I didnt expect to be so angry about such a small thing but it really has rubbed me the wrong way.
Most annoying I find is that fred could of just posted a comment to clear this all up but as always we have to wait and stew and make the situation a thousand times worse than it actually should be. lots of silly name calling and so forth. Its frustrating that he had time to make a thumbnail and sticky the 'DW5 caution' thread instead of clearing this all up in a few well written sentences though.
I dont want to flame too much so I will leave it at that.....(deleted loads so it wasnt a massive rant) very sad panda
I reckon the DW brand is potentially very profitable but not in its current state as the other communities will simply end up boycotting the event if they feel its only benefiting GA financially. If Fred really want to make money from it he should sell the brand and retain royalties. Personally I think Fred has every right to make money from the brand he has developed over the years but not directly from the artists work who get paid nothing. He has done an epic job with DW but I get the feeling it has out grown him, we all want professional organization but we wont get that without serious financial incentive.
The rivalry between communities is what makes the competition stand out, Fred must realize that without the co-operation of other communities the event would not have the same appeal. There is a misconception over at GA that its a one man show because without all the hard work from other community mods, DW would not happen.
I understand Fred wanting to retain ownership but if he did sell the brand then a company like Eat3d would be ideal to take over in terms of neutrality and they have the infrastructure in place for creating tutorials. For many people who don't enter the competition the best thing about DW is the making of tuts, I am looking forward to seeing some hand painted diffuse tutorials that come from this years mini comp. DW is a big name and the competition would give unrivaled marketing power for training DVD's and art books. Of course I understand the problem with studio's not wanting they're employees artwork making profit for another company but with the volume of entries nowadays I think there would be plenty content for books or DVD's. It doesn't even have to be all about the high quality entries, chapters on what beginner contestants learned from the competition could be valuable, beginner tuts from a beginner perspective
If the event was organized by a neutral party then I doubt people would have the same objections to paying an entry fee and the intense rivalries would not get in the way. I hope this all get sorted out amicably as I want to enter next year Perhaps I am cynical but the news post and Adam's later post made me think that PC wants to derail DW to make room for its own comps, hope I am wrong about that.
Am I the only one who doesn't like all the (e: AMERICAN) civil war stuff? I mean, I like the idea of a polycount civil war thing, but why the fuck would you attach all this American civil war bullshit to it? Frankly I'd rather not be on the racist hillbilly side of a games art competition. And that's aside form the fact that I find American civil was imagery boring as hell.
You wacky Americans! Dominance war is cool because it has awesome robots and daemons and magic. Not my American uncles neighbour telling me that his shotgun is the only thing he keeps closer to him than his budwiser.
VVVVVVVVV
Oh. Thankyou. I was so confused. :poly117:
Am I the only one who doesn't like all the civil war stuff? I mean, I like the idea of a polycount civil war thing, but why the fuck would you attach all this American civil war bullshit to it? Frankly I'd rather not be on the racist hillbilly side of a games art competition. And that's aside form the fact that I find American civil was imagery boring as hell.
You wacky Americans! Dominance war is cool because it has awesome robots and daemons and magic. Not my American uncles neighbour telling me that his shotgun is the only thing he keeps closer to him than his budwiser.
I wouldn't take a few images thrown together too seriously If it ever did happen, I'm sure it'd be Team Green vs. Team Black with the specs of "make an awesome character"...the way nature intended it to be.
why does there even have to be two sides? i know its all in fun and whatnot but so was domwar. and now you have sheeple that got so into it that they actually hate the other forums.
yeah uhhh civil war doesn't just mean union vs the damn dirty south.
You mean the glorious south vs them damn dirty yankees. It's a common mistake, people make it all the time. There's a reason the war is called The War of Northern Aggression
fearian: lulz, so far the people posting US Civil War imagery haven't been Americans. Anyways, The Battle of Gettysburg, largest single battle to ever take place in the western hemisphere, makes the Battle of the Pelennor Fields from LOTR look like child's play.
why does there even have to be two sides? i know its all in fun and whatnot but so was domwar. and now you have sheeple that got so into it that they actually hate the other forums.
I think part of it is actually logistics and camaraderie for participants. If you're on a team instead of just being a single participant in a sea of single participants, it feels a lot easier to get involved with other people and both give and receive help.
Splitting up a single-forum competition into two teams would serve to make people help others far more than they usually might because they want to beat that damn, dirty other team that's really just having a friendly rivalry with them.
lol, not sure why you guys are assuming it has anything to do with america.
It's all pc baby. p vs c. green vs black. emil vs. adam.
wuh oh!
Totally in the Emil camp. I love Adam like a fat girl loves cupcakes or like how a completely gay guy loves another completely gay guy - but how can I resist Emil's champion like charm?
Edit> Plus, the idea of a civil war on polycount is funny, cool, cute and - well - sexy.
I think part of it is actually logistics and camaraderie for participants. If you're on a team instead of just being a single participant in a sea of single participants, it feels a lot easier to get involved with other people and both give and receive help.
Splitting up a single-forum competition into two teams would serve to make people help others far more than they usually might because they want to beat that damn, dirty other team that's really just having a friendly rivalry with them.
Dom war is team polycount vs every other crappy team out there...
I'd have to say I'd follow Adam into battle but due to his injury he probably wouldn't last long in the midst of it. How else are you going to wield a sabre and stroke your ally's penus
With the way this thread is going, lets not put funding in a Competition, let's just get a PC sauna with a sign that says no girls allowed. These bones are aching and need to be soothed.
I may read through the 9 pages of this thread some point soon, but I took a look at the first two just to get an idea of how other people feel about this situation. I feel FredH is a VERY VERY shifty character in the world of game art message boards. I have criticized him many times for a year or two now, and several people on PC and GA have jumped to this guys defence. I have posted a few times in related threads about how I think he has been misappropriating sponsorship cash/prizes/time to go towards his studio in Montreal etc. when the focus should have been DW5. I have seen him post on here saying 'oh I'm a martyr, I'd have a BMW and a house if I hadn't poured my life savings into Dominance War' which of course is rubbish. It was very hard to see people eating this up and thanking him on bended knee, but I guess the truth about his character is out now. He will of course try to worm his way out of this but I hope people dont swallow his BS this time.
It's hard to describe just how different FredH and Adam come across... seriously. Not to mention the fact that Adam holds down a real job in a big studio and still manages to spend a lot of time on here chatting and showing personal work with everyone else.
I think it's time to start seriously discussing PC taking over as the host of the big yearly game art contest. That goes not just for a DW style contest but the Unearthly challenge too. And maybe an animation comp thrown in with the DW style one, who knows.
My concern would be that there wouldn't be as much interest if there weren't prizes, but I think that going that route is the best way to go. Maybe since PC and Valve are all loved up Valve could sort PC out with some loot for it? If you threw in stuff from the Valve store and some PC badges, T-Shirts etc. I think it would generate the same interest. For those that might not compete otherwise of course. Most of us would compete cause we're all hard for Greentooth
EDIT: Also I accept that running GA/DW etc. must be very very expensive. But FredH has gone about solving this problem the wrong way, maybe for longer than we know. Mind you, if it was so expensive to run the site, how did he afford to set up his own studio?
What's a little upsetting is reading a small anti-polycount backlash in GA. a handful of posters saying they feel like PC members look down on other forumites and making out PC posters hand down criticism with a sneer.
All I've ever taken away from polycount (and other forums) is that 'counters respect good artists no matter the forum, and doubly so for artists working hard to improve themselves. I think the criticism on PC is stronger, but I never feel its condescending.
For what it's worth, I'd gladly give a competition model for animation purposes.
No one asked for the competition to get this big. some would say "Well, it was for the community, to get more publicity, sponsors, moneys, etc." - but this USED to be a friendly competition and everyone was fine with that. If Fred decided to expand that quickly without proper research and preparation - we can't really be expected to show pity and justify slimy actions to make up funds for someone's poor business decisions. I certainly appreciate the effort and the initiative it took to MAKE the competition - but things have obviously gotten to a point where it cannot be properly managed. I've been a big supporter of DW, I've participated in 3 of them, have given a bunch of write-ups, judged, etc. - I'd hate to see it go, but at the same time I feel as though it has lost focus and 'isn't what it used to be." What was a friendly competition has turned into a failing business. As much as it disappoints me to say, I'm with Hazardous.
I rarely visit GA these days - for a few reasons. What's annoying me lately though, popping my head in there over the past few days, is to see this community's reputation, yet again, being slandered. Like you have mentioned, people just eating up complete bullshit and asking for more - it baffles me. Sure, PC is totally gay and rough around the edges, the minority of members can be assholes - BUT - it also has an extremely resourceful member base, has held successful competitions in the past (which has actually turned profits over TO the artists involved) and - obviously - has a very transparent relationship between admin and user.
Again, to me, I'd gladly donate my work to the cause to raise money. When I was part of the failed "Big Brother" thing, I donated my payment back into the system. This one instance, though, is just the proverbial straw breaking the camels back. I can't support a cause that isn't honest to it's members and that doesn't hold up their end of the deal.
That being said, I now need a competition to fight in - so, either bring on Civil War or bring Spark out of the woodwork so we can settle our bitter rivalry.
That being said, I now need a competition to fight in - so, either bring on Civil War or bring Spark out of the woodwork so we can settle our bitter rivalry.
So the Civil War thing is for real? I thought people were just messing around. If it's actually happening though, man, I'm real excited about that!
Sure, PC is totally gay and rough around the edges, the minority of members can be assholes...
I think those days are long gone myself; I would have agreed with you last year, but two or three of the biggest offenders haven't posted all that much in a while...PC really is quite a nice place now, with a lot of (totally gay as you mentioned) love going around. Coupled with the constructive criticism you get ,and the success PC and its members have had this year with the whole Valve-glomp thing it really is a completely different place now. The best new ideas are here too, with things like the Game Art workshop cropping up from member user feedback. To be honest I think it's weird that PC isn't the one with the big minis etc that GA has, instead opting for a smaller LPC challenge every so often...maybe if PC adopted GA's model and had a visual representation of when a challenge was on (MUCH easier IMO, sometimes I miss things on here) and had an alternating character, vehicle, weapon and small environment mini challenge it would be great... but I guess we have to give Adam time to heal from that fucking awful injury and we'll see what happens with PC next year
Also please don't think I'm taking your post out of context by quoting you that way Your post was a positive one.
So the Civil War thing is for real? I thought people were just messing around. If it's actually happening though, man, I'm real excited about that!
Shit gets said and then its real the next day on PC. That's just how things happen here, no months of deliberating and delaying competitions and results for no reason, no sir.
I'm going to chime in again and say that we're reading everything that's being said and want to give thanks to all the kind words being said about the Community here, your fellow artists and how the PC Crew does things. Andreas and Gav put it in to words better than I would have.
Regarding the Dominance War - As far as we know there's a delay in when it begins but that we (Polycount) are still in the competition. We haven't been told otherwise so if you're still planning on entering and want to represent the Black & Green machine, we'd love to see your kick-ass creations.
As for a contest from Polycount, as I mentioned earlier we're looking in to doing a follow-up contest to the Polycount Pack. It'll be with another developer or publisher, but it will take time as we're going to make sure all of our ducks are in a line before we ever officially announce it. One of the best things to come out of this, is we've had a few years to watch and learn how to and how not to run a contest.
EDIT: I forgot to mention - So far it hasn't been too bad, but if anyone belittles or puts down another artist, both from this community or any other community you'll be forcing our hand for giving out infractions. Same goes for knocking members at other communities, or other communities altogether. While things are getting hairy, we don't need to lower ourselves to name calling. Cool?
That being said, I now need a competition to fight in - so, either bring on Civil War or bring Spark out of the woodwork so we can settle our bitter rivalry.
This reminded me of an interesting idea for a contest I had yesterday, and while it may or may not be feasible, it may be worth thinking about so that it can possibly bring more ideas to the table as far as a community contest goes.
Anyway, the idea:
Sometimes you hear stories from civil wars about brothers fighting each other on opposite sides of the war. Wouldn't it be fun to do a civil war contest where you are paired with someone on the other team and you're competing directly against them?
The scoring in the end could be done like ladder tournaments. If somebody dropped out of the competition, their partner is automatically declared the victor and they move on to the next stage of judging.
It'd probably be tough to set up, but I know there are a few people on here who'd love to face off in a one-on-one as part of a larger contest.
adam thsnks for good news. I'm very glad that PC still in game. The worst thing in all this case is an aggression among artists society. I hope we can pass through it.
Maybe since PC and Valve are all loved up Valve could sort PC out with some loot for it? If you threw in stuff from the Valve store and some PC badges, T-Shirts etc.
.. I know what would get people to do their absolute best, winner gets a job at valve
heh wishfull thinking
and adam, thats a cool idea! Kinda like the thunderdome contest over at conceptart.org a few years back. but you would have to pit a group against each other, if there will be allot of people who enter. no VS fights at least. that would take to many rounds
Replies
"The South will rise again!"
:thumbup: *applause* :thumbup:
Gotta give it a five minute break, though.
Most annoying I find is that fred could of just posted a comment to clear this all up but as always we have to wait and stew and make the situation a thousand times worse than it actually should be. lots of silly name calling and so forth. Its frustrating that he had time to make a thumbnail and sticky the 'DW5 caution' thread instead of clearing this all up in a few well written sentences though.
I dont want to flame too much so I will leave it at that.....(deleted loads so it wasnt a massive rant)
Excellent posts Adam and Hazardous :thumbup:
The rivalry between communities is what makes the competition stand out, Fred must realize that without the co-operation of other communities the event would not have the same appeal. There is a misconception over at GA that its a one man show because without all the hard work from other community mods, DW would not happen.
I understand Fred wanting to retain ownership but if he did sell the brand then a company like Eat3d would be ideal to take over in terms of neutrality and they have the infrastructure in place for creating tutorials. For many people who don't enter the competition the best thing about DW is the making of tuts, I am looking forward to seeing some hand painted diffuse tutorials that come from this years mini comp. DW is a big name and the competition would give unrivaled marketing power for training DVD's and art books. Of course I understand the problem with studio's not wanting they're employees artwork making profit for another company but with the volume of entries nowadays I think there would be plenty content for books or DVD's. It doesn't even have to be all about the high quality entries, chapters on what beginner contestants learned from the competition could be valuable, beginner tuts from a beginner perspective
If the event was organized by a neutral party then I doubt people would have the same objections to paying an entry fee and the intense rivalries would not get in the way. I hope this all get sorted out amicably as I want to enter next year
I'm off to play the nameless mod for Deus Ex
The most awesomest thing I've seen all day!
A higher res version of either would make great wallpapers.
You wacky Americans! Dominance war is cool because it has awesome robots and daemons and magic. Not my American uncles neighbour telling me that his shotgun is the only thing he keeps closer to him than his budwiser.
VVVVVVVVV
Oh. Thankyou. I was so confused. :poly117:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war
It's all pc baby. p vs c. green vs black. emil vs. adam.
wuh oh!
You mean the glorious south vs them damn dirty yankees. It's a common mistake, people make it all the time. There's a reason the war is called The War of Northern Aggression
I think part of it is actually logistics and camaraderie for participants. If you're on a team instead of just being a single participant in a sea of single participants, it feels a lot easier to get involved with other people and both give and receive help.
Splitting up a single-forum competition into two teams would serve to make people help others far more than they usually might because they want to beat that damn, dirty other team that's really just having a friendly rivalry with them.
Totally in the Emil camp. I love Adam like a fat girl loves cupcakes or like how a completely gay guy loves another completely gay guy - but how can I resist Emil's champion like charm?
Edit> Plus, the idea of a civil war on polycount is funny, cool, cute and - well - sexy.
You're a champ.
Dom war is team polycount vs every other crappy team out there...
SEE! it works.
So much delicious mustard squirting all over the long, meaty hot dog...
My nipples are hard.
Ah, reverse psychology. I like it!
we all enter
we all agree to have our submissions sold
we all do stick men as our entries
Trust me, I'm a Nigerian prince.
~ OMG Prince Oyinbolowo Eko Ajao Omotoriola!
Dude I emailed you like 5weeks ago, check your account. When can I expect my money?
To War!
says the guy from Wisconsin.
It's hard to describe just how different FredH and Adam come across... seriously. Not to mention the fact that Adam holds down a real job in a big studio and still manages to spend a lot of time on here chatting and showing personal work with everyone else.
I think it's time to start seriously discussing PC taking over as the host of the big yearly game art contest. That goes not just for a DW style contest but the Unearthly challenge too. And maybe an animation comp thrown in with the DW style one, who knows.
My concern would be that there wouldn't be as much interest if there weren't prizes, but I think that going that route is the best way to go. Maybe since PC and Valve are all loved up Valve could sort PC out with some loot for it? If you threw in stuff from the Valve store and some PC badges, T-Shirts etc. I think it would generate the same interest. For those that might not compete otherwise of course. Most of us would compete cause we're all hard for Greentooth
EDIT: Also I accept that running GA/DW etc. must be very very expensive. But FredH has gone about solving this problem the wrong way, maybe for longer than we know. Mind you, if it was so expensive to run the site, how did he afford to set up his own studio?
All I've ever taken away from polycount (and other forums) is that 'counters respect good artists no matter the forum, and doubly so for artists working hard to improve themselves. I think the criticism on PC is stronger, but I never feel its condescending.
SAYS THE GUY WITH A BEARD
For what it's worth, I'd gladly give a competition model for animation purposes.
No one asked for the competition to get this big. some would say "Well, it was for the community, to get more publicity, sponsors, moneys, etc." - but this USED to be a friendly competition and everyone was fine with that. If Fred decided to expand that quickly without proper research and preparation - we can't really be expected to show pity and justify slimy actions to make up funds for someone's poor business decisions. I certainly appreciate the effort and the initiative it took to MAKE the competition - but things have obviously gotten to a point where it cannot be properly managed. I've been a big supporter of DW, I've participated in 3 of them, have given a bunch of write-ups, judged, etc. - I'd hate to see it go, but at the same time I feel as though it has lost focus and 'isn't what it used to be." What was a friendly competition has turned into a failing business. As much as it disappoints me to say, I'm with Hazardous.
I rarely visit GA these days - for a few reasons. What's annoying me lately though, popping my head in there over the past few days, is to see this community's reputation, yet again, being slandered. Like you have mentioned, people just eating up complete bullshit and asking for more - it baffles me. Sure, PC is totally gay and rough around the edges, the minority of members can be assholes - BUT - it also has an extremely resourceful member base, has held successful competitions in the past (which has actually turned profits over TO the artists involved) and - obviously - has a very transparent relationship between admin and user.
Again, to me, I'd gladly donate my work to the cause to raise money. When I was part of the failed "Big Brother" thing, I donated my payment back into the system. This one instance, though, is just the proverbial straw breaking the camels back. I can't support a cause that isn't honest to it's members and that doesn't hold up their end of the deal.
That being said, I now need a competition to fight in - so, either bring on Civil War or bring Spark out of the woodwork so we can settle our bitter rivalry.
So the Civil War thing is for real? I thought people were just messing around. If it's actually happening though, man, I'm real excited about that!
I think those days are long gone myself; I would have agreed with you last year, but two or three of the biggest offenders haven't posted all that much in a while...PC really is quite a nice place now, with a lot of (totally gay as you mentioned) love going around. Coupled with the constructive criticism you get ,and the success PC and its members have had this year with the whole Valve-glomp thing it really is a completely different place now. The best new ideas are here too, with things like the Game Art workshop cropping up from member user feedback. To be honest I think it's weird that PC isn't the one with the big minis etc that GA has, instead opting for a smaller LPC challenge every so often...maybe if PC adopted GA's model and had a visual representation of when a challenge was on (MUCH easier IMO, sometimes I miss things on here) and had an alternating character, vehicle, weapon and small environment mini challenge it would be great... but I guess we have to give Adam time to heal from that fucking awful injury and we'll see what happens with PC next year
Also please don't think I'm taking your post out of context by quoting you that way
Shit gets said and then its real the next day on PC. That's just how things happen here, no months of deliberating and delaying competitions and results for no reason, no sir.
Regarding the Dominance War - As far as we know there's a delay in when it begins but that we (Polycount) are still in the competition. We haven't been told otherwise so if you're still planning on entering and want to represent the Black & Green machine, we'd love to see your kick-ass creations.
As for a contest from Polycount, as I mentioned earlier we're looking in to doing a follow-up contest to the Polycount Pack. It'll be with another developer or publisher, but it will take time as we're going to make sure all of our ducks are in a line before we ever officially announce it. One of the best things to come out of this, is we've had a few years to watch and learn how to and how not to run a contest.
EDIT: I forgot to mention - So far it hasn't been too bad, but if anyone belittles or puts down another artist, both from this community or any other community you'll be forcing our hand for giving out infractions. Same goes for knocking members at other communities, or other communities altogether. While things are getting hairy, we don't need to lower ourselves to name calling. Cool?
Im definitely joining in the fun for that next one.
soooo true.
This reminded me of an interesting idea for a contest I had yesterday, and while it may or may not be feasible, it may be worth thinking about so that it can possibly bring more ideas to the table as far as a community contest goes.
Anyway, the idea:
Sometimes you hear stories from civil wars about brothers fighting each other on opposite sides of the war. Wouldn't it be fun to do a civil war contest where you are paired with someone on the other team and you're competing directly against them?
The scoring in the end could be done like ladder tournaments. If somebody dropped out of the competition, their partner is automatically declared the victor and they move on to the next stage of judging.
It'd probably be tough to set up, but I know there are a few people on here who'd love to face off in a one-on-one as part of a larger contest.
heh wishfull thinking
and adam, thats a cool idea! Kinda like the thunderdome contest over at conceptart.org a few years back. but you would have to pit a group against each other, if there will be allot of people who enter. no VS fights at least. that would take to many rounds