While I don't have much to add to the conversation, but I would still like to bring up that I think an Art Jam week should be "Lead Females" whether people think it should also be a main competition or not, the Escape competition is still going on and it normally takes some time to set up a new one after that is over, and since they probably won't start a new one until the judging is all finished that is an even longer amount of time until the possibility of a new competition/challenge happens.
I feel like some fast art jams can be better at times as well, since the shorter time span can let artists focus less on churning out a perfect game model, and more on capturing the broad idea of what they were planning to create, sort of like how figure drawing works, but for working on a themed concept. I feel like it could help be a good starting point on giving some insight on different ways to make strong female lead characters.
That way, if a main competition focused around the subject does happen, people could even look at the week art jam stuff for some insight on what they might want to do for their concepts.
Wow, thanks a bunch, that really means a lot to me. That was my first attempt at anything character modeling related, and the positive reaction I got from something I wasn't too sure about at first has since gotten me into it a lot more, and encouraged me that lots of gamers really do want to see stuff like that.
I mean, I would never turn down the opportunity to work on something like that with my actual job, it's just that it's not how most studios go about their female characters and I wouldn't want to work on something that's so removed from my own sensibilities. I'm very often reminded of how rare that kind of opportunity might actually be, if that makes any sense. v:
I'm gonna chime-in and say that as much as girls are objectified - so r men. Are we not put into the tough-man-who-saves-the-girl situation, time after time? And we always have to preform exceedingly well to do so. That's a lot of pressure!
Imagine sitting in a bikini for an hour on the beach, looking lost and confused. Much easier, isn't it?
Men's objectification is a fantasy power play in games, women's objectification on the other hand is an oppressive dominating fantasy. (BROAD SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS!)
It seems this issue just causes people to come in with their preconceptions and not attempt to expand them. This stuff has been debated over and over and then we get new people not reading it and it needs to be reiterated.
Are we not put into the tough-man-who-saves-the-girl situation, time after time? And we always have to preform exceedingly well to do so. That's a lot of pressure!
yeah.. because lets face it - real world women totally expect you to be some kind of thug, who saves their lives on a daily basis! /sarcasm off
its even more pathetic, considering that most of these games doesn't require anything from you, except your reaction and ability to sit on your butt for prolonged periods of time.
Wow, thanks a bunch, that really means a lot to me. That was my first attempt at anything character modeling related, and the positive reaction I got from something I wasn't too sure about at first has since gotten me into it a lot more, and encouraged me that lots of gamers really do want to see stuff like that.
I mean, I would never turn down the opportunity to work on something like that with my actual job, it's just that it's not how most studios go about their female characters and I wouldn't want to work on something that's so removed from my own sensibilities. I'm very often reminded of how rare that kind of opportunity might actually be, if that makes any sense. v:
Yeah, I also want to chime in and say I really loved those designs, IMO they are a perfect example how to do good female characters. Not overtly sexualized, but still very interesting and unique characters that very much fit in the world and don't feel like an afterthought to the male characters.
Thanks! I really want to complete the set, but the scary thing is, with each one I do, there's ten dozen new hats and crazy new miscellaneous items like the zombie items that all need to be refitted to work with them, plus keeping them all up to date would require going back and updating all the old ones as new items come in. So I'd need a ton of free time, but if someday I do, then I shall!
Yeah, I also want to chime in and say I really loved those designs, IMO they are a perfect example how to do good female characters. Not overtly sexualized, but still very interesting and unique characters that very much fit in the world and don't feel like an afterthought to the male characters.
Wow, thanks! Now I really wish I could go back and fix up all of my old ones so they're up to my current standards :shifty: Or just hope that some awesome artists might take up the task. The whole thing with that project was wanting to see if the design process that produced some really cool and fun male characters could be used to create female characters that also resonated well with the gaming community.
It's something that people talk and fight about all the time on the internet, and it seems like common sense. But I thought it might be nice to actually have some examples to show people and hopefully inspire other artists to think about it as well.
Thanks! I really want to complete the set, but the scary thing is, with each one I do, there's ten dozen new hats and crazy new miscellaneous items like the zombie items that all need to be refitted to work with them, plus keeping them all up to date would require going back and updating all the old ones as new items come in. So I'd need a ton of free time, but if someday I do, then I shall!
And thus why most game characters are spacemarine types with bald heads. :c
What is your stance on a sexy female character design, that is objectifying, but is then cosplayed at shows/cons by a beautiful woman?
Is she degrading, or empowering herself?
Would she be anti this movement, or supportive?
This is actually a question that popped into my head a few times when reading this thread.
Answer would probably be: Its complicated, every woman (person) probably feels a little differently about it, I don't think you can really make any generalizations about whether it is empowering or objectification, as obviously people who dress up for comic cons etc do it of their own free will.
Booth babes etc, now if you're paying some models to dress up in slutty costumes, I can see how that could easily be considered objectification. Even then, what is commonly considered "slutty" might be empowering to the "boothbabe" in that situation, so its not really an answerable question imo.
What is your stance on a sexy female character design, that is objectifying, but is then cosplayed at shows/cons by a beautiful woman?
Is she degrading, or empowering herself?
Would she be anti this movement, or supportive?
Presumably if she's choosing to do it, she finds it empowering or at least mildly enjoyable. Other women will probably have a wide range of opinions about it.
Concerning the movement - I don't really think it would be either. I don't think every representation of women is either "for" or "against", I think the need some people have to force things into such categories is part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.
The real question is - how many cosplayers actually even remotely resemble who they're supposed to be dressed as?
There's literally so many differing and opposing types of Feminist issues. Its like trying to fix a complex machine nobody can agree why is broken in the first place, or to what extent.
What is your stance on a sexy female character design, that is objectifying, but is then cosplayed at shows/cons by a beautiful woman?
Is she degrading, or empowering herself?
Would she be anti this movement, or supportive?
I have no problem with cosplaying at all. If you want to show your appreciation for a sexy character by dressing as them, that's wonderful. Women are all different and have varying views and opinions about what makes a good character.
I don't care so much for booth babes, as it's less about someone deciding to share their interest in a game in a creative way as it is a company deciding that more lonely nerds will visit their table if they hire a couple of models to hang around wearing revealing outfits. It always makes me feel slightly uncomfortable, and like somewhat of an outsider due to the exclusionary nature of booth babes. In an industry that for the most part regards women as an irrelevant demographic, things like this just add up.
What is your stance on a sexy female character design, that is objectifying, but is then cosplayed at shows/cons by a beautiful woman?
Is she degrading, or empowering herself?
Would she be anti this movement, or supportive?
I think it depends on how she interprets the attention she receives. If you're gonna dress up some character like felicia you are basically going out in public half naked. If you find it empowering that your outfit is causing some people to be staring at your goods and thinking dirty thoughts involving the said goods then yeah I guess that's empowering. However if you dress up like a sexy character and get totally upset from the stares or comments then you're gonna have a bad time.
I have no problem with cosplaying at all. If you want to show your appreciation for a sexy character by dressing as them, that's wonderful. Women are all different and have varying views and opinions about what makes a good character.
This is where im genuinely confused.
If a man designs a sexy girl character - hes objectifying and just creating 'fap' material as you yourself put it.
But if a woman cosplays that character and feels good about it, its okay?
and beyond that, if a woman decides to dress up as a "sexy" character as a hobby and welcomes the attention it's fine and empowering, but if she chooses to do it professionally it's wrong and it's 'some guy at a company's fault?
A lot of sexy women aren't too concerned with objectification and fair representation as big issues. You've got to be careful of lumping all women into a single group - everyone wants different things.
Looking at sexy women who are happy dressing up is kind of missing the whole point - you have to talk to the women who feel worthless because they don't look like that, they don't have the sexiness that makes them feel valued and worthy of respect. Women who are smart or who are cool and don't get credit for that are more likely to notice the problems of fair representation and objectification.
There are tons of different things guys look like and act like in media. You can be tough or cool or smart or experienced or funny. Each of these things is enough for you to be respected as a great character. Women appear far less in games when they're not at least a 9 looks-wise, don't have an insanely good body, or are outside 16 and 28 years old.
I don't think there's any one thing you can do to fix it. IMO anyone calling out Hazardous for making sexy women is being pretty stupid. But the situation we're in as a game dev culture is a combination of a bunch of factors:
- More straight men are making decisions than women or gay men
- These men often are straight, so when they think of women they think of women they are attracted to
- Because they're straight, when they think of men, they think of men more by their personalities
- A lot of straight men also don't spend as much time with women, so don't really get how they work (so any women they create will be filtered through a lens of these guys' understanding)
So the result is that we see attractive, young and hot women appearing in games (and they also sometimes have other traits) and men who have interesting personalities. There are tons of games that break the mold, but it's a trend.
This whole trend could be helped by more women or gay men, so more perspectives. Also, better educated men could help (the whole reason Anita's making these videos).
I personally like my game heroes sexy as fuck (both men and women), but I think being aware of your audience and adding more diversity in genders, and races, and cultures that you're not part of will let you make games that just make people feel better playing them, and so (I think) just benefit the world far more.
I think you're misunderstanding is broader point teriyaki style. Plus, there is a unique value to perspective -- as feminist as you or me get, we don't escape male gaze -- which isnt necessarily a bad thing, but we do have a unique set of experiences that only straight men have, and we are lacking some unique experiences that other genders and sexualities have.
It is super bizzaro that you think you get to judge how pro-women the clothes a women picks out are.
Huh? I've judged - you lost me there, what did I do wrong now?
You read the post that this was in response to did you not?
Edit: Oh I think I understand now, firstly you made this about me again somehow that always ends up happening but whatever im used to it. :poly118:
Your saying that when a man designs a female character for a game hes judgemental instantly because he didnt either consult / cater to a woman or a particular group of woman before setting out?
Kurt Russell Fan Club - you are proposing... that ONLY the unattractive or gay are interested in feminist equality?
You make me hate words.
Not at all. Not enough straight, white men care, and that's the problem. I mean, they probably care, but they just don't think about it. Don't think that we're all misogynists, we're just people doing things and not thinking and then the world burns.
Also there were some errors in the most recent video,
As shown in every Paper Mario titles, doesn't peach hamper the villain's plans and provide Mario with valuable info while kidnapped? Also didn't she play a major role in Mario RPG and Super Paper Mario? And wasn't it revealed the reason why she cannot do much of anything to overpower most of the antagonist due to the fact that her skillset was mostly defensive and healing. For all those games that were donated to her, she missed many of key points in that series.
Also about fellows exclusively creating these beautiful ladies and , once in awhile it seems alright, but to an outsider it may appear as though the person doing that is in a sad state of affairs. One might assume that they are making the girls they wish they could date and the dudes they wish they were, but that would be an outsider's assumption; not an artist's ambition.
Unique body shapes are interesting as well and need more exposure! I mean folks who have these ideal bodies are much to common in irl and in games, that is no good; we need more folks who are rubenesque or have stranger proportions.
I think the most important point in that (excellent) video response is the critic VS creator part.
No matter how much we argue (= play critics) here, I would still always respect the view and productive output of people like Haz way more than any feminist youtuber talk, simply because regardless of the point of view, sexual orientation and fetishes, actually tackling the complex issue of women representation and facing/resolving problems first hand is always more valuable than simply dreaming about them and telling people how wrong they are. Now of course constructive criticism has value ; it's just that without a solid track record to back it up, it simply doesn't have much.
Also one good way to call out an insecure critic is to pay attention to how many times that person says "as a critic". Deep down anyone like that really wishes that he/she was being a content creator, but doesn't have the guts to become one.
If a man designs a sexy girl character - hes objectifying and just creating 'fap' material as you yourself put it.
But if a woman cosplays that character and feels good about it, its okay?
I don't see what's so confusing. There's nothing necessarily wrong about enjoying or creating low-brow material, in the context that you put it. But that doesn't mean that the design decisions that were made can't be discussed or scrutinized as to how they fit in the broader picture of gaming development and culture; this stuff doesn't exist in a vacuum.
As an artist and a consumer, you're free to ask "why" something was created the way it was, just as you're free to just enjoy it as it is.
I don't think it's really helpful to compare individuals like that, a cosplayer and a character artist. In this case there's nothing right or wrong about what they are doing, it's only with large trends that many people start to have issues. At least, that's how I feel.
Looking at sexy women who are happy dressing up is kind of missing the whole point - you have to talk to the women who feel worthless because they don't look like that, they don't have the sexiness that makes them feel valued and worthy of respect. Women who are smart or who are cool and don't get credit for that are more likely to notice the problems of fair representation and objectification.
My opinions on art do not arise from a sense of being physically unattractive nor low self esteem, what the hell. You must be some kind of scientist.
That would be like saying guys who draw nothing but girls with their boobs hanging out do so because that's the closest thing they'll ever get to the real thing. And we all know that's just ridiculous.
I'm not surprised you are confused. You seem to have mixed up your polygons with actual women:
Don't compare your or anyone else's polygons or pixels to a living, shitting human being. They are not at all the same in any way ever.
[edit] toned it down a bit, but here are some bonus material to make it worthwhile:
EXTRA PRO TIPS
-Don't try to drive the word "car" to work. It is not an actual car.
-Don't eat a sculpture that resembles food. It is not actually food.
-Don't compare real human beings to 3d models depicting human beings.
Isn't the whole basis of this damn argument about feminism vs. video games the fact that people compare themselves to pixels and polygons? So why can't the comparison go both ways... I mean you HAVE to compare your pixels and polygons to real life living and shitting women if you want to make them represent real life living and shitting women accurately eventually...
Edit: I don't mean to enter the argument since it's hilarious to read at some points and I don't really have any thought out opinions about it since most girls I know don't really think these are issues in my country. I just wanted to reply to that one comment because I found it interesting and funny. So carry on thread..
Your[sic] saying that when a man designs a female character for a game hes judgemental instantly because he didnt either consult / cater to a woman or a particular group of woman before setting out?
Isn't the whole basis of this damn argument about feminism vs. video games the fact that people compare themselves to pixels and polygons? So why can't the comparison go both ways... I mean you HAVE to compare your pixels and polygons to real life living and shitting women if you want to make them represent real life living and shitting women accurately eventually...
No. The art is a symbol of the thing. If I always drew a dildo on the side of a car before recognizing it as a car, it doesn't change what a car is. It just means I'm fucking crazy. Also wrong.
(A car does not need an image of a dildo on the side to be a car)
[edit]
To elaborate, you don't compare the word "car" to a real car. That video game representations of "women" are not at all like the real things just points out certain distasteful preferences/ideas some people have. The point is not to force people to fit some other ideal, but rather to fix the problem at it's source -- a broken viewpoint on what constitutes a woman.
My opinions on art do not arise from a sense of being physically unattractive nor low self esteem, what the hell. You must be some kind of scientist.
That would be like saying guys who draw nothing but girls with their boobs hanging out do so because that's the closest thing they'll ever get to the real thing. And we all know that's just ridiculous.
I said more likely for a reason. I know it's ridiculous, I'm not saying that all women who are feminists are ugly or anything stupid like that.
I believe all people, period, should be working towards equality. But they're not. Why aren't they? Mostly because we fight when we suffer. Those who love the status quo are *less likely* to fight.
I don't have low self esteem and I'm not even a woman, but I want women to feel equal. But lots of women don't care. Sometimes it's because they already have it pretty good. I'm saying let's not list all the women who appear to actively working against the fight of equality. Let's discuss things with those who care about it.
Now Hazardous, when you reply to Ninjas you do realize that you aren't actually applying to a REAL Ninja - right? That it is a real man hiding behind an alias? You know that right?
Now Hazardous, when you reply to Ninjas you do realize that you aren't actually applying to a REAL Ninja - right? That it is a real man hiding behind an alias? You know that right?
One can never be too sure these days. FWIW I think hes a real ninja, speaking in tongues.
Teriyaki : I totally agree that there is an imbalance. The problem that I do have with her videos is not the fact that she points out this imbalance, but the fact that she spins things and forces a feminist bias into her analysis instead of simply being a honest humanist. I just care for the subject matter too much.
Simply labelling oneself a feminist is already a dead giveaway that the message will be unhealthily biased. For this reason alone, deconstructing her multi-thousand dollar video is a very fair thing to do.
One can never be too sure these days. FWIW I think hes a real ninja, speaking in tongues.
Dude, you can't even understand a normal English sentence or tell the difference between "your" and "you're"
And you're trying to poke fun of me? Come on man...
So since I'm here, I will talk about the recent Anita Sarkeesian video: Well, it is certainly boring, and not very well produced in my opinion. I don't get in to the whole looking-at-people-while-they-talk genre on Youtube. It seemed to omit important games that were relevant to her point like Super Princess Peach, where Peach rescues Mario. It had some really bad analysis, like deconstructing "damsel in distress" to mean "damsel in distress" and in general was kind of basic, low-level material. It hardly seems a fitting video for such an important issue.
When you call something a car, but it isn't a car, it still isn't a car. BUT. If someone dresses up as a car, say, an average looking person cosplaying as Optimus Prime (which is technically not a car, but I don't know any other Transformer because I'm an adult) - they actually ARE a car. Or rather, you are not allowed to judge whether they are a car or not. If that person dressed as a car stands next to a drawing of a car, neither one is a car. If that person actually gets into a car with the drawing of a car, there's only one actual car there. Get it? So, remember, garbage goes in garbage can.
Replies
I feel like some fast art jams can be better at times as well, since the shorter time span can let artists focus less on churning out a perfect game model, and more on capturing the broad idea of what they were planning to create, sort of like how figure drawing works, but for working on a themed concept. I feel like it could help be a good starting point on giving some insight on different ways to make strong female lead characters.
That way, if a main competition focused around the subject does happen, people could even look at the week art jam stuff for some insight on what they might want to do for their concepts.
Wow!!
Love those models!! Great job man!
Def make more and share them with us.
Imagine sitting in a bikini for an hour on the beach, looking lost and confused. Much easier, isn't it?
Yeah it's something that pops up whenever topics regarding stereotypes, racism, and sexism happen.
Men's objectification is a fantasy power play in games, women's objectification on the other hand is an oppressive dominating fantasy. (BROAD SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS!)
It seems this issue just causes people to come in with their preconceptions and not attempt to expand them. This stuff has been debated over and over and then we get new people not reading it and it needs to be reiterated.
yeah.. because lets face it - real world women totally expect you to be some kind of thug, who saves their lives on a daily basis! /sarcasm off
its even more pathetic, considering that most of these games doesn't require anything from you, except your reaction and ability to sit on your butt for prolonged periods of time.
Yeah, I also want to chime in and say I really loved those designs, IMO they are a perfect example how to do good female characters. Not overtly sexualized, but still very interesting and unique characters that very much fit in the world and don't feel like an afterthought to the male characters.
Aww yeah. Just looked them up and loved them. Seems you put a lot of thought into them, way to go
Thanks! I really want to complete the set, but the scary thing is, with each one I do, there's ten dozen new hats and crazy new miscellaneous items like the zombie items that all need to be refitted to work with them, plus keeping them all up to date would require going back and updating all the old ones as new items come in. So I'd need a ton of free time, but if someday I do, then I shall!
Wow, thanks! Now I really wish I could go back and fix up all of my old ones so they're up to my current standards :shifty: Or just hope that some awesome artists might take up the task. The whole thing with that project was wanting to see if the design process that produced some really cool and fun male characters could be used to create female characters that also resonated well with the gaming community.
It's something that people talk and fight about all the time on the internet, and it seems like common sense. But I thought it might be nice to actually have some examples to show people and hopefully inspire other artists to think about it as well.
And thus why most game characters are spacemarine types with bald heads. :c
What is your stance on a sexy female character design, that is objectifying, but is then cosplayed at shows/cons by a beautiful woman?
Is she degrading, or empowering herself?
Would she be anti this movement, or supportive?
This is actually a question that popped into my head a few times when reading this thread.
Answer would probably be: Its complicated, every woman (person) probably feels a little differently about it, I don't think you can really make any generalizations about whether it is empowering or objectification, as obviously people who dress up for comic cons etc do it of their own free will.
Booth babes etc, now if you're paying some models to dress up in slutty costumes, I can see how that could easily be considered objectification. Even then, what is commonly considered "slutty" might be empowering to the "boothbabe" in that situation, so its not really an answerable question imo.
Presumably if she's choosing to do it, she finds it empowering or at least mildly enjoyable. Other women will probably have a wide range of opinions about it.
Concerning the movement - I don't really think it would be either. I don't think every representation of women is either "for" or "against", I think the need some people have to force things into such categories is part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.
The real question is - how many cosplayers actually even remotely resemble who they're supposed to be dressed as?
Simply because its just so goddamn convoluted.
There's literally so many differing and opposing types of Feminist issues. Its like trying to fix a complex machine nobody can agree why is broken in the first place, or to what extent.
I have no problem with cosplaying at all. If you want to show your appreciation for a sexy character by dressing as them, that's wonderful. Women are all different and have varying views and opinions about what makes a good character.
I don't care so much for booth babes, as it's less about someone deciding to share their interest in a game in a creative way as it is a company deciding that more lonely nerds will visit their table if they hire a couple of models to hang around wearing revealing outfits. It always makes me feel slightly uncomfortable, and like somewhat of an outsider due to the exclusionary nature of booth babes. In an industry that for the most part regards women as an irrelevant demographic, things like this just add up.
I think it depends on how she interprets the attention she receives. If you're gonna dress up some character like felicia you are basically going out in public half naked. If you find it empowering that your outfit is causing some people to be staring at your goods and thinking dirty thoughts involving the said goods then yeah I guess that's empowering. However if you dress up like a sexy character and get totally upset from the stares or comments then you're gonna have a bad time.
This is where im genuinely confused.
If a man designs a sexy girl character - hes objectifying and just creating 'fap' material as you yourself put it.
But if a woman cosplays that character and feels good about it, its okay?
also, this thread:
[ame="
Looking at sexy women who are happy dressing up is kind of missing the whole point - you have to talk to the women who feel worthless because they don't look like that, they don't have the sexiness that makes them feel valued and worthy of respect. Women who are smart or who are cool and don't get credit for that are more likely to notice the problems of fair representation and objectification.
There are tons of different things guys look like and act like in media. You can be tough or cool or smart or experienced or funny. Each of these things is enough for you to be respected as a great character. Women appear far less in games when they're not at least a 9 looks-wise, don't have an insanely good body, or are outside 16 and 28 years old.
I don't think there's any one thing you can do to fix it. IMO anyone calling out Hazardous for making sexy women is being pretty stupid. But the situation we're in as a game dev culture is a combination of a bunch of factors:
- More straight men are making decisions than women or gay men
- These men often are straight, so when they think of women they think of women they are attracted to
- Because they're straight, when they think of men, they think of men more by their personalities
- A lot of straight men also don't spend as much time with women, so don't really get how they work (so any women they create will be filtered through a lens of these guys' understanding)
So the result is that we see attractive, young and hot women appearing in games (and they also sometimes have other traits) and men who have interesting personalities. There are tons of games that break the mold, but it's a trend.
This whole trend could be helped by more women or gay men, so more perspectives. Also, better educated men could help (the whole reason Anita's making these videos).
I personally like my game heroes sexy as fuck (both men and women), but I think being aware of your audience and adding more diversity in genders, and races, and cultures that you're not part of will let you make games that just make people feel better playing them, and so (I think) just benefit the world far more.
It is super bizzaro that you think you get to judge how pro-women the clothes a women picks out are.
That is brilliant!
Huh? I've judged - you lost me there, what did I do wrong now?
You read the post that this was in response to did you not?
Edit: Oh I think I understand now, firstly you made this about me again somehow that always ends up happening but whatever im used to it. :poly118:
Your saying that when a man designs a female character for a game hes judgemental instantly because he didnt either consult / cater to a woman or a particular group of woman before setting out?
Not at all. Not enough straight, white men care, and that's the problem. I mean, they probably care, but they just don't think about it. Don't think that we're all misogynists, we're just people doing things and not thinking and then the world burns.
Notice I did say that educating men could help
I'm not surprised you are confused. You seem to have mixed up your polygons with actual women:
Don't compare your or anyone else's polygons or pixels to a living, shitting human being. They are not at all the same in any way ever.
[edit] toned it down a bit, but here are some bonus material to make it worthwhile:
EXTRA PRO TIPS
-Don't try to drive the word "car" to work. It is not an actual car.
-Don't eat a sculpture that resembles food. It is not actually food.
-Don't compare real human beings to 3d models depicting human beings.
As shown in every Paper Mario titles, doesn't peach hamper the villain's plans and provide Mario with valuable info while kidnapped? Also didn't she play a major role in Mario RPG and Super Paper Mario? And wasn't it revealed the reason why she cannot do much of anything to overpower most of the antagonist due to the fact that her skillset was mostly defensive and healing. For all those games that were donated to her, she missed many of key points in that series.
Also about fellows exclusively creating these beautiful ladies and , once in awhile it seems alright, but to an outsider it may appear as though the person doing that is in a sad state of affairs. One might assume that they are making the girls they wish they could date and the dudes they wish they were, but that would be an outsider's assumption; not an artist's ambition.
Unique body shapes are interesting as well and need more exposure! I mean folks who have these ideal bodies are much to common in irl and in games, that is no good; we need more folks who are rubenesque or have stranger proportions.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT. WOW.
Just WOW
No matter how much we argue (= play critics) here, I would still always respect the view and productive output of people like Haz way more than any feminist youtuber talk, simply because regardless of the point of view, sexual orientation and fetishes, actually tackling the complex issue of women representation and facing/resolving problems first hand is always more valuable than simply dreaming about them and telling people how wrong they are. Now of course constructive criticism has value ; it's just that without a solid track record to back it up, it simply doesn't have much.
Also one good way to call out an insecure critic is to pay attention to how many times that person says "as a critic". Deep down anyone like that really wishes that he/she was being a content creator, but doesn't have the guts to become one.
Actual women are different from polygons OMFG thats where I've been going wrong!?!?!!?
Thank you NINJAS!!!!!!! :thumbup:
I don't see what's so confusing. There's nothing necessarily wrong about enjoying or creating low-brow material, in the context that you put it. But that doesn't mean that the design decisions that were made can't be discussed or scrutinized as to how they fit in the broader picture of gaming development and culture; this stuff doesn't exist in a vacuum.
As an artist and a consumer, you're free to ask "why" something was created the way it was, just as you're free to just enjoy it as it is.
I don't think it's really helpful to compare individuals like that, a cosplayer and a character artist. In this case there's nothing right or wrong about what they are doing, it's only with large trends that many people start to have issues. At least, that's how I feel.
My opinions on art do not arise from a sense of being physically unattractive nor low self esteem, what the hell. You must be some kind of scientist.
That would be like saying guys who draw nothing but girls with their boobs hanging out do so because that's the closest thing they'll ever get to the real thing. And we all know that's just ridiculous.
I'll just quote you again here:
Yes, some polygons are different than a women or her clothes.
Isn't the whole basis of this damn argument about feminism vs. video games the fact that people compare themselves to pixels and polygons? So why can't the comparison go both ways... I mean you HAVE to compare your pixels and polygons to real life living and shitting women if you want to make them represent real life living and shitting women accurately eventually...
Edit: I don't mean to enter the argument since it's hilarious to read at some points and I don't really have any thought out opinions about it since most girls I know don't really think these are issues in my country. I just wanted to reply to that one comment because I found it interesting and funny. So carry on thread..
No. Try again.
No. The art is a symbol of the thing. If I always drew a dildo on the side of a car before recognizing it as a car, it doesn't change what a car is. It just means I'm fucking crazy. Also wrong.
(A car does not need an image of a dildo on the side to be a car)
[edit]
To elaborate, you don't compare the word "car" to a real car. That video game representations of "women" are not at all like the real things just points out certain distasteful preferences/ideas some people have. The point is not to force people to fit some other ideal, but rather to fix the problem at it's source -- a broken viewpoint on what constitutes a woman.
I said more likely for a reason. I know it's ridiculous, I'm not saying that all women who are feminists are ugly or anything stupid like that.
I believe all people, period, should be working towards equality. But they're not. Why aren't they? Mostly because we fight when we suffer. Those who love the status quo are *less likely* to fight.
I don't have low self esteem and I'm not even a woman, but I want women to feel equal. But lots of women don't care. Sometimes it's because they already have it pretty good. I'm saying let's not list all the women who appear to actively working against the fight of equality. Let's discuss things with those who care about it.
One can never be too sure these days. FWIW I think hes a real ninja, speaking in tongues.
Simply labelling oneself a feminist is already a dead giveaway that the message will be unhealthily biased. For this reason alone, deconstructing her multi-thousand dollar video is a very fair thing to do.
Dude, you can't even understand a normal English sentence or tell the difference between "your" and "you're"
And you're trying to poke fun of me? Come on man...
So since I'm here, I will talk about the recent Anita Sarkeesian video: Well, it is certainly boring, and not very well produced in my opinion. I don't get in to the whole looking-at-people-while-they-talk genre on Youtube. It seemed to omit important games that were relevant to her point like Super Princess Peach, where Peach rescues Mario. It had some really bad analysis, like deconstructing "damsel in distress" to mean "damsel in distress" and in general was kind of basic, low-level material. It hardly seems a fitting video for such an important issue.
When you call something a car, but it isn't a car, it still isn't a car. BUT. If someone dresses up as a car, say, an average looking person cosplaying as Optimus Prime (which is technically not a car, but I don't know any other Transformer because I'm an adult) - they actually ARE a car. Or rather, you are not allowed to judge whether they are a car or not. If that person dressed as a car stands next to a drawing of a car, neither one is a car. If that person actually gets into a car with the drawing of a car, there's only one actual car there. Get it? So, remember, garbage goes in garbage can.
Let's all stop and recompose ourselves for a little bit, ok?
Don't give me any reasons to do what I've been wanting to do for almost a year and shut this stupid thing down.
damn, forgot about my avatar. X.x