you mean in max2011? :poly124: its not even out there.
In max2010 it is kind of broken also you can't yet customize it yourself. There is a way to get it vertical but some of the collapsing and rollover effects are missing or something like that. So yeah its broken and incomplete in max2010. Lets hope it gets better with 2011.
well, i guess if you can dock it to the side like the orignal polyboost, then i can probably live with that. the current ribbon menu is a pos
i'd still prefer to keep the old ui
Taken from the 3dsmax Help File about Using the Ribbon
To switch the ribbon orientation:
By default, the ribbon uses a horizontal configuration, but you can change it to vertical using Toggle Modeling Ribbon Orientation, an action available from the Customize User Interface dialog.
On the menu bar, choose Customize > Customize User Interface to open the Customize User Interface dialog.
Choose whether to make the Toggle Modeling Ribbon Orientation command available from the keyboard, a toolbar, a quad menu or a regular menu, and click the corresponding tab on the dialog. This procedure shows how to add the command as a toolbar button. To use a different interface item, see the respective topic in the Customize User Interface Dialog help section.
Click the Toolbars tab and set Category to Modeling: Graphite Tools. This category contains only two actions: One to toggle the ribbon interface (already available on the main toolbar and Tools menu) and the other to toggle the orientation.
Drag the Toggle Modeling Ribbon Orientation from the list to a toolbar and then close the dialog. By default, the button text is Toggle Modeling Ribbon Orientation, of which only the central part is visible on the button.
To customize the button, right-click the button, choose Edit Button Appearance, and use the Edit Button Appearance dialog controls to change the button to your liking.
Click the new button. The first time, the ribbon switches to vertical orientation. Thereafter, clicking the button toggles the orientation.
About having to get the latest Max no matter what. Is that really the case ? I have a 2009 license at work, and clearly told the IT guy that I wasn't interested in 2010 because of the ribbon horror stories - and this 2009 has been running fine since then. So maybe there is a way to get support for older versions after all?
People still buy it though. Some change to other packages, but studios would still buy the new release, and there are plenty of new buyers breaking into the industry.
It would be interesting to see their sales (not happening) on a chart. I don't really think it hurts their sales much, but it hurts conscious users and goes against common sense.
Maybe not on a chart, but 3ds Max is the number 1 3D professional animation tool (by revenue and by seats). If you looked at it on a chart, you'd see that pre-economic melt-down, we were having record quarters each quarter. Since early 2009, 3ds Max sales have been increasing every quarter again. So, if customers vote with their $, then it's pretty clear what they are voting for.
Well, seems like a lot of angst about 3ds Max here. Not sure if this is your worst nightmare, someone from Autodesk actually showing up on your forum. I don't know if I can untangle anything or not, but I'll do my best.
Annual releases:
- These exist because customers insist on value for each year's subscription. If they didn't exist, then there would be complaints that we're not doing enough. Right now, there are complaints that we're doing too much (or not the way you would do it). Autodesk is looking at this issue seriously and trying to figure out what the happy medium will be.
Ribbon:
- Some love it, some hate it. For the haters, we are introducing new customization tools that let you totally customize the layout. We've also improved performance - but know we can do even more. Since we haven't announced quite yet, not much to talk about. But we've been listening to the complaints. You'll also have much better vertical methods of using the ribbon. The ribbon is here to stay, but we are going to work on it until it becomes an asset to the majority of your workflows.
Viewcube/steering wheel:
- Came from Maya and Autodesk adopted it as a universal feature. Actually, the 3ds Max Dev team didn't have to spend any cycles on this so it did not cost you any features. It'd be great if you could simply turn it off if it bothers you. It seems everyone makes it seem that this was some huge feature that we worked on while you didn't get any other features. If you care about the facts, then you'd tell people that the 3ds Max team didn't work on it and it had zero impact on our planned features. I hate to take away such a popular bashing instrument, but it is totally fictional the way it is communicated.
Future:
In roughly 24 hours you'll have a lot more information to either bash us with or praise us. You won't have to wait long. I hope a few of you find something useful.
Ken, thanks for posting and clarifying that stuff.
The whole subscription thing leading to annual releases is an issue many people won't even know about, they think of the package as a one-off buy for themselves, and thus get confused when a new version comes out (what seems like) shortly after they bought their version.
And without a subscription, you'd end up paying over the odds for what some may regard as "minor" feature updates (obviously the actual content and usefulness varies by release, and by what field you work in).
Nice to see you posting here though, it's always good to know that the actual developers look around and take notice of stuff, since most users (for some reason) never actually submit their crash reports or use the "Request A Feature" button in the Help menu... and then, after not reporting a consistent crash for over a year, wonder why it's not fixed in the next release, heh
Thanks for linking the defect submission form, too, I bet most people on these boards don't even know that exists.
Edit: Slate material editor looks awesome, Max has been hurting for want of a good node-based editor for a long while now.
Regarding the Ribbon, so can we freely customize it to look more like polyboost once again? Can I split up the buttons so I can have a side bar on both sides? With Polyboost in 2009 I have PolyDraw & Loop Tools docked on the right while selection, other modeling, and transform tools are on the left.
Is the Slate Material Editor optional? I'm one of the few out there who like the current non-node based set up.
First of all, thanks for taking the time to post here at Polycount. With all due respect, I hate the ribbon in AutoCAD and in 3ds Max. I don't see how it's any better than a standard menu bar. It comes across as very gimmicky. If it was similar to InDesign and Photoshop, where only the tool you select jumps out, it would work better for me. Having the whole ribbon pop up for one tool is annoying.
I absolutely love the graphite modeling tools in 2010, but don't understand why they weren't simply integrated into the control panel under editable poly. Seriously, why aren't grow ring, ring mode, etc located allong with the editable poly selection tools? Why do I have to go to different menus?
If the idea is to eventually replace the control panel with a fully customizable ribbon, that's something that will take some getting used to, but I can wrap my head around.
If not, then having editable poly modeling tools in two locations, on opposite ends of the screen, is a terrible idea that wastes time and adds to the confusion of the interface.
Hearing about customization concerning the ribbon is good news, though.
Also, that node-based material editor looks fucking ace. I can't wait to see it in action.
If you're not familiar with our XBR or Excalibur initiative, I suggest you check out my blog. That should answer many questions about why things are the way they are right now. We are in the middle of a restructuring of 3ds Max and it does appear less elegant than we want, but a necessary evil to get where we're going. The ribbon will become a dominant workflow while being very customizable (see new 2011 videos). There's more customization in discussion too. We're working on a public screenshot of what the UI might look like as part of our XBR project. Maybe in a month or so we'll have that. You'll see the ribbon in there. I think it will make sense when you can see where we're going.
The ribbon is here to stay, but we are going to work on it until it becomes an asset to the majority of your workflows.
If it works as it should and is customizable I'm all for it. I thought it was a great idea when I first read about it. But I can't say I'm crazy about it right now. I'm Hopeful with the updates I'll like using it instead of just dealing with it as is.
Is this the same as filling out the bug report that pops up when max crashes? I'd rather just keep filling out those crash reports since it gathers a bunch of the info for me. Is there a way to launch that reporting tool in case we have a bug that doesn't trigger it or just have a suggestion?
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=69755&page=2
I wrote up a list of things I find frustrating and broken. I've written some of this up as bugs and officially submitted them a few weeks ago, using the form you linked to earlier and through the crash bug reporting. I'm never really sure where they end up or if they will even get addressed. Somethings I've brought up in the past have made it in, not sure if its a coincidence or not but I'm thankful all the same.
We're trying to get the community more engaged in helping us plan the future. It's not easy, there are a lot of you in many communities with a zillion workflows that are mission critical.
Actually Ken, I'd sooner see you guys open up the mouse input customization so I can pull whatever features I want out of the ribbon, add them to my keyboard and mouse config and then ditch it completely from the UI. More GUI does not = better UI no matter how you want to present it. Not a big fan of excessive button and menu access at all. Button clickers can rejoice but don't ignore other options for input when your competitors are providing such things.
Apps like Silo and Modo are more comfortable to work in because of this capability - especially when they allow me to take full advantage of a 5 button mouse with wheel and modifier keys... hell even blender is getting it. Just sayin' ;]
Thanks for posting on polycount though nice to see you take notice of our 'little' community! =]
Actually, yeah, that's a great point - lack of mouse button customisation seems like a glaring oversight in both Max and Maya. I had so many quick little shortcuts on my mouse (and the forward/back buttons are so handy for stuff like undo/redo viewport or skip up/down subdivision levels etc) it seems a bit retro to "lock" everyone down to just having 3 non-customisable buttons...
Welcome aboard Ken. Great to see you posting here like the other guys said.
Looking forward to the new features.
I have been using 2010 since beta and I love it. I have it running smooth as can be on my machine and the graphite tools work great and the ribbon is pretty small on my interface so I'm not too worried.
Actually Ken, I'd sooner see you guys open up the mouse input customization so I can pull whatever features I want out of the ribbon, add them to my keyboard and mouse config and then ditch it completely from the UI. More GUI does not = better UI no matter how you want to present it. Not a big fan of excessive button and menu access at all. Button clickers can rejoice but don't ignore other options for input when your competitors are providing such things.
Apps like Silo and Modo are more comfortable to work in because of this capability - especially when they allow me to take full advantage of a 5 button mouse with wheel and modifier keys... hell even blender is getting it. Just sayin' ;]
Thanks for posting on polycount though nice to see you take notice of our 'little' community! =]
QFA
Hey Ken, glad you're here to respond.
If Autodesk decided the viewcube/steering wheel as universal feature, Is it possible to have keyboard viewport navigation become universal/standard like alt+LMB,MMB,RMB or at least customisable? Sometimes we have to jumps between apps and the first thing to tackle usually is inconsistent viewport navigation e.g from maya to max or softimage.
This looks like a pretty nice release. I can definitely see where they are going with the Ribbon in the future and what's happening to the command panel (you're allowed to keep it as a hidden pop-up in 2011). The new customization you get now with the Ribbon makes it a lot more tolerable.
The one thing I couldn't find info on is viewport performance. Is this improved? This to me is like # f'ing 1 thing that needs to be brought up to par with XSI and Maya. If AD gets this fixed Max will be uber awesome. I can't stress that enough. People can work around UI with with Quad Menus and keyboard shortcuts, but there is no way to get around a sluggish viewport.
Anyways awesome stuff, I'm pretty excited about how complete of a package Max is becoming.
I second the idea of breaking UI from functionality. Ideally all the UI logic (the modifier panel...) would be put into something customizeable like maxscript. So instead of say using the maxscript wrapper functionality to override UI, the whole thing is a maxscript in the first place that just links to functions exposed in the modifiers, making it easy to change layout and alike. It would also get rid of the frustration moments that some things are exposed in SDK but not in maxscript, or some are neither but hardcoded ui elements.
the customizable views you showed in XBR and so on, are really nice, but it all depends how customizable they really are at the end. Things like custom input event tracking and so on, currently it's quite hardcoded with the "mouse tools" or the internal c++ stuff. The core architecture of max is great and very very powerful/flexible, with the fnpublish stuff you also have the ingredients to split funcionality from ui. Eventhough it will be a shitload of work breaking all the ui stuff out of the dlls. Now if you could break even some of the input stuff out, it would be pure candy. So that custom tool-modes could be scripted... making use of the mouse buttons and all that as mentioned.
with AD controlling all the major apps now, one should think they have the time and resources to take their time to make these major changes. The subscription stuff is ADs policy, in the old days we used to get a service pack for free, now we basically pay for it with the yearly release stuff. But similar has been stated by Neil Blevins on the cgsociety board as well. I don't think even if AD would not release an update one year, that it would loose significantly in market share, simply as the ecosystem of AD related tools is overwhelming, gazillions of tutorials, videos, everyone knows max/maya are the top tools used, warez/student versions everywhere which makes sure new artists will stay familiar with the tools. So "people voting with their $" I think isn't entirely fair in this monopoly like situation we are in, it's certainly great for AD
I would wonder how much money is spent on the development team of max, given how cheap buying the softimage crew was, I guess it just isn't really much, which would also explain why a lot of "big features" are achieved by buying in former 3rd party plugins (slate = nodejoe, graphite = polyboost, CAT...). I have spent enough time in the SDK, to say hats off to you guys for maintaining all this, it's gigantic, but it's nice to see steps in the right direction visibly in the SDK. I just wish AD would put more money in their hands or take their time.
but anyway the XBR customizeable UI I think can be really cool, allowing each faction of the multiple max users (architect/design vis, games, vfx...) to find the most efficient setup for them.
saving to last version for backwards compatibility is quite a nice move.
Jesse, I don't want to step on your toes too much but the ribbon is far from perfect at least not yet. I'll ignore the vertical layout since it doesn't have a compacted mode.
1) Giant gaps bloat these windows larger than they need to be. This is most visible in the "compacted" view.
2) Another feature of the "compacted" view is inconsistent icon size. Specifically giant icons created to be viewed from space? These same icons are an appropriate size when in expanded view so why not keep them all the same size.
1 & 2 combined, lead to it looking pretty shoddy and haphazard, especially considering there isn't much consistency between the various modes.
3) I'm sure someone really appreciates these pop-ups. It would be great to be able to turn them off or at least set the delay timer so I don't accidentally trigger them, yes even the little ones.
3a) Maybe a check box in the pop-up itself that way people can shut off specific ones?
3b) Maybe remove the text from the buttons, put it in the first pop up and move the text that currently resides in the first mini pop-up to the expanded. So much space could be saved and would really represent a true "compacted mode".
4) The upper right corner is becoming a dead zone, even more so when you have the ribbon expanded. This compacts down the command panel even more.
Q: "Why don't you float the command panel on top? Problem solved right?"
A: "No, not really. Now things disappear under it, your time bar, your newly expanded viewport, the Graphite Modeling Tools (when specific tools are active in expanded mode) all disappear under command panel now.
There is enough wasted space in GMT to make it fit between the command panel and the left side of the screen without having to force a smaller command panel.
5) Under Customize > Customize User Interface, the keyboard shortcuts for Graphite Modeling Tools are under "Ribbon - Modeling".
Not under G for Graphite where most people look since that is how it was branded. R for Ribbon the new UI element that isn't specific to modeling or graphite tools.
Don't let the other two entries fool ya. "Modeling: Graphite Tools" & "Modeling: Graphite Tools Internal" There aren't any tools be be found there. People still complain they can't set keyboard shortcuts, its because they can't find them not because they don't exist.
Now hopefully these things will be addressed, from what I've read so far, it seems like some will, others maybe and a few probably not.
4) The upper right corner is becoming a dead zone, even more so when you have the ribbon expanded. This compacts down the command panel even more.
Edit: I now get what you mean. Anyway, you can put some custom stuff there like script buttons and what not. Or the compact layers manager..
The problem here is that max is trying to address a very large audience with a single UI. You can change stuff, but it barely makes a difference. It sould come with preset UIs for different industries.
PS: Btw I really wish artists are given the option to switch back to the old style icons (pre 2010) in next versions of Max. :poly121: A "user interface" would suggest users have some freedom, right. Forcing a change is uncool.
Yes, if we had unlimited resources, we'd make it all fully customizable and you could stay "old school". Unfortunately, we are limited by resources and we do the best we can. Some things have to appear in a certain order - which is driven partly by our XBR plans. We apologize for the messiness, but sometimes you got to make a little mess to get to the goodness.
Regarding the Ribbon, so can we freely customize it to look more like polyboost once again? Can I split up the buttons so I can have a side bar on both sides? With Polyboost in 2009 I have PolyDraw & Loop Tools docked on the right while selection, other modeling, and transform tools are on the left.
Is the Slate Material Editor optional? I'm one of the few out there who like the current non-node based set up.
Qs will not work with RTT at this time. Sorry. I'll be posting a lot more on Qs on my blog soon. We'll tell you exactly what it is and isn't. It's less than some people think it is, so we want to set the right expectations.
Go check out the videos on customization on the Area. I think they'll answer your questions.
We did not get rid of the old UI for the ME. It's there with some new features.
Actually Ken, I'd sooner see you guys open up the mouse input customization so I can pull whatever features I want out of the ribbon, add them to my keyboard and mouse config and then ditch it completely from the UI. More GUI does not = better UI no matter how you want to present it. Not a big fan of excessive button and menu access at all. Button clickers can rejoice but don't ignore other options for input when your competitors are providing such things.
Apps like Silo and Modo are more comfortable to work in because of this capability - especially when they allow me to take full advantage of a 5 button mouse with wheel and modifier keys... hell even blender is getting it. Just sayin' ;]
Thanks for posting on polycount though nice to see you take notice of our 'little' community! =]
This is a good point. We are looking at things like marking menus and other UI improvements as part of XBR. Sorry we can't get it all done in 12 months.
Yes, if we had unlimited resources, we'd make it all fully customizable and you could stay "old school". Unfortunately, we are limited by resources and we do the best we can. Some things have to appear in a certain order - which is driven partly by our XBR plans. We apologize for the messiness, but sometimes you got to make a little mess to get to the goodness.
I can forgive the mess as long as it gets cleaned up. I'm thankful that Graphite modeling tools were included in 2010 and it doesn't stop me from using them, even if they where a little messy. I like the road you guys are on and the XBR plans look pretty hot. Some of us are pretty eager to drop the old school.
But you have to pardon some of our skepticism, some legacy bugs and mess have been in max for a long time. It also takes a while to change peoples perceptions. Not everyone is on subscription or gets the latest version when it comes out. So there's always a hint of "what if they move onto something else and never get around to cleaning this up?"
To you're credit you guys have made a great effort over the last few years to get some of those things cleaned up so I don't want you to think we're all ungrateful bastards who think its all broken all the time.
Hopefully you understand we have to live in your house while you remodel and its not always easy living...
I second opening up some of the locked down features like mouse buttons and a handful of keyboard shortcuts. I'm comfortable switching between max, maya/mudbox but it would be great if I could unify the viewport nav... read not viewcube.
We know we have a lot to do. Our original plan with the Ribbon was to realease it with customization but then we "timed out" and had to ship.
With XBR, we have at least provided the explanation for why it might be a little messy and why it might be a good thing.
BTW, we are busy looking at the normal tangent issue and one of your forum members has joined the beta to give us some religion on this issue. We're trying, thanks for having some patience.
This is a good point. We are looking at things like marking menus and other UI improvements as part of XBR. Sorry we can't get it all done in 12 months.
Ah, cool - I muuuuuuch prefer Maya's marking menus to Max's quad menus, the Quads feel cluttered and slow to me, marking menus are super fast by comparison (they tend to have less options to direct access but a lot of the Max quad menu options I find a bit unnecessary anyway)
I love Modo's ability to have custom pie menus, it's feels like Maya's marking menu but on steroids. I'm not sure if Max can do this, but it'll be awesome if it can
isoline editing gotta be something many people want, too. (i.e. not clicking the subdiv cage, but directly the new smoothed edges, vertices... which map back to the original cage ones)
I want Autodesk to merge Max>Maya>XSI into one package so I can stop jumping from one to the next. With a start up option to use one of the 3's keyboard+mouse configurations.
I think it's XSI that has this feature, but I can't remember what it's called. It allows you to move points and edges over a surface without changing the form. That would save a LOT of time tweaking low poly stuff for animation and such.
err... like constrain to edge, face or normal in edit poly? Don't forget to turn on PreserveUV's so sliding the edges around doesn't mess up the UV layout.
No, it's not like that. Even with constrain to edge, when you edit them, you can change the form of the model. I think it's called, something like, Proportional modeling? Not sure
[EDIT] That must have been a dream or something, cause I can't find what I THOUGHT was there, anywhere on the net... Still, would be a cool feature.
Qs will not work with RTT at this time. Sorry. I'll be posting a lot more on Qs on my blog soon. We'll tell you exactly what it is and isn't. It's less than some people think it is, so we want to set the right expectations.
That's too bad. I got a bit excited when I read Quicksilver would utilize the GPU cores. xNormal does this with CUDA I think and people love it for how fast it can bake AO maps. For a second I was hoping I could stay within max now. I personally like how the AO maps look if max bakes them in regular scanline on CompleteMap with skylight/light tracer. Only problem is how slow it is.
How about you document exactly what we need to do? We're researching this issue right now...
I think they're referring to how they prefer the way Modo handles chamfer. Someone else will need to post comparison samples. I thought I seen them somewhere here one time.
I think it's XSI that has this feature, but I can't remember what it's called. It allows you to move points and edges over a surface without changing the form. That would save a LOT of time tweaking low poly stuff for animation and such.
Second this, I´ll find out what the hell it´s called.
Ken, here's a couple quick examples of the existing edge chamfer-Left, and what is desired (or desired option anyway)-Right
Edge Chamfer:
Corner Chamfer:
I would also love it if preserve UVs would work when moving points on the UV shell edge. As it is, it seems to work fine for any interior points, but when you move one on a UV seam, it does wacky stuff.
Also, I'm still baffled why features just get removed. Notably, going from 9-2008 (I thinK?) not being able to clone objects and faces in place by shift clicking the move widget really threw me for a loop. I can understand replacing a function if you need the command space, but as far as I can tell, it was just pulled entirely? Now it's a lot more complicated to clone subobject geo in place (Detatch, clone & element)
Replies
In max2010 it is kind of broken also you can't yet customize it yourself. There is a way to get it vertical but some of the collapsing and rollover effects are missing or something like that. So yeah its broken and incomplete in max2010. Lets hope it gets better with 2011.
But thanks.
i'd still prefer to keep the old ui
2009 ftw
QFT
Maybe not on a chart, but 3ds Max is the number 1 3D professional animation tool (by revenue and by seats). If you looked at it on a chart, you'd see that pre-economic melt-down, we were having record quarters each quarter. Since early 2009, 3ds Max sales have been increasing every quarter again. So, if customers vote with their $, then it's pretty clear what they are voting for.
Annual releases:
- These exist because customers insist on value for each year's subscription. If they didn't exist, then there would be complaints that we're not doing enough. Right now, there are complaints that we're doing too much (or not the way you would do it). Autodesk is looking at this issue seriously and trying to figure out what the happy medium will be.
Ribbon:
- Some love it, some hate it. For the haters, we are introducing new customization tools that let you totally customize the layout. We've also improved performance - but know we can do even more. Since we haven't announced quite yet, not much to talk about. But we've been listening to the complaints. You'll also have much better vertical methods of using the ribbon. The ribbon is here to stay, but we are going to work on it until it becomes an asset to the majority of your workflows.
Viewcube/steering wheel:
- Came from Maya and Autodesk adopted it as a universal feature. Actually, the 3ds Max Dev team didn't have to spend any cycles on this so it did not cost you any features. It'd be great if you could simply turn it off if it bothers you. It seems everyone makes it seem that this was some huge feature that we worked on while you didn't get any other features. If you care about the facts, then you'd tell people that the 3ds Max team didn't work on it and it had zero impact on our planned features. I hate to take away such a popular bashing instrument, but it is totally fictional the way it is communicated.
Problems:
BTW, we actually have a method of communicating directly with the development team. Log problems here:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5600504&linkID=9241177
Future:
In roughly 24 hours you'll have a lot more information to either bash us with or praise us. You won't have to wait long. I hope a few of you find something useful.
The whole subscription thing leading to annual releases is an issue many people won't even know about, they think of the package as a one-off buy for themselves, and thus get confused when a new version comes out (what seems like) shortly after they bought their version.
And without a subscription, you'd end up paying over the odds for what some may regard as "minor" feature updates (obviously the actual content and usefulness varies by release, and by what field you work in).
Nice to see you posting here though, it's always good to know that the actual developers look around and take notice of stuff, since most users (for some reason) never actually submit their crash reports or use the "Request A Feature" button in the Help menu... and then, after not reporting a consistent crash for over a year, wonder why it's not fixed in the next release, heh
Thanks for linking the defect submission form, too, I bet most people on these boards don't even know that exists.
Edit: Slate material editor looks awesome, Max has been hurting for want of a good node-based editor for a long while now.
Will Quicksilver work with RTT?
Regarding the Ribbon, so can we freely customize it to look more like polyboost once again? Can I split up the buttons so I can have a side bar on both sides? With Polyboost in 2009 I have PolyDraw & Loop Tools docked on the right while selection, other modeling, and transform tools are on the left.
Is the Slate Material Editor optional? I'm one of the few out there who like the current non-node based set up.
First of all, thanks for taking the time to post here at Polycount. With all due respect, I hate the ribbon in AutoCAD and in 3ds Max. I don't see how it's any better than a standard menu bar. It comes across as very gimmicky. If it was similar to InDesign and Photoshop, where only the tool you select jumps out, it would work better for me. Having the whole ribbon pop up for one tool is annoying.
I absolutely love the graphite modeling tools in 2010, but don't understand why they weren't simply integrated into the control panel under editable poly. Seriously, why aren't grow ring, ring mode, etc located allong with the editable poly selection tools? Why do I have to go to different menus?
If the idea is to eventually replace the control panel with a fully customizable ribbon, that's something that will take some getting used to, but I can wrap my head around.
If not, then having editable poly modeling tools in two locations, on opposite ends of the screen, is a terrible idea that wastes time and adds to the confusion of the interface.
Hearing about customization concerning the ribbon is good news, though.
Also, that node-based material editor looks fucking ace. I can't wait to see it in action.
http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/ken/excalibur_xbr_revealed
That makes a lot of sense. Best of luck with everything you're trying to do.
If it works as it should and is customizable I'm all for it. I thought it was a great idea when I first read about it. But I can't say I'm crazy about it right now. I'm Hopeful with the updates I'll like using it instead of just dealing with it as is.
Is this the same as filling out the bug report that pops up when max crashes? I'd rather just keep filling out those crash reports since it gathers a bunch of the info for me. Is there a way to launch that reporting tool in case we have a bug that doesn't trigger it or just have a suggestion?
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=69755&page=2
I wrote up a list of things I find frustrating and broken. I've written some of this up as bugs and officially submitted them a few weeks ago, using the form you linked to earlier and through the crash bug reporting. I'm never really sure where they end up or if they will even get addressed. Somethings I've brought up in the past have made it in, not sure if its a coincidence or not but I'm thankful all the same.
http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/ken/is_this_release_of_3ds_max_any_more_or_less_stable_than_prior_releases
We're trying to get the community more engaged in helping us plan the future. It's not easy, there are a lot of you in many communities with a zillion workflows that are mission critical.
Apps like Silo and Modo are more comfortable to work in because of this capability - especially when they allow me to take full advantage of a 5 button mouse with wheel and modifier keys... hell even blender is getting it. Just sayin' ;]
Thanks for posting on polycount though nice to see you take notice of our 'little' community! =]
Looking forward to the new features.
I have been using 2010 since beta and I love it. I have it running smooth as can be on my machine and the graphite tools work great and the ribbon is pretty small on my interface so I'm not too worried.
Heres a shot...
QFA
Hey Ken, glad you're here to respond.
If Autodesk decided the viewcube/steering wheel as universal feature, Is it possible to have keyboard viewport navigation become universal/standard like alt+LMB,MMB,RMB or at least customisable? Sometimes we have to jumps between apps and the first thing to tackle usually is inconsistent viewport navigation e.g from maya to max or softimage.
Thanks.
The one thing I couldn't find info on is viewport performance. Is this improved? This to me is like # f'ing 1 thing that needs to be brought up to par with XSI and Maya. If AD gets this fixed Max will be uber awesome. I can't stress that enough. People can work around UI with with Quad Menus and keyboard shortcuts, but there is no way to get around a sluggish viewport.
Anyways awesome stuff, I'm pretty excited about how complete of a package Max is becoming.
I second the idea of breaking UI from functionality. Ideally all the UI logic (the modifier panel...) would be put into something customizeable like maxscript. So instead of say using the maxscript wrapper functionality to override UI, the whole thing is a maxscript in the first place that just links to functions exposed in the modifiers, making it easy to change layout and alike. It would also get rid of the frustration moments that some things are exposed in SDK but not in maxscript, or some are neither but hardcoded ui elements.
the customizable views you showed in XBR and so on, are really nice, but it all depends how customizable they really are at the end. Things like custom input event tracking and so on, currently it's quite hardcoded with the "mouse tools" or the internal c++ stuff. The core architecture of max is great and very very powerful/flexible, with the fnpublish stuff you also have the ingredients to split funcionality from ui. Eventhough it will be a shitload of work breaking all the ui stuff out of the dlls. Now if you could break even some of the input stuff out, it would be pure candy. So that custom tool-modes could be scripted... making use of the mouse buttons and all that as mentioned.
with AD controlling all the major apps now, one should think they have the time and resources to take their time to make these major changes. The subscription stuff is ADs policy, in the old days we used to get a service pack for free, now we basically pay for it with the yearly release stuff. But similar has been stated by Neil Blevins on the cgsociety board as well. I don't think even if AD would not release an update one year, that it would loose significantly in market share, simply as the ecosystem of AD related tools is overwhelming, gazillions of tutorials, videos, everyone knows max/maya are the top tools used, warez/student versions everywhere which makes sure new artists will stay familiar with the tools. So "people voting with their $" I think isn't entirely fair in this monopoly like situation we are in, it's certainly great for AD
I would wonder how much money is spent on the development team of max, given how cheap buying the softimage crew was, I guess it just isn't really much, which would also explain why a lot of "big features" are achieved by buying in former 3rd party plugins (slate = nodejoe, graphite = polyboost, CAT...). I have spent enough time in the SDK, to say hats off to you guys for maintaining all this, it's gigantic, but it's nice to see steps in the right direction visibly in the SDK. I just wish AD would put more money in their hands or take their time.
but anyway the XBR customizeable UI I think can be really cool, allowing each faction of the multiple max users (architect/design vis, games, vfx...) to find the most efficient setup for them.
saving to last version for backwards compatibility is quite a nice move.
1) Giant gaps bloat these windows larger than they need to be. This is most visible in the "compacted" view.
2) Another feature of the "compacted" view is inconsistent icon size. Specifically giant icons created to be viewed from space? These same icons are an appropriate size when in expanded view so why not keep them all the same size.
1 & 2 combined, lead to it looking pretty shoddy and haphazard, especially considering there isn't much consistency between the various modes.
3) I'm sure someone really appreciates these pop-ups. It would be great to be able to turn them off or at least set the delay timer so I don't accidentally trigger them, yes even the little ones.
3a) Maybe a check box in the pop-up itself that way people can shut off specific ones?
3b) Maybe remove the text from the buttons, put it in the first pop up and move the text that currently resides in the first mini pop-up to the expanded. So much space could be saved and would really represent a true "compacted mode".
4) The upper right corner is becoming a dead zone, even more so when you have the ribbon expanded. This compacts down the command panel even more.
Q: "Why don't you float the command panel on top? Problem solved right?"
A: "No, not really. Now things disappear under it, your time bar, your newly expanded viewport, the Graphite Modeling Tools (when specific tools are active in expanded mode) all disappear under command panel now.
There is enough wasted space in GMT to make it fit between the command panel and the left side of the screen without having to force a smaller command panel.
5) Under Customize > Customize User Interface, the keyboard shortcuts for Graphite Modeling Tools are under "Ribbon - Modeling".
Not under G for Graphite where most people look since that is how it was branded. R for Ribbon the new UI element that isn't specific to modeling or graphite tools.
Don't let the other two entries fool ya. "Modeling: Graphite Tools" & "Modeling: Graphite Tools Internal" There aren't any tools be be found there. People still complain they can't set keyboard shortcuts, its because they can't find them not because they don't exist.
Now hopefully these things will be addressed, from what I've read so far, it seems like some will, others maybe and a few probably not.
Edit: I now get what you mean. Anyway, you can put some custom stuff there like script buttons and what not.
The problem here is that max is trying to address a very large audience with a single UI. You can change stuff, but it barely makes a difference. It sould come with preset UIs for different industries.
PS: Btw I really wish artists are given the option to switch back to the old style icons (pre 2010) in next versions of Max. :poly121: A "user interface" would suggest users have some freedom, right. Forcing a change is uncool.
Qs will not work with RTT at this time. Sorry. I'll be posting a lot more on Qs on my blog soon. We'll tell you exactly what it is and isn't. It's less than some people think it is, so we want to set the right expectations.
Go check out the videos on customization on the Area. I think they'll answer your questions.
We did not get rid of the old UI for the ME. It's there with some new features.
This is a good point. We are looking at things like marking menus and other UI improvements as part of XBR. Sorry we can't get it all done in 12 months.
I can forgive the mess as long as it gets cleaned up. I'm thankful that Graphite modeling tools were included in 2010 and it doesn't stop me from using them, even if they where a little messy. I like the road you guys are on and the XBR plans look pretty hot. Some of us are pretty eager to drop the old school.
But you have to pardon some of our skepticism, some legacy bugs and mess have been in max for a long time. It also takes a while to change peoples perceptions. Not everyone is on subscription or gets the latest version when it comes out. So there's always a hint of "what if they move onto something else and never get around to cleaning this up?"
To you're credit you guys have made a great effort over the last few years to get some of those things cleaned up so I don't want you to think we're all ungrateful bastards who think its all broken all the time.
Hopefully you understand we have to live in your house while you remodel and its not always easy living...
I second opening up some of the locked down features like mouse buttons and a handful of keyboard shortcuts. I'm comfortable switching between max, maya/mudbox but it would be great if I could unify the viewport nav... read not viewcube.
With XBR, we have at least provided the explanation for why it might be a little messy and why it might be a good thing.
BTW, we are busy looking at the normal tangent issue and one of your forum members has joined the beta to give us some religion on this issue. We're trying, thanks for having some patience.
Ah, cool - I muuuuuuch prefer Maya's marking menus to Max's quad menus, the Quads feel cluttered and slow to me, marking menus are super fast by comparison (they tend to have less options to direct access but a lot of the Max quad menu options I find a bit unnecessary anyway)
this
How about you document exactly what we need to do? We're researching this issue right now...
[EDIT] That must have been a dream or something, cause I can't find what I THOUGHT was there, anywhere on the net... Still, would be a cool feature.
That's too bad. I got a bit excited when I read Quicksilver would utilize the GPU cores. xNormal does this with CUDA I think and people love it for how fast it can bake AO maps. For a second I was hoping I could stay within max now. I personally like how the AO maps look if max bakes them in regular scanline on CompleteMap with skylight/light tracer. Only problem is how slow it is.
I think they're referring to how they prefer the way Modo handles chamfer. Someone else will need to post comparison samples. I thought I seen them somewhere here one time.
Second this, I´ll find out what the hell it´s called.
Edge Chamfer:
Corner Chamfer:
I would also love it if preserve UVs would work when moving points on the UV shell edge. As it is, it seems to work fine for any interior points, but when you move one on a UV seam, it does wacky stuff.
Also, I'm still baffled why features just get removed. Notably, going from 9-2008 (I thinK?) not being able to clone objects and faces in place by shift clicking the move widget really threw me for a loop. I can understand replacing a function if you need the command space, but as far as I can tell, it was just pulled entirely? Now it's a lot more complicated to clone subobject geo in place (Detatch, clone & element)
Thanks again for being involved here.