I do wonder what she's supposed to do with $150,000.
pay her host (herself) a modest salary to work full time for a year (say... 40k?) and spend the rest on equipment editing and maybe paying a cameraman for 7-10 episodes. 150k is a shoestring budget if she chooses to make a real documentary series and get paid.
I feel like people who look at kickstarters forget that STAFF HAS TO GET PAID. I mean, plenty of people do it for free out of passion, but if many people were to quit their job to work on a project like a game or a video series fulltime they would be homeless without a salary from their funding. It's part of the budget.
Now she could actually travel to different studios, see what they have to say about the different kind of characters, meet the women that work there. The budget would allow for it.
I simply don't have time to sit down and hear rants anymore, we get it, everyone's an angry smuck, I'm angry, she's angry, children are angry, animals are angry, we have angry food, we have angry showers and we have angry sex.
So uh, I treat any lady I meet like... anyone else I'd treat, but obviously something is wrong with me since I really don't see an issue with anything she brings up, nor would I see issue with it if it were reversed..
Does that make me a bad person?
I won't support her Kickstarter since she has more than enough, I'd rather give it to something that I feel actually matters, like this.
So uh, I treat any lady I meet like... anyone else I'd treat, but obviously something is wrong with me since I really don't see an issue with anything she brings up, nor would I see issue with it if it were reversed..
Does that make me a bad person?
I won't support her Kickstarter since she has more than enough, I'd rather give it to something that I feel actually matters, like this.
If you don't see any sexism in society or problems with the treatment of women in games, but you do think that false rape accusations are an important issue, then yes, you are indeed a bad person.
If you don't see any sexism in society or problems with the treatment of women in games, but you do think that false rape accusations are an important issue, then yes, you are indeed a bad person.
I see sexism in society and I am against it, videogames and movies are their own realm and everything they do falls under artistic license for me, so I don't care about it.
I specifically said I don't see an issue with what SHE brings up, I didn't say I don't see an issue with sexism.
And to me, being falsely accused of and imprisoned for rape will always be way worse than someone digging too deep into Art to offend themselves.
Every time I see this thread, I get excited thinking it is actually about tropes in videogames. Instead, it's just about tropes that can be associated with sexism, or the life of this specific youtuber. Meh.
My wife would laugh me out of the kitchen if I told her I was upset about women being unfairly portrayed in video games and how there really should be more diversity in female characters.
Forgive me if I find it hard to get worked up about tropes in videogames in a world full of genocide, poverty, and suffering.
My wife would laugh me out of the kitchen if I told her I was upset about women being unfairly portrayed in video games and how there really should be more diversity in female characters.
Forgive me if I find it hard to get worked up about tropes in videogames in a world full of genocide, poverty, and suffering.
I really fail to see the big picture out of this, 14 pages of this almost meaningless topic, this is entertainment we're doing here!
I can see why some people can be upset by the fact that some women are portrayed as "demeaning" in both games and movie, but for each of those movies and games, there's another movie or game where females are also heroes, main characters or lead characters, extremely athletic, extremely intelligent, etc.
Although I don't see a point in all this, I can respect the people that do care, and would like to live in a perfectly balanced world, well... keep dreaming.
My wife would laugh me _out of the kitchen_ if I told her I was upset about women being unfairly portrayed in video games and how there really should be more diversity in female characters.
Forgive me if I find it hard to get worked up about tropes in videogames in a world full of genocide, poverty, and suffering.
Uh oh, you're in for a ride now
But seriously though, saying it's not a problem at all is just like saying ALL those characters are a problem, no better at all.
I think the issue is that 90% of female tropes are demeaning, were they to be more balanced there wouldn't be an issue.
I'm not sure that this is the case though. There are plenty of examples of strong female characters in video games, from now all the way back through the 90s. Yes, there are examples of potentially sexist female tropes in quite a number of games, but I don't really think you could call it the majority, let alone '90%'. Just take a look at the Wiki entry for last year's releases, then pick out the ones with strong female characters (leading or otherwise), versus those that have no real female characters, versus those that have those tropes that are so commonly discussed. You'll find there aren't that many of the latter, doubly so amongst Western developers.
Yes, but male tropes are considerably more common. Last year saw BulletStorm (which ironically has a strong female leading character surrounded by some of the worst male characters we've seen since Gears of War) and Duke Nukem, amongst other examples.
Racial stereotypes are far more of a problem than female tropes in games, by a long shot. How many games feature only white characters? How many of those that feature black characters have a singular 'token black guy' NPC in your story 'team'? How many of those games have Middle Eastern characters that aren't evil terrorists or unamed assailants to be shot at?
The problem isn't female charatcers in games. The problem is characters in games as a whole.
My wife would laugh me out of the kitchen if I told her I was upset about women being unfairly portrayed in video games and how there really should be more diversity in female characters.
Forgive me if I find it hard to get worked up about tropes in videogames in a world full of genocide, poverty, and suffering.
How much are you doing to combat genocide and poverty then?
Yes, but male tropes are considerably more common. Last year saw BulletStorm (which ironically has a strong female leading character surrounded by some of the worst male characters we've seen since Gears of War) and Duke Nukem, amongst other examples.
Racial stereotypes are far more of a problem than female tropes in games, by a long shot. How many games feature only white characters? How many of those that feature black characters have a singular 'token black guy' NPC in your story 'team'? How many of those games have Middle Eastern characters that aren't evil terrorists or unamed assailants to be shot at?
The problem isn't female charatcers in games. The problem is characters in games as a whole.
If you want to go that broad then yeah, characters in general need to be more inclusive. To be clear I'd have no issue with alot of the tropes if they're werent a predominant form or representation.
How much are you doing to combat genocide and poverty then?
I'm starting at square one by ensuring that my family will not suffer either.
I'm not blindly throwing my money at every Kony2012 that comes around but we donate money and time to help those in need in our community.
As for genocide, it's an ugly human trait that has surfaced time and again through out history. I'm not sure mankind will ever overcome animalistic barbarity but we can hope. All I can do is raise my son to think for his self, to have integrity, compassion, and morals.
I'm pretty sure bulletstorm had AWESOME male characters, and was a (silly) story about friendship and overcoming your friends' mistakes... Where is the negative stereotype of men? The idiot-savant reckless genius drunkard, or the responsible, frustrated cyborg? The ONLY negative stereotype afaik in that game was the racist, genocidal, selfish, guy with the southern accent, and he was the villain in a cast with a bunch of redeemable men. (I agree with you that the girl was awesome, though)
There are plenty of male characters that LOOK cliche, as in, the art design shows a standard, musclebound dude, but very few actually have negative stereotypes in characterization.
Gears, too -- what exactly was degrading to men about anything in that game? I saw a bunch of (clumsily written) strong, smart men who controlled their destinies.
Well for one they're all inhuman muscle monsters that would look at home in a prehistoric cave skinning their day's kill. Make those exact same characters women and make the same negative visual changes and you'll end up with... girls with their tits out, because that's how cliches work. The strongest features are taken and exaggerated: Men are more muscular and testosterone fueled, and women are sexier. Only some people have tunnel vision and get bent out of shape about female representation only.
Visual representations aren't really a big deal in the scheme of things at ALL. Can't speak for ben, but i've been talking 100% about characterization, who cares how people look?
Additionally, as an aside: Big, muscular men represent peak athletic ability for men. It's a sign of power and physical health. Big tits are not the same thing. Nobody should be offended by women who look like this or men who look like http://newspaper.li/static/429b6fae33cb9d38d5bfd3e4053e9b14.jpg -- that's just how humans look at peak performance.
After seeing this blow up all over the internet I finally decided to watch some of her videos. While she does raise some very good points, she really makes these hard to watch at points. Especially her talk about the "Muse." I am well aware that my wife is not around simply for the reason of inspiring me, but you know what; she does. She has moved cross country for me twice, has stood by me as I tried to get into my career and if I ever was in the position to dedicate something to her I would because she has inspired me to be better than I was.
While many of these tropes are common and problematic in the industry I can't help but feel that many are "eye of the beholder" scenarios. Some people get bent out of shape while others accept and love them for what they are.
My wife is an avid gamer and she loves Juliet Starling and Lollipop Chainsaw. She pre-ordered it within the week it was announced and has spent the last few days playing the hell out of it and I am sure that just burns the hell out of some people. One of her favorite games from years ago was "Rumble Roses," an all female wrestling game. My wife has her own views and opinions on what she likes and what offends her, to which there is plenty. While she might agree with numerous points that Anita makes I feel there is plenty she would raise an eyebrow at.
Bringing awareness to tropes is important. Making sure they are not overused and sensationalized is important. We have 8+ pages of discussion that would not have been made before, so I suppose that is a healthy start.
The best thing about Bulletstorm was how it portrayed men as saveges that loved killing, got scores for killing and engaged in cannibalism and severly violent behaviour. While the only woman in the entire game, was strong, intelligent, independent and by comparison to the rest of the men of the game: Normal.
BRB STARTING YOUTUBE CHANNEL WHERE I TAKE APART AND OVERANALYZE THIS SHIT, GIVE ME $150000 PLEZ.
Visual representations aren't really a big deal in the scheme of things at ALL. Can't speak for ben, but i've been talking 100% about characterization, who cares how people look?
Every time feminism and games come up there's invariably the discussion about oversexualization of women, so it is an issue. I'd say it's an important one too.
Additionally, as an aside: Big, muscular men represent peak athletic ability for men. It's a sign of power and physical health. Big tits are not the same thing. Nobody should be offended by women who look like this or men who look like http://newspaper.li/static/429b6fae33cb9d38d5bfd3e4053e9b14.jpg -- that's just how humans look at peak performance.
I would argue that in general the aim in art is to present things near to perfection" In cliche speak this is taking general characteristics and enhancing the most obvious ones that differentiate the sexes. Sexual characteristics are one major factor, and in that case men become big and powerful since our muscles are physiologically related to masculinity (testosterone is the male hormone and it builds muscle). Women don't get cliched as athletic and muscular because it's simply not a primary female trait. Estrogen leads to feminization and reproductive function. So women become more feminine rather than stronger.
I'm sure that would send some people into fits, but it's true, and it's true across cultures and across time. Men have almost entirely been sexualized based on physical fitness to one degree or another, while women's sexualization has been based on the characteristics of estrogen: breasts, hips, feminine face. And when you look at the more prominent deviations, it's related to fat and fertility. And just as visual cliches are so deeply tied to our physiology and psychology, so are our storytelling cliches. "Women die to drive the plot, boo-hoo." Well, what can induce as much rage as a threat to a loved one? Knowing that it is such a powerful and completely realistic motivator, why is it not acceptable to use it? And if you flip it around, it's still not good enough. If Princess Peach had to rescue Mario it would be perfectly valid, yet there would be complaints that she's still doing something because of a man.
Well, that's life for most people, isn't it? Find a partner then take shit for them. I'm not going to be too upset about that if it makes for a good story.
I see sexism in society and I am against it, videogames and movies are their own realm and everything they do falls under artistic license for me, so I don't care about it.
I specifically said I don't see an issue with what SHE brings up, I didn't say I don't see an issue with sexism.
And to me, being falsely accused of and imprisoned for rape will always be way worse than someone digging too deep into Art to offend themselves.
Well said. Other people's art shouldn't be dictated by others' beliefs even if it's offensive, other wise it's not art. It's just repressed expression. Freedom of speech, Yeeeaaaaah!
If you guys don't care why do you keep posting in the thread? there are tons of threads i don't give a shit about on polycount. like the omg i got a job at a shitty company whose metacritic average is 32, or i had an ugly baby with my fat wife, or what crappy school should i goto and waste money not learning shit about games, or how much money do you make, or Texas polycount meetup (i don't even fucking live in Texas).
i usually just don't post in them, i don't even click on them, its a pretty cool tip for not reading shit you don't care about.
i am sure someone cares about that stupid shit, and i am okay with that. its pretty easy to just not read. while i don't have a lot to say in this thread i think its an important discussion, and i enjoy reading it. if you don't care, why waste everyone's time by being a troll.
If you guys don't care why do you keep posting in the thread? there are tons of threads i don't give a shit about on polycount. like the omg i got a job at a shitty company whose metacritic average is 32, or i had an ugly baby with my fat wife, or what crappy school should i goto and waste money not learning shit about games, or how much money do you make, or Texas polycount meetup (i don't even fucking live in Texas).
i usually just don't post in them, i don't even click on them, its a pretty cool tip for not reading shit you don't care about.
i am sure someone cares about that stupid shit, and i am okay with that. its pretty easy to just not read. while i don't have a lot to say in this thread i think its an important discussion, and i enjoy reading it. if you don't care, why waste everyone's time by being a troll.
Because I will shut this thread down if it becomes overly negative. It seems to be heading that way. So I post my head in here to make sure people are aware.
All the threads you mentioned may not be the most important threads, but they help build community.
Threads where people begin to argue do not.
I choose to ignore threads like this too, but as a mod, I've been pointed to this thread several times already by others that feel it's having a negative impact. I have chosen to not close it just yet, but the past couple pages have done little to make me feel good about the thread's direction.
To be honest, I'd say your posts amongst certain others are the lower points in this thread. They detract from what is otherwise a healthy and slightly argumentitive discussion.
It's not heading in a negative direction, people just disagree. This is the nature of any subject like this as a whole and is to be expected. After 14 pages it hasn't degenerated into anything resembling flaming and I don't expect it to yet.
If you guys don't care why do you keep posting in the thread? there are tons of threads i don't give a shit about on polycount. like the omg i got a job at a shitty company whose metacritic average is 32, or i had an ugly baby with my fat wife, or what crappy school should i goto and waste money not learning shit about games, or how much money do you make, or Texas polycount meetup (i don't even fucking live in Texas).
i usually just don't post in them, i don't even click on them, its a pretty cool tip for not reading shit you don't care about.
i am sure someone cares about that stupid shit, and i am okay with that. its pretty easy to just not read. while i don't have a lot to say in this thread i think its an important discussion, and i enjoy reading it. if you don't care, why waste everyone's time by being a troll.
yeah, what the hell. Its helped me to firm my views on the subject, and its been fairly civil.
It's not heading in a negative direction, people just disagree. This is the nature of any subject like this as a whole and is to be expected. After 14 pages it hasn't degenerated into anything resembling flaming and I don't expect it to yet.
Yeah disagreeng and discussing is healthy -- whereas saying 'i dont care [about how other human beings feel]' or 'i dont care [about creative media]' and posting silly images is obnoxious, petty trolling.
All the women i hang out with would appreciate something like lollipop chainsaw, or bayonetta, or what have you, I definitely think they're bad examples... But in the greater context, it doesnt surprise me that someone like kate beaton would see it and say yuck.
Wonder how long it will be until people just group themselves as "people" or "human".
I feel like this is somewhat relevent but perhaps i'm naive as i myself am not a member of a minority but at the same time i dont really distinguish between anything... people are people.
also. i would like to add that after watching most of her videos, it is obvious to me that she hates everything. Maybe she should just write a book or 8 and school us all in how woman should be written into stories instead of telling us to do it for her. ide love a study guide on what to do/ not do. im watching these videos and am taking note of these "tropes" and maybe ill produce the male counter parts. like a man that seduces woman and eats them... or wait.. probably been done before... just like like everything else
....VAMPIRES.. :cough: cough:
Last year saw BulletStorm (which ironically has a strong female leading character surrounded by some of the worst male characters we've seen since Gears of War)
I agree with you that the girl was awesome, though
While the only woman in the entire game, was strong, intelligent, independent
....what? Were we playing the same game?
The first half of the game Trishka is hostile, loudmouthed, irrational nutjob who does nothing but yell profanity while ishi is totally apathetic and grayson is the voice of reason. Some of the most inane, witless, and unimaginative shit in the entire game comes out of this womans mouth, "I WILL KILL YOUR DICKS!"
Ishi keeps beating her every time she does something he doesn't like, when you solve the puzzle half way through the game grayson asks her to forgive him for it because 'he's had a rough time' and shes just like "okay I'll try"
She ends up betraying grayson/ishi early on and in contrast when the male lead is given the option later in the game to leave her behind after she falls into a hole (...really?) and is knocked unconscious he opts to go get her.
The game tries to imply she's a skilled soldier with things that happen outside the player interaction, shes beating the shit out of dudes when you show up to rescue her, after falling off the cliff she claims to have survived by catching a power line on the way down... But as soon as there's a major plot point she's inexplicably stupid and incompetent.
Every time they meet up with the villian she's outsmarted by him, in the first scenario he casually pushes her over a cliff (?????) then at the end of the game, just when you think her psychotic emotional breaks are over she relapses into ANGRY IRRATIONAL WOMAN when the villian tells her the lead character was given the order to kill her father. She turns her gun on him and the men are now in the role of trying calm her down while the villian uses the opening to knock them all down, killing Ishi shortly after.
Trishka is: Dumb, hostile, irrational, overly emotional, and weaker than all the main characters without any of the sense of self control or discipline that the other characters have.
Is this seriously what an awesome strong female character looks like?
The first half of the game Trishka is hostile, loudmouthed, irrational nutjob who does nothing but yell profanity while ishi is totally apathetic and grayson is the voice of reason. Some of the most inane, witless, and unimaginative shit in the entire game comes out of this womans mouth, "I WILL KILL YOUR DICKS!"
Ishi keeps beating her every time she does something he doesn't like, when you solve the puzzle half way through the game grayson asks her to forgive him for it because 'he's had a rough time' and shes just like "okay I'll try"
She ends up betraying grayson/ishi early on and in contrast when the male lead is given the option later in the game to leave her behind after she falls into a hole (...really?) and is knocked unconscious he opts to go get her.
The game tries to imply she's a skilled soldier with things that happen outside the player interaction, shes beating the shit out of dudes when you show up to rescue her, after falling off the cliff she claims to have survived by catching a power line on the way down... But as soon as there's a major plot point she's inexplicably stupid and incompetent.
Every time they meet up with the villian she's outsmarted by him, in the first scenario he casually pushes her over a cliff (?????) then at the end of the game, just when you think her psychotic emotional breaks are over she relapses into ANGRY IRRATIONAL WOMAN when the villian tells her the lead character was given the order to kill her father. She turns her gun on him and the men are now in the role of trying calm her down while the villian uses the opening to knock them all down, killing Ishi shortly after.
Trishka is: Dumb, hostile, irrational, overly emotional, and weaker than all the main characters without any of the sense of self control or discipline that the other characters have.
Is this seriously what an awesome strong female character looks like?
Holy shit I should play the game again, I was probably not noting down things like this or paying too much attention to the story to notice. All I noticed were the male characters being idiotic as hell and the 1 woman in the game not being so.
Also more ot:
People keep bringing up Beyond Good and Evil as a game with a strong female protagonist, but is it REALLY a good example of that? Didn't that game have a mission where you had to rescue her? And she depends on others for progression (men give her money and build her vehicles for her etc) oh and she takes care of orphans, pretty cliche "mother" stuff there right?
Just wondering because that game is often held up as one of the "good" ones, so is Alyx Vance, but even Alyx gets wounded and requires rescue, so I guess both characters are awful cliche tropes right?
Replies
[ame="
Knowing women, she's probably going to buy lots of shoes and purses. I hope she has a man to help her manage all that money.
pay her host (herself) a modest salary to work full time for a year (say... 40k?) and spend the rest on equipment editing and maybe paying a cameraman for 7-10 episodes. 150k is a shoestring budget if she chooses to make a real documentary series and get paid.
I feel like people who look at kickstarters forget that STAFF HAS TO GET PAID. I mean, plenty of people do it for free out of passion, but if many people were to quit their job to work on a project like a game or a video series fulltime they would be homeless without a salary from their funding. It's part of the budget.
Why the cynicism? She hasn't posted an update as to how the money's going to be directed - maybe save judgement until after it's broken down.
LOL!!!!! This is great.
Does that make me a bad person?
I won't support her Kickstarter since she has more than enough, I'd rather give it to something that I feel actually matters, like this.
__________
3d rendering/architectural rendering
made my day...
If you don't see any sexism in society or problems with the treatment of women in games, but you do think that false rape accusations are an important issue, then yes, you are indeed a bad person.
I specifically said I don't see an issue with what SHE brings up, I didn't say I don't see an issue with sexism.
And to me, being falsely accused of and imprisoned for rape will always be way worse than someone digging too deep into Art to offend themselves.
Forgive me if I find it hard to get worked up about tropes in videogames in a world full of genocide, poverty, and suffering.
This. Seriously.
We get it... we should feel bad, etc.
I really fail to see the big picture out of this, 14 pages of this almost meaningless topic, this is entertainment we're doing here!
I can see why some people can be upset by the fact that some women are portrayed as "demeaning" in both games and movie, but for each of those movies and games, there's another movie or game where females are also heroes, main characters or lead characters, extremely athletic, extremely intelligent, etc.
Although I don't see a point in all this, I can respect the people that do care, and would like to live in a perfectly balanced world, well... keep dreaming.
Uh oh, you're in for a ride now
But seriously though, saying it's not a problem at all is just like saying ALL those characters are a problem, no better at all.
What ever happened to reasonable middle-grounds?
I'm not sure that this is the case though. There are plenty of examples of strong female characters in video games, from now all the way back through the 90s. Yes, there are examples of potentially sexist female tropes in quite a number of games, but I don't really think you could call it the majority, let alone '90%'. Just take a look at the Wiki entry for last year's releases, then pick out the ones with strong female characters (leading or otherwise), versus those that have no real female characters, versus those that have those tropes that are so commonly discussed. You'll find there aren't that many of the latter, doubly so amongst Western developers.
video games are, but the wider subject isn't
ambershee: perhaps 90% is too broad, but its pretty common.
Racial stereotypes are far more of a problem than female tropes in games, by a long shot. How many games feature only white characters? How many of those that feature black characters have a singular 'token black guy' NPC in your story 'team'? How many of those games have Middle Eastern characters that aren't evil terrorists or unamed assailants to be shot at?
The problem isn't female charatcers in games. The problem is characters in games as a whole.
How much are you doing to combat genocide and poverty then?
If you want to go that broad then yeah, characters in general need to be more inclusive. To be clear I'd have no issue with alot of the tropes if they're werent a predominant form or representation.
I'm starting at square one by ensuring that my family will not suffer either.
I'm not blindly throwing my money at every Kony2012 that comes around but we donate money and time to help those in need in our community.
As for genocide, it's an ugly human trait that has surfaced time and again through out history. I'm not sure mankind will ever overcome animalistic barbarity but we can hope. All I can do is raise my son to think for his self, to have integrity, compassion, and morals.
There are plenty of male characters that LOOK cliche, as in, the art design shows a standard, musclebound dude, but very few actually have negative stereotypes in characterization.
Gears, too -- what exactly was degrading to men about anything in that game? I saw a bunch of (clumsily written) strong, smart men who controlled their destinies.
We call these people feminists.
Additionally, as an aside: Big, muscular men represent peak athletic ability for men. It's a sign of power and physical health. Big tits are not the same thing. Nobody should be offended by women who look like this or men who look like http://newspaper.li/static/429b6fae33cb9d38d5bfd3e4053e9b14.jpg -- that's just how humans look at peak performance.
While many of these tropes are common and problematic in the industry I can't help but feel that many are "eye of the beholder" scenarios. Some people get bent out of shape while others accept and love them for what they are.
My wife is an avid gamer and she loves Juliet Starling and Lollipop Chainsaw. She pre-ordered it within the week it was announced and has spent the last few days playing the hell out of it and I am sure that just burns the hell out of some people. One of her favorite games from years ago was "Rumble Roses," an all female wrestling game. My wife has her own views and opinions on what she likes and what offends her, to which there is plenty. While she might agree with numerous points that Anita makes I feel there is plenty she would raise an eyebrow at.
Bringing awareness to tropes is important. Making sure they are not overused and sensationalized is important. We have 8+ pages of discussion that would not have been made before, so I suppose that is a healthy start.
BRB STARTING YOUTUBE CHANNEL WHERE I TAKE APART AND OVERANALYZE THIS SHIT, GIVE ME $150000 PLEZ.
Every time feminism and games come up there's invariably the discussion about oversexualization of women, so it is an issue. I'd say it's an important one too.
I would argue that in general the aim in art is to present things near to perfection" In cliche speak this is taking general characteristics and enhancing the most obvious ones that differentiate the sexes. Sexual characteristics are one major factor, and in that case men become big and powerful since our muscles are physiologically related to masculinity (testosterone is the male hormone and it builds muscle). Women don't get cliched as athletic and muscular because it's simply not a primary female trait. Estrogen leads to feminization and reproductive function. So women become more feminine rather than stronger.
I'm sure that would send some people into fits, but it's true, and it's true across cultures and across time. Men have almost entirely been sexualized based on physical fitness to one degree or another, while women's sexualization has been based on the characteristics of estrogen: breasts, hips, feminine face. And when you look at the more prominent deviations, it's related to fat and fertility. And just as visual cliches are so deeply tied to our physiology and psychology, so are our storytelling cliches. "Women die to drive the plot, boo-hoo." Well, what can induce as much rage as a threat to a loved one? Knowing that it is such a powerful and completely realistic motivator, why is it not acceptable to use it? And if you flip it around, it's still not good enough. If Princess Peach had to rescue Mario it would be perfectly valid, yet there would be complaints that she's still doing something because of a man.
Well, that's life for most people, isn't it? Find a partner then take shit for them. I'm not going to be too upset about that if it makes for a good story.
Well said. Other people's art shouldn't be dictated by others' beliefs even if it's offensive, other wise it's not art. It's just repressed expression. Freedom of speech, Yeeeaaaaah!
Yes please.
i usually just don't post in them, i don't even click on them, its a pretty cool tip for not reading shit you don't care about.
i am sure someone cares about that stupid shit, and i am okay with that. its pretty easy to just not read. while i don't have a lot to say in this thread i think its an important discussion, and i enjoy reading it. if you don't care, why waste everyone's time by being a troll.
Because I will shut this thread down if it becomes overly negative. It seems to be heading that way. So I post my head in here to make sure people are aware.
All the threads you mentioned may not be the most important threads, but they help build community.
Threads where people begin to argue do not.
I choose to ignore threads like this too, but as a mod, I've been pointed to this thread several times already by others that feel it's having a negative impact. I have chosen to not close it just yet, but the past couple pages have done little to make me feel good about the thread's direction.
Seriously though this is a topic that could/can/will be discussed for hrs or till the end of time which ever you prefer.
But I will see you guys back on the Art side of the forum. PEACE
To be honest, I'd say your posts amongst certain others are the lower points in this thread. They detract from what is otherwise a healthy and slightly argumentitive discussion.
It's not heading in a negative direction, people just disagree. This is the nature of any subject like this as a whole and is to be expected. After 14 pages it hasn't degenerated into anything resembling flaming and I don't expect it to yet.
Funnily enough, my other half also pre-ordered Lollipop Chainsaw; she adores it.
yeah, what the hell. Its helped me to firm my views on the subject, and its been fairly civil.
Which is why I haven't closed it.
All the women i hang out with would appreciate something like lollipop chainsaw, or bayonetta, or what have you, I definitely think they're bad examples... But in the greater context, it doesnt surprise me that someone like kate beaton would see it and say yuck.
wins debate.
also. i would like to add that after watching most of her videos, it is obvious to me that she hates everything. Maybe she should just write a book or 8 and school us all in how woman should be written into stories instead of telling us to do it for her. ide love a study guide on what to do/ not do. im watching these videos and am taking note of these "tropes" and maybe ill produce the male counter parts. like a man that seduces woman and eats them... or wait.. probably been done before... just like like everything else
....VAMPIRES.. :cough: cough:
....what? Were we playing the same game?
Ishi keeps beating her every time she does something he doesn't like, when you solve the puzzle half way through the game grayson asks her to forgive him for it because 'he's had a rough time' and shes just like "okay I'll try"
She ends up betraying grayson/ishi early on and in contrast when the male lead is given the option later in the game to leave her behind after she falls into a hole (...really?) and is knocked unconscious he opts to go get her.
The game tries to imply she's a skilled soldier with things that happen outside the player interaction, shes beating the shit out of dudes when you show up to rescue her, after falling off the cliff she claims to have survived by catching a power line on the way down... But as soon as there's a major plot point she's inexplicably stupid and incompetent.
Every time they meet up with the villian she's outsmarted by him, in the first scenario he casually pushes her over a cliff (?????) then at the end of the game, just when you think her psychotic emotional breaks are over she relapses into ANGRY IRRATIONAL WOMAN when the villian tells her the lead character was given the order to kill her father. She turns her gun on him and the men are now in the role of trying calm her down while the villian uses the opening to knock them all down, killing Ishi shortly after.
Trishka is: Dumb, hostile, irrational, overly emotional, and weaker than all the main characters without any of the sense of self control or discipline that the other characters have.
Is this seriously what an awesome strong female character looks like?
Also more ot:
People keep bringing up Beyond Good and Evil as a game with a strong female protagonist, but is it REALLY a good example of that? Didn't that game have a mission where you had to rescue her? And she depends on others for progression (men give her money and build her vehicles for her etc) oh and she takes care of orphans, pretty cliche "mother" stuff there right?
Just wondering because that game is often held up as one of the "good" ones, so is Alyx Vance, but even Alyx gets wounded and requires rescue, so I guess both characters are awful cliche tropes right?