Many of the girls tips are about surviving social situations or dealing with emotions embarrassment, keeping a secret, dealing with bullies. These are all probably more useful to kids than knowing how to survive quicksand, and tips for handling stardom are statistically more likely to be useful at some point than dealing with a T-Rex. So the issue here isnt that the boys guide is inherently more useful or smarter or better; probably all kids should be issued a guide to surviving Truth or Dare (also, dodgeball). But the clear gendering of the guides, with only girls getting tips about dealing with social interactions, emotions, and looks, while outdoorsy injury/natural disaster survival tips are sufficient for boys, illustrates broader assumptions about gender and how we construct femininity and masculinity.
While I do believe that the ideal setup is a traditional man/woman family with exposure to both sexes from an early age, there are just way too many people with mommy issues or deadbeat dads to pretend that it really matters. The quality of parenting is ultimately more important than the genitals mom and dad are packing.
Good parenting trumps any kind of biological parenting remains, but that's a big part of our movement away from what nature decided we should be and what we can be, we don't need two parents of different sexes, we don't need to murder each-other either.
The important thing is: don't automatically force equality on children, but don't automatically force them to play with gender-specific toys either, if a girl wants to play with space or pirate lego, let them, I know my sisters would, but that wouldn't stop them from going for the girly stuff either.
I can see the frustration though of a child who does want something out of the ordinary and seeing that stores go default.
That's symptomatic of the problem!
Do you seriously think children are immune to people's expectations? Their decisions are (at least partially) driven by what's expected from society and people around them. I know adult women who don't admit to certain interests or passions of theirs because other women/men in their lives wouldnt think it's appropriate -- and most 5 yearold girls ive met are WAY less independent and prepared to deal with being judged by others than 25 yearolds.
Shoes: "How to Handle Becoming Rich"!? I wish I had girl problems!
sure, the basic survival stuff should be taught to everybody.
and perhaps every kid should be taught that being shy is fucking impractical and won't get them anywhere.
However those books don't seem like actual educational materials.
i mean for christ's sake, "surviving a vampire attack"?
These seem like 'fun' stuff. Stuff that caters to typical -interests- of each gender.
And girls being usually interested in human interactions and emotions way more than boys are isn't just some kind of myth. i'd be bored to death if i tried to read a book full of 'girly' stuff as a kid.
If parents have a child that has interests different from stereotypical ones, that's fine.
i sure wish that they have no problem finding toys and books that cater to that without making the kid question her/his gender.
But gender specific books and toys definitely have their place and exist for a reason.
Do you seriously think children are immune to people's expectations? Their decisions are (at least partially) driven by what's expected from society and people around them. I know adult women who don't admit to certain interests or passions of theirs because other women/men in their lives wouldnt think it's appropriate -- and most 5 yearold girls ive met are WAY less independent and prepared to deal with being judged by others than 25 yearolds.
Shoes: "How to Handle Becoming Rich"!? I wish I had girl problems!
True, but that says something about the people rather than the products, we're never going to be able to change things unless we change ourselves, it starts with parents, who parent future parents.
i sure wish that they have no problem finding toys and books that cater to that without making the kid question her/his gender.
But gender specific books and toys definitely have their place and exist for a reason.
True, but that says something about the people rather than the products, we're never going to be able to change things unless we change ourselves, it starts with parents, who parent future parents.
Yeah for sure. I dont think anyone thinks products are some top down driving force that controls society... It's that the people from the ground up support and create this shit.
sure, the basic survival stuff should be taught to everybody.
and perhaps every kid should be taught that being shy is fucking impractical and won't get them anywhere.
However those books don't seem like actual educational materials.
i mean for christ's sake, "surviving a vampire attack"?
These seem like 'fun' stuff. Stuff that caters to typical -interests- of each gender.
And girls being usually interested in human interactions and emotions way more than boys are isn't just some kind of myth. i'd be bored to death if i tried to read a book full of 'girly' stuff as a kid.
If parents have a child that has interests different from stereotypical ones, that's fine.
i sure wish that they have no problem finding toys and books that cater to that without making the kid question her/his gender.
But gender specific books and toys definitely have their place and exist for a reason.
Yeah, it's for kids, it's supposed to be 'fun'. It's just an example that illustrates typical gender roles.
Most girls I've ever met are also 'bored to death' by 'girly' stuff. I would have begged my parents to buy me the 'boys only' book :P But the problem lies in the fact that people have a much harder time allowing boys to be into the 'girly' stuff. And that as a result, people tend to think the 'girly' stuff is somehow inferior.
They exist because gender roles exist. The only 'place' they have is with people who identify and relate to their own gender's assigned roles. There are many people who do not. A lot of the guys in this thread have said they know more girls who were/are "tomboys" (they like typical 'guy' stuff). There are just as many guys who identify with more of a typically feminine role but they have a much harder time being visible in society.
Shoes: "How to Handle Becoming Rich"!? I wish I had girl problems!
Haha if only that was an inherent 'problem' for girls :C :C
Interesting study which is relevant to the gay parent debate as well as the games debate. While it looks like lesbian parents are fine (in a middle/upper class setting anyways), it also shows that genders gravitate towards their traditional interests, bi-gender family or not. I'm sure society has a role to play, but girls will be girls and boys will be boys.
Which ties back into the cliches in video games being fundamentally human, if taken to grotesque extremes at time.
Interesting study which is relevant to the gay parent debate as well as the games debate. While it looks like lesbian parents are fine (in a middle/upper class setting anyways), it also shows that genders gravitate towards their traditional interests, bi-gender family or not. I'm sure society has a role to play, but girls will be girls and boys will be boys.
Which ties back into the cliches in video games being fundamentally human, if taken to grotesque extremes at time.
"Boys will be boys and girls will be girls" is a phrase that completely ignores whole groups of the human race and is pretty blatantly untrue. What about Transgendered people and Intersex?
And I really don't see how genders gravitating towards gender roles really proves anything except that uh, gender roles exist and have an effect on people?
*Edit: I didn't see the article mention anything about peers, which can have just as much of an effect on people as their parents.
The results of the current study raise several broader questions about the role of parents in the gender development of their children. Given that the adolescent boys with and without male role models did not differ in their masculine gender role traits, this finding challenges the notion that there are gender-specific behaviors that can be imparted only by mothers to daughters and by fathers to sons. The finding that the adolescent offspring of planned lesbian families do not vary in their gender role traits based on the presence of a meaningful male role model also suggests that parenting role behaviors may have shifted.
In many cultures, parental role behavior is now less constricted by gender than ever before. Many of todays fathers braid their childrens hair, prepare family meals, and supervise homework, while contemporary mothers coach their children in sports and help them with their science projects and career choices. Parents of both genders foster integrity, inquisitiveness, compassion, kindness, thoughtfulness, morality, and motivation in their children. Likewise, the ability to love, nurture, groom, teach, inspire, and guide children from infancy to adulthood is shared by mothers and fathers alike. Most of the NLLFS mothers consider good role modeling more a matter of character than gender.
I'm pretty sure this suggests the exact opposite, that 'gender roles' are merely a societal construct and have nothing to do with people's actual gender. Unless I'm missing something.
Guess it's up to interpretation since they're not explicitly clear about what they mean, but I'm reading it as "each gender developed and acted according to norms, regardless of parents".
And I really don't see how genders gravitating towards gender roles really proves anything except that uh, gender roles exist and have an effect on people?
And so when gender roles are used in story lines it should be perfectly normal, and not something to pick apart in a series of videos which target the common-sense just as much as the ludicrous.
For any girls who feel like society has made it difficult for you, I'd trade genders any day of the week (and not for some weird sexual reason).
Dead serious, btw.
You should do one of those "studies" where they make a white guy look black, or skinny person fat, or whatever they call those walk in someone else's shoe things.
And so when gender roles are used in story lines it should be perfectly normal, and not something to pick apart in a series of videos which target the common-sense just as much as the ludicrous.
But why shouldn't we pick apart gender roles? Just because the majority of the world thinks something is normal doesn't mean it's right. Why would any kind of social commentary promoting equality be a bad thing? I realize those videos aren't the best example because she's kind of reactionary, but the idea of a video series about female tropes in video games isn't inherently useless or bad.
I mean, I'm not personally against things like half naked girls in bikini armor. And I don't feel personally threatened by most female stereotypes in video games, but I also wouldn't mind more diversity in characters, and I know other people might not feel the same way as me.
Why would any kind of social commentary promoting equality be a bad thing?
Because you're not promoting equality. You're promoting sameness. And to me that's what's wrong with this whole thing.
If there was some sort of "No Girls Allowed" mentality in the video-game industry, I'd be right there with you. Equal-rights, etc. The fights to allow women in the military, or to get women equal pay, those all make sense.
But this is a fight to make women the same as men and men the same as women. But we just aren't the same. That seems like a silly thing to complain about, and I guess the only person you can file that complaint with is God/Flying Spaghetti Monster.
But being upset by some scantly clad pixels in a video-game has nothing to do with equality, and all to do with trivializing differences through sameness.
I realize those videos aren't the best example because she's kind of reactionary, but the idea of a video series about female tropes in video games isn't inherently useless or bad.
It kinda is. Cause it's either preaching to the choir, or else falls on deaf ears. If a guy designs some scantly-clad female character, obviously that person has no idea how to see things from a woman's perspective. That much should be obvious just because he's a dude, but some disagree with that.
At any case, the trend in general is a simple result of having a bunch of straight men create all this stuff. It comes out of ignorance, not malice. The solution to me seems to be to simply have more women in the industry, and in fact more diverse people, in every aspect of production. But trying to "educate the masses" over things that are irrelevant to them seems pointless to me.
We want diversity? Then we should get diversity. But we shouldn't try and convert people to be the same as other people. That's not equality, and not diversity.
I mean, I'm not personally against things like half naked girls in bikini armor. And I don't feel personally threatened by most female stereotypes in video games, but I also wouldn't mind more diversity in characters, and I know other people might not feel the same way as me.
Exactly. It should be about more diversity. Who does it hurt really that you have half naked elves? If anything I'd say what we need is more half-naked dudes too. We just need more of everything.
Unfortunately I doubt this will change much until we have more women in the industry with power, and that will be slow coming considering how society does its best to fit genders into their obsolete historical roles, guys are strong soldiers, girls are fragile princesses (seriously, go to a toy store for example and compare the toys, it's disgusting).
While true, I think there's a bit more to it than that. It seems to me to be a matter of what do people want to see. And judging by the sheer amount of scantly-clad art created by women that I see out there, I would say that women want to see that kind of stuff just the same as men do. But on the flip side, there's an untapped market here of the equally-represented, but not the same as men, female character that I bet would interest men as well as lots of women.
So I don't think it's as simple as society being too closed-minded, or there being too much of the half-naked elf chick in video-games. It's more about diversity in general.
If there was some sort of "No Girls Allowed" mentality in the video-game industry, I'd be right there with you. Equal-rights, etc. The fights to allow women in the military, or to get women equal pay, those all make sense.
But this is a fight to make women the same as men and men the same as women.
There's nothing explicitly stated, to be sure, but what many women are referring to is not always an overt 'let's put lady characters in revealing tops', but something more insidious and difficult to pin down. Like an undercurrent of discomfort in certain situations, a low frequency feeling of being out of place. Not always, and certainly, positively not at all studios or conventions, but too often to be considered really opening and welcoming.
I've heard developers mentioning they didn't model female characters because it would mean creating an additional rig, or that someone didn't like working with women because they were lazy. Character creation systems with items like "slutty" skirts, and I've had to stop looking at Gamasutra comments on articles dealing with gendered issues. All things that seem kind of brush-offable on their own, but a little demoralizing if it's what you're used to seeing on a regular basis.
While I can't agree with you on the characters with slutty skirts thing, the rest does make sense. Maybe I'm a bit underwhelmed because my studio has almost the same amount of girls in the art department as guys (though no character artist, I looked I swear, but couldn't find one to hire last time). So yeah, that stuff does make sense.
But it seems really far from what was talked about in the videos. And very far from the complaints about how Bill wanting to protect Sookie in True Blood is sexism.
While I can't agree with you on the characters with slutty skirts thing, the rest does make sense.
It's not that the clothing design itself was an issue in the least, just the label on it. Tag it a mini skirt, or a micro skirt, or anything that's not such an abrasive, weirdly judgey word.
Nurture versus Nature seems to be the core of your stance. That there is at some point a Nature difference that separates Male and Female behavior. So at some level certain stereotypes about male/female behavior/reaction are true. Correct?
To say this you need an absolute split versus just what one categorizes. What are you using as the absolute? It cannot be genes as that does not always equate a seeming male or female (quick one is the one where a male cant produce any testosterone and thus gains female characteristics in the womb.)
Since male and female can be in a large spectrum of behaviors. While its not genes as it is the chemical balances of things like Testosterone or Estrogen that also influence behavior. A point though on these is there is no set amount a person can have. One man can produce Estrogen more than the next or vice versa with a woman and testosterone.
In short any classification is something a society and or a person decides with these roles. There can be no real classification of gender roles scientifically because it lacks an absolute as a basis. Science requires that any test comes up with the same results each time.
I've heard developers mentioning they didn't model female characters because it would mean creating an additional rig, or that someone didn't like working with women because they were lazy. Character creation systems with items like 'slutty' skirts, and I've had to stop looking at Gamasutra comments on articles dealing with gendered issues. All things that seem kind of brush-offable on their own, but a little demoralizing if it's what you're used to seeing on a regular basis.
Thank you for that post! It is exactly it. From there I think there are two distincts attitudes one can take : either complaining and telling these developers that they are "doing it wrong", or, taking a proactive stance and actively working on showing how things can be "done right". If it is successful, it sure will spread.
In our field these things are very visual and obvious, so I think this is a good point of entry for artists to tackle. I think this can achieve great things. Spreading the word about bad tropes can get people talking, and that's great ... but female (and male) artists getting their hands dirty and actually creating new stuff can achieve much more than that, and since we are part of an artists community I think it is more productive to focus on that aspect of the question since we can actually contribute to it!
I don't think Brave is the movie it is because someone got angry at Pixar telling them that they have been doing things wrong. Rather : they are good folks, have a talented woman in their ranks, and she gets to direct a project. It certainly will be just as awesome as their previous ones, it features a strong female lead that many (not all!) girls will love, it will be successful just like all their movies and audiences will want more of that kind of stories featuring a modern female lead. (Even tho I think what people are universally attracted to is the quality of the storytelling itself and not the gender of the lead, but thats another subject.)
That's all well and good, but you're all three glossing over the simple fact that there haven't been any physically ugly but positively portrayed and important female characters in games. Why do you think that is?
Why is it ok to have ugly men as heroes in games, but not ugly women? Whose tastes would that offend?
What about Lavern from Day of the tentacle;
I don't find her attractive, but I did like her. She is weird but original as a character...
I do agree with your point though, it's a shame that many people nowadays think that female characters need to look good in order to be in a game.
pior, people like you and eld are what keep me here... and keep me slightly sane.
I cant word my arguments without my disdain for pretty much everyone seeping through, so its always nice when people more eloquent than I drop knowledge bombs.
But why shouldn't we pick apart gender roles? Just because the majority of the world thinks something is normal doesn't mean it's right. Why would any kind of social commentary promoting equality be a bad thing? I realize those videos aren't the best example because she's kind of reactionary, but the idea of a video series about female tropes in video games isn't inherently useless or bad.
Well, that's my point and my gripe with this thread. Discussion is healthy, and there's much to discuss, but giving her 150k for axe-grinding isn't the kind of discussion that's needed.
There can be no real classification of gender roles scientifically because it lacks an absolute as a basis. Science requires that any test comes up with the same results each time.
I'm fairly certain that in the future science will derive a set list of natural gender roles that directly relate to human biology and are valid for the average demographic. Animals naturally have their gender roles with limited society, and humans must be the same. With our cumulative culture and societal progress the influence of these gender roles fades though, to the point that some day it might not matter at all other than procreation (if we aren't looking at a Brave New World, future at least).
Thank you for that post! It is exactly it. From there I think there are two distincts attitudes one can take : either complaining and telling these developers that they are "doing it wrong", or, taking a proactive stance and actively working on showing how things can be "done right". If it is successful, it sure will spread.
Identifying common flaws isn't getting angry, and is no less constructive than positive suggestions. If you see lots of beginners making the pectoral insertion to the deltoid done wrong, an instructional tutorial on how to do it right, along with common ways to identify when you're doing it wrong, would be quite helpful. Plus she hasn't only made videos on what's done wrong, she is consistently identifying positive examples, and part of the kickstarter is a video on well done characters.
Already plenty of indie developers have admitted to following one of these tropes without knowing it, and revisiting their female portrayals because of Anita's existing videos and the attention all of this has gotten.
Plus you kind of glossed over her point, which was that while there aren't any De Jure "no girls allowed" laws/rules/attitudes, there is actually a De Facto environment at every stage of development in life that dissuades women from certain fields, including very much videogames.
biggest problem i see here, is that all of the "activists" out there fail to recognise some very simple basics:
1. you're belief (and it is a belief) is based on your own opinion on how things should work. you are not everybody, and not everybody thinks like you do.
2. for every one of you that want things to change, that think it's stupid that all girls toys are pink, that not all heroes should be action heroes etc. there are probably 5x the number of people who actually like it that way.
3. it wouldn't be called popular culture, if it wasn't popular. there's a reason things are marketed or created in the way that they are, it's because they appeal to THE LARGEST group of people.
you need to understand that, like it or not, you're in the minority. if you want things to change, you have to do one of two things:
1. change the world.
2. make your own media that you and likeminded people will enjoy.
but as it stands, you're doing neither. Anita's videos are "okay", but they're not really going to do anything, grats to her on making a fucking easy 150k to be honest... she's not going to give it away, she's going to keep it and invest it in... well, making her life easier, and i don't blame her. bunch of morons threw money at her haha.
and to make matters worse, you're ALL in the position to actually make positive change. sure you might not be able to go to your bosses/directors and ask them if they can change x or y in the game you're currently making. but there is NOTHING stopping you from grouping up with other like minded people and going the indie route in your spare time.
you simply don't want it enough that you'll put that effort in.
/endgeneralisation
*the contents of this post are objective opinions and may or may not reflect my actual beliefs. i'm playing devils advocate, deal with it.
It was a really silly screed on your part. I don't know what your country's constitution says, but most modern democracies have built into their founding documents the protection of minorities against the will of the majority.
Not that your claim that the majority likes it this way holds any water. 47% of gamers are female, and society is basically 50/50 female/male.
If we followed your line of reasoning, it would be up to gay people to either change legislation by themselves, or form a new country with gay rights. Or back during suffrage, all women should fight alone for the right to vote, or make their own all female country where they can vote. If you apply your rule-set to any other issue of rights you can see just how ridiculous an appeal to the status quo is. And isn't it convenient that your implication that "basically everyone likes it how it is" panders to your own personal tastes?
you absolutely have the right to go and make whatever media you like. GO AND DO IT. but your opinion is YOUR OPINION, not your right. it's everyones right to watch/read/play whatever they want and not be subjected to things they don't. it's also their right to create whatever they want, and have it idolized or ignored as per the viewers wishes.
the problem is that you want everything to change regardless of what viewers (generalization) want. you're literally refusing to follow the simple reasoning of: if it wasn't the most popular thing, it would have changed already! if people (generally) wanted what you want, you'd already have it.
but as usual ben, you're all talk. you're doing NOTHING to change ANYTHING. i'm not saying everyone likes it how it is at all. some people don't. it's up to those people to make it the way they want.
do you believe that ALL those female gamers want the change that you want? are you really that arrogant?
this conversation has gotten progressively worse since the start of the thread for the pure and simple fact that you only seem to want to deal in absolutes, where you are right and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. i'm more than happy to concede and say things could/should change. but i don't care enough to do it.
and since you're only sat here typing away instead of making the game you want to see... i guess you don't REALLY care that much either.
anyone can hold up a sign or a banner man, ANYONE. it takes someone with real drive, motivation, and will power to actually make the changes they want.
also: wtf does australia have to do with anything?
Yeah... not so much. External control and dissent is necessary to a degree, otherwise the lowest common denominator will get all of the attention, just as is happening right now in games an culture in general.
The blacks in america anaology is awesome, just not the slavery part -- womens suffrage happened, this isnt about ending 'slavery', it's analogous to ending racism.
Gir, im not sure what you believe or what bubble you live in, but:
Do you realize that 'don't treat black people like shit' and 'dont treat gay people like shit' were once (recently) unpopular opinions?
Do you understand that those opinions were changed by people taking about the subject, not by anyone fighting in the streets?
Also people DID put their money where their mouths are, they gave that chick 150k, quit being an asshole and trying to dismiss all discussion as irrelevant. If you want to either justify or be completely ignorant of sexism, that's your right, but dont try to stomp all over the adults discussing it. Dfacto brings up sensible counterpoints, whereas you're jamming your fingers in your ears and saying "people WANT to degrade women!"
The objective of just talking about it is to create social change. I'm not sure if you realize, but society is what you and me are forming right now by discussing this. Society is the realm of human interaction. It's constructed, molded, and altered through people talking.
There are many great points in this thread but I feel like people are dialing in most their ideas at an 11. While some of the comments are a little sensationalized, at their core they still bring out great points. I've been talking to my wife about this thread and topic in general and while what I had mentioned about her before is true, she gave me quite a bit of her thoughts which surprised me. She told me that, "Even though I don't agree with everything she (Anita) says, it's nice that someone is getting exposure to the other side of the story." I think there is alot in this thread that is a bunch of guys talking about what they think girls think of tropes and fair representation in games.
The only thing I can think to say is just talk to them about it. There are many things that are offensive to my wife that I didn't think would be and there is plenty on the other side of the coin that I thought may offend her but doesn't. I wouldn't have known unless this thread prompted me to ask.
I have to agree with Gir though about putting the money where your mouth is (although not specifically aimed at Ben, but to developers in general.) We live in a time of indie and kickstarter. Large companies may be slow to move on changing tropes and gender roles in games as they will be more apt to look at cost/gains in the market place as opposed to "making a daring statement." There is nothing to stop you from making that game. And if enough people agree with the vision you have you can get it fully crowd funded. I'm not saying it's simple as pie, but we are entering what could be a renaissance of new ideas for games. If you want to change the way people see things, I honestly can't think of a better time.
It's not that the clothing design itself was an issue in the least, just the label on it. Tag it a mini skirt, or a micro skirt, or anything that's not such an abrasive, weirdly judgey word.
Oh I see what you're saying, yeah, that makes sense. The only time something like that would fly in my book is if the game design, for whatever reason, called for a 'slutty' option. I can't imagine what that situation is, but I suppose it could exist, and in that case it better be an option for the male characters as well.
She told me that, "Even though I don't agree with everything she (Anita) says, it's nice that someone is getting exposure to the other side of the story." I think there is alot in this thread that is a bunch of guys talking about what they think girls think of tropes and fair representation in games.
The only thing I can think to say is just talk to them about it. There are many things that are offensive to my wife that I didn't think would be and there is plenty on the other side of the coin that I thought may offend her but doesn't. I wouldn't have known unless this thread prompted me to ask.
Pretty much the experience I had, which is why I partially agree with Anita, It was mainly down to lots of good things and real issues and other things my wife would roll her eyes at. My wife used to be a feminist, but eventually "stepped back" to being an equalist, and I know that is what feminism is supposed to be about, but my wife got to encounter lots of people with even more extreme opinions and never felt comfortable in that situation, far more so by the people who were feminists.
And then there were the anti-feminists, a male version of extreme-feminists, with the belief that the world of females conspires in an unjust way towards them.
Different females will think different things, and enjoy different characters, but everyone wants to be treated equally even if they might be different from one-another.
Everyone should have the same opportunities.
It's mainly when I see places like revenge labs becoming a target for unintentionally having troped the shit out of their game, they're to blame for other males seeing females as lesser beings because of their game, even though that was never the purpose.
Nurture versus Nature seems to be the core of your stance. That there is at some point a Nature difference that separates Male and Female behavior. So at some level certain stereotypes about male/female behavior/reaction are true. Correct?
No, not quite. I'm saying there are masculine and feminine behaviors. But those behaviors aren't exclusive to males or females, just predominant in those groups.
So it doesn't make sense to me to criticize it as "It's BS that they always associate feminine behavior with females in entertainment". Well, yeah, they're females. What doesn't make sense is that it's exclusively that way, not that it exists in the first place. A more valid argument (in my opinion) would be "It's BS that there isn't enough feminine behavior on males, and masculine behavior on females".
But saying "Mario is fat and ugly, how come we don't have a female character that's fat and ugly" makes zero sense to me.
Because you're not promoting equality. You're promoting sameness. And to me that's what's wrong with this whole thing.
If there was some sort of "No Girls Allowed" mentality in the video-game industry, I'd be right there with you. Equal-rights, etc. The fights to allow women in the military, or to get women equal pay, those all make sense.
But this is a fight to make women the same as men and men the same as women. But we just aren't the same. That seems like a silly thing to complain about, and I guess the only person you can file that complaint with is God/Flying Spaghetti Monster.
But being upset by some scantly clad pixels in a video-game has nothing to do with equality, and all to do with trivializing differences through sameness.
I don't think I've said anywhere that I think they should be portrayed the same. All people are different. And men and women can both range from masculine to feminine, as you've said. I hope it didn't seem like I was trying to say that everyone should be identical. I just think traditional gender roles are not some inherent thing that needs to be played out by their respective genders.
At any case, the trend in general is a simple result of having a bunch of straight men create all this stuff. It comes out of ignorance, not malice. The solution to me seems to be to simply have more women in the industry, and in fact more diverse people, in every aspect of production. But trying to "educate the masses" over things that are irrelevant to them seems pointless to me.
I don't know that it's totally pointless, seeing as I used to be totally opposed to feminism before people started telling me more about it. I didn't just change my mind, I researched it and read about it and my opinions changed. So hopefully she does a better job with that huge sum of money she's acquired in the next round of videos.
Exactly. It should be about more diversity. Who does it hurt really that you have half naked elves? If anything I'd say what we need is more half-naked dudes too. We just need more of everything.
Well, that's my point and my gripe with this thread. Discussion is healthy, and there's much to discuss, but giving her 150k for axe-grinding isn't the kind of discussion that's needed.
Well, she wasn't even asking for 150k, I think initially it was $6k and then people started attacking her for it, she posted some blogs about the attacks and there was a huge drama bomb. The donations came mostly from a flood of people angry about her being attacked by really sexist youtube and blog comments. The internet can be a powerful thing when people are mad. I agree 150k is way over the top and all those donations could have gone to a better cause. In fact, there was another Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1211970462/playground-the-child-sex-trade-in-america?ref=live) happening at the same time which barely met it's goal in time which I donated to instead, because it was for a more worthy cause.
From there I think there are two distincts attitudes one can take : either complaining and telling these developers that they are "doing it wrong", or, taking a proactive stance and actively working on showing how things can be "done right". If it is successful, it sure will spread.
i think both methods are valid and both work. look what happened to mass effect 3, it wasn't a bunch of people that took a proactive stance, it was a bunch of people saying this shit sucks, your fucking doing it wrong. you cant expect everyone that enjoys games or film to just go out and make their own film or games. just like i should not have to go build a car if i don't like the ones they have.
i don't believe personally that creators owe anything to fans, or society, but they have to deal with the backlash if its a pile of shit, unliked, or offensive because they put it out in the world for the sole reason of sharing it with the public, and if the public wants to bitch and yell about it then that is the burden the creator has to bear. if they don't like people getting mad about it they can try in the future not to make something people hate or they can just stop showing everyone what they make.
Oh totally - I am not saying that folks shouldn't be vocal about that kind of issue. I am just adopting the specific perspective of us game developers who actually do have the power do things about it We are in the rare situation of being the ones able to create "the next big thing like Mass Effect" - that's a great chance to have and in that context it is all the more valuable to proactively show the way to do things right !
What I'm wondering is why it's okay to tell Artists how to do their art (not in the objective critique kind of way). Be it writers, painters, animators, actors, dancers, anyone.
Sure you can identify a common trait that you observe as negative in popular art but, why does one feel one has the right to say it is "wrong".
I don't mean to fall back on the "why don't you just do it yourself" argument but, is there honestly any other way?
Mirrors Edge and Beyond Good and Evil stand out as games with a non-horrible portrayal of a important female character or characters. But they don't stand out as widely different games do they, they're just a couple of well made excellent games, in the massive library of excellent games. (*opinion of course)
And that's how you do it right, right? You make a game avoiding most of the tropes, avoiding stereotypes and negativity, and make no one really notice it, it's right there in your face, but at the same time subtle.
Of course all of this hinges on whether or not you think games/videos are art, I do and as such feel creators don't have to do anything to cater to anyone, and they're not bad people for it either.
Apparently there's a Misandry in Video Games indiegogo now: http://www.indiegogo.com/misandryinvideogames they claim it's legit, but also that they aren't using any of the money they raise to actually make the videos, they're donating it to charity instead.
Of course all of this hinges on whether or not you think games/videos are art, I do and as such feel creators don't have to do anything to cater to anyone, and they're not bad people for it either.
But this is about education, not censorship.
It's probably wrong to have something like this in your game:
I find these types of threads very odd, because all the complaints about women being portrayed badly in media are to blamed not just social norms but because the writers were rushed or just sucked. In every case were the female characters were portrayed as whores or bimbos you will find that the males lacked any real depth as well. Media where the characters have some life to them and realistic in the way they act human pay the price at the expense of something else. So you get wow those characters were really well fleshed out and were totally believable, but man nothing really happened. In a games were always on a tight timeline to get the games out so the first thing to get cut out are moments where the characters get some depth, and in come the moments where characters are just used to fill a gameplay hook. Why because its a fucking game it has to be fun, and it has to ship. The only games that have really well fleshed out characters took a long ass time to make, or it came at the expense of sales because the core gamers just didn't care. They skipped all the talking, and just wanted to play the game. Outside of games, same issues comic writers have a short window to come up with the comic so it can get made. Movies well the only way you get any non 2d characters there are if you look at indie films where the writers ave something to prove and no one looking at them asking for the script 6 months ago. Big movies will only have the characters get so much dimension given to them because they have a studio over them that knows what people will pay to watch and will kill anything that might hurt sales.
So you want the world to treat people equally, good for you! Thing is the change needs to come from you having kids and teaching them to treat everyone as equals no matter what color their skin is, what they speak, what they believe in, what gender they are, or what gender they love.
In case you don't want to read all that:
Games suck at creating non 2d characters because they are only there to move the gameplay forward.
Comics suck at creating non 2d characters because the writers just want to keep the story and action moving.
TV/Movies suck at creating non 2d characters because big studios know what people will watch/pay for and don't want to pay for anything beyond that.
Anita Sarkeesian is a con artist, exploiting the cause of equality to make a quick buck. She's collected over $150,000 in donations from her kickstarter already, from people she's swindled into supporting her "cause". What does she plan to do with this money? Let's take a look at a quote by her:
Creating these videos take a lot of time and money to produce. I will be researching and playing hundreds of titles from across the gaming industry (including some truly awful games that I wouldnt wish upon anyone!). Your support will go towards production costs, equipment, games and downloadable content.
$160,000 for games? DLC?! Some "production costs", which will probably be insignificant considering that this is not a feature length film, but some YouTube videos? Equipment? What, more equipment? Is the equipment she already has not good enough? What the hell does she plan on doing with this money?
It's been a while since this kickstarter began, and she's remained silent, not stopping the flow of money after it long surpassed her original goal of $6,000, which is still too much money for a few YouTube videos. I hope none of you donated to this thing, because she'll be laughing all the way to the bank. Meanwhile, she hides from criticism by disabling both ratings and comments on her videos as the money continues to flow in.
I'm just going to end my post with this, which really saddens me. I really hope she chooses to redeem herself by donating that money to a good cause, but I'm certain she won't.
you cannot make the people asking for money responsible for how backers give money. You might as well question the "extra" 2.9 million$ double fine made for their adventure project over other projects, say social/medical help...
The way you made this image, you suggest that she took the money away from the others, and people had only the choice of those two where to put their money. Your choice of images is also suggestive, not sure if you intended that.
Anyway it's interesting what kind of emotions her work sets free. I would agree with shallowness being biased in favor of males, just look at E3 Someone surely made articles how trope loaden both male and female are in the past, probably not much of an uproar.
Her work did spark discussion which is always a good thing, gets people to think and express.
You might wonder why this topic causes such emotions and interest, and others don't (and it's out of her control how it spread on the web)
Replies
And this one: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/06/15/gendered-survival-guides-for-kids/
which has an interesting point:
Good parenting trumps any kind of biological parenting remains, but that's a big part of our movement away from what nature decided we should be and what we can be, we don't need two parents of different sexes, we don't need to murder each-other either.
Then again, while not perfect, having not grown up in the US I might have had a slightly more fortunate environment to grow up in :S
That's symptomatic of the problem!
Do you seriously think children are immune to people's expectations? Their decisions are (at least partially) driven by what's expected from society and people around them. I know adult women who don't admit to certain interests or passions of theirs because other women/men in their lives wouldnt think it's appropriate -- and most 5 yearold girls ive met are WAY less independent and prepared to deal with being judged by others than 25 yearolds.
Shoes: "How to Handle Becoming Rich"!? I wish I had girl problems!
sure, the basic survival stuff should be taught to everybody.
and perhaps every kid should be taught that being shy is fucking impractical and won't get them anywhere.
However those books don't seem like actual educational materials.
i mean for christ's sake, "surviving a vampire attack"?
These seem like 'fun' stuff. Stuff that caters to typical -interests- of each gender.
And girls being usually interested in human interactions and emotions way more than boys are isn't just some kind of myth. i'd be bored to death if i tried to read a book full of 'girly' stuff as a kid.
If parents have a child that has interests different from stereotypical ones, that's fine.
i sure wish that they have no problem finding toys and books that cater to that without making the kid question her/his gender.
But gender specific books and toys definitely have their place and exist for a reason.
True, but that says something about the people rather than the products, we're never going to be able to change things unless we change ourselves, it starts with parents, who parent future parents.
I think the "for girls" is the bad part about it.
Yeah for sure. I dont think anyone thinks products are some top down driving force that controls society... It's that the people from the ground up support and create this shit.
Yeah, it's for kids, it's supposed to be 'fun'. It's just an example that illustrates typical gender roles.
Most girls I've ever met are also 'bored to death' by 'girly' stuff. I would have begged my parents to buy me the 'boys only' book :P But the problem lies in the fact that people have a much harder time allowing boys to be into the 'girly' stuff. And that as a result, people tend to think the 'girly' stuff is somehow inferior.
They exist because gender roles exist. The only 'place' they have is with people who identify and relate to their own gender's assigned roles. There are many people who do not. A lot of the guys in this thread have said they know more girls who were/are "tomboys" (they like typical 'guy' stuff). There are just as many guys who identify with more of a typically feminine role but they have a much harder time being visible in society.
Haha if only that was an inherent 'problem' for girls :C :C
Interesting study which is relevant to the gay parent debate as well as the games debate. While it looks like lesbian parents are fine (in a middle/upper class setting anyways), it also shows that genders gravitate towards their traditional interests, bi-gender family or not. I'm sure society has a role to play, but girls will be girls and boys will be boys.
Which ties back into the cliches in video games being fundamentally human, if taken to grotesque extremes at time.
"Boys will be boys and girls will be girls" is a phrase that completely ignores whole groups of the human race and is pretty blatantly untrue. What about Transgendered people and Intersex?
And I really don't see how genders gravitating towards gender roles really proves anything except that uh, gender roles exist and have an effect on people?
*Edit: I didn't see the article mention anything about peers, which can have just as much of an effect on people as their parents.
Alright, here's the actual study:
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Bos-Goldberg-VanGelderen-Gartell-Gender-Society-June-2012.pdf
and a quote:
I'm pretty sure this suggests the exact opposite, that 'gender roles' are merely a societal construct and have nothing to do with people's actual gender. Unless I'm missing something.
And so when gender roles are used in story lines it should be perfectly normal, and not something to pick apart in a series of videos which target the common-sense just as much as the ludicrous.
You should do one of those "studies" where they make a white guy look black, or skinny person fat, or whatever they call those walk in someone else's shoe things.
But why shouldn't we pick apart gender roles? Just because the majority of the world thinks something is normal doesn't mean it's right. Why would any kind of social commentary promoting equality be a bad thing? I realize those videos aren't the best example because she's kind of reactionary, but the idea of a video series about female tropes in video games isn't inherently useless or bad.
I mean, I'm not personally against things like half naked girls in bikini armor. And I don't feel personally threatened by most female stereotypes in video games, but I also wouldn't mind more diversity in characters, and I know other people might not feel the same way as me.
If there was some sort of "No Girls Allowed" mentality in the video-game industry, I'd be right there with you. Equal-rights, etc. The fights to allow women in the military, or to get women equal pay, those all make sense.
But this is a fight to make women the same as men and men the same as women. But we just aren't the same. That seems like a silly thing to complain about, and I guess the only person you can file that complaint with is God/Flying Spaghetti Monster.
But being upset by some scantly clad pixels in a video-game has nothing to do with equality, and all to do with trivializing differences through sameness.
It kinda is. Cause it's either preaching to the choir, or else falls on deaf ears. If a guy designs some scantly-clad female character, obviously that person has no idea how to see things from a woman's perspective. That much should be obvious just because he's a dude, but some disagree with that.
At any case, the trend in general is a simple result of having a bunch of straight men create all this stuff. It comes out of ignorance, not malice. The solution to me seems to be to simply have more women in the industry, and in fact more diverse people, in every aspect of production. But trying to "educate the masses" over things that are irrelevant to them seems pointless to me.
We want diversity? Then we should get diversity. But we shouldn't try and convert people to be the same as other people. That's not equality, and not diversity.
Exactly. It should be about more diversity. Who does it hurt really that you have half naked elves? If anything I'd say what we need is more half-naked dudes too. We just need more of everything.
While true, I think there's a bit more to it than that. It seems to me to be a matter of what do people want to see. And judging by the sheer amount of scantly-clad art created by women that I see out there, I would say that women want to see that kind of stuff just the same as men do. But on the flip side, there's an untapped market here of the equally-represented, but not the same as men, female character that I bet would interest men as well as lots of women.
So I don't think it's as simple as society being too closed-minded, or there being too much of the half-naked elf chick in video-games. It's more about diversity in general.
There's nothing explicitly stated, to be sure, but what many women are referring to is not always an overt 'let's put lady characters in revealing tops', but something more insidious and difficult to pin down. Like an undercurrent of discomfort in certain situations, a low frequency feeling of being out of place. Not always, and certainly, positively not at all studios or conventions, but too often to be considered really opening and welcoming.
I've heard developers mentioning they didn't model female characters because it would mean creating an additional rig, or that someone didn't like working with women because they were lazy. Character creation systems with items like "slutty" skirts, and I've had to stop looking at Gamasutra comments on articles dealing with gendered issues. All things that seem kind of brush-offable on their own, but a little demoralizing if it's what you're used to seeing on a regular basis.
But it seems really far from what was talked about in the videos. And very far from the complaints about how Bill wanting to protect Sookie in True Blood is sexism.
It's not that the clothing design itself was an issue in the least, just the label on it. Tag it a mini skirt, or a micro skirt, or anything that's not such an abrasive, weirdly judgey word.
Nurture versus Nature seems to be the core of your stance. That there is at some point a Nature difference that separates Male and Female behavior. So at some level certain stereotypes about male/female behavior/reaction are true. Correct?
To say this you need an absolute split versus just what one categorizes. What are you using as the absolute? It cannot be genes as that does not always equate a seeming male or female (quick one is the one where a male cant produce any testosterone and thus gains female characteristics in the womb.)
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome
http://www.secondtype.info/ais.htm
Since male and female can be in a large spectrum of behaviors. While its not genes as it is the chemical balances of things like Testosterone or Estrogen that also influence behavior. A point though on these is there is no set amount a person can have. One man can produce Estrogen more than the next or vice versa with a woman and testosterone.
In short any classification is something a society and or a person decides with these roles. There can be no real classification of gender roles scientifically because it lacks an absolute as a basis. Science requires that any test comes up with the same results each time.
Thank you for that post! It is exactly it. From there I think there are two distincts attitudes one can take : either complaining and telling these developers that they are "doing it wrong", or, taking a proactive stance and actively working on showing how things can be "done right". If it is successful, it sure will spread.
In our field these things are very visual and obvious, so I think this is a good point of entry for artists to tackle. I think this can achieve great things. Spreading the word about bad tropes can get people talking, and that's great ... but female (and male) artists getting their hands dirty and actually creating new stuff can achieve much more than that, and since we are part of an artists community I think it is more productive to focus on that aspect of the question since we can actually contribute to it!
I don't think Brave is the movie it is because someone got angry at Pixar telling them that they have been doing things wrong. Rather : they are good folks, have a talented woman in their ranks, and she gets to direct a project. It certainly will be just as awesome as their previous ones, it features a strong female lead that many (not all!) girls will love, it will be successful just like all their movies and audiences will want more of that kind of stories featuring a modern female lead. (Even tho I think what people are universally attracted to is the quality of the storytelling itself and not the gender of the lead, but thats another subject.)
Interesting stuff !
What about Lavern from Day of the tentacle;
I don't find her attractive, but I did like her. She is weird but original as a character...
I do agree with your point though, it's a shame that many people nowadays think that female characters need to look good in order to be in a game.
I cant word my arguments without my disdain for pretty much everyone seeping through, so its always nice when people more eloquent than I drop knowledge bombs.
Well, that's my point and my gripe with this thread. Discussion is healthy, and there's much to discuss, but giving her 150k for axe-grinding isn't the kind of discussion that's needed.
I'm fairly certain that in the future science will derive a set list of natural gender roles that directly relate to human biology and are valid for the average demographic. Animals naturally have their gender roles with limited society, and humans must be the same. With our cumulative culture and societal progress the influence of these gender roles fades though, to the point that some day it might not matter at all other than procreation (if we aren't looking at a Brave New World, future at least).
Identifying common flaws isn't getting angry, and is no less constructive than positive suggestions. If you see lots of beginners making the pectoral insertion to the deltoid done wrong, an instructional tutorial on how to do it right, along with common ways to identify when you're doing it wrong, would be quite helpful. Plus she hasn't only made videos on what's done wrong, she is consistently identifying positive examples, and part of the kickstarter is a video on well done characters.
Already plenty of indie developers have admitted to following one of these tropes without knowing it, and revisiting their female portrayals because of Anita's existing videos and the attention all of this has gotten.
Plus you kind of glossed over her point, which was that while there aren't any De Jure "no girls allowed" laws/rules/attitudes, there is actually a De Facto environment at every stage of development in life that dissuades women from certain fields, including very much videogames.
1. you're belief (and it is a belief) is based on your own opinion on how things should work. you are not everybody, and not everybody thinks like you do.
2. for every one of you that want things to change, that think it's stupid that all girls toys are pink, that not all heroes should be action heroes etc. there are probably 5x the number of people who actually like it that way.
3. it wouldn't be called popular culture, if it wasn't popular. there's a reason things are marketed or created in the way that they are, it's because they appeal to THE LARGEST group of people.
you need to understand that, like it or not, you're in the minority. if you want things to change, you have to do one of two things:
1. change the world.
2. make your own media that you and likeminded people will enjoy.
but as it stands, you're doing neither. Anita's videos are "okay", but they're not really going to do anything, grats to her on making a fucking easy 150k to be honest... she's not going to give it away, she's going to keep it and invest it in... well, making her life easier, and i don't blame her. bunch of morons threw money at her haha.
and to make matters worse, you're ALL in the position to actually make positive change. sure you might not be able to go to your bosses/directors and ask them if they can change x or y in the game you're currently making. but there is NOTHING stopping you from grouping up with other like minded people and going the indie route in your spare time.
you simply don't want it enough that you'll put that effort in.
/endgeneralisation
*the contents of this post are objective opinions and may or may not reflect my actual beliefs. i'm playing devils advocate, deal with it.
credibility - GONE.
Not that your claim that the majority likes it this way holds any water. 47% of gamers are female, and society is basically 50/50 female/male.
If we followed your line of reasoning, it would be up to gay people to either change legislation by themselves, or form a new country with gay rights. Or back during suffrage, all women should fight alone for the right to vote, or make their own all female country where they can vote. If you apply your rule-set to any other issue of rights you can see just how ridiculous an appeal to the status quo is. And isn't it convenient that your implication that "basically everyone likes it how it is" panders to your own personal tastes?
you absolutely have the right to go and make whatever media you like. GO AND DO IT. but your opinion is YOUR OPINION, not your right. it's everyones right to watch/read/play whatever they want and not be subjected to things they don't. it's also their right to create whatever they want, and have it idolized or ignored as per the viewers wishes.
the problem is that you want everything to change regardless of what viewers (generalization) want. you're literally refusing to follow the simple reasoning of: if it wasn't the most popular thing, it would have changed already! if people (generally) wanted what you want, you'd already have it.
but as usual ben, you're all talk. you're doing NOTHING to change ANYTHING. i'm not saying everyone likes it how it is at all. some people don't. it's up to those people to make it the way they want.
do you believe that ALL those female gamers want the change that you want? are you really that arrogant?
this conversation has gotten progressively worse since the start of the thread for the pure and simple fact that you only seem to want to deal in absolutes, where you are right and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. i'm more than happy to concede and say things could/should change. but i don't care enough to do it.
and since you're only sat here typing away instead of making the game you want to see... i guess you don't REALLY care that much either.
anyone can hold up a sign or a banner man, ANYONE. it takes someone with real drive, motivation, and will power to actually make the changes they want.
also: wtf does australia have to do with anything?
they won't. which is why it's up to people like ben to put their time/money where their mouths are. stop talking about wanting change, and change it.
Gir, im not sure what you believe or what bubble you live in, but:
Do you realize that 'don't treat black people like shit' and 'dont treat gay people like shit' were once (recently) unpopular opinions?
Do you understand that those opinions were changed by people taking about the subject, not by anyone fighting in the streets?
Also people DID put their money where their mouths are, they gave that chick 150k, quit being an asshole and trying to dismiss all discussion as irrelevant. If you want to either justify or be completely ignorant of sexism, that's your right, but dont try to stomp all over the adults discussing it. Dfacto brings up sensible counterpoints, whereas you're jamming your fingers in your ears and saying "people WANT to degrade women!"
The objective of just talking about it is to create social change. I'm not sure if you realize, but society is what you and me are forming right now by discussing this. Society is the realm of human interaction. It's constructed, molded, and altered through people talking.
Edit: also, this is timely --
[ame="
The only thing I can think to say is just talk to them about it. There are many things that are offensive to my wife that I didn't think would be and there is plenty on the other side of the coin that I thought may offend her but doesn't. I wouldn't have known unless this thread prompted me to ask.
I have to agree with Gir though about putting the money where your mouth is (although not specifically aimed at Ben, but to developers in general.) We live in a time of indie and kickstarter. Large companies may be slow to move on changing tropes and gender roles in games as they will be more apt to look at cost/gains in the market place as opposed to "making a daring statement." There is nothing to stop you from making that game. And if enough people agree with the vision you have you can get it fully crowd funded. I'm not saying it's simple as pie, but we are entering what could be a renaissance of new ideas for games. If you want to change the way people see things, I honestly can't think of a better time.
also that video!!
wow! science can be used to make shoes and makeup!! women now have a reason to care.
Oh I see what you're saying, yeah, that makes sense. The only time something like that would fly in my book is if the game design, for whatever reason, called for a 'slutty' option. I can't imagine what that situation is, but I suppose it could exist, and in that case it better be an option for the male characters as well.
Pretty much the experience I had, which is why I partially agree with Anita, It was mainly down to lots of good things and real issues and other things my wife would roll her eyes at. My wife used to be a feminist, but eventually "stepped back" to being an equalist, and I know that is what feminism is supposed to be about, but my wife got to encounter lots of people with even more extreme opinions and never felt comfortable in that situation, far more so by the people who were feminists.
And then there were the anti-feminists, a male version of extreme-feminists, with the belief that the world of females conspires in an unjust way towards them.
Different females will think different things, and enjoy different characters, but everyone wants to be treated equally even if they might be different from one-another.
Everyone should have the same opportunities.
It's mainly when I see places like revenge labs becoming a target for unintentionally having troped the shit out of their game, they're to blame for other males seeing females as lesser beings because of their game, even though that was never the purpose.
No, not quite. I'm saying there are masculine and feminine behaviors. But those behaviors aren't exclusive to males or females, just predominant in those groups.
So it doesn't make sense to me to criticize it as "It's BS that they always associate feminine behavior with females in entertainment". Well, yeah, they're females. What doesn't make sense is that it's exclusively that way, not that it exists in the first place. A more valid argument (in my opinion) would be "It's BS that there isn't enough feminine behavior on males, and masculine behavior on females".
But saying "Mario is fat and ugly, how come we don't have a female character that's fat and ugly" makes zero sense to me.
[ame="
I don't know that it's totally pointless, seeing as I used to be totally opposed to feminism before people started telling me more about it. I didn't just change my mind, I researched it and read about it and my opinions changed. So hopefully she does a better job with that huge sum of money she's acquired in the next round of videos.
I'm all for more half naked dudes.
Well, she wasn't even asking for 150k, I think initially it was $6k and then people started attacking her for it, she posted some blogs about the attacks and there was a huge drama bomb. The donations came mostly from a flood of people angry about her being attacked by really sexist youtube and blog comments. The internet can be a powerful thing when people are mad. I agree 150k is way over the top and all those donations could have gone to a better cause. In fact, there was another Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1211970462/playground-the-child-sex-trade-in-america?ref=live) happening at the same time which barely met it's goal in time which I donated to instead, because it was for a more worthy cause.
i think both methods are valid and both work. look what happened to mass effect 3, it wasn't a bunch of people that took a proactive stance, it was a bunch of people saying this shit sucks, your fucking doing it wrong. you cant expect everyone that enjoys games or film to just go out and make their own film or games. just like i should not have to go build a car if i don't like the ones they have.
i don't believe personally that creators owe anything to fans, or society, but they have to deal with the backlash if its a pile of shit, unliked, or offensive because they put it out in the world for the sole reason of sharing it with the public, and if the public wants to bitch and yell about it then that is the burden the creator has to bear. if they don't like people getting mad about it they can try in the future not to make something people hate or they can just stop showing everyone what they make.
Interesting take on this
[ame="
Sure you can identify a common trait that you observe as negative in popular art but, why does one feel one has the right to say it is "wrong".
I don't mean to fall back on the "why don't you just do it yourself" argument but, is there honestly any other way?
Mirrors Edge and Beyond Good and Evil stand out as games with a non-horrible portrayal of a important female character or characters. But they don't stand out as widely different games do they, they're just a couple of well made excellent games, in the massive library of excellent games. (*opinion of course)
And that's how you do it right, right? You make a game avoiding most of the tropes, avoiding stereotypes and negativity, and make no one really notice it, it's right there in your face, but at the same time subtle.
Of course all of this hinges on whether or not you think games/videos are art, I do and as such feel creators don't have to do anything to cater to anyone, and they're not bad people for it either.
But this is about education, not censorship.
It's probably wrong to have something like this in your game:
[ame="
but nobody is going to censor you, if that's what you want to express, do it. Just expect the backlash!
Irony has it: she was probably the least female-trope character we've had in recent games
So you want the world to treat people equally, good for you! Thing is the change needs to come from you having kids and teaching them to treat everyone as equals no matter what color their skin is, what they speak, what they believe in, what gender they are, or what gender they love.
In case you don't want to read all that:
Games suck at creating non 2d characters because they are only there to move the gameplay forward.
Comics suck at creating non 2d characters because the writers just want to keep the story and action moving.
TV/Movies suck at creating non 2d characters because big studios know what people will watch/pay for and don't want to pay for anything beyond that.
$160,000 for games? DLC?! Some "production costs", which will probably be insignificant considering that this is not a feature length film, but some YouTube videos? Equipment? What, more equipment? Is the equipment she already has not good enough? What the hell does she plan on doing with this money?
It's been a while since this kickstarter began, and she's remained silent, not stopping the flow of money after it long surpassed her original goal of $6,000, which is still too much money for a few YouTube videos. I hope none of you donated to this thing, because she'll be laughing all the way to the bank. Meanwhile, she hides from criticism by disabling both ratings and comments on her videos as the money continues to flow in.
I'm just going to end my post with this, which really saddens me. I really hope she chooses to redeem herself by donating that money to a good cause, but I'm certain she won't.
The way you made this image, you suggest that she took the money away from the others, and people had only the choice of those two where to put their money. Your choice of images is also suggestive, not sure if you intended that.
Anyway it's interesting what kind of emotions her work sets free. I would agree with shallowness being biased in favor of males, just look at E3
Her work did spark discussion which is always a good thing, gets people to think and express.
You might wonder why this topic causes such emotions and interest, and others don't (and it's out of her control how it spread on the web)