it...especially since those Wheaties wouldn't even arrive before they expired.
That's maybe why it was so concerning at first to read that GA would be selling the hard work of the artists who enter without giving a cut back to the artists or the forums they belong to. It disrespects the spirit of the contest and the intentions the artists bring to the competition. Emil was right to be outraged and right to be a part of the group asking for the option to opt out. Fred for his part added the option and has put DW V on delay likely to remove this whole ugly business from the submissions page. Nothing I've read suggests that there's any repercussions for saying "no". Lets not burn any bridges or start any flame wars too soon. The only people this would hurt would be artists looking for a grand stage to display their talent and learn a bit about character art.
Ultimately though Dominance War has become bigger than Game Artisans or Polycount or any individual forum. The spirit of the competition cannot be soiled by any one person's poor choices. Even if the party has to be moved here to Polycount all that means is we'll be able to put dicks and gore into our entries.
thanks for fillin' us in Adam! I'd very much like to see a PC contest like DW, and I can say from my own experience, the way you guys handle it is the only one to succeed: plan -> prepare -> announce! and yes it is most important thing to keep your trap shut tightly until everything falls into place damn, I am looking forward to see this happen :poly142:
Replies
[ame]
I wouldn't feel comfortable supporting DW after this and I wouldn't want to see how the Dominance War looks after this. People on strike against it and the people participating as scabs...
I need another big comp to fill the gap. Bring on the Civil War!
What I'm wondering is if, in the case that Domwar gets canceled or is the last one, can/will Polycount pick up where it left off and run its own Domwar? Or another major yearly competition.
yeah, let's um, avoid this.
keep it small, keep it civil, and make it war.
no prizes, just a banner and signature tag.
nothing bigger than the Beat'EmUp challenge.
I don't believe this is the last dwar either. I'm pretty sure it was just said that this was the final comp. in this storyline.
I love a good farting contest! Tyne and wear champ 93-96. Ahh the memories.....
Anyhoo. Fifth'ded on the civil war thing. It could be EPIC!
No prizes, Simple judging system, maybe community poll judging of somekind, and I get to be on Jouste's team if he's up for it :P...simples
black vs green man, I'm still down
Thanks for bringing it to the communities attention Emil as you and the rest of the admins here are always looking out for whats best for the artists and the community here at Polycount which makes it such a great place.
with civil war upon us i can only produce this
Although my time over at gameartisans was a bit short I was in general not a fan of the direction of the forum and the Dominance war in general.
Like most people I would not be upset to help support a site (hey nothing is free) but the way all of this was presented to the community at large just leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
I don't want to make to many brash comments as I am rather uninformed of the entirety of the situation but in general I want to see as many community based competitive events as possible because they are fun and productive tools for learning.
With that said, polycount civil war!!!
Emil's post comes off fairly subjective, while reporting on what happened, simply because he is one of the community members here in addition to being an editor and was (is?) pretty fed up with Fred's approach to contests. It could have been written far more objectively, no doubt, but he's a member, supporter, and contributor to the community and wanted to put his 2 cents on the table in addition to filling everyone in as to what is going on. Moving forward, we can save this style of approach to comments if the subjective nature of such a news posts throws mud all over the news itself.
Behind the scenes, we - that is the PC team - often get the impression that Fred's intent on these contests aren't the most respectable. It's fantastic to see communities come together in such events - I personally love these months - but when there's this seemingly underlying motive we cannot, under our best judgement, let it lay privately.
Fred said, in a quote, that upsetting the artists (read: the communities) is not his problem. We discussed the entire matter, and decided to force his hand and make it his problem as the sole organizer of the events.
We do not take issue with Fred wanting to support his site financially so he can pay for hosting, bandwidth, and back-end systems. We 100% understand the importance and frustrations that come with such duties to running a community 'behind the scenes'. However, when such an initiative is taken - where you charge members $2 (yes, even $2) - for a service that would probably be done for free from the community itself - and try to shoe-horn that in to a contest that has already begun, we take issue with it. It felt scheming, unmoral and disrespectful to those who are entering and the rest of the communities. When we brought this up to Fred, his reply made his motives questionable.
Since the artists here at Polycount and the rest of the global community are in our best interest we decided to go public with it, beyond 'Look for the checkbox about selling a package containing your entry'. While the subjective nature of the original News post is an approach we won't take so heavily in the future the News itself is something we would definitely share again if given the chance.
Contest should be about challenging people to do their very best art work, under tight restrictions and deadlines, all within a compelling theme. From that, exposure will come to all participating artists AND the communities & websites that are involved. That alone is priceless on all fronts and should never be tainted by admission fee's, premium services, or any other method of revenue that is in direct relation to the contest.
With that said, many people have brought up the idea of Polycount running its own contest. I will say this: We hear you. We have a small team working with publishers, developers and sponsors to bring you guys a contest to the scale of Dominance War while making it effective, efficient and something that can actually be organized.
Our Polycount Pack contest was a test run on our approach to contests: Have the sponsors, prizes, judges and deadlines setup and approved BEFORE the contest is ever even announced. We did this with Valve leading up to the website and contest launch back in May and it went off without a hitch and we'll do it with our next one. So trust me, we hear you, and we're aiming to give you guys what you want.
-Adam
Can we just move the fuck on now please and make cool shit again?
That's a bit of an overstatement. I personally dig the artists at GameArtisans and enjoy watching them grow. I just don't enjoy it when our community is effected in such a way as mentioned in the OP.
~ Nobody's putting any of this on you or the PC admins Adam. I hear ya.
Shit's just a sad state of affairs; that's all I'm saying.
just sayin'. :P
Maximum respect for this post dude, with burnt, mangled hand and all.
:poly127:
I was really hoping there was some kind of misunderstanding in Freds actions, but given that quote, and your saying that you guys have been getting bad vibes for years... Along side the history of dominance war slip ups.. I'm more than inclined to forgive the trollish nature of Emil's post.
Good news about the comp ideas, mind!
Something like this needed to have a big disclaimer for sure. as I'm sure there are as many professional artists as aspiring artists participating in the Dominance War. Contractually, i'm sure not many employers would be pleased with someone or some group profiting off of their artist's work - regardless of the intentions of maintaining a community.
Money always fucks shit up
Couldn't this have been solved by asking for a $5 entry fee? Don't thin 5 bucks would put many people out - sure there are currency conversions to worry about, but with the volume of people entering i'm sure that could have been a more harmless method of generating some income to help maintain and run the competitions.
~ Wait. I should pay to make my own art? Uh... no thanks.
Like Adam said; "community competitions should never be tainted by admission fee's, premium services, or any other method of revenue"
You're already giving up a shitload of free time that is irreplaceable. That's cost enough.
you wouldn't be paying to make your art, you'd be paying to enter his contest, and helping to pay for the prizes you're competing for. It's not an uncommon practice.
those are some cute puppies and kitties! :poly142:
a bg pc challenge sounds great
Money itself isn't too big of a problem, it never is. It's how the money is handled and the lack of organization that cock it all up. If things where organized there wouldn't be much of a problem, there wouldn't be cash flow issues and there wouldn't be 18 pages of crying.
After every DW we hope for more organization and transparency. But we typically get treated to the opposite.
Yup, I agree with you completely.
Im sure if there was like a dollar or two admission fee most people would be fine with that as its not to much but I foresee that discouraging people away from the contests instead of helping make the prizes/how its run go any better. People who are new and inexperienced wouldn't want to join because it costs money and chances are they know they wont place. Instead of entering like they do now to learn and attempt to get better I see more people, epically those learning wont enter at all, hurting the contest in the end.
This whole money situation is just not how I think these contests should go. They should be about artists and the challenge to compete with others to better themselves, help the community learn by posting how they are going about the contest and have some fun. Not about prizes and trying to make a quick buck off the work of the artists that should be made freely available for all those wishing to learn.
GA hosts a ton of contests that have no prizes attached to them and they all get a nice turn out. If Dominance War, Comicon and Unearthly lost there prizes I don't see it hurting the contests as much as I see having some kind of admission fee.
On a side note, does anyone know how to fix it, the multi quote thing doesn't seem to do anything differently?
@ autocon, I totally agree, for me personally none of the prizes have been what has enticed me to enter they take a back seat to everything else that makes the contests great. I think they screw up more than they've helped. They could of been a good addition a nice pat on the back in addition to winning but they've been handled so poorly in the past.
LOLLLL!!!!!!
My Dream was to compete in a Dominance War contest along the line of my ...learning path? lol I hope this is not the end of Dominance War : O
as others said, you're not paying to make your art. thats ridiculous
You never have to pay to make anything, but i think asking for an entry fee for a competition that offers top-dollar prices is not unacceptable. It would also put more pressure on sponsors & competition judges and organizers to ensure prizes reach the people entering.
my bigger point was that having a "selling art via promo packages" would possibly conflict with professionals entering the contest due to contractual restrictions with their employers - since there are many places that own any and all related art you do while under contract. without the sale, its permission to use for personal status/use instead of another organization earning profits.
the penis tank must not be the end, it must be the beginning
seems like a good reason to sign up here...
Do it!
THEY TEWK OUR JEEERRRBS!
That's maybe why it was so concerning at first to read that GA would be selling the hard work of the artists who enter without giving a cut back to the artists or the forums they belong to. It disrespects the spirit of the contest and the intentions the artists bring to the competition. Emil was right to be outraged and right to be a part of the group asking for the option to opt out. Fred for his part added the option and has put DW V on delay likely to remove this whole ugly business from the submissions page. Nothing I've read suggests that there's any repercussions for saying "no". Lets not burn any bridges or start any flame wars too soon. The only people this would hurt would be artists looking for a grand stage to display their talent and learn a bit about character art.
Ultimately though Dominance War has become bigger than Game Artisans or Polycount or any individual forum. The spirit of the competition cannot be soiled by any one person's poor choices. Even if the party has to be moved here to Polycount all that means is we'll be able to put dicks and gore into our entries.
TLDR:
At first I was like:
[ame]
Then I was all:
[ame]
one of these is getting tattooed on me!
i will let your imagination soar like reading rainbow as to which bodily locale it will be.
How much for the movie rights? This thing will be bitchin' on Lifetime.