Still around. Though more grey hairs. We're looking at refinements as we speak. We think we need to tweak some aspects of Caddies before they become everyone's friends. We're planning to do a public disclosure of our UI plans towards the end of the year. Watch for that.
The viewport canvas is getting some love. Can't be too specific about when or how. Sorry.
Is it true that there's some kind of plan for a modifier stack replacement using the new ribbon ui ? (a simple "maybe" will suffice thanks )
Im with you on caddies Autocon, they make what would otherwise be a great update a complete pain to work with.
beatkitano: Why would you want the modifier stack replaced? Its one of the best things about Max, and the ribbon isn't exactly popular (ranking up there with viewcube).
Polyhertz: If it would actually work in vertical mode, I'd go as far as to say I actually quite like the Ribbon.
It doesn't however, despite promises - in fact, they've managed to make it worse, as it now basically only works minimised, otherwise resorting to gigantic thumbnails for sections that you need to hover over to see the content. This might be because of my vertical resolution, but honestly: who cares what causes it. FIX IT.
I'd rather scroll than having the current system.
Im with you on caddies Autocon, they make what would otherwise be a great update a complete pain to work with.
beatkitano: Why would you want the modifier stack replaced? Its one of the best things about Max, and the ribbon isn't exactly popular (ranking up there with viewcube).
I "heard" rumors of a new alternative for the modifier stack ui, not the actual modifier stack workflow, that would be using the new ribbon system, enhanced of course. I would like to hear there's some truth here, or just rumors. And like i said a "maybe" would be enough
And i actually quite like the ribbon too, when you've customized it to your liking, you can almost ditch the entire horrible 3ds ui (except for stack that's why i'm asking)
So my school being the early adopter it is has "updated" to max 2011 and I was able to mess around with it a bit.
-the material editor has been replaced with an extremely nice node based one that almost looks exactly like the one you see in udk (you also have an option to go back to the old editor) but this one is so much nicer makes material building 100s of times easier
-the Caddie system is a pain in the ass to work with at first but It works after playing around with it for a few days. One nice thing is that the caddie will stay in place no matter where I rotate the viewport and it stays up when I select a different face/edge/vert etc
-Motion Builder has received a huge update in that it now supports multiple creature types etc. It's called CAT and you can select one of their predefined rigs that include anything from stylized cartoon characters to crabs to horses minotaurs dragons etc. This is actually something I am extremely excited about. I'll take screenie's tomorrow and post em here.
-The Ribbon is still buggie as ever and pretty useless they did however add mesh painting support in that you can pick an object say grass cards and then paint them across a landscape. However it's not very useful in that it will align the cards/tree's/etc to the vert normals so you don't get a very convincing distribution or placement initially so you have to go in and manually fix them anyways.
-They also allow you to minimize the control panel now so it hides it self when you are not mousing over it.
I've been using the trial for a few days trying to remove bloat and get the UI back to the one I know and love (2008/2009.) Here's what I got:
Things I hate:
1. First thing I HATE about the 2010 and 2011 interface is the info center in the top left. For new users it seems useful however for people who know what they are doing we don't need it. Currently, you CANNOT turn this off without a script! Give us a way to disable the info center for good!
2. The replacement for the file menu is too complex. It takes up a quarter of the screen and you need to go through an extra menu just to merge a file. I enabled the classic File menu by loading the .mnu file included called 3dsMax2009.mnu, then I disabled the icons in the quick launcher thing next to it. This mnu file also restores the classic Undo/Redo functionality.
3. I used the 2009 dark theme and replaced the icons with the ones from 2009. I like them more because they're simpler and more solid.
4. Ribbon still feels tacked on. Really, it's awful. The PolyBoost tools are fantastic but they aren't integrated well at all. If they're only usable in Editable Poly and in Edit Poly modifiers then how come they aren't with the rest of those tools? At least give us the option to dock the huge ribbon toolbar to the sides.
5. Caddies suck IMO. Though I can see how they can be useful, I just do not like them. Give us the option to use the old style menus please.
Things I LIKE:
1. Viewport performance. Wow, I never expected this. In Max 2009 once I hit 4 million tris or so I started to chug, and in 2011 it's handling 12 million tris like a champ.
2. New realtime features. Viewport AA is a little buggy, but then again I'm on ATI so who knows. It generally works pretty well. The ambient occlusion and soft shadows both look and run fantastic as well. Along with the 3 Point Shader or Xoliul's shader this is now a fantastic option for displaying assets.
3. Snap doesn't suck as much anymore. It's now very clear what you're snapping to, and it's far easier than before.
4. Object painter. It's about time, but the one in SoulburnScripts is still better.
5. I like the new material editor, and it's great that we still have the option to use the old editor.
Hey why upgrade when you have a good thing? (max 2009)
From all the new features the only one that catches my attention is the accessibility to convert from max > solidworks (and other CAD software).
I would have loved it if that feature was in 2009 .
Currently, you CANNOT turn this off without a script! Give us a way to disable the info center for good!
Can you share this script please
Also when I remove or add buttons to the quick access bar, they revert to the default set upon restarting even if I save the .mnu and the rest of the ui.
Same with the "hide menu bar". I have to manually hide the menu bar each time I start max because I can't find a way to disable it in a startup script
yozora: Yeah, I can't believe they missed that. Everything you add to the quick access through the ribbon dissapears upon reload, and the bit in the customisation dialog is just broken, often adding a lot of empty entries.
Another example of how they're adding half-arsed functions that often don't get fixed untill the next version. And thanks to the subscription model, it doesn't matter how shoddy the new version is, people have already paid them for it.
That's certainly not how we see it. Customers haven't "already paid us" for a new release. We have to have a compelling new release to encourage customers to renew their subscription. There is a strong business rationale to get things right.
I don't think any software in such a high-tech industry can completely satisfy every users needs in every release. Yes, there are gotchas and we're trying to watch for them on the forums and address them when we can find something reproducible. It's best to report these via our existing systems. http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5600504&linkID=9241177
It may be less fun to log these problems with us, but it is a zillion times more likely to get you better software
But Ken, surely you see the difference between 'not satisfying everyone' and having a history of tacking on new features and not thinking through your changes?
I was excited about Xbr, but with recent changes I'm not so sure I'll like the direction it will take. I'm a fan of the idea behind the Ribbon, but after having tried 2011 I see it still doesn't work to my satisfaction in vertical mode. Also the nature of it being tacked on means you don't use it exclusively, it's just another fragmentation of the user interface. Now I realise this is an intermediary step, but that's hardly encouraging.
Also, I've always filled out the crash reports when something reproducable happened, often including my email; I never received a message back, so from my viewpoint it's been useless. Not in the least because you have the inexcusable habit of fixing things in the next version rather than a patch! Now my previous employers have always upgraded relatively quickly, but for a small company that doesn't need the latest cutting edge features and doesn't subscribe, they're not getting those fixes either. And if you don't understand why people wouldn't subscribe, not all companies can count on a constant flow of income, so there are still a lot of people who would rather not take the risk of going through a rough patch and basically being locked out of their software.
Your statement rings especially false to me, since if customers don't renew their subscription when they're not satisfied, what options are they left with?
They then have to either switch to other software (costly, pipeline issues, retraining) or... what? Purchase 3ds max the regular way? If they're dissatisfied with the latest version, and that's all they CAN buy (for rather high prices), that's suddenly not such an appealing option either. The only way to then keep the 'privilige' of using previous versions is to continue paying for the subscription, as I understand it.
It seems to me the subscription model seems appealing to customers at first due to its lower prices (initially), but after a while can become hard to step out of.
You should also understand that you get a momentary glimpse of our plans in the form of a release. The way things are doesn't always imply the way things will be, it is just a snapshot in time. We fully understand that some aspects of our UI have been compromised by the core efforts we've been doing around XBR. Perhaps we've made mistakes in how we're organizing the construction and the detours we're sending you down. This is certainly our fault. This is why we've taken a goal to share our UI vision with the public in the December timeframe in an XBR update.
As to fixes, remember, with several hundreds of thousands of users, we can't always talk to each and everyone. If your bug fell into one of our CER buckets, and there were enough of you in that bucket, then we focused on fixing that bucket. It's not necesary to talk to everyone in the bucket and most buckets get fixed without any contact because we can see where the problem lies. If we need more information, then we use the emails to contact someone in the bucket.
I think you can agree that our logic of tackling the largest buckets before the smaller buckets means we're fixing things that affect most users. If your bucket hasn't been addressed, then the best thing to do is to swamp our CER system with failures in that particular bucket. It automatically pops up as something to fix.
Most 3ds Max customers are on subscription and it is a financial imperitive that we provide value to them. You don't have to believe me, but that is the case. Historically, they've received an annual release plus further subscription-only efforts during the year. Providing the most possible value to subscription users is what our business is all about and has been for several years now. That's why such a large number of 3ds Max users are on subscription - because they get value from it. They vote with their $$ every year.
BTW, send me your email via message and I will ask someone to look up your CER bug.
Research shows we've got about a 50% improvement in start-up times. So, we know we can make some progress here. This is from a previous start. First time after a system restart won't show these gains.
Research shows we've got about a 50% improvement in start-up times. So, we know we can make some progress here. This is from a previous start. First time after a system restart won't show these gains.
more features = longer startup time.
one of the problems with 3ds max is that there's a ton of duplicate features and tools, that basically does the same, but in a slightly different way, or one feature is the "old" way of doing it, and another one is the "newer" way of doing it. but thats not really the worst part of it. the worst part of it is how the plugins are managed.
for example, there's a ton of useless export/import formats. i decided to decrease startup time by removing formats i never used like .3ds, .ai .dwg etc., to the 2-3 i use regularly, but all of a sudden, features that i used regularly started disappearing from the interface.
It also seemed like several formats were intertwined, so removing 1 removed 4 others.
on top of that some export formats weren't even implemented in their own DLU/DLE, but implemented in other plugins, so weren't possible to remove without removing large parts of the 3ds max UI.
Also an option to disable plugin via plugin-manager would be nice instead move the plugin files out the plugin folder to disable them.
I can't agree strongly enough with this. Giving users the ability to disable plug-ings (and not just stock but also custom-plugins) without some back water way would be great. Saving "plug-in profiles" would be icing on the cake.
I know a lot of modelers who don't need reactor, biped or particle flow and would love to have them disappear at start up. I know I would love to disable puppetshop except for when I absolutely need to have it running.
Yes, this is what XBR: Diet is all about. We are mapping all the plug-in dependencies and rearchitecting some plug-ins so that they can be dynamically loaded on need. We are also trying to move partners to the same system.
It's certainly good to know that submitting a bug multiple times moves it up the waiting list rather than annoy you with duplicates to have to sort through. I'll keep this in mind. I'm also glad to see you're open to criticism, but notice that you didn't really addres most of the things I said.
You repeat your claim that customers vote with their money, but fail to acknowledge that unsubscribing really isn't as appealing an option as you might think. The reason I harp on about this is because I want to make sure you understand this, as it does undermine your belief that those on subscription are by default 'happy customers'.
Ofcourse, from your perspective it's a dream come true. Everyone's on the latest three versions (no support for dinosaurs), you have a steady income, and even those that would normally stick with the one version they bought will keep paying up, even if just to get the subscription benefits (being able to install at work and home, for one).
Either way, I appreciate you posting here, even if feedback might be overwhelmingly negative at times.
This is one of those situations where it doesn't matter what you think (read on, I don't mean it the way you're thinking right now). It matters what we think. We think the best way to make money is to drive subscription value. You can try to convince me that it doesn't work that way at Autodesk, but that is the way we look at it and Autodesk does in general. You can argue any theoretcial perspective you want, I'm just telling you the way things are and I think I'm qualified to do that.
Certainly, I wouldn't dream of telling you what your thoughts are. Just to provide an outsiders perspective on something I disagreed with on a 'moral' level, not a financial one. You clearly see this as the way forward, and that's undoubtedly well-founded.
I generally balk at subscriptions for what I see/treat as products rather than services -for the aforementioned reasons- and that's not an agenda I'm trying to push here. I agree that subscriptions have become a viable option for the added benefits, however.
Hey Ken, thanks alot for posting here. You will get a tremendous amount of viable info by sticking around, as I am sure you noticed already.
As for features and improvements, I have a very simple question thats been in my head ever since I used Max more and more professionally. In what way could the user base become an efficient force behind some core feature of the program? More specifically, is there a specific person we could forward specific suggestions to ?
Reason why I ask that is because some stuff now has a taste of design by committee and that frightens me a little. I absolutely love Maxs modeling toolset, as it remains #1 out there in my opinion... however I got the feeling it is becoming outdated in the way things are done (plus bugs and quirks) and new UI esthetics dont seem to help on that front.
Maybe there is people willing to contribute, here on PCount - centralizing suggestions and coming up with focused descriptions of important areas to tackle. Things as simple as being able to select edges in smoothed mode by clicking on them instead of clicking on the cage, and so on (maybe its in by now, im a bit behind the times on that one)
I really wish Max the best future possible as it really is an outstanding app. Ive just been a bit concerned by its direction lately.
Pior's talking about isoline editing up there, by the way, when he says selecting edges.
Which, no, isn't in yet. But I believe it's something that was actually mentioned at one point in relation to XBR. Can you confirm or deny that for us, Ken?
How about a new UV editor that isn't dependent on a modifier but can be called up at any time like the material editor. It seems silly to have to apply a modifier to edit the UV's. It's not so bad early on when the stack is fluid and you can collapse at any moment without a care in world but once your stack starts to become a little more rigid it becomes a painful balancing act.
How about UV Shell boarder selection?
What about standardized selection transfer methods in the UV editor, like edit poly (Hold Shift and click Edge mode to convert the selection to edges), instead we're stuck using a slow non-standard "select" drop down menu that does the same thing but takes longer.
It would be great to have some of these long standing workflow and UI issues ironed out before you guys get too carried away with caddies and ... viewcubes...
Replies
Is it true that there's some kind of plan for a modifier stack replacement using the new ribbon ui ? (a simple "maybe" will suffice thanks
beatkitano: Why would you want the modifier stack replaced? Its one of the best things about Max, and the ribbon isn't exactly popular (ranking up there with viewcube).
It doesn't however, despite promises - in fact, they've managed to make it worse, as it now basically only works minimised, otherwise resorting to gigantic thumbnails for sections that you need to hover over to see the content. This might be because of my vertical resolution, but honestly: who cares what causes it. FIX IT.
I'd rather scroll than having the current system.
I "heard" rumors of a new alternative for the modifier stack ui, not the actual modifier stack workflow, that would be using the new ribbon system, enhanced of course. I would like to hear there's some truth here, or just rumors. And like i said a "maybe" would be enough
And i actually quite like the ribbon too, when you've customized it to your liking, you can almost ditch the entire horrible 3ds ui (except for stack that's why i'm asking)
-the material editor has been replaced with an extremely nice node based one that almost looks exactly like the one you see in udk (you also have an option to go back to the old editor) but this one is so much nicer makes material building 100s of times easier
-the Caddie system is a pain in the ass to work with at first but It works after playing around with it for a few days. One nice thing is that the caddie will stay in place no matter where I rotate the viewport and it stays up when I select a different face/edge/vert etc
-Motion Builder has received a huge update in that it now supports multiple creature types etc. It's called CAT and you can select one of their predefined rigs that include anything from stylized cartoon characters to crabs to horses minotaurs dragons etc. This is actually something I am extremely excited about. I'll take screenie's tomorrow and post em here.
-The Ribbon is still buggie as ever and pretty useless they did however add mesh painting support in that you can pick an object say grass cards and then paint them across a landscape. However it's not very useful in that it will align the cards/tree's/etc to the vert normals so you don't get a very convincing distribution or placement initially so you have to go in and manually fix them anyways.
-They also allow you to minimize the control panel now so it hides it self when you are not mousing over it.
Things I hate:
1. First thing I HATE about the 2010 and 2011 interface is the info center in the top left. For new users it seems useful however for people who know what they are doing we don't need it. Currently, you CANNOT turn this off without a script! Give us a way to disable the info center for good!
2. The replacement for the file menu is too complex. It takes up a quarter of the screen and you need to go through an extra menu just to merge a file. I enabled the classic File menu by loading the .mnu file included called 3dsMax2009.mnu, then I disabled the icons in the quick launcher thing next to it. This mnu file also restores the classic Undo/Redo functionality.
3. I used the 2009 dark theme and replaced the icons with the ones from 2009. I like them more because they're simpler and more solid.
4. Ribbon still feels tacked on. Really, it's awful. The PolyBoost tools are fantastic but they aren't integrated well at all. If they're only usable in Editable Poly and in Edit Poly modifiers then how come they aren't with the rest of those tools? At least give us the option to dock the huge ribbon toolbar to the sides.
5. Caddies suck IMO. Though I can see how they can be useful, I just do not like them. Give us the option to use the old style menus please.
Things I LIKE:
1. Viewport performance. Wow, I never expected this. In Max 2009 once I hit 4 million tris or so I started to chug, and in 2011 it's handling 12 million tris like a champ.
2. New realtime features. Viewport AA is a little buggy, but then again I'm on ATI so who knows. It generally works pretty well. The ambient occlusion and soft shadows both look and run fantastic as well. Along with the 3 Point Shader or Xoliul's shader this is now a fantastic option for displaying assets.
3. Snap doesn't suck as much anymore. It's now very clear what you're snapping to, and it's far easier than before.
4. Object painter. It's about time, but the one in SoulburnScripts is still better.
5. I like the new material editor, and it's great that we still have the option to use the old editor.
From all the new features the only one that catches my attention is the accessibility to convert from max > solidworks (and other CAD software).
I would have loved it if that feature was in 2009
Can you share this script please
Also when I remove or add buttons to the quick access bar, they revert to the default set upon restarting even if I save the .mnu and the rest of the ui.
Same with the "hide menu bar". I have to manually hide the menu bar each time I start max because I can't find a way to disable it in a startup script
Another example of how they're adding half-arsed functions that often don't get fixed untill the next version. And thanks to the subscription model, it doesn't matter how shoddy the new version is, people have already paid them for it.
I don't think any software in such a high-tech industry can completely satisfy every users needs in every release. Yes, there are gotchas and we're trying to watch for them on the forums and address them when we can find something reproducible. It's best to report these via our existing systems.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5600504&linkID=9241177
It may be less fun to log these problems with us, but it is a zillion times more likely to get you better software
I was excited about Xbr, but with recent changes I'm not so sure I'll like the direction it will take. I'm a fan of the idea behind the Ribbon, but after having tried 2011 I see it still doesn't work to my satisfaction in vertical mode. Also the nature of it being tacked on means you don't use it exclusively, it's just another fragmentation of the user interface. Now I realise this is an intermediary step, but that's hardly encouraging.
Also, I've always filled out the crash reports when something reproducable happened, often including my email; I never received a message back, so from my viewpoint it's been useless. Not in the least because you have the inexcusable habit of fixing things in the next version rather than a patch! Now my previous employers have always upgraded relatively quickly, but for a small company that doesn't need the latest cutting edge features and doesn't subscribe, they're not getting those fixes either. And if you don't understand why people wouldn't subscribe, not all companies can count on a constant flow of income, so there are still a lot of people who would rather not take the risk of going through a rough patch and basically being locked out of their software.
Your statement rings especially false to me, since if customers don't renew their subscription when they're not satisfied, what options are they left with?
They then have to either switch to other software (costly, pipeline issues, retraining) or... what? Purchase 3ds max the regular way? If they're dissatisfied with the latest version, and that's all they CAN buy (for rather high prices), that's suddenly not such an appealing option either. The only way to then keep the 'privilige' of using previous versions is to continue paying for the subscription, as I understand it.
It seems to me the subscription model seems appealing to customers at first due to its lower prices (initially), but after a while can become hard to step out of.
As to fixes, remember, with several hundreds of thousands of users, we can't always talk to each and everyone. If your bug fell into one of our CER buckets, and there were enough of you in that bucket, then we focused on fixing that bucket. It's not necesary to talk to everyone in the bucket and most buckets get fixed without any contact because we can see where the problem lies. If we need more information, then we use the emails to contact someone in the bucket.
I think you can agree that our logic of tackling the largest buckets before the smaller buckets means we're fixing things that affect most users. If your bucket hasn't been addressed, then the best thing to do is to swamp our CER system with failures in that particular bucket. It automatically pops up as something to fix.
Most 3ds Max customers are on subscription and it is a financial imperitive that we provide value to them. You don't have to believe me, but that is the case. Historically, they've received an annual release plus further subscription-only efforts during the year. Providing the most possible value to subscription users is what our business is all about and has been for several years now. That's why such a large number of 3ds Max users are on subscription - because they get value from it. They vote with their $$ every year.
BTW, send me your email via message and I will ask someone to look up your CER bug.
Also an option to disable plugin via plugin-manager would be nice instead move the plugin files out the plugin folder to disable them.
more features = longer startup time.
one of the problems with 3ds max is that there's a ton of duplicate features and tools, that basically does the same, but in a slightly different way, or one feature is the "old" way of doing it, and another one is the "newer" way of doing it. but thats not really the worst part of it. the worst part of it is how the plugins are managed.
for example, there's a ton of useless export/import formats. i decided to decrease startup time by removing formats i never used like .3ds, .ai .dwg etc., to the 2-3 i use regularly, but all of a sudden, features that i used regularly started disappearing from the interface.
It also seemed like several formats were intertwined, so removing 1 removed 4 others.
on top of that some export formats weren't even implemented in their own DLU/DLE, but implemented in other plugins, so weren't possible to remove without removing large parts of the 3ds max UI.
I know a lot of modelers who don't need reactor, biped or particle flow and would love to have them disappear at start up. I know I would love to disable puppetshop except for when I absolutely need to have it running.
You repeat your claim that customers vote with their money, but fail to acknowledge that unsubscribing really isn't as appealing an option as you might think. The reason I harp on about this is because I want to make sure you understand this, as it does undermine your belief that those on subscription are by default 'happy customers'.
Ofcourse, from your perspective it's a dream come true. Everyone's on the latest three versions (no support for dinosaurs), you have a steady income, and even those that would normally stick with the one version they bought will keep paying up, even if just to get the subscription benefits (being able to install at work and home, for one).
Either way, I appreciate you posting here, even if feedback might be overwhelmingly negative at times.
I generally balk at subscriptions for what I see/treat as products rather than services -for the aforementioned reasons- and that's not an agenda I'm trying to push here. I agree that subscriptions have become a viable option for the added benefits, however.
As for features and improvements, I have a very simple question thats been in my head ever since I used Max more and more professionally. In what way could the user base become an efficient force behind some core feature of the program? More specifically, is there a specific person we could forward specific suggestions to ?
Reason why I ask that is because some stuff now has a taste of design by committee and that frightens me a little. I absolutely love Maxs modeling toolset, as it remains #1 out there in my opinion... however I got the feeling it is becoming outdated in the way things are done (plus bugs and quirks) and new UI esthetics dont seem to help on that front.
Maybe there is people willing to contribute, here on PCount - centralizing suggestions and coming up with focused descriptions of important areas to tackle. Things as simple as being able to select edges in smoothed mode by clicking on them instead of clicking on the cage, and so on (maybe its in by now, im a bit behind the times on that one)
I really wish Max the best future possible as it really is an outstanding app. Ive just been a bit concerned by its direction lately.
Best luck!
Which, no, isn't in yet. But I believe it's something that was actually mentioned at one point in relation to XBR. Can you confirm or deny that for us, Ken?
How about UV Shell boarder selection?
What about standardized selection transfer methods in the UV editor, like edit poly (Hold Shift and click Edge mode to convert the selection to edges), instead we're stuck using a slow non-standard "select" drop down menu that does the same thing but takes longer.
It would be great to have some of these long standing workflow and UI issues ironed out before you guys get too carried away with caddies and ... viewcubes...