This is especially put into perspective after several years of doing jobs you really don't care for.
Staying up until the wee hours of the morning working on my portfolio is just a fact of life now; I wouldn't have it any other way. Although I am always pretty tired at my 'regular' job.
What's all this "settling down" stuff? You can have kids and move. You can have kids and relocate to a new country. It's a fun adventure and can add greatly to a child's life experience. Layoffs aren't too great a problem either providing you are good at what you do and saved some money to get by for a bit.
My wife is pregnant and I would never resign myself to staying in the same job and location for the rest of my life. The world is out there to experience and explore. Each to their own I suppose.
Wow, talk about being subjective.
Not everyone is in the same circumstances as you. I applaud the headstrong advice, but it is not a practical way of life for everyone.
Not to mention moving around is really tough for kids. No matter how much you think it's a great child's life experience, it's a lot harder on kids than you may think. Children like stability, they don't want to have to say farewell to their friends ever year or two.
It's great if this works out for you, but like CounterSeal said, it's definitely not a practical way of life for the vast majority of us.
yeah, there's the common old man quote: "Find something you love to do and then find someone to pay you to do it"
you never hear someone saying "I'm so glad I never followed my passion" usually there's just a ton of regret.
Now the fact that you've only just begun messing with the Unreal engine which has been around for almost 10 years or so in some form, is this truly your passion?
What's all this "settling down" stuff? You can have kids and move. You can have kids and relocate to a new country. It's a fun adventure and can add greatly to a child's life experience. Layoffs aren't too great a problem either providing you are good at what you do and saved some money to get by for a bit.
My wife is pregnant and I would never resign myself to staying in the same job and location for the rest of my life. The world is out there to experience and explore. Each to their own I suppose.
That's a pretty naive assumption.
My dad was in a military family, they moved constantly and constantly being the new kid who never got to really know anyone meant he never made any close friends and didn't really develop great social skills.
Of the people I know who moved a lot but actually grew up with internet access and mass communication, lots ended up as reclusive shut-ins with serious social anxiety (a crippling problem in a couple cases) because the internet was the only place they could have persistent relationships with people and offers a VERY different social experience.
Not all children adapt well to being uprooted and moving constantly.
I tend to think children without siblings are worse off because they don't even have family that are consistently near their age that they can interact with, but that's just my theory.
What if your wife doesn't want to move? Its not always as simple when people are paired, especially these days when more women have their own careers.
Take your pick:
A) Live in a major dev hub, be so amazing that you never have to leave to find work Freelance and take offsite work
C) Apply to a nearby art outsourcing studio
D) Self start your own business
E) Find a different career
F) Find a different wife
My dad was in a military family, they moved constantly and constantly being the new kid who never got to really know anyone meant he never made any close friends and didn't really develop great social skills.
Of the people I know who moved a lot but actually grew up with internet access and mass communication, lots ended up as reclusive shut-ins with serious social anxiety (a crippling problem in a couple cases) because the internet was the only place they could have persistent relationships with people and offers a VERY different social experience.
Not all children adapt well to being uprooted and moving constantly.
I tend to think children without siblings are worse off because they don't even have family that are consistently near their age that they can interact with, but that's just my theory.
Take your pick:
A) Live in a major dev hub, be so amazing that you never have to leave to find work Freelance and take offsite work
C) Apply to a nearby art outsourcing studio
D) Self start your own business
E) Find a different career
F) Find a different wife
Living in another country isn't like travelling. It's like travelling on steroids. The're so much more cool things you can experience but you're also exposed to all the crap that you usually don't see as a tourist (bureaucracy, language problems, new customs, lack of friends).
I wouldn't say it's for everyone, but our industry is one of the few where this lifestyle is possible. It's probably not an easy thing to do with a family. Some companies aren't too happy if you bring family (extra relocation cost, more difficult to do visa formalities). Also in many countries international schools or kindergardens are very expensive. And your spouse may need a job too or else she sits at home alone without friends slowly going crazy.
Other professions where people tend to move a lot internationally (diplomats, managers?) have it easier since they earn a lot more money.
It kinda depends...I mean, I worked in the games industry during the ps2, xbox, gamecube age. And during my 2.5 year stint at this one place, I realized I didn't like having management telling me "you have to work for the next two months, 10+ hour days and possible weekends" ie: crunch. I also realized that a lot of my friends that went on to other places would end up moving from place to place quite often due to shifting teams after projects were completed. I've been at a smaller "indie" studio doing smaller games for the past 6-7 years and I love it. I work a regular hour day. I never crunch. And because of this, i have tons of time to work on my own art and my other interests and life in general.
So...it depends on what you want. There are some different avenues out there for you to take. AND...it depends on what kind of person you are. So think about that.
Even working at a bigger places under corporate names and being recently layed off from Vigil, I go into work every day with a smile. I'm a workaholic, so the 'big studio'='big crunch' thing doesn't bother me, and there will always be more jobs, as long as you are talented.
Things I have going for me:
Both me and my wife love to move!
Neither of us want kids (anytime soon)
Neither of us have family obligations
My wife is a nurse, so when I don't have work, I have a sugar mama.
Honestly if any of these things weren't going for me, I probably have to hang up the wacom in a few years. You just have to choose what you are willing to sacrifice to work a job you love. There's always 2+ shit tons of other professions most game art peoples could work and still be happy (just not as happy) .
I didn't mean moving constantly (obviously not every year or two). A few times within a country and maybe a new country at some point will not be the culprit of harming a child that's growing up. Having to make new friends is an important life skill that I believe is important for a child to learn. As an adult it's something they will have to do a few times over if they chase a career themselves. Some people are suited to stay in one place their whole life, but I think it's naive to assume that's what's best for your child. Most people that have travelled and lived in a different county have benefited greatly from it and learnt a lot.
Not to mention moving around is really tough for kids. No matter how much you think it's a great child's life experience, it's a lot harder on kids than you may think. Children like stability, they don't want to have to say farewell to their friends ever year or two.
It's great if this works out for you, but like CounterSeal said, it's definitely not a practical way of life for the vast majority of us.
EXACTLY!!! I have had to put my son (whos just about to turn 7 in a few weeks) into way too many schools already because of the last few years and the ups and downs.
Preschool (Madison, WI and Libertyville, IA)
Kindergarten (Libertyville, IA and Skowhegan, ME)
First Grade (North Chicago, IL and Green Bay, WI)
That is 6 schools in 3 years. It kills me every time I have to move my family and it sucks and I keep hoping to land that 1 gig where we can finally settle down and exhale and really unpack all our stuff.
Today I think I finally got that but I am having my wife and 2 kids stay behind so he can finish out the school year without having to move again this year. He is a great kid but I know the moving hurts him because it shows.
Yes it's a new adventure and my kids and family have learned to adapt but I wouldn't want this on anyone. It is one of the main reasons I got out of the military (besides I wanted to make games.)
Do you say the game industry as opposed to the the film industry which is possibly different in this regard or are you really just saying any kind of modeling/texturing/lighting etc job that is in the entertainment industry? Just wondering, have nothing to contribute otherwise but I enjoyed reading peoples thoughts.. Its really cool to see you guys that have worked for 10+ years or 15+ years talking about still finding it difficult to grasp how awesome it is that you are making games.
I didn't mean moving constantly (obviously not every year or two). A few times within a country and maybe a new country at some point will not be the culprit of harming a child that's growing up. Having to make new friends is an important life skill that I believe is important for a child to learn. As an adult it's something they will have to do a few times over if they chase a career themselves. Some people are suited to stay in one place their whole life, but I think it's naive to assume that's what's best for your child. Most people that have travelled and lived in a different county have benefited greatly from it and learnt a lot.
There's no shortage of published studies that indicate children that move a lot are more likely to have social problems, feel isolated, and develop depression with lasting problems into adulthood. Teenagers who move often also have higher suicide rates.
Not saying moving frequently is going to fuck a kids life over but exaggerating the potential positives and dismissing the drawbacks as "teaching important life lessons" just looks like rationalization.
In my opinion its not worth.
Getting layed-off is a regular danger after projects complete. There is no game-studio around every corner so you would have to move which may be "cool" and "adventureous" if you are young. But after having a wife which maybe even has a regular job and kids its getting harder and eating your money everytime you move to another city too.
Payment is not the best compared to the amount of work you do. Not everyone can be a producer or Lead-Designer as sad as it sounds. You will be not on top of the chain most likely.
This whole game-dev working is to mystified in my opinion. Sure you do great stuff and work on projects maybe millions of people will play but at the end of the day it's hard work, sometimes repeating monkey-work for a long time or overtime for weeks.
Is it really the job someone can do until he retires? Will he still get a job as a artist in a crew with 45+ years of age after layed off somewhere. Its like working as a whore. You can't do the job forever!
I got offers from around 5-7 studios the last years some of them doing AAA stuff but I ever have the feeling to made my right decision better doing freelance, founding my own company, switching (adding) to arch-viz where you can make good money with a strong client portfolio and partnerships. I even have a small side-job in the old job I studied because it sucks from a social point of view doing work alone in a small studio and it keeps me fresh.
So if you work in game-dev then you have to think about getting another background you could work after your game-dev career except a burger-flipper or so. Maybe doing studies beside work or so.
There's no shortage of published studies that indicate children that move a lot are more likely to have social problems, feel isolated, and develop depression with lasting problems into adulthood. Teenagers who move often also have higher suicide rates.
Not saying moving frequently is going to fuck a kids life over but exaggerating the potential positives and dismissing the drawbacks as "teaching important life lessons" just looks like rationalization.
Fair enough. I don't want to get into an argument as there is positive and negatives of both sides. I was only trying to express my personal view and experiences. I will definitely not be held back by fear that my child won't cope with a move. But the key factor is communicating with your child and paying close attention to how it is coping with moving to a new place. If they are unhappy it's important to explore why. It could well be because of the stress of a new place and having to make new friends or it could be something less obvious.
In my circumstance I would not be happy bringing up my kid in London simply for the stability of being in one place. I would take up a job in Vancouver or Montreal in a heartbeat as the quality of life for our family would be greatly improved. These factors are unique to my circumstance and as I said in my first post: each to their own.
It's not that I don't agree with all the "follow your bliss... or not" guys like Harzardous, just for the kind of guys you very well talk about and very well might think are the guys who start these threads you dispense a lot of depressing thought. Not that it's invalid, it is valid, it's life; but damn it feels like empty advice to say, "hey if you doubting yourself then give up on your dreams kiddo cause life don't have room for failures." (ok I really exaggerated that)
But my point is that these dumb wannabes who only 'kinda want it' are still likely 100% sincere. Their misguided dreams of working in games is likely their only ones. The crushing realization that they're either A) not good enough (which is the case for everybody but they'll still get sad over it) and not as committed as they think; is quite horrifying.
I believe the rhetoric since many of my mentors have said the same thing but once again there is no helping other hand. I was one of the ones to pass a Qantm like class but that was well before there was anybody who would tell you only 10 our of 10 would make that. But then I'm well within the bounds of the 10 that didn't make it into the industry, and I also don't display a great aptitude with following my dreams. SO... am I fail? No better than a wannabe? I got no backup plan I have nothing else in my headbox, so what do I do?
Since I know that many of the wise types here will just say, "I can't tell you what to do. Only you can tell yourself that." I'll just choose to keep pointlessly believing I'll one day make it. Which is my long way round of getting my point of advice out:
If you can just swallow the advice of quitting while your good at being doubtful, due to the fact that you only 'kinda want it' or that you have a reasonable backup plan, but if there's nothing but a empty soulless existence in one hand and your game dreams in the other then just keep working on it.
As an Australian game dev student, Snaacum, you've got the toughest battle of any of these guys ahead of you no matter how good your art might be. Most of our industry is gone, and the unemployment lines are choked with very experienced game developers all fighting for the rare game jobs that make an appearance. On top of that there are a large number of tertiary institutions churning out game dev students every semester.
You're going to have to work harder perhaps than even some of these bitter veterans have been called to do and come out of it with portfolio better than the guys who've been knocking out games for years. Even then you're going to have a tough time getting work and when you do it's not likely to be on anything particularly inspiring. You might like to add some ponies to your portfolio.
If you can keep your passion and enthusiasm through all that then, well you have my respect. In all honesty though as someone who's done the Aus game dev thing, I think at this point, in the country the answer to Nick2730's question is "Not really, no".
Don't get me wrong, there are good people out there doing good work. If you do find yourself on a team of like minded developers and you're not run by a criminal or under the boot of a psychotic publisher, there's plenty of fun to be had, even if you're working on Pony Friends 3. I just think that you really need to understand what you're getting yourself into to make a fair assessment of your future.
As an Australian game dev student, Snaacum, you've got the toughest battle of any of these guys ahead of you no matter how good your art might be. Most of our industry is gone, and the unemployment lines are choked with very experienced game developers all fighting for the rare game jobs that make an appearance. On top of that there are a large number of tertiary institutions churning out game dev students every semester.
You're going to have to work harder perhaps than even some of these bitter veterans have been called to do and come out of it with portfolio better than the guys who've been knocking out games for years. Even then you're going to have a tough time getting work and when you do it's not likely to be on anything particularly inspiring. You might like to add some ponies to your portfolio.
If you can keep your passion and enthusiasm through all that then, well you have my respect. In all honesty though as someone who's done the Aus game dev thing, I think at this point, in the country the answer to Nick2730's question is "Not really, no".
Don't get me wrong, there are good people out there doing good work. If you do find yourself on a team of like minded developers and you're not run by a criminal or under the boot of a psychotic publisher, there's plenty of fun to be had, even if you're working on Pony Friends 3. I just think that you really need to understand what you're getting yourself into to make a fair assessment of your future.
It's rough out there.
Thanks man. In the end though I was more referring to the type of advice going around, and it's good advice - that's why I wasn't trying to mean any disrespect for Hazardous, in terms of Australia and the hard slog in or out of it he has the goods and knowledge. Simply I was trying to say that some of these guys who come here asking these questions may not be able to take the cold hard truth because (like me) they got nothing else to fall back on. There's nothing to be ashamed of doing a shitkicking job like Maccas or the supermarket - jobs a job. But as many people have stated here it's just gunna eat you up if you've been living on a dream, and that's what a lot of us see in our future when we're told "if you have to ask..."
Sorry to do this OP but hes brought it out of me, blame snacuum!
Snacuum: I completely understand what youre saying. Trust me. I came this *makes really small shape with fingers* close to throwing it all in after about 3 years of 'trying' to be a character artist. I actually had wanted to be a baker as well, so I got a bakers apprenticeship all lined up because after all that time I just wasnt good enough of an artist to be in the games industry in Australia or anywhere else for that matter.
However, looking back on those 3 years, I didnt actually try very hard at all. For lack of a better expression, I wasted a lot of fucking time. But I had to be honest with myself and look back to identify that. Heres what I ACTUALLY found I spent most of that 3 years doing:
Talking about being a better artist with friends.
Spending hours looking over awesome artwork for 'inspiration'
Spending hours reading forums.
Spending hours surfing the net.
Hanging out with friends.
Spending hours playing Games.
Having a life.
After 3 years I had built 9 characters. Really ??????
Fuck man, I lived at home with parents, had no bills to pay, no responsibilities and all I could muster was 3 half assed characters per year ?!?!!?!? I'm utterly ashamed to really even call that 'trying' especially because it was supposed to be something ' I REALLY WANTED TO DO' .....what a joke. I should have had at LEAST 6 characters per year if I was coasting!!
But screw coasting along, I want to be a character artist, I cant coast, I want to be awesome!!!
If I *REALLY* wanted this more than anyone else, I needed to identify what method would help me to learn the fastest. Once discovered, I needed to knuckle down and get into a process of iteration and refinement - it was that simple.
I'd have to lock myself away from absolutely everything and simply make character art. Let it absolutely consume me.
Instead of the bakers apprenticeship, thats what I did.
I listened to Bobby Chiu all day long over and over, whatever I needed to do to keep me producing. More focus on production, less focus on what the world thinks of my progression. I still have to this day, probably 5 times the amount of finished character work than I've posted online, sitting on my HDD never uploaded anywhere and literally dozens and dozens of unfinished pieces / experiments, dabbles into things.
At that time, I spent 12 - 14 hours a day just producing.
I unplugged my internet to reduce the distractions.
I had to win.
TBH when you do this, and take on this kind of challenge with art - you cant fail. When you dedicate yourself so wholly to producing artwork for long enough, you will become great - baring tragedy you cannot fail, its IMPOSSIBLE. In fact I challenge anyone to try it, and fail. You will fail at failing, I guess thats a fail, but the reality is youll actually win!!
To some degree I still maintain this ethic, when I've worked fulltime, I also freelance. When I'm not freelancing I'm working on my own projects, or doing the odd character for competition. Im always producing or working on something, even if its experimenting with new hair, new ways to do eyes, anatomy sculpts, painting / 2d etc. etc.
The reason I do this? Because Im not the fastest learner in the world, I need repetition to really nail something and Im always seeing younger artists, who are much better than I am, and Im not about to get comfy at any company and let my skills go to the weeds so I can live in a delusional world where I get into a great amount of debt and hope that said company will help me out of it so I never have to prove myself again. This just doesnt fly for me, my skill is my power, when I relinquish it, I have nothing.
So, whilst this may seem extreme to some readers, I am by no means a hard worker lol. I have lived and worked with people who are MUCH more driven than I am, and it has really humbled me and put into perspective what I thought was dedication and hard work - because I was quite proud of my dedication and hard work until I met some people that just totally humbled me.
So, along with my own 3 year 'try' and living and working with some real driven people, this has made me acutely aware of 'real effort' when someone says they are 'trying' when tbh all they have is a couple models per year, and theres no real progression in their work at all, even after years of trying ( like my early self). The same goes for the 10 - 12 year veteran whose folio is so outdated due to getting comfortable in some studio and never bothering to polish their skills outside of work.
Im not sure if those people realize how obvious that actually looks to an artist that has put in the effort. It's literally like your holding a massive ' Im a lazy fucker ' neon sign.
Having said all this terrible, angry-response-to-this-post inducing stuff (lol), I know not everyones situation is the same. Maybe youve got family, kids, poor health, other dramas and troubles or things that take time away from producing art. Maybe you can only dedicate 2 hours per day to actually making art, and therefore it does actually take you a year to make 3 characters.
If thats you, and your currently trying to get good enough to get in you better make damn well certain that you put in an honest 2 hours if you even HOPE to compete with the next generation of young artists from China, Korea, India, Russia and the rest of the world who are actually working harder than you and me will ever work put together, to get that same job.
I do believe that most people are intelligent enough to realize that no one can really fall into greatness or mastery of something. You cant become Roger Federer by just playing tennis every now and then or become Michelangelo by chiseling a bit of rock a couple times a year.
So 2 choices/paths:
1) Just do it, over and over and over again until you make it.
2) Be smart enough to realize that your individual circumstances dont allow you to become great or even passable quality to do what you want to do, so you can refocus on something else that you like and DOES work with your lifestyle.
I go back to my comment my lecturer made to all of us fresh new hopefuls that practically none of us would get a job in games - and I dont know if it was fear, shock, disbelief or a combination of all of these things really that shut us all up, but ultimately after all things were done, time passed, and he was right.
I believe its important to tell the truth, especially to students or people considering there next step.
I encourage anyone to wants anything, to decide whether they really want it, and if so, prove to yourself that you do. That will separate you from the people who only kind of want it and the people who due to their circumstances, just cant and will never have it.
Sorry for such a long and personal post I have characters to build now My forum time quota for today is used up lol!
The same goes for the 10 - 12 year veteran whose folio is so outdated due to getting comfortable in some studio and never bothering to polish their skills outside of work.
Im not sure if those people realize how obvious that actually looks to an artist that has put in the effort. It's literally like your holding a massive ' Im a lazy fucker ' neon sign.
I just wanted to re-iterate this because I've personally seen this many times when viewing portfolios sent in when applying for a position. Resume states 10 years work experience... but the art in the folio is worse than some of the folio's of students and JR artists.
I'm with Jessy on the moving the family around every couple years bit. My wife and kids are staying up in Northern Japan while I work down in Osaka. It sucks to move kids around so much like that. My wife and kids won't be coming down for another 3 years if I am at UbiSoft that long. It sucks to be away for so long, but the stability and friends will be best for them.
Even though this thread lacks kittens, it is filled with good info. Game industry is worth it if you really want it.
To go on what Hazardous said, which I can relate to.... If you tell yourself you work hard. Put it to the test.... Use this program (manic time) to test what programs you use. I installed it cause I was curious, and I was spending barely any time at all in Maya. It just tells you which programs you have open, and how much time each one is active. You can set a bunch of programs to be part of the good programs, so photoshop and max/maya and what not. so its easy to read if you`re being good.
It's not really as simple as that... surely you could say that if you love it, you do it as a hobby, and work a stable job in another industry? I also agree with the people that say moving around as much as is required would be very unfair on kids; I don't see the 'adventure' part at all. It would be really unfair to separate them from friends and having a stable environment. Happened to me and it sucked. It's an adventure for the adults that are moving to an awesome new job, not the kids.
To go on what Hazardous said, which I can relate to.... If you tell yourself you work hard. Put it to the test.... Use this program (manic time) to test what programs you use. I installed it cause I was curious, and I was spending barely any time at all in Maya. It just tells you which programs you have open, and how much time each one is active. You can set a bunch of programs to be part of the good programs, so photoshop and max/maya and what not. so its easy to read if you`re being good.
It definitely made me smarten up.
Seconded. I use manic time and its great. truly ruthless at telling how much time you actually spend working. Really gets you're shit together!
To go on what Hazardous said, which I can relate to.... If you tell yourself you work hard. Put it to the test.... Use this program (manic time) to test what programs you use. I installed it cause I was curious, and I was spending barely any time at all in Maya. It just tells you which programs you have open, and how much time each one is active. You can set a bunch of programs to be part of the good programs, so photoshop and max/maya and what not. so its easy to read if you`re being good.
It definitely made me smarten up.
Yep, time management is normally the toughest thing people have to master. After you mange to get yourself actually working, then you need to make sure you're working efficiently. Recording yourself and watching it can really help you improve your workflow.
"I spend a lot of time orbiting around an object after small changes..."
"I should paint more in photoshop before running back to max to check"
"Why did I keep mousing over that side of the screen to hit that button, I can shortcut that"
"I kept pulling up that menu that is buried in sub-menus, I use it a lot but I leave it up and end up moving around. I need a button to call it up quicker."
"I never use those buttons or the junk in the bottom tray, I'm getting rid of it"
"I scroll the command panel up and down, maybe I should expand it"
depends on were you live, I work about walking distance from Retro and Bioware Austin and a short drive from plenty of other studios. That's probably why game dev home ownership is so high in Austin.
Talking about being a better artist with friends.
Spending hours looking over awesome artwork for 'inspiration'
Spending hours reading forums.
Spending hours surfing the net.
Hanging out with friends.
Spending hours playing Games.
Having a life.
Awesome post Hazardous, I think a lot of people can relate to that, especially the part about "trying".
I feel exactly the same way. After Christmas this year, I decided I would really dedicate myself to trying to get an art job. Once I started cutting out all the distractions, I realized just how much time I'd been wasting the previous two years. I'm still not in an art job, but in 4 months I've produced more art than I had in the previous 3 years combined. It's very empowering once you find the motivation and learn to discipline yourself. Anyway, thank you so much for that post.
And to the OP, you're lucky to have gotten such awesome advice and I would really think hard on it. I have to say Gav's post also would be my advice. To really do this you are absolutely going to have to dedicate serious time. It will probably strain your relationship with your wife at some point or another. Figure out how bad you want it, what sacrifices you would be willing to make. Good luck
Great post Hazardous and thread overall. The main thing that you hit on that resonates with me is the putting the time in early on. People think cause they can make a cube or UV map that cube that it's enough. It's simply not. You need to put in the time. I always point people to read Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers. It gives a lot of examples of people succeeding and one of them is The Beatles. Specifically how they played in Hamburg Germany over the course of 3 years so much that they were a polished, complete band when they came back. It's the 10,000 hours rule.
Also the lazy fucker at a company I can relate to. That was me. I had a relatively stable gig (pre-2008 economic crash) and there were always other gigs available. Cut to a few years later and it was a struggle to find work. Mainly cause I spent outside of work time having a life, taking trips, going out, etc. Even when you get that job keep making stuff! It's very important to not get rusty or complacent. You're only as good as your last project is a good motto to hold onto.
If I was a baker, accountant, etc I would be drawing, painting, and modding UT2K7 still on the weekends. At the end of the day painting, modeling, sculpting, etc does not feel like a job to me. It's pure fun and I enjoy it. I have a good friend that had all that feel like a job. So he quit games and plays in a punk band. That's his version of working in this industry.
No one person can answer for you if this is worth it. It depends on you, your situation, etc. It's a personal decision. Just don't rage quit. Take some time and make sure you do or don't want to move forward. I know plenty of people with degrees in x that do y. That's life. You adapt and move on.
Great post Hazardous and thread overall. The main thing that you hit on that resonates with me is the putting the time in early on. People think cause they can make a cube or UV map that cube that it's enough. It's simply not.
The same goes for people who can use Zbrush and think it's enough to get a job.
This has been a great thread and was surprised how many replies were given considering the number of times the subject comes up but Hazardous has written the best response I've seen to the question to date.
Disconnecting this computer from the net now!
I've seen that top video before but I'll definitely check out the second.
Regardless, Hazardous is right, so now I feel like the bad guy...
I didn't want to incite anything, I'm just a stickler for devil's advocate style angle covering. I'm that kind of asshole who when you say, "This thing is designed terribly." I go, "Well how did that happen? Maybe it's designed that way on purpose." I realise now that it is probably pretty irritating.
So that shut me up in a ways.[edit: Really I was going to make this post more depressing than it deserves to be so instead I'll just shut up.]
Replies
This is especially put into perspective after several years of doing jobs you really don't care for.
Staying up until the wee hours of the morning working on my portfolio is just a fact of life now; I wouldn't have it any other way. Although I am always pretty tired at my 'regular' job.
This, +1
Wow, talk about being subjective.
Not everyone is in the same circumstances as you. I applaud the headstrong advice, but it is not a practical way of life for everyone.
It's great if this works out for you, but like CounterSeal said, it's definitely not a practical way of life for the vast majority of us.
you never hear someone saying "I'm so glad I never followed my passion" usually there's just a ton of regret.
Now the fact that you've only just begun messing with the Unreal engine which has been around for almost 10 years or so in some form, is this truly your passion?
My dad was in a military family, they moved constantly and constantly being the new kid who never got to really know anyone meant he never made any close friends and didn't really develop great social skills.
Of the people I know who moved a lot but actually grew up with internet access and mass communication, lots ended up as reclusive shut-ins with serious social anxiety (a crippling problem in a couple cases) because the internet was the only place they could have persistent relationships with people and offers a VERY different social experience.
Not all children adapt well to being uprooted and moving constantly.
I tend to think children without siblings are worse off because they don't even have family that are consistently near their age that they can interact with, but that's just my theory.
Take your pick:
A) Live in a major dev hub, be so amazing that you never have to leave to find work
C) Apply to a nearby art outsourcing studio
D) Self start your own business
E) Find a different career
F) Find a different wife
She's going to have to go :thumbup:
I wouldn't say it's for everyone, but our industry is one of the few where this lifestyle is possible. It's probably not an easy thing to do with a family. Some companies aren't too happy if you bring family (extra relocation cost, more difficult to do visa formalities). Also in many countries international schools or kindergardens are very expensive. And your spouse may need a job too or else she sits at home alone without friends slowly going crazy.
Other professions where people tend to move a lot internationally (diplomats, managers?) have it easier since they earn a lot more money.
So...it depends on what you want. There are some different avenues out there for you to take. AND...it depends on what kind of person you are. So think about that.
Even working at a bigger places under corporate names and being recently layed off from Vigil, I go into work every day with a smile. I'm a workaholic, so the 'big studio'='big crunch' thing doesn't bother me, and there will always be more jobs, as long as you are talented.
Things I have going for me:
Both me and my wife love to move!
Neither of us want kids (anytime soon)
Neither of us have family obligations
My wife is a nurse, so when I don't have work, I have a sugar mama.
Honestly if any of these things weren't going for me, I probably have to hang up the wacom in a few years. You just have to choose what you are willing to sacrifice to work a job you love. There's always 2+ shit tons of other professions most game art peoples could work and still be happy (just not as happy)
EXACTLY!!! I have had to put my son (whos just about to turn 7 in a few weeks) into way too many schools already because of the last few years and the ups and downs.
Preschool (Madison, WI and Libertyville, IA)
Kindergarten (Libertyville, IA and Skowhegan, ME)
First Grade (North Chicago, IL and Green Bay, WI)
That is 6 schools in 3 years. It kills me every time I have to move my family and it sucks and I keep hoping to land that 1 gig where we can finally settle down and exhale and really unpack all our stuff.
Today I think I finally got that but I am having my wife and 2 kids stay behind so he can finish out the school year without having to move again this year. He is a great kid but I know the moving hurts him because it shows.
Yes it's a new adventure and my kids and family have learned to adapt but I wouldn't want this on anyone. It is one of the main reasons I got out of the military (besides I wanted to make games.)
Not saying moving frequently is going to fuck a kids life over but exaggerating the potential positives and dismissing the drawbacks as "teaching important life lessons" just looks like rationalization.
Getting layed-off is a regular danger after projects complete. There is no game-studio around every corner so you would have to move which may be "cool" and "adventureous" if you are young. But after having a wife which maybe even has a regular job and kids its getting harder and eating your money everytime you move to another city too.
Payment is not the best compared to the amount of work you do. Not everyone can be a producer or Lead-Designer as sad as it sounds. You will be not on top of the chain most likely.
This whole game-dev working is to mystified in my opinion. Sure you do great stuff and work on projects maybe millions of people will play but at the end of the day it's hard work, sometimes repeating monkey-work for a long time or overtime for weeks.
Is it really the job someone can do until he retires? Will he still get a job as a artist in a crew with 45+ years of age after layed off somewhere. Its like working as a whore. You can't do the job forever!
I got offers from around 5-7 studios the last years some of them doing AAA stuff but I ever have the feeling to made my right decision better doing freelance, founding my own company, switching (adding) to arch-viz where you can make good money with a strong client portfolio and partnerships. I even have a small side-job in the old job I studied because it sucks from a social point of view doing work alone in a small studio and it keeps me fresh.
So if you work in game-dev then you have to think about getting another background you could work after your game-dev career except a burger-flipper or so. Maybe doing studies beside work or so.
Fair enough. I don't want to get into an argument as there is positive and negatives of both sides. I was only trying to express my personal view and experiences. I will definitely not be held back by fear that my child won't cope with a move. But the key factor is communicating with your child and paying close attention to how it is coping with moving to a new place. If they are unhappy it's important to explore why. It could well be because of the stress of a new place and having to make new friends or it could be something less obvious.
In my circumstance I would not be happy bringing up my kid in London simply for the stability of being in one place. I would take up a job in Vancouver or Montreal in a heartbeat as the quality of life for our family would be greatly improved. These factors are unique to my circumstance and as I said in my first post: each to their own.
But my point is that these dumb wannabes who only 'kinda want it' are still likely 100% sincere. Their misguided dreams of working in games is likely their only ones. The crushing realization that they're either A) not good enough (which is the case for everybody but they'll still get sad over it) and
I believe the rhetoric since many of my mentors have said the same thing but once again there is no helping other hand. I was one of the ones to pass a Qantm like class but that was well before there was anybody who would tell you only 10 our of 10 would make that. But then I'm well within the bounds of the 10 that didn't make it into the industry, and I also don't display a great aptitude with following my dreams. SO... am I fail? No better than a wannabe? I got no backup plan I have nothing else in my headbox, so what do I do?
Since I know that many of the wise types here will just say, "I can't tell you what to do. Only you can tell yourself that." I'll just choose to keep pointlessly believing I'll one day make it. Which is my long way round of getting my point of advice out:
If you can just swallow the advice of quitting while your good at being doubtful, due to the fact that you only 'kinda want it' or that you have a reasonable backup plan, but if there's nothing but a empty soulless existence in one hand and your game dreams in the other then just keep working on it.
You're going to have to work harder perhaps than even some of these bitter veterans have been called to do and come out of it with portfolio better than the guys who've been knocking out games for years. Even then you're going to have a tough time getting work and when you do it's not likely to be on anything particularly inspiring. You might like to add some ponies to your portfolio.
If you can keep your passion and enthusiasm through all that then, well you have my respect. In all honesty though as someone who's done the Aus game dev thing, I think at this point, in the country the answer to Nick2730's question is "Not really, no".
Don't get me wrong, there are good people out there doing good work. If you do find yourself on a team of like minded developers and you're not run by a criminal or under the boot of a psychotic publisher, there's plenty of fun to be had, even if you're working on Pony Friends 3. I just think that you really need to understand what you're getting yourself into to make a fair assessment of your future.
It's rough out there.
Thanks man. In the end though I was more referring to the type of advice going around, and it's good advice - that's why I wasn't trying to mean any disrespect for Hazardous, in terms of Australia and the hard slog in or out of it he has the goods and knowledge. Simply I was trying to say that some of these guys who come here asking these questions may not be able to take the cold hard truth because (like me) they got nothing else to fall back on. There's nothing to be ashamed of doing a shitkicking job like Maccas or the supermarket - jobs a job. But as many people have stated here it's just gunna eat you up if you've been living on a dream, and that's what a lot of us see in our future when we're told "if you have to ask..."
Snacuum: I completely understand what youre saying. Trust me. I came this *makes really small shape with fingers* close to throwing it all in after about 3 years of 'trying' to be a character artist. I actually had wanted to be a baker as well, so I got a bakers apprenticeship all lined up because after all that time I just wasnt good enough of an artist to be in the games industry in Australia or anywhere else for that matter.
However, looking back on those 3 years, I didnt actually try very hard at all. For lack of a better expression, I wasted a lot of fucking time. But I had to be honest with myself and look back to identify that. Heres what I ACTUALLY found I spent most of that 3 years doing:
Talking about being a better artist with friends.
Spending hours looking over awesome artwork for 'inspiration'
Spending hours reading forums.
Spending hours surfing the net.
Hanging out with friends.
Spending hours playing Games.
Having a life.
After 3 years I had built 9 characters. Really ??????
Fuck man, I lived at home with parents, had no bills to pay, no responsibilities and all I could muster was 3 half assed characters per year ?!?!!?!? I'm utterly ashamed to really even call that 'trying' especially because it was supposed to be something ' I REALLY WANTED TO DO' .....what a joke. I should have had at LEAST 6 characters per year if I was coasting!!
But screw coasting along, I want to be a character artist, I cant coast, I want to be awesome!!!
If I *REALLY* wanted this more than anyone else, I needed to identify what method would help me to learn the fastest. Once discovered, I needed to knuckle down and get into a process of iteration and refinement - it was that simple.
I'd have to lock myself away from absolutely everything and simply make character art. Let it absolutely consume me.
Instead of the bakers apprenticeship, thats what I did.
I listened to Bobby Chiu all day long over and over, whatever I needed to do to keep me producing. More focus on production, less focus on what the world thinks of my progression. I still have to this day, probably 5 times the amount of finished character work than I've posted online, sitting on my HDD never uploaded anywhere and literally dozens and dozens of unfinished pieces / experiments, dabbles into things.
At that time, I spent 12 - 14 hours a day just producing.
I unplugged my internet to reduce the distractions.
I had to win.
TBH when you do this, and take on this kind of challenge with art - you cant fail. When you dedicate yourself so wholly to producing artwork for long enough, you will become great - baring tragedy you cannot fail, its IMPOSSIBLE. In fact I challenge anyone to try it, and fail. You will fail at failing, I guess thats a fail, but the reality is youll actually win!!
To some degree I still maintain this ethic, when I've worked fulltime, I also freelance. When I'm not freelancing I'm working on my own projects, or doing the odd character for competition. Im always producing or working on something, even if its experimenting with new hair, new ways to do eyes, anatomy sculpts, painting / 2d etc. etc.
The reason I do this? Because Im not the fastest learner in the world, I need repetition to really nail something and Im always seeing younger artists, who are much better than I am, and Im not about to get comfy at any company and let my skills go to the weeds so I can live in a delusional world where I get into a great amount of debt and hope that said company will help me out of it so I never have to prove myself again. This just doesnt fly for me, my skill is my power, when I relinquish it, I have nothing.
So, whilst this may seem extreme to some readers, I am by no means a hard worker lol. I have lived and worked with people who are MUCH more driven than I am, and it has really humbled me and put into perspective what I thought was dedication and hard work - because I was quite proud of my dedication and hard work until I met some people that just totally humbled me.
So, along with my own 3 year 'try' and living and working with some real driven people, this has made me acutely aware of 'real effort' when someone says they are 'trying' when tbh all they have is a couple models per year, and theres no real progression in their work at all, even after years of trying ( like my early self). The same goes for the 10 - 12 year veteran whose folio is so outdated due to getting comfortable in some studio and never bothering to polish their skills outside of work.
Im not sure if those people realize how obvious that actually looks to an artist that has put in the effort. It's literally like your holding a massive ' Im a lazy fucker ' neon sign.
Having said all this terrible, angry-response-to-this-post inducing stuff (lol), I know not everyones situation is the same. Maybe youve got family, kids, poor health, other dramas and troubles or things that take time away from producing art. Maybe you can only dedicate 2 hours per day to actually making art, and therefore it does actually take you a year to make 3 characters.
If thats you, and your currently trying to get good enough to get in you better make damn well certain that you put in an honest 2 hours if you even HOPE to compete with the next generation of young artists from China, Korea, India, Russia and the rest of the world who are actually working harder than you and me will ever work put together, to get that same job.
I do believe that most people are intelligent enough to realize that no one can really fall into greatness or mastery of something. You cant become Roger Federer by just playing tennis every now and then or become Michelangelo by chiseling a bit of rock a couple times a year.
So 2 choices/paths:
1) Just do it, over and over and over again until you make it.
2) Be smart enough to realize that your individual circumstances dont allow you to become great or even passable quality to do what you want to do, so you can refocus on something else that you like and DOES work with your lifestyle.
I go back to my comment my lecturer made to all of us fresh new hopefuls that practically none of us would get a job in games - and I dont know if it was fear, shock, disbelief or a combination of all of these things really that shut us all up, but ultimately after all things were done, time passed, and he was right.
I believe its important to tell the truth, especially to students or people considering there next step.
I encourage anyone to wants anything, to decide whether they really want it, and if so, prove to yourself that you do. That will separate you from the people who only kind of want it and the people who due to their circumstances, just cant and will never have it.
Sorry for such a long and personal post I have characters to build now My forum time quota for today is used up lol!
I just wanted to re-iterate this because I've personally seen this many times when viewing portfolios sent in when applying for a position. Resume states 10 years work experience... but the art in the folio is worse than some of the folio's of students and JR artists.
Even though this thread lacks kittens, it is filled with good info. Game industry is worth it if you really want it.
It definitely made me smarten up.
It's not really as simple as that... surely you could say that if you love it, you do it as a hobby, and work a stable job in another industry? I also agree with the people that say moving around as much as is required would be very unfair on kids; I don't see the 'adventure' part at all. It would be really unfair to separate them from friends and having a stable environment. Happened to me and it sucked. It's an adventure for the adults that are moving to an awesome new job, not the kids.
Seconded. I use manic time and its great. truly ruthless at telling how much time you actually spend working. Really gets you're shit together!
"I spend a lot of time orbiting around an object after small changes..."
"I should paint more in photoshop before running back to max to check"
"Why did I keep mousing over that side of the screen to hit that button, I can shortcut that"
"I kept pulling up that menu that is buried in sub-menus, I use it a lot but I leave it up and end up moving around. I need a button to call it up quicker."
"I never use those buttons or the junk in the bottom tray, I'm getting rid of it"
"I scroll the command panel up and down, maybe I should expand it"
depends on were you live, I work about walking distance from Retro and Bioware Austin and a short drive from plenty of other studios. That's probably why game dev home ownership is so high in Austin.
Woah, eyeopener. I gotta go work.
This this and more this. Fuck.
I feel exactly the same way. After Christmas this year, I decided I would really dedicate myself to trying to get an art job. Once I started cutting out all the distractions, I realized just how much time I'd been wasting the previous two years. I'm still not in an art job, but in 4 months I've produced more art than I had in the previous 3 years combined. It's very empowering once you find the motivation and learn to discipline yourself. Anyway, thank you so much for that post.
And to the OP, you're lucky to have gotten such awesome advice and I would really think hard on it. I have to say Gav's post also would be my advice. To really do this you are absolutely going to have to dedicate serious time. It will probably strain your relationship with your wife at some point or another. Figure out how bad you want it, what sacrifices you would be willing to make. Good luck
Also the lazy fucker at a company I can relate to. That was me. I had a relatively stable gig (pre-2008 economic crash) and there were always other gigs available. Cut to a few years later and it was a struggle to find work. Mainly cause I spent outside of work time having a life, taking trips, going out, etc. Even when you get that job keep making stuff! It's very important to not get rusty or complacent. You're only as good as your last project is a good motto to hold onto.
If I was a baker, accountant, etc I would be drawing, painting, and modding UT2K7 still on the weekends. At the end of the day painting, modeling, sculpting, etc does not feel like a job to me. It's pure fun and I enjoy it. I have a good friend that had all that feel like a job. So he quit games and plays in a punk band. That's his version of working in this industry.
No one person can answer for you if this is worth it. It depends on you, your situation, etc. It's a personal decision. Just don't rage quit. Take some time and make sure you do or don't want to move forward. I know plenty of people with degrees in x that do y. That's life. You adapt and move on.
Outliers: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Outliers-Story-Success-Malcolm-Gladwell/dp/0316017922"]Amazon.com: Outliers: The Story of Success (9780316017923): Malcolm Gladwell: Books[/ame]
Beatles in Hamburg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beatles_in_Hamburg
The same goes for people who can use Zbrush and think it's enough to get a job.
Disconnecting this computer from the net now!
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Really great to listen to, especially if you need a push or are going through tough times. Thanks for pointing them out.
Regardless, Hazardous is right, so now I feel like the bad guy...
I didn't want to incite anything, I'm just a stickler for devil's advocate style angle covering. I'm that kind of asshole who when you say, "This thing is designed terribly." I go, "Well how did that happen? Maybe it's designed that way on purpose." I realise now that it is probably pretty irritating.
So that shut me up in a ways.[edit: Really I was going to make this post more depressing than it deserves to be so instead I'll just shut up.]