About the prize, I still didn't get anything from the Unearthly challenge. The funniest thing is that actually I didn't even get a notification or any mail for my 3rd place, I just saw it by myself on the website....
After the cluster fuck of Unearthly Challenge i sworn off entering any other competitions that GA hosts, I understand it takes alot of time to get everything sorted out but if its too big for you dont do them.
Word. If someone worthwhile started hosting big game-art challenges I'd think GA would be a bit fucked... especially if that "other" kept their promises and didn't delay everything. Hell. At this point Fred even delays the delays...
Also. I don't dig the withholding of information he does.
Nah. That shit ain't for me anymore. If polycount hosts a big comp I'd think Fred would be a bit scared.
this really leaves a sour taste in my mouth how it was going to be compulsory and only bought to light at the end of the competition. He should of contacted artists individually after the competition and asked for permission that way, unfortunately its just another poor decision on his end.
I don't see the the issue here. The original post was just to let people know that their art might be used in a way that they are unaware of. Even though I dont agree with the business tactics with those over at Game Artisans, in the end its their decision. We here at Polycount need to start our own competitions . I would be more willing to participate because overall, I think Polycount is a more reputable site. This is not to say we still cannot collaborate with those over at Game Artisans.
Let's not be mad at GA.. They are a forum of great artists and regular joes trying to build a community, like us. I don't think we should be mad at Fred either, maybe more curious, confused, and pondering. We should at least hear his side of the story before we start name calling or build giant robots to destroy their fortress...or even worse.. in old polycount fashion, draw GA logos with weiners on it.
I can understand selling prints of artists' work and taking a cut of the profits, a bit like how Apple work in their app store, 70/30. 70% for the artist.
I don't think we should be mad at Fred either, maybe more curious, confused, and pondering.
seriously if this wasn't a artist driven contest, he would be sued for fraud any second - why expand every year, why tell the people you have more prices which don't exist? its pretty much fucked up, because as if ANY of the winners would need a new ps3 or wacom tablet or something, if its about the money, fine let the people win some licenses, they are virtual they are free to generate for autodesk/pixologic/whoever, i doubt any of the artists who won that thing in the last few years did it for the prices, they could have made more money from it just by selling the models or taking a freelance gig in this period of time, but no - they participated in something thats fun, challenging, something to learn from and give the community something to grow with, i doubt most people (not only the winners, who are high profile artists anyways) did it for the bling. and thats what it makes all so wrong, he appeared to be bigger than he is, it looked like well planned contests based on sponsored prices but its not, and well as said before if it wouldn't be based around some enthusiastic artists and a company would have been behind it, no one would question it beeing a fraud.
I don't see the the issue here. The original post was just to let people know that their art might be used in a way that they are unaware of.
It should have been just that.
The news and its message wasn't stated very clearly or professionally. Issues arise when things become personal and drama is stirred up.
The communities shouldn't be dragged into drama that would be better left in emails. Their community is comprised of smart and talented video game artists, like us. Some, are the very same. Hating on them in this light doesn't seem appropriate.
The game artist community, and more, as a whole, enjoy the DW events, no matter their delays, prizes, or other BS. It's about the artwork and learning how it's made.
The news and its message wasn't stated very clearly or professionally. Issues arise when things become personal and drama is stirred up.
The communities shouldn't be dragged into drama that would be better left in emails.
~ Agreed.
Thanks for letting us know, Emil. Though keeping it professional would have made this shit so, Cash.
I think the pitchforks need to be put away.
This could have all been avoided if the reply email stated:
"this pack isn't really profitable, and is solely to help run the cost of the heavyweight bandwidth domwar costs. I'll make sure everybody understands this on the submission page"
Essentially though, no need to get guns out on Fred, but Careful wording could maybe have caused much more damage control.
its very strange that he (Fred) hasnt released more info on what he intends to use the funds for.
Ill be sure to read the unearthly challenge agreement page very carfully and consult the good moderators at polycount to make sure nothing like this gets pulled when I compete.
Also, ill be waiting for an official info release from Fred beffor I make up my mind about him.
I wanna throw in my 2c, because damn, this thing has blown up fast!
For one, I do think Emil, and by extension Polycount, reacted a bit strongly to this. And before anyone denies it - You used fucking dollar symbols in the background of the header image, It's as if you where trying to incite a flame war!
That said, the way GA has handles this has been abysmal. Not telling entrants about this condition before hand was flat out wrong, as was not including an opt out option until pressed. And now shutting down the competition feels like a very immature way of handling things. CGHub announced it quite well, "we are disappointed..." etc.
Finally I'll say this - AcrobatFly hit the nail on the head over at GA - GA needs to make some money to cover the costs of the competition, and would have already been using the winners artwork to promote the site and competition as they have been already. On it's own, 'selling' entrants artwork is not inherently bad. GA would already be using your art to make money through advertising. I would add that how often have you seen a games artist sell prints of their work? Are you going to be making money off your entry aside from the competition?
Whats sour with the whole thing is the lack of transparency and the coldness from GA on the subject, which makes the whole affair feel about 10x more shifty.
Also, Fred hinted GA is in some financial trouble? I don't post on GA but I'd hate to loose the site, regardless of how they handle competitions.
Same old news, "pity us and our financial troubles as we take on more and more responsibilities that we have shown time and time again that we cannot handle financially or otherwise." It's getting a bit old and one has to wonder why GA routinely overextends themselves. If it's really all the fruitless hassle they make it out to be, we would be doing them a favor by not participating any longer in these things.
It's not that we're angry at one (possibly misunderstood) event, it's that it's possible to draw a line through all the consistent expansions of the competition despite not having the manpower to support it, the setting up of a studio despite not having any funds and now the undocumented for-profit use of the assets. It's easy to think this competition has become an exploitation of the game art community.
If you don't pay someone for their art, you don't sell it.
"Thanks for sharing Dustin. Looks like I am going to have to write something about this. I guess it's about time the truth came out about the state of GA Sad really..."
Maybe a desperate attempt to save GA? This was suppose to be the last DW I believe and you don't end something that popular just because.
I, too, think that this is only one manifestation of the problems of the DomWar. Aside of the technical problems, delays, and the need to resort to things like this, it isn't getting any more fun.
For one thing, it's hard to have a rivalry with Koreans or Russians. For another, it's hard to keep track of a thousand entries.
I think if we were to split Polycount into two, and had a DomWar-esque battle between these two sides, we'd have at least as much fun, probably a better organisation, and no problems like the one this thread is about.
All i want is to make something cool and have people see it.
While DomWar is a cool comp, you don't need it to complete such a task.
I hope Fred doesn't drop DW5 into the mist, or the site (there's just that grey area of speculation until we hear about the "financial disarray" of GA).
Yes, we should do a PC civil war. I would love that. Keep it small and friendly. Plenty of penis tank battles to be had.
Hazardous: I am SHOCKED at your decision to stop visiting/posting/competing at GA. Seriously man. You are very, very frequent over there! When I read your post, I said to myself, "wow! this shit is serious!!!".
Whatever happened to a friendly competition between rival forums? Mo' money mo' problems, am I right guys?
For some reason, this doesn't sit too well with me. I get that funds are needed to run this sort of thing (though, no one asked for it to be this Xtreme and fancy) but it seems kind of scummy to charge people money for images they could just find on their own with no extra "behind the scenes" or extra information.
It would be nice if these funds actually made the competitions we participate in run smoothly rather than opening a studio %5 of us will ever visit...just sayin'
Agreed. I don't like that it is billed as a friendly forum fight and then money gets stuffed in there. Every other board also has costs to cover. They get hammered by DW almost as much but nothing helps defray their costs, especially if they win. While those boards aren't coughing up cash, prizes or DW bandwidth I don't think GA should have to shoulder that burden either, precieved or not.
GA needs to be a separate thing that plugs into DW fairly like all the other forums do. It can thank GA for giving birth to it, but its time to spread its wings and realize that its not a GA competition but its DW and it stands on its own.
GA's heavy participation in the backbone of DW has not really sat right with me over the years. I've thought since DW2 that GA and DW need to become separate entities and the proceeds from DW need to stay in DW to fund prizes, independent judges and future contests, not the GA boards or the GA studio.
The only problem I have with it was it being sneaky and underhanded, and you aren't informed exactly how its being sold and where the money was going to, if Fred was like hey, I using a lot of band width and I'd like to give out a cut to the winners, it'd be fine and cool with anyone here.
DW is great for learning and getting useful feedback in your wip thread while seeing other peoples take and workflow on the same subject.
I really don't get why people always try to make money the wrong way. Why not just sell posters, or make artbooks with a collection of the greatest entries of DW. I don't think people would mind having their renders shown that way (if they get a free copy of the book in return). Maybe have some of the top 3 artists do a full workflow overview in that same book or have a DVD tutorial release with the DW brand on it.
Selling the models without giving any compensation to the artist that made them is just wrong
If someone could put it into perspective for me I would really appreciate it. How much does it cost to run a site like this or GameArtisans for a day/week/month?
The reason people are mad is because it's the same shoddy handling of the situation as usual.
Everybody CARES about DW, obviously. It's been a really cool thing for all the communities. It's been insane to organize and produce, I'm sure. Everybody wants to see it stay.
We also want to see it better organized. If Fred had ASKED the communities about this option at the outset, there would be no rage. Even so, I don't think we have grounds to be upset. I've never spent a dime on it so I really can't claim to be owed anything. I've never volunteered to help out, so I don't feel like I have room to complain.
If you choose to not enter or care about the contest because of how it's run, that's a perfectly reasonable reaction. However, name calling and flared tempers are out of line unless you personally have had something taken from you (like Emil and his time).
Somebody told me: "Gay Fartisans".
But seriously, it was potentially corrupt from the beginning.
Polycount is big now, it should start its own, fart-free contest. Do it!
Hazardous: I am SHOCKED at your decision to stop visiting/posting/competing at GA. Seriously man. You are very, very frequent over there! When I read your post, I said to myself, "wow! this shit is serious!!!".
Sorry man, it might seem extreme, but I refuse to support / encourage traffic to any entity that takes advantage of artists, monetary or otherwise. Whether I have the choice to opt in or not, is irrelevant, and the dollar figure is also irrelevant.
If when I submitted an image at deviantart and I came to a page that said, ' hey do you mind if I take your image and sell it - and not give you any of the profits?
I would stop supporting that site too - At least at turbosquid they make it pretty damned clear what your getting into and SOME of the profits go back to the content generators.
If he needs money to run things better, he should look elsewhere for funding, NOT take advantage of the very people that make his business a success. He has a gallery, he is teaching students etc etc these things don't spring up out of nowhere, and these are certainly not the exploits of a starving artist.
In my experience, if things look shady on the outer crust it is a seething, swirling cesspool on the inside. You cant polish a turd.
This whole thing is is just so out of alignment with my own principals!
EDIT: Also, regarding this 'post of truth' thats forthcoming, I'm compelled to say that after an uproar at the end of every contest in the past couple of years, there is one of these large posts regarding 'how much effort goes in, and how its only fred, and how he has no money, and hes giving up all of his time to do this, so give him a break' time after time.
Now I'm guessing and I stress GUESSING, its going to be another heartfelt plea, something really big and impactful, that will win the populous over again.
Replies
Not everything has to be done for financial gain... I hate society nowadays!
I´m also pondering how many people will press Yes on that submission form just for fear of having their entry thought less of.
An unfounded thought im sure, but it sorta defeats the purpose of the thing.
Word. If someone worthwhile started hosting big game-art challenges I'd think GA would be a bit fucked... especially if that "other" kept their promises and didn't delay everything. Hell. At this point Fred even delays the delays...
Also. I don't dig the withholding of information he does.
Nah. That shit ain't for me anymore. If polycount hosts a big comp I'd think Fred would be a bit scared.
Nah just joking.
I don't see the the issue here. The original post was just to let people know that their art might be used in a way that they are unaware of. Even though I dont agree with the business tactics with those over at Game Artisans, in the end its their decision. We here at Polycount need to start our own competitions
seriously if this wasn't a artist driven contest, he would be sued for fraud any second - why expand every year, why tell the people you have more prices which don't exist? its pretty much fucked up, because as if ANY of the winners would need a new ps3 or wacom tablet or something, if its about the money, fine let the people win some licenses, they are virtual they are free to generate for autodesk/pixologic/whoever, i doubt any of the artists who won that thing in the last few years did it for the prices, they could have made more money from it just by selling the models or taking a freelance gig in this period of time, but no - they participated in something thats fun, challenging, something to learn from and give the community something to grow with, i doubt most people (not only the winners, who are high profile artists anyways) did it for the bling. and thats what it makes all so wrong, he appeared to be bigger than he is, it looked like well planned contests based on sponsored prices but its not, and well as said before if it wouldn't be based around some enthusiastic artists and a company would have been behind it, no one would question it beeing a fraud.
It should have been just that.
The news and its message wasn't stated very clearly or professionally. Issues arise when things become personal and drama is stirred up.
The communities shouldn't be dragged into drama that would be better left in emails. Their community is comprised of smart and talented video game artists, like us. Some, are the very same. Hating on them in this light doesn't seem appropriate.
The game artist community, and more, as a whole, enjoy the DW events, no matter their delays, prizes, or other BS. It's about the artwork and learning how it's made.
~ Agreed.
Thanks for letting us know, Emil. Though keeping it professional would have made this shit so, Cash.
I think the pitchforks need to be put away.
This could have all been avoided if the reply email stated:
"this pack isn't really profitable, and is solely to help run the cost of the heavyweight bandwidth domwar costs. I'll make sure everybody understands this on the submission page"
Essentially though, no need to get guns out on Fred, but Careful wording could maybe have caused much more damage control.
Ill be sure to read the unearthly challenge agreement page very carfully and consult the good moderators at polycount to make sure nothing like this gets pulled when I compete.
Also, ill be waiting for an official info release from Fred beffor I make up my mind about him.
For one, I do think Emil, and by extension Polycount, reacted a bit strongly to this. And before anyone denies it - You used fucking dollar symbols in the background of the header image, It's as if you where trying to incite a flame war!
That said, the way GA has handles this has been abysmal. Not telling entrants about this condition before hand was flat out wrong, as was not including an opt out option until pressed. And now shutting down the competition feels like a very immature way of handling things. CGHub announced it quite well, "we are disappointed..." etc.
Finally I'll say this - AcrobatFly hit the nail on the head over at GA - GA needs to make some money to cover the costs of the competition, and would have already been using the winners artwork to promote the site and competition as they have been already. On it's own, 'selling' entrants artwork is not inherently bad. GA would already be using your art to make money through advertising. I would add that how often have you seen a games artist sell prints of their work? Are you going to be making money off your entry aside from the competition?
Whats sour with the whole thing is the lack of transparency and the coldness from GA on the subject, which makes the whole affair feel about 10x more shifty.
Also, Fred hinted GA is in some financial trouble?
~Polycount4Lyfe, Fearian.
[ame="
It's not that we're angry at one (possibly misunderstood) event, it's that it's possible to draw a line through all the consistent expansions of the competition despite not having the manpower to support it, the setting up of a studio despite not having any funds and now the undocumented for-profit use of the assets. It's easy to think this competition has become an exploitation of the game art community.
If you don't pay someone for their art, you don't sell it.
"Thanks for sharing Dustin. Looks like I am going to have to write something about this. I guess it's about time the truth came out about the state of GA
Maybe a desperate attempt to save GA? This was suppose to be the last DW I believe and you don't end something that popular just because.
That was found in this thread which I'm sure got created because of THIS thread - http://www.gameartisans.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18042
Oh, and I don't agree with popping this up on artist when the pre-comp already started but seems like some people are over reacting a bit I think.
For one thing, it's hard to have a rivalry with Koreans or Russians. For another, it's hard to keep track of a thousand entries.
I think if we were to split Polycount into two, and had a DomWar-esque battle between these two sides, we'd have at least as much fun, probably a better organisation, and no problems like the one this thread is about.
... This all seems a symptom of biting off more that one can chew...
While DomWar is a cool comp, you don't need it to complete such a task.
I hope Fred doesn't drop DW5 into the mist, or the site (there's just that grey area of speculation until we hear about the "financial disarray" of GA).
Yes, we should do a PC civil war. I would love that. Keep it small and friendly. Plenty of penis tank battles to be had.
Hazardous: I am SHOCKED at your decision to stop visiting/posting/competing at GA. Seriously man. You are very, very frequent over there! When I read your post, I said to myself, "wow! this shit is serious!!!".
GA needs to be a separate thing that plugs into DW fairly like all the other forums do. It can thank GA for giving birth to it, but its time to spread its wings and realize that its not a GA competition but its DW and it stands on its own.
GA's heavy participation in the backbone of DW has not really sat right with me over the years. I've thought since DW2 that GA and DW need to become separate entities and the proceeds from DW need to stay in DW to fund prizes, independent judges and future contests, not the GA boards or the GA studio.
USERNAME CHANGE! OMG!
THIS IS ALMOST AS DISHEARTENING AS THE OP!!!!!
ALLLLLLL CAAAAAPPPPPSSSS RRRRAAAAGGGEEEE!!!!!!!
EDIT: VIGGGY NOOOOOOOO!!!!
I say we vote to change it back.
I love all my brothers and sisters, PC and GA alike.
edit: Vig...wtf?
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1249008&postcount=67
fred got rage.
I really don't get why people always try to make money the wrong way. Why not just sell posters, or make artbooks with a collection of the greatest entries of DW. I don't think people would mind having their renders shown that way (if they get a free copy of the book in return). Maybe have some of the top 3 artists do a full workflow overview in that same book or have a DVD tutorial release with the DW brand on it.
Selling the models without giving any compensation to the artist that made them is just wrong
Kumbaya my brother...kumbaya.
Everybody CARES about DW, obviously. It's been a really cool thing for all the communities. It's been insane to organize and produce, I'm sure. Everybody wants to see it stay.
We also want to see it better organized. If Fred had ASKED the communities about this option at the outset, there would be no rage. Even so, I don't think we have grounds to be upset. I've never spent a dime on it so I really can't claim to be owed anything. I've never volunteered to help out, so I don't feel like I have room to complain.
If you choose to not enter or care about the contest because of how it's run, that's a perfectly reasonable reaction. However, name calling and flared tempers are out of line unless you personally have had something taken from you (like Emil and his time).
But seriously, it was potentially corrupt from the beginning.
Polycount is big now, it should start its own, fart-free contest. Do it!
my god, goggles move fast
back on topic
I'm still looking forward to DM5, hope the admins of the communities involved and FredH get this sorted out without punching each other in the throat!
Sorry man, it might seem extreme, but I refuse to support / encourage traffic to any entity that takes advantage of artists, monetary or otherwise. Whether I have the choice to opt in or not, is irrelevant, and the dollar figure is also irrelevant.
If when I submitted an image at deviantart and I came to a page that said, ' hey do you mind if I take your image and sell it - and not give you any of the profits?
I would stop supporting that site too - At least at turbosquid they make it pretty damned clear what your getting into and SOME of the profits go back to the content generators.
If he needs money to run things better, he should look elsewhere for funding, NOT take advantage of the very people that make his business a success. He has a gallery, he is teaching students etc etc these things don't spring up out of nowhere, and these are certainly not the exploits of a starving artist.
In my experience, if things look shady on the outer crust it is a seething, swirling cesspool on the inside. You cant polish a turd.
This whole thing is is just so out of alignment with my own principals!
EDIT: Also, regarding this 'post of truth' thats forthcoming, I'm compelled to say that after an uproar at the end of every contest in the past couple of years, there is one of these large posts regarding 'how much effort goes in, and how its only fred, and how he has no money, and hes giving up all of his time to do this, so give him a break' time after time.
Now I'm guessing and I stress GUESSING, its going to be another heartfelt plea, something really big and impactful, that will win the populous over again.
don't mess with Hazardous! (or any Aussie for that matter