Great post Hazardous! If you're skilled enough you'll land a job, then it's just about trying become even more skilled so companies wants you specifically for their companies. It's up to you in the end though if you want to go over the line and spend all your spare time doing art or actually do other stuff that makes you happy as well.
Lots of us end up workaholics with this frame of mind, mainly because there are always new things to learn and the industry is progressing so quickly that you need to be up to par all the time. Some give up and end up just being veterans just learning the bare minimum of what they need to know to get by.
That's what's really scary about new graduates churning out awesome in a rapid pace. =P even scarier if you're a lazy comfortable veteran and a production artist.
But yeah, always work hard and stay true to your promises to yourself, it'll help you with the discipline needed for this industry.
Wow, I came into this thread pretty late. After reading everything, Hazardous pretty much nailed it in the head. So much so that I'm suspecting that he may have planted hidden cameras in my apt or something because that is the same methodology I'm following(nervously looking around for hidden cameras).
Seeing as OP is a recent graduate, I myself graduated 2 years ago; fast forward to now and of my class...I'm probably the only one that obtained the job title 'character artist' just like I wanted and for damn sure it wasn't because I am "talented", it was because I *REALLY* wanted it. After I graduated, most of the people I knew went back to their hometowns to relax a little bit before going job hunting.....I didn't, because I was afraid of the comfort. Instead, I packed the cloths I had and immediately moved to Los Angeles. Everybody called me crazy because I had no plan at all, what I did have was this dream world of the industry and I needed to see it for myself.
I spent a year and a half in LA before moving back to FL. I learned many things during that time, but one thing still sticks to me the most about what I've experienced and will probably always stick with me. I was royally pissed off by the amount of people I saw with "talent" just coasting along and not thinking much of the opportunities they got while I would die to have the crumbs.
So as Hazardous has said very well, that is exactly what I did. Creating characters and learning was the only thing I did all day..aside from bathroom breaks and eating. Every two weeks, I got on gamedevmap.com and applied to every single studio(US,Canada, random countries in Europe) that had an email link for me to send, even if I didn't know the language f**k it, I'll pick up rosetta stone if I get hired. Now I'm at the start of my career with the type of job I've dreamed of and I am still spending nearly 24/7 because there will always be someone better and I don't want to "settle" or "coast".
So yes, this industry does have its flaws and may be volatile in a sense, but if you really WANT it and DEDICATE so much to it, the volatile part of the business wont get to you or get you down.
Just wanted to share my personal experience and say thank you to Hazardous from the bottom of my heart for putting it so well.
Also, I hope that I am not the only weirdo that feels guilty about sleeping, lol
The games industry is bigger than just 500 people who might get laid off at EA. But as harsh as this sounds, other industries get hit by layoffs too. There's no industry with just "good news". If those are the stories that make you not work in one field or the other, you'll soon find yourself without any fields where you can comfortably work in.
I am a bit late on this, i know, but I just wanted to drop in and add to Kwramm's statement: I agree 100%.
OP! The links above are examples of massive layoffs in other industries.
All my friends that are in different industries have good things to say about the industry they are in and of course bad, sometimes even VERY bad. There is no perfect industry, or perfect company. Yes, there are companies that try hard to create a good working environment for it's employees, which is great and those are the companies that I would try to get into eventually, but nothing will ever be rainbows, roses and unicorns.
I am just in the beginning of my carreer so I can't speak with years of experience on my back, like many other guys here. But I can agree with them: If you like making games, it is definitely worth it. Where I work, we don't make glorious blockbuster games, but i'm still happy if I get to animate a whole teaser/trailer, or a batch of in-game animations and finish it in the given timeframe.
Like in other peoples case, from my class at college (about 20 something students), only 3-4 people got a job. Some people didn't work on their portfolio at all, some spent way too little time on it. So with that in mind, an example:
I read a thread once (about a year and a half ago, i was still in college) here on PC, where the OP of that thread had said that he didn't get a job and didn't know why, so people here started giving him advice. Advice like "move to a company hub" or "improve your folio". The OP didn't think that it was his portfolio's fault. Until that point he hadn't showed his portfolio, mind you. So people were assuming he was at least above average. When he finally showed his portfolio, people raised their eyebrows. Not because all his art was bad, some pieces where actually really good. But! His website was ugly and honestly very weird to navigate (hidden buttons etc.), his cv had spelling errors all over the place and some pieces of his weren't up to par.
So one guy posted something that is very obvious, but still very true that changed my perspective:
"If companies won't hire you, there is always a reason for it."
What I'm trying to say is that I understood that if companies won't hire me over an X amount of time, it's very possible that my work is just not good enough, or presented in a bad light, or I have too generic art, or characters, environments, animations and rigs in my demoreel, confusing everyone in regards of what I really want to do or, really, all of these things together. Which means that in that case, one must sit down and improve their portfolio and try again.
So pretty much I was shown, that the only 'sure' way to make it is doing what Hazardous, spiderDude and all the others did. Which is constantly practicing and improving your work.
tl;dr
If you enjoy modelling, or animating, or whatever you do and making games, then it's worth it. The beginning is always hard, no matter what you do.
ps: thank you guys for posting, it's always great to read such golden information, personal stories and/or advice.
What the games industry has given me...is a mindset of "it is what you make of it".
I got my start as a texture artist intern, wishing to be a concept artist. I had to fight tooth and nail to earn it, each step of the way. So far...13 years, contributions to around 300 titles, ranging from concept art, to character art to art direction to painting dirt, to brand development, vision, gui, biz dev, consulting, strategy etc..etc...
Talks at TEDx, GDC, GCDC, DICE, DICE ASIA, ANIMFX NZ, xmedialab, kr8v Malaysia, and many others. In that time I visited 25 or so countries, and have lived around the US and Asia. Credits include God of War 3, Diablo 3, Bioshock 2, Killzone 2, and even garbage titles no one played.
I worked inside the pubs, with small developers, and eventually built multiple companies. I have met my best friends, lost close friends, found love, learned things I never knew about, and experienced things I didn't think I'd get to, coming from a very small town and dirt poor background. I have been able to see the world, meet brilliant minds, and follow my passions and my heart. I have gone on to teach others, run my web portal, and continue to chase dreams.
I have had hostile takeover attempts of my studios from four different companies including two of the largest publishers, have been betrayed, screwed over and all sorts of headaches were found. It is not all sweets and sugar. Everything worth doing comes with challenges that one does not expect, and failures one does not wish for. Such is life.
what I have found is that there is no shortage of need for high talent and developed skills. I have found that the industry is full of opportunity but all good things come from those you do outside of your day to day job.
If you truly want to make the games industry worth it then learn your business, learn your finance, learn the industry inside and out. When you have your skills, have a brilliant body of connections, and have built relationships then you can do many things in this business. The field changes so much that it requires constant adaptation, and the ability to get knocked down and get right back up again. If you can do that you will go far. If you cannot, then some comfy desk job or the simple life in other industries may be better for you. If you want to be great at what you do, put the time in to do it, and surround yourself with others who do what you wish to do, and do it really fucking well, then you will be part of the cream that rises to the top.
If you are just getting into the business for money then go elsewhere. This is a business of passion and drive, and constant reaching for growth and improvement through self education and hard work. If you can do the Kung Fu, then you can do just about anything...including make money and have a stable life. As for me, the industry gave me the experiences I wanted, and keeps me wanting more. I love it. it isn't easy, but it has been worth all the work, pleasure, pain, heartbreak, and happiness.
What are you doing nowadays Jason? I thought you owned a few companies in China and an art School in Texas. Are you still a production artist on some level or are you existing as a business manager/instructor?
Game Industry and technology will never slow down.
This is parts of business and the reason Autodesk keep releasing a new version of their entire software list every years.
That is why everyone need to keep rushing, producing and learning.
Well learning isn't bad. But we aren't machines and need to think life too.
I come to this thread trough the post of Hazardous sharing his point of view on his carrier and life.
Below I'll do the same in a short version I guess, another point of view.
I am not a kick ass artist, but well, I probably know to do much other things a kick ass 3D artist can't do as well.
We all come into the game industry because we are drugged to 3D, other by concept art, game design, programming, effect, etc...
Just try to understand and remember why you came or would like to come into the game industry.
To create games isn't it?
I think there is a time for 3D, 2D, animation, and programming.
Keep in mind the very old school age, where veteran wrote program, draw their own pixel art and often music too!!
An amazing period.
Today most of colleagues they touched the sky with their skill try to go on another discipline.
Sometime the result of boring work where surprise doesn't exist anymore.
No surprise, no exciting feel, that is empty work.
Well, I come here with my 2 cents folio of course, but during the past 4 years I keep going on many field I can as 3D, animation, programming.
before those 4 years, I went in a 3D school, got a job in a company as 3D artist, another one after it and shortly left.
I am years of light to kick ass on 3D field.
But today I know that to create game is my drug.
I do not feel anymore difference between 3D, animation, and programming.
I need both to keep going.
But yes I am not 100% kick ass.
You can divide this percentage as many field I daily deal with.
3D low poly is amazing, C# and other JS or Mel are amazing too. To create all animations, rig and skin for all characters, creatures your create is really exiting work.
That is very important to find why you would like to go into the game industry.
I already stop fighting years ago those big companies looking for kick ass 3D, kick ass animator, kick ass programmer.
I am not a kick ass gig, I just like to create game and need to work all those fields to feel alive.
I am on my 30yo this December, married, 2 kids and live Japan.
I keep straight on my work doing the best to mix family and work at home.
That is THE MASTER challenge I want to keep going the rest of my life.
And that is pretty HARD but challenging.
And who want, can do.
Today that is extremely rare to share with someone experience on all those fields because most of guys working into the game industry are mainly skilled on something very specific.
A 3d artist will feel extremely boring speaking programming stuff and other programmer will feel deeply dying speaking art stuff (that is "lol" I feel so sometimes)
Remember guys, a game is made of coding, art and many other else.
All those things are very exciting stuff and I beg you to give it a try to both!!!
Having a life. Spending time with friends. You list these things like they are a bad thing. Really?
I hate to be the odd man out here since everyone is gushing and agreeing with Hazardous, but those are two of the most important things in life.
When all is said and done, having a "life" is really all that matters and it's what you will wish you had when you are old and grey. Be happy no matter what that entails. Don't be a slave to becoming a (game)artist unless is makes you happy. Pretty simple.
Having a life. Spending time with friends. You list these things like they are a bad thing. Really?
I hate to be the odd man out here since everyone is gushing and agreeing with Hazardous, but those are two of the most important things in life.
When all is said and done, having a "life" is really all that matters and it's what you will wish you had when you are old and grey. Be happy no matter what that entails. Don't be a slave to becoming a (game)artist unless is makes you happy. Pretty simple.
You seem to be illustrating this point without really understanding it yourself.
I can't speak for Haz, but I personally spent about 2 years living with my parents while self-studying - not paying any rent or bills but living off around $500/year - hardly ever seeing any of my friends or "having a life".
I did that to put myself in a career that makes me happy, which I find more fulfilling than literally anything else I've ever done in my life.
You seem to be illustrating this point without really understanding it yourself.
How so? Do we know each other? If working 12 hours a day to get a job that makes you happy is WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY, then sure, go for it. If you are trying to get out of a shitty situation like living in your parent's basement and aren't happy to begin with then sure.
All I am promoting is a healthy balance between trying to "make it" and living life. If you spend every waking hour training to be better than that "next generation of young artists from China, Korea, India, Russia", you may miss out on some things.
Don't do that man! You might actually cause a veteran who knows more than you to get slightly inspired to tell you what's up irrevocably changing the tone of the thread!
If you spend every waking hour training to be better than that "next generation of young artists from China, Korea, India, Russia", you may miss out on some things.
Unfortunately society has encouraged that way of life as a measure for success. Not that I'm saying that what the successful people do is wrong or that simply calling a lazier lifestyle a subjective success, but simply that people often end up working the way society wants because that's how society pays them to live. Chicken and Egg stuff.
Having a life. Spending time with friends. You list these things like they are a bad thing. Really?
I hate to be the odd man out here since everyone is gushing and agreeing with Hazardous, but those are two of the most important things in life.
When all is said and done, having a "life" is really all that matters and it's what you will wish you had when you are old and grey. Be happy no matter what that entails. Don't be a slave to becoming a (game)artist unless is makes you happy. Pretty simple.
Gotta agree wholeheartedly. Of course there is a time and a place to "invest" in yourself and maybe forego the silly socializing and buckle down on art, but never should you ignore real life for a computer monitor. I love making games, but I love my husband, my friends, good dinner, working in my garden, playing with my dog, a walk in the sun, much much more.
Unfortunately society has encouraged that way of life as a measure for success.
Yeah and that's too bad. I don't think it's true for all societies, but here in the US it has certainly become a way of life. Living to work instead of working to live and all that.
Really though, all I am trying to say is do what makes you happy. If that entails sitting at a computer and ignoring friends and family for 12 hours a day then so be it.
What are you doing nowadays Jason? I thought you owned a few companies in China and an art School in Texas. Are you still a production artist on some level or are you existing as a business manager/instructor?
I am working on some new stuff that will have me back doing production art within the next couple weeks. We are working on some tech that will allow 2d and 3d artists to make illustration based RPG's (mobile, pc, and tablet based) in an effort to free artists from being tied to the grind of a day job, and give folks an ability to create and test new worlds in the market. I have had my fill of business. Yes I am still doing TAD. MB Shanghai's studios are now mine and renamed Brilliant Colors, and of course ConceptArt.Org is still ticking away....the new tech is a big part of the latter. Simply put, I have been doing a lot of biz planning/building and teaching and am finally going to get to paint again. Can't wait.
Thanks for asking too. I wish you all the best with this stuff and think that the industry is worth it for those who really want to have a way to refine their art as they do their day jobs. It's been good to me..and tough on me too...but it has been worth it.
All I am promoting is a healthy balance between trying to "make it" and living life. If you spend every waking hour training to be better than that "next generation of young artists from China, Korea, India, Russia", you may miss out on some things.
I'm not trying to say that you should spend all your time working on your art and folio, just that ... for a lot of people its kind of a sacrifice you have to make.
I do agree with you, and working on that healthy balance between art/work and enjoying my life is definitely something I've been doing since I landed a stable studio job.
My point is that its very easy to say things like this when you *arent* struggling to get your first break in your career. You can be damned sure that if I didn't feel like my job was secure I would be working my ass off improving my portfolio more than I am right now.
Especially now when it's harder to get that first break than it ever has been before.
Marks... you do realise who Matabus is, right? I'm pretty sure he knows what it's like to break in.
The thing I'm curious about though, is that at what point does the lack of a 'life' actually end? I'm hearing increasingly of people who bust their ass for 15 hours a day trying to break in, only to end up spending their first 6 months in their first job working just as much.
Heck I know one guy who graduated after putting in a LOT of hours, he went to work with a pretty big name dev house, and went straight into working 7 days a week for the first 4 months.
That's what's holding me back at the moment, the dream/ambition alone was enough to keep me busting ass for many hours a day, constantly telling my friends and family 'It'll be fine once I get a job, THEN we can have some fun' but it seems now that it's always gonna be like this and even when I do land a job, I still won't have any free time.
That's what's holding me back at the moment, the dream/ambition alone was enough to keep me busting ass for many hours a day, constantly telling my friends and family 'It'll be fine once I get a job, THEN we can have some fun' but it seems now that it's always gonna be like this and even when I do land a job, I still won't have any free time.
Popular misconception. If a job has you working yourself to death, it's time for a new one. I understand a lot of people who are just starting out take the whole death-march-crunch-time situation as an inevitability, but it really doesn't have to be that way. There are just as many studios out there (albeit not as well known ones) who treat their employees like humans and not machines.
There are just as many studios out there (albeit not as well known ones) who treat their employees like humans and not machines.
Are there really? (Genuine question, not a rhetorical one).
I hear of so many people who are locked into 12 hour days either because they're shit-scared of getting canned, or because 90% of the other guys they work with do it and they don't want to look like the jackass who packs up at 5:30.
There's even a number of examples posted here on PC regularly which give the impression that it's just 'the done thing' and is just 'the way it is'.
And I guess that's what scares me off a little, I mean, I'm reading the posts here and I'm thinking 'well, I love doing this, I really do, but I don't love it that much'.
There are just as many studios out there (albeit not as well known ones) who treat their employees like humans and not machines.
Hard to imagine that as a junior artist i would be able to pick and choose like that especially with the weekly layoff threads and constant posts about how much effort it takes to break in.
Are there really? (Genuine question, not a rhetorical one).
Yes, there are. Even when I worked at Mythic I never had the death march crunch. There were people who crunched and there were people who didn't. It was really the artist's call. Even after EA acquired us it wasn't any different.
I think the whole idea of having to crunch to not look like an asshole is an outdated one that needs to go away.
I don't think you need to spend every waking hour on training to keep being great at what you do. If you reach a point where you're considered great then you might get a great job where you also get to do awesome stuff. At that point you might not need to do stuff on your free time as much as before and you can focus on family and friends or whatever you wish.
Are there really? (Genuine question, not a rhetorical one).
I hear of so many people who are locked into 12 hour days either because they're shit-scared of getting canned, or because 90% of the other guys they work with do it and they don't want to look like the jackass who packs up at 5:30.
There's even a number of examples posted here on PC regularly which give the impression that it's just 'the done thing' and is just 'the way it is'.
And I guess that's what scares me off a little, I mean, I'm reading the posts here and I'm thinking 'well, I love doing this, I really do, but I don't love it that much'.
I know what you mean.... I'm in the same boat. I love doing any kind of art, yeah, but how much really? Am I willing to nearly not spend any time with family? Am I willing to grind for 3 years only to get a job and begin grinding for the next however long years? Do I work today to build a better tomorrow, or do I enjoy today? Its crazy stuff.
Where have you heard this? A lot of times it is usually poor management.. I think I had a friend tell me once - 'Six months of crunch can save hours of planning'.
I can't speak for all studios but when I was at an Activision studio they heavily emphasized on not doing overtime and my AD hammered it into my skull to always let someone know if I was overwhelmed with the workload. I think you will find this masochistic twelve hour regular workday to be more an exception than the norm.
If you are worried about insane workloads at studios I recommend you look at studios with low turnover and with people who have been with the studio for long periods of time. A good studio will reward and keep people. A bad one will see people leave for better places or just quit all together.
They can come in all sizes, and aren't necessairly prevalent in just games.
To the OP
Choose what you feel is right. I thought it was cool as heck to work in games when I was 16. I still think it's cool as heck. Just live a life until you get to it, and try to live one after you get into it.
Having a life. Spending time with friends. You list these things like they are a bad thing. Really?
If your trying to get into this industry and get noticed, yeah I'll say it. I think its a bad thing. I think its stymieing your chances of becoming as good as you need to, and getting you in as fast as you can. You only need to sacrifice them for an amount of time that it takes for you to give full effort and get in.
Once you've made it, you can reduce the intensity to whatever makes you happy. That would be my advice to any student attempting those first steps.
It sounds more like you took those things out of context and meant them in a way that you would need to continue this forever and deny yourself those things which is absolutely not the case.
You can make it into this industry and be 100% content by just being good enough to do what you want. I would say thats probably about 90% of the people I've ever worked with, and you know, more power to them, especially if they are happy!
But my viewpoint is - just being good enough - is not good enough for me. I want more than that. I'm not content to sit at any job with my artwork stagnating and my skills going rusty.
Snacuum: If your eluding to me being that 'industry vet' - your sorely mistaken. I'm an artist just trying to improove myself, sharing my thoughts and what worked for me, in the hope that even 1 other person gets something from it. If the advice doesnt work for you, doesnt fit in with your life, dont take it
Hazardous, good post dude. I think the more people that make it clear that buckling down and spending the hours is the RIGHT way to get good, the better. I don't always succeed in doing that with my time -- but I'm acutely aware at how much improvement i'm missing out on when i spend a few hours playing games. Take notice, guys!
If your trying to get into this industry and get noticed, yeah I'll say it. I think its a bad thing. I think its stymieing your chances of becoming as good as you need to, and getting you in as fast as you can.
I guess that's where we differ. Friends, family, booze, bicycles, food, social interaction ... all of these things aren't stymieing my artistic growth, they are facilitating it.
*edit - I forgot to mention girls! Girls, girls, GIRLS!
I guess that's where we differ. Friends, family, booze, bicycles, food, social interaction ... all of these things aren't stymieing my artistic growth, they are facilitating it.
Haha Touche!
Well man, maybe if you feel compelled to, it may be useful for you to write up why and how it has worked for you. The more sharing of varying views that lead to sucess the better I say. I could probably learn a lot from it myself. *begs*
I don't think you need to spend every waking hour on training to keep being great at what you do. If you reach a point where you're considered great then you might get a great job where you also get to do awesome stuff. At that point you might not need to do stuff on your free time as much as before and you can focus on family and friends or whatever you wish.
What is being considered great? In art i always find that there is no real being great and that you can grow no matter how good you are.
It was a post that triggered dave rapoza to dedicate an enormous amount of time on doing studies while he was already being called great and had pretty sweet gigs going on.
It was a post that triggered dave rapoza to dedicate an enormous amount of time on doing studies while he was already being called great and had pretty sweet gigs going on.
I know it isn't a 100% on topic so sorry for that
Well no, of course you can never reach a maximum level of greatness in art. You keep learning stuff no matter how good you are. That's a whole other matter however and not what I was talking about.
What I meant by my previous post was about reaching a level which is considered good enough to get a good job at a great studio. Working your ass off 24-7 even then might burn you out if you don't control it well. I'm not really sure if it's worth it either unless there is some other job you want to get.
To me this rounds out to having a healthy sustainable work ethic, settling in for the long haul, building a skill base that will expand over a 40 year career and living a pretty good life.
Well man, maybe if you feel compelled to, it may be useful for you to write up why and how it has worked for you. The more sharing of varying views that lead to sucess the better I say. I could probably learn a lot from it myself. *begs*
I presume some of what Matabus is getting at is, its important keep current with cultural and popular trends in ways that don't involve a screen. That you can be a great artist and lead an exciting life all at the same time.
Dont get me wrong i do think you gave a bunch of great advice, i constantly need to keep online distractions in check myself, so easy to lose productive or leisure time to aimless browsing.
Snacuum: If your eluding to me being that 'industry vet' - your sorely mistaken. I'm an artist just trying to improove myself, sharing my thoughts and what worked for me, in the hope that even 1 other person gets something from it. If the advice doesnt work for you, doesnt fit in with your life, dont take it
hey hey hey I am taking it. I was being quite churlish with my other post, all jokes and stuff. To me I considered you a vet. I know your stuff from here and Tsumea, as well my housemate Tejay spoke quite highly of you (of course I hope I'm talking about the same Hazardous) So for a guy like me who's never got an industry job and struggling with all this (6 characters a year being bad? try 1 in 6 years) you're practically a vet in comparison to me, and smart too as evidenced by the path of this thread.
i think these times are just horrible for any industry. The Economy is bad, so that means less and less jobs, which stresses everyone out. I always try to remember that i get to make art and get paid for it. That makes it worth it. my 2 cents.
The way I see it, as in any other industry, there's two ways you can go... management or specialization. For both Hazardous post is great inspiration, but the importance of art becomes less if you go the management route.
To become, let's say a team lead, you still need to be a great artist. But great artists don't necessarily make good team leads. Organized people, who can deliver on time, who're good with their estimates, who work well with other people, who help juniors - those might want to go into that direction rather than specializing into art. Good leaders with a solid foundation of art is the best that can happen to a team. And no the best artist doesn't automatically become the team lead... if this happens in your company, then there's something wrong.
Or Other people become tech artists... some show the AD concept pieces and move to concept art...
Just saying, just because you're an animator/modeler/etc. right now doesn't mean you're stuck there and all you can do is specialize, specialize and specialize. There's many ways to succeed and be valuable to a team and bring in your expertise. Doesn't mean you're useless just because your folio ain't that much up to date.
I kinda see it like in the military, everyone should've been to the trenches, but later it's important for the General to see the big picture and he's got specialists below him, he doesn't need to be the best warrior any more. The only challenge is to show any future employer, why exactly your old company made your a "General" and how you'll successfully fill that role at a new place. This mostly applies to leads...if you're a production artist with 10 years experience and no current folio, then you're really fxxxed
production artist with 10 years experience and no current folio, then you're really fxxxed
This really rustles my jimmies, there was even a Kotaku article on it recently. I understand that publishers want to be the owners of all IP and artifacts made by their employers, but the fact that means you got nothing to show for it once you're out? Just stupid. Surely we should be able to set up contracts that allow us to have 'license' of approved items we have made for the game to be put in our folio once NDA can no longer apply?
This really rustles my jimmies, there was even a Kotaku article on it recently. I understand that publishers want to be the owners of all IP and artifacts made by their employers, but the fact that means you got nothing to show for it once you're out? Just stupid. Surely we should be able to set up contracts that allow us to have 'license' of approved items we have made for the game to be put in our folio once NDA can no longer apply?
I've been told as long as a player can rip it, you can use it. So the only time you're screwed is when a project is canceled, although I've seen people with work from canceled games in their portfolios.
maybe 10 years is long, but consider this, I've been starting on a MMO project in 2006. The thing isn't out yet and I have not much which I can put on a public folio from that project. If you're unlucky long dev cycles can work against you and then you better start working on your own stuff!
I've spoken to people who've been in the industry for ages and they've got not much to show if you ask them "could you put together a decent folio that matches your skill in a week?". Bad situation to get into, and it's totally possible that this can happen to someone. So yeah, work on your own stuff! You should at least have enough lying around to hack together a somewhat decent folio if required. If you cannot do that, it starts to get dangerous I'd say.
I've been told as long as a player can rip it, you can use it. So the only time you're screwed is when a project is canceled, although I've seen people with work from canceled games in their portfolios.
I think this is pretty common, but you don't see this stuff on public folios or folio websites. Everyone involved is usually professional enough to realize that the guy is doing it is just going to get a job and not to leak info on purpose.
And yes, once it's release you can take screenshots. "Ripping" 3d models may be illegal depending on country (is this reverse engineering?) and showing them publicly. Posting production shots and models of your work publicly may also be illegal depending on your country or contract, unless you get permission from your employer. But then again most people don't seem to care if your honest intention is to just get a job and you're discreet about it.
I guess that's where we differ. Friends, family, booze, bicycles, food, social interaction ... all of these things aren't stymieing my artistic growth, they are facilitating it.
*edit - I forgot to mention girls! Girls, girls, GIRLS!
But are you already employed as an artist? I mean, girls are awesome but they are also huge time investments. Nothing will eat your practice/learning time like a girlfriend.
I get what Hazardous is saying. When I was trying to become a level designer, that's what I did. I made levels. Every spare minute I had was put into level design. Going out was a real luxury and if you're being honest, every minute not spent working on your craft in the early days, is a minute you're falling behind. When you're not working on your skills, somebody else is working on theirs, and they're going to get that job that you wanted.
I've transitioned through several roles over my career so far (level designer, programmer, scripting level designer, and now trying to get into meshing and lighting) so I tend to spend a lot of time trying to learn things and get better at whatever I'm currently attempting. This has pros and cons as I'm competent at these things rather than being a master. But you make your choices...
As Hazardous also said, it's not forever. But until you land the job you want and are making the stuff you want to make, doing anything other than working on your skills is, essentially, wasted time. IMO. I mean, take breaks, sure ... you can't work EVERY hour of every day as your brain will melt. But you should try to work most of them.
I guess that's where we differ. Friends, family, booze, bicycles, food, social interaction ... all of these things aren't stymieing my artistic growth, they are facilitating it.
*edit - I forgot to mention girls! Girls, girls, GIRLS!
Oh beleive me I'm not advocating for not working on your folio, just freaked me out when I heard sad stories of guys who worked for so long with "nothing to show for it."
other than working on your skills is, essentially, wasted time.
I hope my uni studies are counting in that area then.
Its funny, reading this post i can see myself 12 years ago (as Hazardous) and as i am now (Matabus).
It took me years of effort to make it into this industry and after much effort i experienced the bliss of finally making it, getting a job in games and when you begin your career you go in wide eyed,wanting to be the good solider who sticks it out during crunch and puts in 60 hours a week. Thankfully i wasnt one of those jerks who looked down at the people who actually left on time and enjoyed their spare time and life. My career in games has allowed me to travel to many wonderful places which i would have never imagined seeing, i met my wife because of it and i had my good moments,along with the highs there have also been many bitter lows.
The bits of advice i can offer is
1. You are young not but you will get older and your perspectives will change.
2. A career in games can also be a roll of the dice.
There are some lucky few people who will get a good job in games,have stability,love the company you work for and if your really lucky work for a company who actually cares for you.Sadly those are the lucky few.
For the rest of us it can be an extreme roller coaster and the weight of our experiences whether good or bad will have a huge effect on your outlook of this industry as a whole. So most of us are wide eyed workaholics when we enter the biz but as you get older you will see that for the most part that wide eye enthusiasm is something that employers will take advantage of for their gains and when they have overworked you to the point of exhaustion, your reward will most likely be a pink slip as opposed to a bonus check.
You hope off course that will land a job at a well oiled machine such as Valve or be part of the latest up and coming dev studio that will launch a blockbuster out of no where, this does happen but in reality you will most likely work in badly managed studios, with petty and incompetent management who will make huge mistakes run the company into the ground leading to pink slips for one and all.
I admire talented and hardworking people and to get far in this industry you need both but the reality is that this industry is a roll of the dice. Ive seen many talented and hardworking individuals screwed over by some in more fortunate positions.
Once you make in it this industry you really need to think ahead for the future because once you get older,get married and possibly have children your outlook will most certainly change. The older you are in this industry the less likely you are to be that gung ho, crunch warrior as you were in your early 20's
My post may sound negative,perhaps but if given the choice again of working in games i would do it again, how i go about in my career in games is a whole different story.
One last thing i would like to share is my bitter enmity i have towards people in this industry who look down at others because they choose have a life and live it. That sort of mentality is the type that feeds the perception in this industry that crunch is always inevitable/honorable as opposed to what it really is and that is a failure in management.
JO420- great post too. I think this and Hazardous post have great advice and inspiration value. Definitely keep working on your skills, and even though you may not believe it yet, your outlook on life, the industry and how to strike a balance with both WILL change during your time in it.
I'd just like to point out. Hazardous did flat out say in his post he doesn't learn as quickly as others, so he needed to spend that time to get better. So right there, if you find you learn quickly, or get better a higher rate than he, then you don't have to spend as much time as he did. You can still have your life outside your workstation.
Im starting an online course soon to better myself and get that better job. It is my "extra step" to push myself. It is going to eat up almost all my free time. But, starting out, I am setting aside wednesdays for my beach volleyball league, and friday / saturday for my girlfriend and friends. If I find I need more time for my work, THEN I'll cut back the social life even more.
But like an earlier post said, my social life is part of my creative growth. Hell, my friends and I are plan on making a studio down the line, and we talk about that fairly often. In my close group of friends, we have the writers, programmer, artist, business guy.
You need to find a balance for your own life. I do agree with Haz about the difference between "trying" and trying, but each persons scale is going to be different. Some may need more social life to stay balanced and happy. Some may need less.
I think part of what Hazardous was getting at though is when you say you're trying, are you actually working, or is your maya/max open in the background, or on one screen, while you are surfing facebook on the other screen? If you say you`re going to work, commit to doing that work. Stay off the internet.. I use to be HORRIBLE for that. "What you doing?" "Animating" meanwhile, ya, i have an animation file open, but Im really just watching tv.
One last thing i would like to share is my bitter enmity i have towards people in this industry who look down at others because they choose have a life and live it. That sort of mentality is the type that feeds the perception in this industry that crunch is always inevitable/honorable as opposed to what it really is and that is a failure in management.
To paraphrase the book... you need 10k hours of doing something to be pro at it. However you get those 10k hours is up to you, and at whatever speed, but when you finish your 10k you'll have the ability to take advantage of opportunities that arrise.
Replies
Lots of us end up workaholics with this frame of mind, mainly because there are always new things to learn and the industry is progressing so quickly that you need to be up to par all the time. Some give up and end up just being veterans just learning the bare minimum of what they need to know to get by.
That's what's really scary about new graduates churning out awesome in a rapid pace. =P even scarier if you're a lazy comfortable veteran and a production artist.
But yeah, always work hard and stay true to your promises to yourself, it'll help you with the discipline needed for this industry.
Seeing as OP is a recent graduate, I myself graduated 2 years ago; fast forward to now and of my class...I'm probably the only one that obtained the job title 'character artist' just like I wanted and for damn sure it wasn't because I am "talented", it was because I *REALLY* wanted it. After I graduated, most of the people I knew went back to their hometowns to relax a little bit before going job hunting.....I didn't, because I was afraid of the comfort. Instead, I packed the cloths I had and immediately moved to Los Angeles. Everybody called me crazy because I had no plan at all, what I did have was this dream world of the industry and I needed to see it for myself.
I spent a year and a half in LA before moving back to FL. I learned many things during that time, but one thing still sticks to me the most about what I've experienced and will probably always stick with me. I was royally pissed off by the amount of people I saw with "talent" just coasting along and not thinking much of the opportunities they got while I would die to have the crumbs.
So as Hazardous has said very well, that is exactly what I did. Creating characters and learning was the only thing I did all day..aside from bathroom breaks and eating. Every two weeks, I got on gamedevmap.com and applied to every single studio(US,Canada, random countries in Europe) that had an email link for me to send, even if I didn't know the language f**k it, I'll pick up rosetta stone if I get hired. Now I'm at the start of my career with the type of job I've dreamed of and I am still spending nearly 24/7 because there will always be someone better and I don't want to "settle" or "coast".
So yes, this industry does have its flaws and may be volatile in a sense, but if you really WANT it and DEDICATE so much to it, the volatile part of the business wont get to you or get you down.
Just wanted to share my personal experience and say thank you to Hazardous from the bottom of my heart for putting it so well.
Also, I hope that I am not the only weirdo that feels guilty about sleeping, lol
I am a bit late on this, i know, but I just wanted to drop in and add to Kwramm's statement: I agree 100%.
Austrian Airlines to cut 1,000 jobs
Ford files layoff notice, hitting 1,222 workers
OP! The links above are examples of massive layoffs in other industries.
All my friends that are in different industries have good things to say about the industry they are in and of course bad, sometimes even VERY bad. There is no perfect industry, or perfect company. Yes, there are companies that try hard to create a good working environment for it's employees, which is great and those are the companies that I would try to get into eventually, but nothing will ever be rainbows, roses and unicorns.
I am just in the beginning of my carreer so I can't speak with years of experience on my back, like many other guys here. But I can agree with them: If you like making games, it is definitely worth it. Where I work, we don't make glorious blockbuster games, but i'm still happy if I get to animate a whole teaser/trailer, or a batch of in-game animations and finish it in the given timeframe.
Like in other peoples case, from my class at college (about 20 something students), only 3-4 people got a job. Some people didn't work on their portfolio at all, some spent way too little time on it. So with that in mind, an example:
I read a thread once (about a year and a half ago, i was still in college) here on PC, where the OP of that thread had said that he didn't get a job and didn't know why, so people here started giving him advice. Advice like "move to a company hub" or "improve your folio". The OP didn't think that it was his portfolio's fault. Until that point he hadn't showed his portfolio, mind you. So people were assuming he was at least above average. When he finally showed his portfolio, people raised their eyebrows. Not because all his art was bad, some pieces where actually really good. But! His website was ugly and honestly very weird to navigate (hidden buttons etc.), his cv had spelling errors all over the place and some pieces of his weren't up to par.
So one guy posted something that is very obvious, but still very true that changed my perspective:
"If companies won't hire you, there is always a reason for it."
What I'm trying to say is that I understood that if companies won't hire me over an X amount of time, it's very possible that my work is just not good enough, or presented in a bad light, or I have too generic art, or characters, environments, animations and rigs in my demoreel, confusing everyone in regards of what I really want to do or, really, all of these things together. Which means that in that case, one must sit down and improve their portfolio and try again.
So pretty much I was shown, that the only 'sure' way to make it is doing what Hazardous, spiderDude and all the others did. Which is constantly practicing and improving your work.
tl;dr
If you enjoy modelling, or animating, or whatever you do and making games, then it's worth it. The beginning is always hard, no matter what you do.
ps: thank you guys for posting, it's always great to read such golden information, personal stories and/or advice.
could have sworn this was the other college advice thread...
I got my start as a texture artist intern, wishing to be a concept artist. I had to fight tooth and nail to earn it, each step of the way. So far...13 years, contributions to around 300 titles, ranging from concept art, to character art to art direction to painting dirt, to brand development, vision, gui, biz dev, consulting, strategy etc..etc...
Talks at TEDx, GDC, GCDC, DICE, DICE ASIA, ANIMFX NZ, xmedialab, kr8v Malaysia, and many others. In that time I visited 25 or so countries, and have lived around the US and Asia. Credits include God of War 3, Diablo 3, Bioshock 2, Killzone 2, and even garbage titles no one played.
I worked inside the pubs, with small developers, and eventually built multiple companies. I have met my best friends, lost close friends, found love, learned things I never knew about, and experienced things I didn't think I'd get to, coming from a very small town and dirt poor background. I have been able to see the world, meet brilliant minds, and follow my passions and my heart. I have gone on to teach others, run my web portal, and continue to chase dreams.
I have had hostile takeover attempts of my studios from four different companies including two of the largest publishers, have been betrayed, screwed over and all sorts of headaches were found. It is not all sweets and sugar. Everything worth doing comes with challenges that one does not expect, and failures one does not wish for. Such is life.
what I have found is that there is no shortage of need for high talent and developed skills. I have found that the industry is full of opportunity but all good things come from those you do outside of your day to day job.
If you truly want to make the games industry worth it then learn your business, learn your finance, learn the industry inside and out. When you have your skills, have a brilliant body of connections, and have built relationships then you can do many things in this business. The field changes so much that it requires constant adaptation, and the ability to get knocked down and get right back up again. If you can do that you will go far. If you cannot, then some comfy desk job or the simple life in other industries may be better for you. If you want to be great at what you do, put the time in to do it, and surround yourself with others who do what you wish to do, and do it really fucking well, then you will be part of the cream that rises to the top.
If you are just getting into the business for money then go elsewhere. This is a business of passion and drive, and constant reaching for growth and improvement through self education and hard work. If you can do the Kung Fu, then you can do just about anything...including make money and have a stable life. As for me, the industry gave me the experiences I wanted, and keeps me wanting more. I love it. it isn't easy, but it has been worth all the work, pleasure, pain, heartbreak, and happiness.
Best of luck to you folks.
JM
This thread has been an intresting read so far. And yeah, passion is probably where it's at if you want to make it.
F*ck that life is hard but there no other way, Hazardous is right and kick my f* ass !
Thank you for that!
This is parts of business and the reason Autodesk keep releasing a new version of their entire software list every years.
That is why everyone need to keep rushing, producing and learning.
Well learning isn't bad. But we aren't machines and need to think life too.
I come to this thread trough the post of Hazardous sharing his point of view on his carrier and life.
Below I'll do the same in a short version I guess, another point of view.
I am not a kick ass artist, but well, I probably know to do much other things a kick ass 3D artist can't do as well.
=======================================================================================
We all come into the game industry because we are drugged to 3D, other by concept art, game design, programming, effect, etc...
Just try to understand and remember why you came or would like to come into the game industry.
To create games isn't it?
I think there is a time for 3D, 2D, animation, and programming.
Keep in mind the very old school age, where veteran wrote program, draw their own pixel art and often music too!!
An amazing period.
Today most of colleagues they touched the sky with their skill try to go on another discipline.
Sometime the result of boring work where surprise doesn't exist anymore.
No surprise, no exciting feel, that is empty work.
Well, I come here with my 2 cents folio of course, but during the past 4 years I keep going on many field I can as 3D, animation, programming.
before those 4 years, I went in a 3D school, got a job in a company as 3D artist, another one after it and shortly left.
I am years of light to kick ass on 3D field.
But today I know that to create game is my drug.
I do not feel anymore difference between 3D, animation, and programming.
I need both to keep going.
But yes I am not 100% kick ass.
You can divide this percentage as many field I daily deal with.
3D low poly is amazing, C# and other JS or Mel are amazing too. To create all animations, rig and skin for all characters, creatures your create is really exiting work.
That is very important to find why you would like to go into the game industry.
I already stop fighting years ago those big companies looking for kick ass 3D, kick ass animator, kick ass programmer.
I am not a kick ass gig, I just like to create game and need to work all those fields to feel alive.
I am on my 30yo this December, married, 2 kids and live Japan.
I keep straight on my work doing the best to mix family and work at home.
That is THE MASTER challenge I want to keep going the rest of my life.
And that is pretty HARD but challenging.
And who want, can do.
=======================================================================================
Hope some of you will share some common points.
Today that is extremely rare to share with someone experience on all those fields because most of guys working into the game industry are mainly skilled on something very specific.
A 3d artist will feel extremely boring speaking programming stuff and other programmer will feel deeply dying speaking art stuff (that is "lol" I feel so sometimes)
Remember guys, a game is made of coding, art and many other else.
All those things are very exciting stuff and I beg you to give it a try to both!!!
Thomas/
Having a life. Spending time with friends. You list these things like they are a bad thing. Really?
I hate to be the odd man out here since everyone is gushing and agreeing with Hazardous, but those are two of the most important things in life.
When all is said and done, having a "life" is really all that matters and it's what you will wish you had when you are old and grey. Be happy no matter what that entails. Don't be a slave to becoming a (game)artist unless is makes you happy. Pretty simple.
You seem to be illustrating this point without really understanding it yourself.
I can't speak for Haz, but I personally spent about 2 years living with my parents while self-studying - not paying any rent or bills but living off around $500/year - hardly ever seeing any of my friends or "having a life".
I did that to put myself in a career that makes me happy, which I find more fulfilling than literally anything else I've ever done in my life.
I think that's a fair trade.
How so? Do we know each other? If working 12 hours a day to get a job that makes you happy is WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY, then sure, go for it. If you are trying to get out of a shitty situation like living in your parent's basement and aren't happy to begin with then sure.
All I am promoting is a healthy balance between trying to "make it" and living life. If you spend every waking hour training to be better than that "next generation of young artists from China, Korea, India, Russia", you may miss out on some things.
To each his own though, I suppose.
Unfortunately society has encouraged that way of life as a measure for success. Not that I'm saying that what the successful people do is wrong or that simply calling a lazier lifestyle a subjective success, but simply that people often end up working the way society wants because that's how society pays them to live. Chicken and Egg stuff.
Gotta agree wholeheartedly. Of course there is a time and a place to "invest" in yourself and maybe forego the silly socializing and buckle down on art, but never should you ignore real life for a computer monitor. I love making games, but I love my husband, my friends, good dinner, working in my garden, playing with my dog, a walk in the sun, much much more.
Work to live, don't live to work.
Yeah and that's too bad. I don't think it's true for all societies, but here in the US it has certainly become a way of life. Living to work instead of working to live and all that.
Really though, all I am trying to say is do what makes you happy. If that entails sitting at a computer and ignoring friends and family for 12 hours a day then so be it.
I am working on some new stuff that will have me back doing production art within the next couple weeks. We are working on some tech that will allow 2d and 3d artists to make illustration based RPG's (mobile, pc, and tablet based) in an effort to free artists from being tied to the grind of a day job, and give folks an ability to create and test new worlds in the market. I have had my fill of business. Yes I am still doing TAD. MB Shanghai's studios are now mine and renamed Brilliant Colors, and of course ConceptArt.Org is still ticking away....the new tech is a big part of the latter. Simply put, I have been doing a lot of biz planning/building and teaching and am finally going to get to paint again. Can't wait.
Thanks for asking too. I wish you all the best with this stuff and think that the industry is worth it for those who really want to have a way to refine their art as they do their day jobs. It's been good to me..and tough on me too...but it has been worth it.
JM
Doubts have gone the way of the dodo.
Thanks Hazardous.
I'm not trying to say that you should spend all your time working on your art and folio, just that ... for a lot of people its kind of a sacrifice you have to make.
I do agree with you, and working on that healthy balance between art/work and enjoying my life is definitely something I've been doing since I landed a stable studio job.
My point is that its very easy to say things like this when you *arent* struggling to get your first break in your career. You can be damned sure that if I didn't feel like my job was secure I would be working my ass off improving my portfolio more than I am right now.
Especially now when it's harder to get that first break than it ever has been before.
The thing I'm curious about though, is that at what point does the lack of a 'life' actually end? I'm hearing increasingly of people who bust their ass for 15 hours a day trying to break in, only to end up spending their first 6 months in their first job working just as much.
Heck I know one guy who graduated after putting in a LOT of hours, he went to work with a pretty big name dev house, and went straight into working 7 days a week for the first 4 months.
That's what's holding me back at the moment, the dream/ambition alone was enough to keep me busting ass for many hours a day, constantly telling my friends and family 'It'll be fine once I get a job, THEN we can have some fun' but it seems now that it's always gonna be like this and even when I do land a job, I still won't have any free time.
Popular misconception. If a job has you working yourself to death, it's time for a new one. I understand a lot of people who are just starting out take the whole death-march-crunch-time situation as an inevitability, but it really doesn't have to be that way. There are just as many studios out there (albeit not as well known ones) who treat their employees like humans and not machines.
Are there really? (Genuine question, not a rhetorical one).
I hear of so many people who are locked into 12 hour days either because they're shit-scared of getting canned, or because 90% of the other guys they work with do it and they don't want to look like the jackass who packs up at 5:30.
There's even a number of examples posted here on PC regularly which give the impression that it's just 'the done thing' and is just 'the way it is'.
And I guess that's what scares me off a little, I mean, I'm reading the posts here and I'm thinking 'well, I love doing this, I really do, but I don't love it that much'.
Hard to imagine that as a junior artist i would be able to pick and choose like that especially with the weekly layoff threads and constant posts about how much effort it takes to break in.
Yes, there are. Even when I worked at Mythic I never had the death march crunch. There were people who crunched and there were people who didn't. It was really the artist's call. Even after EA acquired us it wasn't any different.
I think the whole idea of having to crunch to not look like an asshole is an outdated one that needs to go away.
I know what you mean.... I'm in the same boat. I love doing any kind of art, yeah, but how much really? Am I willing to nearly not spend any time with family? Am I willing to grind for 3 years only to get a job and begin grinding for the next however long years? Do I work today to build a better tomorrow, or do I enjoy today? Its crazy stuff.
Even while trying to break into the industry, I had a life. A good balance is very important to have, at least to me.
Where have you heard this? A lot of times it is usually poor management.. I think I had a friend tell me once - 'Six months of crunch can save hours of planning'.
I can't speak for all studios but when I was at an Activision studio they heavily emphasized on not doing overtime and my AD hammered it into my skull to always let someone know if I was overwhelmed with the workload. I think you will find this masochistic twelve hour regular workday to be more an exception than the norm.
If you are worried about insane workloads at studios I recommend you look at studios with low turnover and with people who have been with the studio for long periods of time. A good studio will reward and keep people. A bad one will see people leave for better places or just quit all together.
They can come in all sizes, and aren't necessairly prevalent in just games.
To the OP
Choose what you feel is right. I thought it was cool as heck to work in games when I was 16. I still think it's cool as heck. Just live a life until you get to it, and try to live one after you get into it.
If your trying to get into this industry and get noticed, yeah I'll say it. I think its a bad thing. I think its stymieing your chances of becoming as good as you need to, and getting you in as fast as you can. You only need to sacrifice them for an amount of time that it takes for you to give full effort and get in.
Once you've made it, you can reduce the intensity to whatever makes you happy. That would be my advice to any student attempting those first steps.
It sounds more like you took those things out of context and meant them in a way that you would need to continue this forever and deny yourself those things which is absolutely not the case.
You can make it into this industry and be 100% content by just being good enough to do what you want. I would say thats probably about 90% of the people I've ever worked with, and you know, more power to them, especially if they are happy!
But my viewpoint is - just being good enough - is not good enough for me. I want more than that. I'm not content to sit at any job with my artwork stagnating and my skills going rusty.
Snacuum: If your eluding to me being that 'industry vet' - your sorely mistaken. I'm an artist just trying to improove myself, sharing my thoughts and what worked for me, in the hope that even 1 other person gets something from it. If the advice doesnt work for you, doesnt fit in with your life, dont take it
I guess that's where we differ. Friends, family, booze, bicycles, food, social interaction ... all of these things aren't stymieing my artistic growth, they are facilitating it.
*edit - I forgot to mention girls! Girls, girls, GIRLS!
Haha Touche!
Well man, maybe if you feel compelled to, it may be useful for you to write up why and how it has worked for you. The more sharing of varying views that lead to sucess the better I say. I could probably learn a lot from it myself. *begs*
What is being considered great? In art i always find that there is no real being great and that you can grow no matter how good you are.
somehow it reminded me of this post i read a couple of years back http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2491834&postcount=8
It was a post that triggered dave rapoza to dedicate an enormous amount of time on doing studies while he was already being called great and had pretty sweet gigs going on.
I know it isn't a 100% on topic so sorry for that
Well no, of course you can never reach a maximum level of greatness in art. You keep learning stuff no matter how good you are. That's a whole other matter however and not what I was talking about.
What I meant by my previous post was about reaching a level which is considered good enough to get a good job at a great studio. Working your ass off 24-7 even then might burn you out if you don't control it well. I'm not really sure if it's worth it either unless there is some other job you want to get.
I presume some of what Matabus is getting at is, its important keep current with cultural and popular trends in ways that don't involve a screen. That you can be a great artist and lead an exciting life all at the same time.
Dont get me wrong i do think you gave a bunch of great advice, i constantly need to keep online distractions in check myself, so easy to lose productive or leisure time to aimless browsing.
hey hey hey I am taking it. I was being quite churlish with my other post, all jokes and stuff. To me I considered you a vet. I know your stuff from here and Tsumea, as well my housemate Tejay spoke quite highly of you (of course I hope I'm talking about the same Hazardous) So for a guy like me who's never got an industry job and struggling with all this (6 characters a year being bad? try 1 in 6 years) you're practically a vet in comparison to me, and smart too as evidenced by the path of this thread.
To become, let's say a team lead, you still need to be a great artist. But great artists don't necessarily make good team leads. Organized people, who can deliver on time, who're good with their estimates, who work well with other people, who help juniors - those might want to go into that direction rather than specializing into art. Good leaders with a solid foundation of art is the best that can happen to a team. And no the best artist doesn't automatically become the team lead... if this happens in your company, then there's something wrong.
Or Other people become tech artists... some show the AD concept pieces and move to concept art...
Just saying, just because you're an animator/modeler/etc. right now doesn't mean you're stuck there and all you can do is specialize, specialize and specialize. There's many ways to succeed and be valuable to a team and bring in your expertise. Doesn't mean you're useless just because your folio ain't that much up to date.
I kinda see it like in the military, everyone should've been to the trenches, but later it's important for the General to see the big picture and he's got specialists below him, he doesn't need to be the best warrior any more. The only challenge is to show any future employer, why exactly your old company made your a "General" and how you'll successfully fill that role at a new place. This mostly applies to leads...if you're a production artist with 10 years experience and no current folio, then you're really fxxxed
This really rustles my jimmies, there was even a Kotaku article on it recently. I understand that publishers want to be the owners of all IP and artifacts made by their employers, but the fact that means you got nothing to show for it once you're out? Just stupid. Surely we should be able to set up contracts that allow us to have 'license' of approved items we have made for the game to be put in our folio once NDA can no longer apply?
I've been told as long as a player can rip it, you can use it. So the only time you're screwed is when a project is canceled, although I've seen people with work from canceled games in their portfolios.
I've spoken to people who've been in the industry for ages and they've got not much to show if you ask them "could you put together a decent folio that matches your skill in a week?". Bad situation to get into, and it's totally possible that this can happen to someone. So yeah, work on your own stuff! You should at least have enough lying around to hack together a somewhat decent folio if required. If you cannot do that, it starts to get dangerous I'd say.
I think this is pretty common, but you don't see this stuff on public folios or folio websites. Everyone involved is usually professional enough to realize that the guy is doing it is just going to get a job and not to leak info on purpose.
And yes, once it's release you can take screenshots. "Ripping" 3d models may be illegal depending on country (is this reverse engineering?) and showing them publicly. Posting production shots and models of your work publicly may also be illegal depending on your country or contract, unless you get permission from your employer. But then again most people don't seem to care if your honest intention is to just get a job and you're discreet about it.
But are you already employed as an artist? I mean, girls are awesome but they are also huge time investments. Nothing will eat your practice/learning time like a girlfriend.
I get what Hazardous is saying. When I was trying to become a level designer, that's what I did. I made levels. Every spare minute I had was put into level design. Going out was a real luxury and if you're being honest, every minute not spent working on your craft in the early days, is a minute you're falling behind. When you're not working on your skills, somebody else is working on theirs, and they're going to get that job that you wanted.
I've transitioned through several roles over my career so far (level designer, programmer, scripting level designer, and now trying to get into meshing and lighting) so I tend to spend a lot of time trying to learn things and get better at whatever I'm currently attempting. This has pros and cons as I'm competent at these things rather than being a master. But you make your choices...
As Hazardous also said, it's not forever. But until you land the job you want and are making the stuff you want to make, doing anything other than working on your skills is, essentially, wasted time. IMO. I mean, take breaks, sure ... you can't work EVERY hour of every day as your brain will melt. But you should try to work most of them.
^^ Ditto
I hope my uni studies are counting in that area then.
It took me years of effort to make it into this industry and after much effort i experienced the bliss of finally making it, getting a job in games and when you begin your career you go in wide eyed,wanting to be the good solider who sticks it out during crunch and puts in 60 hours a week. Thankfully i wasnt one of those jerks who looked down at the people who actually left on time and enjoyed their spare time and life. My career in games has allowed me to travel to many wonderful places which i would have never imagined seeing, i met my wife because of it and i had my good moments,along with the highs there have also been many bitter lows.
The bits of advice i can offer is
1. You are young not but you will get older and your perspectives will change.
2. A career in games can also be a roll of the dice.
There are some lucky few people who will get a good job in games,have stability,love the company you work for and if your really lucky work for a company who actually cares for you.Sadly those are the lucky few.
For the rest of us it can be an extreme roller coaster and the weight of our experiences whether good or bad will have a huge effect on your outlook of this industry as a whole. So most of us are wide eyed workaholics when we enter the biz but as you get older you will see that for the most part that wide eye enthusiasm is something that employers will take advantage of for their gains and when they have overworked you to the point of exhaustion, your reward will most likely be a pink slip as opposed to a bonus check.
You hope off course that will land a job at a well oiled machine such as Valve or be part of the latest up and coming dev studio that will launch a blockbuster out of no where, this does happen but in reality you will most likely work in badly managed studios, with petty and incompetent management who will make huge mistakes run the company into the ground leading to pink slips for one and all.
I admire talented and hardworking people and to get far in this industry you need both but the reality is that this industry is a roll of the dice. Ive seen many talented and hardworking individuals screwed over by some in more fortunate positions.
Once you make in it this industry you really need to think ahead for the future because once you get older,get married and possibly have children your outlook will most certainly change. The older you are in this industry the less likely you are to be that gung ho, crunch warrior as you were in your early 20's
My post may sound negative,perhaps but if given the choice again of working in games i would do it again, how i go about in my career in games is a whole different story.
One last thing i would like to share is my bitter enmity i have towards people in this industry who look down at others because they choose have a life and live it. That sort of mentality is the type that feeds the perception in this industry that crunch is always inevitable/honorable as opposed to what it really is and that is a failure in management.
It was worth it for me. I can only speak about myself, and it was the best decision of my life.
Great thread, polycount!
Im starting an online course soon to better myself and get that better job. It is my "extra step" to push myself. It is going to eat up almost all my free time. But, starting out, I am setting aside wednesdays for my beach volleyball league, and friday / saturday for my girlfriend and friends. If I find I need more time for my work, THEN I'll cut back the social life even more.
But like an earlier post said, my social life is part of my creative growth. Hell, my friends and I are plan on making a studio down the line, and we talk about that fairly often. In my close group of friends, we have the writers, programmer, artist, business guy.
You need to find a balance for your own life. I do agree with Haz about the difference between "trying" and trying, but each persons scale is going to be different. Some may need more social life to stay balanced and happy. Some may need less.
I think part of what Hazardous was getting at though is when you say you're trying, are you actually working, or is your maya/max open in the background, or on one screen, while you are surfing facebook on the other screen? If you say you`re going to work, commit to doing that work. Stay off the internet.. I use to be HORRIBLE for that. "What you doing?" "Animating" meanwhile, ya, i have an animation file open, but Im really just watching tv.
Find what works for YOU. Not someone else.
This a billion times.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Outliers-Story-Success-Malcolm-Gladwell/dp/0316017922"]Amazon.com: Outliers: The Story of Success (9780316017923): Malcolm Gladwell: Books[/ame]
To paraphrase the book... you need 10k hours of doing something to be pro at it. However you get those 10k hours is up to you, and at whatever speed, but when you finish your 10k you'll have the ability to take advantage of opportunities that arrise.