to be fair, it is expected for someone with such passion for this subject such as Ben to get slightly bent out of shape when someone else totally dismisses all points in this thread and calls it noise and useless argument.
You're really reaching for things here Earthquake; I am not privy to all of poop's posts ever but in this thread and in PMs he seems like a perfectly reasonable and cool dude who's not going round denying straight guys the right to an opinion - which I am quite sure nobody in this thread has ever done. You're paraphrasing pretty hard and coming up with conclusions that none of us have used.
So what stops you from arguing the point from logic, instead of pulling the gender card? If said opinions from people who are simply dismissing this stuff without reason are logically flawed, simply point that out. Don't point to their gender/sexuality/etc as way means to win an argument.
Absolutely nothing stops anyone from using logic, and if everyone did then maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation. Neither I nor Ben are trying to 'win' the argument by pointing out that privileged people can dismiss negative things that don't affect them without any kind of repercussions.
Try thinking of it like this: if you asked ten men 'Hey, is sexism against women bad?' and they all said 'Nah it doesn't bother me', and when you asked one woman she said 'Yes because it hurts me', are you really going to believe all those men over the woman? It costs them nothing to dismiss sexism against women, because it(arguably) doesn't affect them directly.
Absolutely nothing stops anyone from using logic, and if everyone did then maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation. Neither I nor Ben are trying to 'win' the argument by pointing out that privileged people can dismiss negative things that don't affect them without any kind of repercussions.
Try thinking of it like this: if you asked ten men 'Hey, is sexism against women bad?' and they all said 'Nah it doesn't bother me', and when you asked one woman she said 'Yes because it hurts me', are you really going to believe all those men over the woman? It costs them nothing to dismiss sexism against women, because it(arguably) doesn't affect them directly.
Sure, this is all fine and logical, however, I would say that the easy thing to do is say, "Well you're a man, so you don't really understand, as you haven't lived in my shoes". Thats really easy (even if completely true and accurate), the hard thing to do is actually explain why these things are issues, which is all I am suggesting/encouraging.
Sure, this is all fine and logical, however, I would say that the easy thing to do is say, "Well you're a man, so you don't really understand, as you haven't lived in my shoes". Thats really easy (even if completely true and accurate), the hard thing to do is actually explain why these things are issues, which is all I am encouraging.
yay! you are back! :P
i am pretty sure Ben already did a whole lot of explaining the issues already.
that remark was only Ben dismissing someone who dismissed all of it.
but i cant expect him to write more walls of text to someone who calls it "noise and useless argument"
seems like a waste of time.
I agree completely. I think it would be best to simply ignore it, move on, and put your effort into responding to people who are posting something of substance.
I agree completely. I think it would be best to simply ignore it, move on, and put your effort into responding to people who are posting something of substance.
agreed.
but lets either ignore both dismissals or none of them.
but lets either ignore both dismissals or none of them.
to go after one dismissal is bias also.
Going after Ben is bias absolutely, I realize that. But I also realize Ben is a really smart guy and has a lot of good stuff to bring to the discussion when he doesn't get caught up responding to the trolls. So you might think of it as me hating on him, but it isn't really the case. In a sense I hold Ben to a higher degree of accountability, because A. I realize he has a lot to say on these topics, and B. I understand that he knows better than to get caught up slinging mud.
I see a big issue in calling us trolls when we're trying to tell a fellow member to not censor his personal art simply because he's feeling judged.
Skank, I'm not calling you guys trolls in any way, your posts are what spured me to start posting in the first place. I actually pointed to haz's post as a good example of someone who had a well though out and valid comment being dismissed on the basis of his gender etc. I agree with what you're saying 100%.
I'm calling anyone who simply dismisses the topic of the thread with no reasoning trolls, there isn't really a specific person I'm referring to when I say that.
As the people who regularly post in here, I'm passionate about my own things, and one of those is censorship. So even though I avoid this thread like the plague, I'll always try and support others who are feeling like they can't express themselves because a group of people is coming down on them.
talking about censorship is taking it to the extreme. making hyperbolic comments like that is pointless.
you are jumping from too many half-naked female tropes in games to censor all half-naked females ?
it is the same argument tactic we saw in the gun debate where pro gun people were worried someone will take ALL their guns away(instead of some).
instead, i think all this thread is about bringing more balance rather than going to extremes. no one ever asked for censorship in this thread as far as i can tell.
however, it would be naive to say that none of us do a little bit of self-censoring with everything. that is rational behavior.
i see this thread as asking its audience to think. think before you make art. think about the subject. etc. that is not censoring.
talking about censorship is taking it to the extreme. making hyperbolic comments like that is pointless.
you are jumping from too many half-naked female tropes in games to censor all half-naked females ?
it is the same argument tactic we saw in the gun debate where pro gun people were worried someone will take all their guns away.
instead, i think all this thread is about bringing more balance rather than going to extremes. no one ever asked for censorship in this thread as far as i can tell.
however, it would be naive to say that none of us do a little bit of self-censoring with everything. that is rational behavior.
i see this thread as asking its audience to think. think before you make art. think about the subject. etc. that is not censoring.
no no no
BigJohn posted that he feels judged and whatnot, so Haz and I came on to encourage him to continue on his route and make what he loves. To not feel like he needs to censor himself because of all this noise.
Noise being something that is distracting you from your goal.
I'm not saying this topic will lead to censorship, I'm mearly showing support for a fellow member. I'm not going to leave someone like that hanging.
is it not censorship that he's dealing with? censorship is censorship whether it's self inflicted or from an outside source. Sure, it may not be the topic at hand, but he arrived at where he is at because of the topic at hand. So it's relevant.
Not everyone is strong willed. Some people need help seeing things from different angles. He may have felt backed up into a corner. That doesn't mean he's weak. Even the strongest person has a breaking point if there's enough people against you. All we did was see him say what he said, and offered words of encouragement and let him know that he shouldn't feel bad because of his fear of what others will think.
I think anyone on this board can appreciate that message.
BigJohn or anyone else, having their doubts is actually a good thing. it just means the thread is serving its purpose of making people think.
if he has conviction and can justify his own art to himself then he should do what ever he wants.
if he is too weak to be swayed by this thread alone then that is fair too. your faith should not be so weak unless there are holes in your logic
If a woman decides not to post her thoughts about womens issues in videogames because she doesn't want to deal with abusive backlash of the community, is that an indicator that there are holes in her logic?
Censoring yourself because of outside pressure has nothing to do with insecurity over your beliefs.
BigJohn or anyone else, having their doubts is actually a good thing. it just means the thread is serving its purpose of making people think.
if he has conviction and can justify his own art to himself then he should do what ever he wants.
This I feel is a really good point though,
I quite like that people are stopping and thinking. Even if your end goal is to make a sexy racked female, atleast youre now thinking it needs something more, it needs to portray something other than sex, heck if it gets people thinking more in character design in general then that can only be a good thing surely.
If people want to make sexy females then do it, I dont think anybody actually cares tbh. atleast not enough to call you out on it, art is subjective after all.
Ya know i think there is one massive point being ignored here.
Everything that is being taken issue to is mass market, and complete products.
It is super rare to see sexist backlash against portfolio pieces because they don't have an affect on the larger world. Its all about context ya see, nobody takes issue with portfolio piece because they stand in a context less bubble. It's only when you put them into a world and give them a context that any connotations are linked to it.
So there, make as much eye porn as you want and really you shouldn't have a problem, it isn't being massively consumed and has an audience.
The other issue is asking us what would happen if we DID listen to them and made movements to try and fix it by adding more diversity (not even lessening the amount of sexist games).
What would we get?
*Better thought out characters
*more story diversity
*more diversity in art
*girl games that dont feel intimidated by online childish male games in online games
*more women in the industry
In the end the only way that social change happens is when the majority of people or the people who influence society thinks it is a way of actually improving what we do. Try and look at the positives of this movement and see in what ways you can improve your work with it. Censoring creativity would just push us back and i don't think any rational person is asking for that.
The real question to me is, to all the champions of this movement what are you going to do about this aside from talk about whos wrong or right? There's a lot of good artists in here wordsmithing away, yet, despite this being an art forum, where our language is art, why likely we all came here in the first place, there isnt a single thread purposefully setting out to establish 'My contribution to the misrepresentation of females in videogames solution!'
I know theres more to this problem than that, no need to crawl into my ass about it.
But would it not be beneficial to use our common language to take this beyond keyboard sniping each other?
Ok fine, I'm working on my own games where i am keeping my views in mind and i do have a female character as the main protagonist, i think importantly, because i feel it is a far better fit into the game than a male character.
With my professional work when i was at halfbrick i was pretty much tasked with making a macho male character which is known as Barry steakfries, Who features in three games, Monsterdash, Age of Zombies and Jetpack joyride.
I didn't particularly want to make a game universe like that, And while it isn't the direct reason i left the company, it is appealing to me to be able to make games that get away from the silly cliches and focus on quality. One thing that is interesting though is that these games reflect the male dominated culture of the company at the time.
And there isn't any threads doing that as making a game with the sole purpose of supporting feminism is a sure far way to make a shitty game as anything focusing on one element is going to miss the point of making a good game.
Also as far as i can see the only reason why anyone would be "crawling into your ass about it" is because you have been dismissive of issues that other people find important. You have pretty much been trying to tell people how much you dont give a shit.
The real question to me is, to all the champions of this movement what are you going to do about this aside from talk about whos wrong or right? There's a lot of good artists in here wordsmithing away, yet, despite this being an art forum, where our language is art, why likely we all came here in the first place, there isnt a single thread purposefully setting out to establish 'My contribution to the misrepresentation of females in videogames solution!'
I'm going to kick myself tomorrow for sticking my head back in here (and rightly so), but I'm already doing plenty of things. I'm working on an awesome game with people that find these issues important, I'm talking about this controversial stuff in a forum where it might earn me something of a black mark among artists whose work I adore, and I'm refraining from said sniping because it doesn't help and only alienates people.
That said, the question shouldn't be what people like myself are doing (because the answer is often "plenty" behind the scenes) - it should be about those who're apathetic. Why don't they think it applies to them? What about the idea causes hostility, because the idea of including more and better lady representation doesn't have to be a big deal when it comes down to it.
Personally, I'm taking steps to take care of these issues in my game. All our females with armor will be just as armored as the men. As a matter of fact, there's probably more male skin in our game than female.
I also shot down the idea to make the Princess any kind of trophy for the heroes to rescue. As a matter of fact, she comes to the rescue of the main party a couple times.
The main protagonist is also a very powerful woman.
Mind you, I didn't really do this because of my beliefs, but rather because I was just tired of the cliches and it made the most sense for the story.
I think making decisions in story and character roles just to appease the feminist bunch is just as damaging as not doing so. Just make a good story and make good characters.
It's like the whole 'we need more women in the industry'. No, we need better employees period. Whether its a man or woman should be irrelevant.
If I ever seem dismissive in threads like this its because i personally believe this stuff is just circular, and circular discussion just wastes time. Spend that time doing, not talking.
The real question to me is, to all the champions of this movement what are you going to do about this aside from talk about whos wrong or right? There's a lot of good artists in here wordsmithing away, yet, despite this being an art forum, where our language is art, why likely we all came here in the first place, there isnt a single thread purposefully setting out to establish 'My contribution to the misrepresentation of females in videogames solution!'
That's a good point. The last 4 games I have worked on are gender neutral: Overgrowth, Receiver, Desperate Gods and Low-Light
It's good to be proactive on these matters instead of all talk.
It would be cool if rather than everyone only arguing and discussing the topic, if more people also tried working in the medium they know how to use in order to attempt to make good examples of how to accomplish the feminist friendly game-type, whether it be through art, design, storytelling, etc...
I mean discussion is cool, but I do think it could be pretty interesting from a design stand-point to attempt building different types of female characters, and as game artists we know how to, and sometime enjoy the concept of working in certain constraint when it comes to theme, polycount, texture resolution, and all that. No matter what side of the discussion you fall on, I think that just trying to switch things up and try to make feminist friendly characters can be a pretty fun challenge.
Maybe in Crazyfool's Art Jam thread we should have a Strong-Female Lead week or something and see what sort of crazy ways people can attempt to try to make strong female leads with more personality based on visual design alone.
actually that wouldn't be a bad idea... Maybe see if we can talk to a few of the people in the criticism and get their take on it.
I think the backlash wouldn't be so vitriolic if we could maybe illustrate how we can get improvement in this field without turning it into a pink my little pony fest.
It might be worth taking the time to make this a major comp - it could do a lot for people's perception of the games industry if was a bigger deal with some publicity behind it. Maybe wait until the Escape competition is done and then really get the word out. Would be good marketing for Polycount too.
See! The raising of these sorts of topics can have a positive effect!
Great thread. Feel like I've learnt a lot and will now think more before I approach my next character. I'm a big fan of interesting, characterful characters and would like to see more in games. That's my next-gen hope!
Heaven forbid a woman actually take a magnifying glass to our beloved hobby and actually try to unravel and figure out why things are the way they are in the effort that somehow she might change things? Why arent there more female protagonists? Are you protecting Lara Croft in the new Tomb Raider or are you empowering her? And god dammit, wheres my Buffy game?
Shame on all of you.
My wife and I had dinner with the always amazing Warren Spector and his brilliant (and sharp tongued) wife Caroline last night and this very subject came up. Caroline was rather eager to speak up about it. We went back and forth on the subject and, Im paraphrasing, but the takeaway that she said to me (and Im sure shell do a great talk or article about it) is that were not supposed to be this crowd.
Were the gamers, the dorks. Were the ones who were on our computers during prom. Were the ones that were in the back of the lunch room who were playing D&D instead of tossing a football around on the quad. We were supposed to be the open, friendly ones, the ones who welcomed all into our wonderful geeky circle.
Yes yes yes, pleeease polycount make a major contest about gender equality. People are arguing "what have you done about it?" but the problem is "what can I do about it?" if no one listens in your workplace about a idea, it wont get done. This is why only as a community we can actually do something about it.
Personally, I'm taking steps to take care of these issues in my game. All our females with armor will be just as armored as the men. As a matter of fact, there's probably more male skin in our game than female.
I also shot down the idea to make the Princess any kind of trophy for the heroes to rescue. As a matter of fact, she comes to the rescue of the main party a couple times.
The main protagonist is also a very powerful woman.
Mind you, I didn't really do this because of my beliefs, but rather because I was just tired of the cliches and it made the most sense for the story.
I think making decisions in story and character roles just to appease the feminist bunch is just as damaging as not doing so. Just make a good story and make good characters.
It's like the whole 'we need more women in the industry'. No, we need better employees period. Whether its a man or woman should be irrelevant.
If I ever seem dismissive in threads like this its because i personally believe this stuff is just circular, and circular discussion just wastes time. Spend that time doing, not talking.
This is the right attitude towards this issue, you change things because you yourself want to try something different and not because people enforced their opinions on you.
I`m in the middle on this entire issue, i do think games shouldn`t just put girls in skimpy outfits because they can but i also think people shouldn`t be judging others for wanting to do so.
Artistic freedom is as important as freedom of speech and noone should enforce anything upon people if they`re doing the thing they love and are not physically hurting people with it.
The entire "x leads to violence/sexism/racism" argument is a narrow-minded one since there's always a million other factors to take into account.
My main post about guys making sexy girl models. No it doesn't make you a horrible person but it's worth stepping back and going "is this okay? is this just a sexualised object or a woman?"
A women can be sexy and a woman but the problem is people not thinking enough about what they are making. No don't shut out the noise and make what you want to make. Say that to a racist painter and he will just keep painting raciest pictures. All the art we make is like children and we must be prepared to think "is this suitable and ready for the world?" If parents don't think enough about how they prepare there children then you get shitty children going into the world to make it more shitty. All that is asked is 5 mins to step back and think.
Now of course this will lead to Hazardous as the main offender but I just want to say that I have the utmost respect for Hazardous as a person and artist but I think the main problem is not realising there's something wrong when there is, it doesn't make you a bad person, just a little misguided which is easy to get from the misogynistic society that we live in. I mean sure we are chained to companies to which we must follow briefs to get our pay-check, sometimes you just have to think "Is the money worth my integrity? do I truly support what I make?" we all skipped out on possible higher waged jobs in fields like business and ect so what is one more?
I'm sorry but women with clothes covering 2% of there bodies is not cool, its objectifying. You may argue otherwise saying "oh but in the story she's represented like this or her personality is actually like this" but the problem is visually she's just a sex object, personality doesn't matter beyond because you don't have to listen to her to stare at her.
comparing the two you can easily see one is more of a object then the other. All I do is ask, nay plead you to make more of the first, more character, more story, more human. Don't just let yourself make things without thought. For the sake of art in general and all women who feel threatened by games due to the objectified material within. This is not a post made in anger but a plea made with hope that things will change. So that people don't feel the battle is won or that the issues are non important when there are people like this out there that tear me up inside:
The question is "Who am I to have a say in this?" unless your directly effected by this you have only a right to comment but not conclude this argument. You may have not seen sexism in the work place but does that mean it doesn't exist? Sometimes I feel the state of the games industry is enough to make me want to quit but I know that all is needed is time, when a time comes when the games industry is equal in gendered employees, the game produced themselves with be gendered equally.
But on the other hand with the question with the ideas of a female representation contest being raised, I have hope that things will work out in polycount.
On a related note, I keep hoping I'm going to see one of these people who rail against skimpy outfits call out a female artist for it but alas, it never happens.
How about a 'treat everyone with appreciation and respect' contest, where the goal is to not belittle anyone (be they women, outspoken gay dudes, or straight white men) for trying to talk about equality?
What is with this "less talk, more rock" approach to social issues? "What have you DONE about it lately!?" is a great attitude if you're discussing like, workouts or art motivation or whatever, but for social issues it's pretty silly.
What have I done about sexism in games, lately? I talked to people about it. That's kinda, like, how things get done. Social change comes from building a dialog, from breaking down barriers, and from saying "dude, not cool" when your redneck uncle calls somebody a faggot.
That said, I would LOVE a contest as broad as 'leading ladies', feminism aside, that just sounds fun.
CactusFantastico: Swing and a miss -- I love where you're coming from, and I'm sure there are lots of awesome ladies (and dudes) tired of skimpy clothing, but sexuality in and of itself isnt the issue. That's more of an out and out matter of taste. Lots of girls I know dig girls who show skin, lots dont. Female empowerment doesn't come from burkhas, though -- no woman needs you to stand up for her right to not wear a bikini.
Also, before Haz even gets in here: That kingdom death sculpt (the 'bad' example you linked) was client work. Not his design, not his statement, just good execution.
What have I done about sexism in games, lately? I talked to people about it. That's kinda, like, how things get done. Social change comes from building a dialog, from breaking down barriers, and from saying "dude, not cool" when your redneck uncle calls somebody a faggot.
"and from saying "dude, not cool" when your redneck uncle calls somebody a faggot."
That's an example of actually doing something about it.
Sitting here on a forum discussing this isn't really doing something about it. It's circular. Either you try and convince people who will never agree with you, go off topic, or just talk with people who agree with you. All of that does nothing.
Doing something about it does.
All it took was an elderly black woman to sit in the 'wrong' seat of a bus to get all that started. That was an action, not a discussion.
Get motivated, start up this contest you guys mentioned. That's doing something.
CactusFantastico: Swing and a miss -- I love where you're coming from, and I'm sure there are lots of awesome ladies (and dudes) tired of skimpy clothing, but sexuality in and of itself isnt the issue. That's more of an out and out matter of taste. Lots of girls I know dig girls who show skin, lots dont. Female empowerment doesn't come from burkhas, though -- no woman needs you to stand up for her right to not wear a bikini.
Also, before Haz even gets in here: That kingdom death sculpt (the 'bad' example you linked) was client work. Not his design, not his statement, just good execution.
Yeah my main point is not that all women should be clothed up to the max, there is a gap between sexy and objectifying but its not very much and its not very clear. It mostly comes down to if the nudity adds to the character or just solidify itself as a sex object.
and yeah with the kingdom death stuff I know its all client work and shizz but a artist like Hazardous has the ability to work on all sorts of projects. I know that is a huge thing to ask of but I mostly just want to make people think about it and if they really want to be making art such as that. I know working for a misogynistic company means your art will be misogynistic and money is money, a necessary thing but as I said I just want people to think so maybe in the future and in there personal work that they think about the work they make, that's all.
"and from saying "dude, not cool" when your redneck uncle calls somebody a faggot."
That's an example of actually doing something about it.
Sitting here on a forum discussing this isn't really doing something about it. It's circular. Either you try and convince people who will never agree with you, go off topic, or just talk with people who agree with you. All of that does nothing.
Doing something about it does.
All it took was an elderly black woman to sit in the 'wrong' seat of a bus to get all that started. That was an action, not a discussion.
Get motivated, start up this contest you guys mentioned. That's doing something.
Actions will always speak louder than words.
Don't confuse rebellion with doing something about a cause I say. What better to help shape game design then by discussing it with a community of professional game designer? We make the games and thus the power to change it if we get enough designers to agree.
In an effort to try to contribute here and actually move this topic back to substantive issues:
I don't believe this has been posted but it's a GDC panel put together by Leigh Alexander of Gamasutra on this topic. It addresses some of what I think are rampant misconceptions about "what women want" out of a game, including the widespread assumption that males seem to have that women will be terribly offended by your game unless your females "aren't dressed like sluts"
I've never seen a good asian-indian character on these forums.
I'm extremely offended.
Side-note: Why don't the people who want "less skimp, more prim and proper" step up and make something themselves instead of attempting to direct other people?
(Note to self for next character, taxi driving Jedi from Calcutta...)
Replies
to be fair, some of us aren't 'white'.
Absolutely nothing stops anyone from using logic, and if everyone did then maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation. Neither I nor Ben are trying to 'win' the argument by pointing out that privileged people can dismiss negative things that don't affect them without any kind of repercussions.
Try thinking of it like this: if you asked ten men 'Hey, is sexism against women bad?' and they all said 'Nah it doesn't bother me', and when you asked one woman she said 'Yes because it hurts me', are you really going to believe all those men over the woman? It costs them nothing to dismiss sexism against women, because it(arguably) doesn't affect them directly.
yay! you are back! :P
i am pretty sure Ben already did a whole lot of explaining the issues already.
that remark was only Ben dismissing someone who dismissed all of it.
so it seems fair to me. dont you think
No, I don't. I don't think a double dismissal is productive, which was my whole fucking point.
to a certain degree you are right.
but i cant expect him to write more walls of text to someone who calls it "noise and useless argument"
seems like a waste of time.
I agree completely. I think it would be best to simply ignore it, move on, and put your effort into responding to people who are posting something of substance.
agreed.
but lets either ignore both dismissals or none of them.
to go after one dismissal is bias also.
Going after Ben is bias absolutely, I realize that. But I also realize Ben is a really smart guy and has a lot of good stuff to bring to the discussion when he doesn't get caught up responding to the trolls. So you might think of it as me hating on him, but it isn't really the case. In a sense I hold Ben to a higher degree of accountability, because A. I realize he has a lot to say on these topics, and B. I understand that he knows better than to get caught up slinging mud.
Skank, I'm not calling you guys trolls in any way, your posts are what spured me to start posting in the first place. I actually pointed to haz's post as a good example of someone who had a well though out and valid comment being dismissed on the basis of his gender etc. I agree with what you're saying 100%.
I'm calling anyone who simply dismisses the topic of the thread with no reasoning trolls, there isn't really a specific person I'm referring to when I say that.
As the people who regularly post in here, I'm passionate about my own things, and one of those is censorship. So even though I avoid this thread like the plague, I'll always try and support others who are feeling like they can't express themselves because a group of people is coming down on them.
you are jumping from too many half-naked female tropes in games to censor all half-naked females ?
it is the same argument tactic we saw in the gun debate where pro gun people were worried someone will take ALL their guns away(instead of some).
instead, i think all this thread is about bringing more balance rather than going to extremes. no one ever asked for censorship in this thread as far as i can tell.
however, it would be naive to say that none of us do a little bit of self-censoring with everything. that is rational behavior.
i see this thread as asking its audience to think. think before you make art. think about the subject. etc. that is not censoring.
no no no
BigJohn posted that he feels judged and whatnot, so Haz and I came on to encourage him to continue on his route and make what he loves. To not feel like he needs to censor himself because of all this noise.
Noise being something that is distracting you from your goal.
I'm not saying this topic will lead to censorship, I'm mearly showing support for a fellow member. I'm not going to leave someone like that hanging.
if he has conviction and can justify his own art to himself then he should do what ever he wants.
if he is too weak to be swayed by this thread alone then that is fair too. your faith should not be so weak unless there are holes in your logic.
i just don't see how bringing up CENSORSHIP to any of this discussion is anything other than a distraction.
Not everyone is strong willed. Some people need help seeing things from different angles. He may have felt backed up into a corner. That doesn't mean he's weak. Even the strongest person has a breaking point if there's enough people against you. All we did was see him say what he said, and offered words of encouragement and let him know that he shouldn't feel bad because of his fear of what others will think.
I think anyone on this board can appreciate that message.
So discussion over, move on.
Censoring yourself because of outside pressure has nothing to do with insecurity over your beliefs.
This I feel is a really good point though,
I quite like that people are stopping and thinking. Even if your end goal is to make a sexy racked female, atleast youre now thinking it needs something more, it needs to portray something other than sex, heck if it gets people thinking more in character design in general then that can only be a good thing surely.
If people want to make sexy females then do it, I dont think anybody actually cares tbh. atleast not enough to call you out on it, art is subjective after all.
http://youtu.be/TVI4A1np9zM
Everything that is being taken issue to is mass market, and complete products.
It is super rare to see sexist backlash against portfolio pieces because they don't have an affect on the larger world. Its all about context ya see, nobody takes issue with portfolio piece because they stand in a context less bubble. It's only when you put them into a world and give them a context that any connotations are linked to it.
So there, make as much eye porn as you want and really you shouldn't have a problem, it isn't being massively consumed and has an audience.
The other issue is asking us what would happen if we DID listen to them and made movements to try and fix it by adding more diversity (not even lessening the amount of sexist games).
What would we get?
*Better thought out characters
*more story diversity
*more diversity in art
*girl games that dont feel intimidated by online childish male games in online games
*more women in the industry
In the end the only way that social change happens is when the majority of people or the people who influence society thinks it is a way of actually improving what we do. Try and look at the positives of this movement and see in what ways you can improve your work with it. Censoring creativity would just push us back and i don't think any rational person is asking for that.
I know theres more to this problem than that, no need to crawl into my ass about it.
But would it not be beneficial to use our common language to take this beyond keyboard sniping each other?
Ok fine, I'm working on my own games where i am keeping my views in mind and i do have a female character as the main protagonist, i think importantly, because i feel it is a far better fit into the game than a male character.
With my professional work when i was at halfbrick i was pretty much tasked with making a macho male character which is known as Barry steakfries, Who features in three games, Monsterdash, Age of Zombies and Jetpack joyride.
I didn't particularly want to make a game universe like that, And while it isn't the direct reason i left the company, it is appealing to me to be able to make games that get away from the silly cliches and focus on quality. One thing that is interesting though is that these games reflect the male dominated culture of the company at the time.
And there isn't any threads doing that as making a game with the sole purpose of supporting feminism is a sure far way to make a shitty game as anything focusing on one element is going to miss the point of making a good game.
Also as far as i can see the only reason why anyone would be "crawling into your ass about it" is because you have been dismissive of issues that other people find important. You have pretty much been trying to tell people how much you dont give a shit.
I'm going to kick myself tomorrow for sticking my head back in here (and rightly so), but I'm already doing plenty of things. I'm working on an awesome game with people that find these issues important, I'm talking about this controversial stuff in a forum where it might earn me something of a black mark among artists whose work I adore, and I'm refraining from said sniping because it doesn't help and only alienates people.
That said, the question shouldn't be what people like myself are doing (because the answer is often "plenty" behind the scenes) - it should be about those who're apathetic. Why don't they think it applies to them? What about the idea causes hostility, because the idea of including more and better lady representation doesn't have to be a big deal when it comes down to it.
I also shot down the idea to make the Princess any kind of trophy for the heroes to rescue. As a matter of fact, she comes to the rescue of the main party a couple times.
The main protagonist is also a very powerful woman.
Mind you, I didn't really do this because of my beliefs, but rather because I was just tired of the cliches and it made the most sense for the story.
I think making decisions in story and character roles just to appease the feminist bunch is just as damaging as not doing so. Just make a good story and make good characters.
It's like the whole 'we need more women in the industry'. No, we need better employees period. Whether its a man or woman should be irrelevant.
If I ever seem dismissive in threads like this its because i personally believe this stuff is just circular, and circular discussion just wastes time. Spend that time doing, not talking.
That's a good point. The last 4 games I have worked on are gender neutral: Overgrowth, Receiver, Desperate Gods and Low-Light
It's good to be proactive on these matters instead of all talk.
That's exactly the point I've been trying to make all along. Its good to think about as it has a high likely hood of making your work less derivitive.
Thanks Skanker.
I mean discussion is cool, but I do think it could be pretty interesting from a design stand-point to attempt building different types of female characters, and as game artists we know how to, and sometime enjoy the concept of working in certain constraint when it comes to theme, polycount, texture resolution, and all that. No matter what side of the discussion you fall on, I think that just trying to switch things up and try to make feminist friendly characters can be a pretty fun challenge.
Maybe in Crazyfool's Art Jam thread we should have a Strong-Female Lead week or something and see what sort of crazy ways people can attempt to try to make strong female leads with more personality based on visual design alone.
I think the backlash wouldn't be so vitriolic if we could maybe illustrate how we can get improvement in this field without turning it into a pink my little pony fest.
Not much to add to this thread, but I hope people are being good to each other.
Also, a great little snippet of opinion on stuff and things by Cliffy B here:
http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/45150472512/anonymous-internet-boy-taliban-tropes
Great thread. Feel like I've learnt a lot and will now think more before I approach my next character. I'm a big fan of interesting, characterful characters and would like to see more in games. That's my next-gen hope!
rad
That would be amazingly cool.
This is the right attitude towards this issue, you change things because you yourself want to try something different and not because people enforced their opinions on you.
I`m in the middle on this entire issue, i do think games shouldn`t just put girls in skimpy outfits because they can but i also think people shouldn`t be judging others for wanting to do so.
Artistic freedom is as important as freedom of speech and noone should enforce anything upon people if they`re doing the thing they love and are not physically hurting people with it.
The entire "x leads to violence/sexism/racism" argument is a narrow-minded one since there's always a million other factors to take into account.
hah!
I'll point out that almost all the characters in my game are minorities too. ;p
well ladies arent really minorities
skanz: you're the exception to the rule, as always. A true pantsless man that everyone should aspire to - regardless of gender, age, and race.
A women can be sexy and a woman but the problem is people not thinking enough about what they are making. No don't shut out the noise and make what you want to make. Say that to a racist painter and he will just keep painting raciest pictures. All the art we make is like children and we must be prepared to think "is this suitable and ready for the world?" If parents don't think enough about how they prepare there children then you get shitty children going into the world to make it more shitty. All that is asked is 5 mins to step back and think.
Now of course this will lead to Hazardous as the main offender but I just want to say that I have the utmost respect for Hazardous as a person and artist but I think the main problem is not realising there's something wrong when there is, it doesn't make you a bad person, just a little misguided which is easy to get from the misogynistic society that we live in. I mean sure we are chained to companies to which we must follow briefs to get our pay-check, sometimes you just have to think "Is the money worth my integrity? do I truly support what I make?" we all skipped out on possible higher waged jobs in fields like business and ect so what is one more?
I'm sorry but women with clothes covering 2% of there bodies is not cool, its objectifying. You may argue otherwise saying "oh but in the story she's represented like this or her personality is actually like this" but the problem is visually she's just a sex object, personality doesn't matter beyond because you don't have to listen to her to stare at her.
When your fully capable of making a well rounded female character like this:
http://www.hazardousarts.com/Images/Rubi_01.jpg
it just makes me think, why do you make more of this?
http://www.hazardousarts.com/Images/Lioness_01.jpg
comparing the two you can easily see one is more of a object then the other. All I do is ask, nay plead you to make more of the first, more character, more story, more human. Don't just let yourself make things without thought. For the sake of art in general and all women who feel threatened by games due to the objectified material within. This is not a post made in anger but a plea made with hope that things will change. So that people don't feel the battle is won or that the issues are non important when there are people like this out there that tear me up inside:
The question is "Who am I to have a say in this?" unless your directly effected by this you have only a right to comment but not conclude this argument. You may have not seen sexism in the work place but does that mean it doesn't exist? Sometimes I feel the state of the games industry is enough to make me want to quit but I know that all is needed is time, when a time comes when the games industry is equal in gendered employees, the game produced themselves with be gendered equally.
But on the other hand with the question with the ideas of a female representation contest being raised, I have hope that things will work out in polycount.
On a related note, I keep hoping I'm going to see one of these people who rail against skimpy outfits call out a female artist for it but alas, it never happens.
What is with this "less talk, more rock" approach to social issues? "What have you DONE about it lately!?" is a great attitude if you're discussing like, workouts or art motivation or whatever, but for social issues it's pretty silly.
What have I done about sexism in games, lately? I talked to people about it. That's kinda, like, how things get done. Social change comes from building a dialog, from breaking down barriers, and from saying "dude, not cool" when your redneck uncle calls somebody a faggot.
That said, I would LOVE a contest as broad as 'leading ladies', feminism aside, that just sounds fun.
CactusFantastico: Swing and a miss -- I love where you're coming from, and I'm sure there are lots of awesome ladies (and dudes) tired of skimpy clothing, but sexuality in and of itself isnt the issue. That's more of an out and out matter of taste. Lots of girls I know dig girls who show skin, lots dont. Female empowerment doesn't come from burkhas, though -- no woman needs you to stand up for her right to not wear a bikini.
Also, before Haz even gets in here: That kingdom death sculpt (the 'bad' example you linked) was client work. Not his design, not his statement, just good execution.
"and from saying "dude, not cool" when your redneck uncle calls somebody a faggot."
That's an example of actually doing something about it.
Sitting here on a forum discussing this isn't really doing something about it. It's circular. Either you try and convince people who will never agree with you, go off topic, or just talk with people who agree with you. All of that does nothing.
Doing something about it does.
All it took was an elderly black woman to sit in the 'wrong' seat of a bus to get all that started. That was an action, not a discussion.
Get motivated, start up this contest you guys mentioned. That's doing something.
Actions will always speak louder than words.
Yeah my main point is not that all women should be clothed up to the max, there is a gap between sexy and objectifying but its not very much and its not very clear. It mostly comes down to if the nudity adds to the character or just solidify itself as a sex object.
and yeah with the kingdom death stuff I know its all client work and shizz but a artist like Hazardous has the ability to work on all sorts of projects. I know that is a huge thing to ask of but I mostly just want to make people think about it and if they really want to be making art such as that. I know working for a misogynistic company means your art will be misogynistic and money is money, a necessary thing but as I said I just want people to think so maybe in the future and in there personal work that they think about the work they make, that's all.
Don't confuse rebellion with doing something about a cause I say. What better to help shape game design then by discussing it with a community of professional game designer? We make the games and thus the power to change it if we get enough designers to agree.
I don't believe this has been posted but it's a GDC panel put together by Leigh Alexander of Gamasutra on this topic. It addresses some of what I think are rampant misconceptions about "what women want" out of a game, including the widespread assumption that males seem to have that women will be terribly offended by your game unless your females "aren't dressed like sluts"
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016639/Writing-The-Unsung-Experiences-Gender
It's well worth the length. And easily one of the best discussions I've seen on this topic.
I'm extremely offended.
Side-note: Why don't the people who want "less skimp, more prim and proper" step up and make something themselves instead of attempting to direct other people?
(Note to self for next character, taxi driving Jedi from Calcutta...)