Don't confuse rebellion with doing something about a cause I say. What better to help shape game design then by discussing it with a community of professional game designer? We make the games and thus the power to change it if we get enough designers to agree.
i'm not, but my point still stands. Rebellion is an action and thus, doing something about it.
While we're at it can we make a comp for each individual minority that isn't fairly represented in games? cool. Thanks.
Yeah, this too. Being Arabic, it's getting kind of tedious shooting endless hordes of "my people", or watch them gunned down in endless movies. Oh well.
On a related note, I keep hoping I'm going to see one of these people who rail against skimpy outfits call out a female artist for it but alas, it never happens.
btw you do realise there's something called internalised misogyny :P woman can be sexiest to women (stuff like slut shaming), black people can be raciest to black people, it does happen due to dominant society telling them to call out other woman for these things. I unfortunately know a person who is part of a raciest organisation against minority's while he is in fact a minority. he was scrubbed in the bath every night to "make him more white" Instead of fighting back against this, he has given in and been brainwashed by his racist parents.
i'm not, but my point still stands. Rebellion is an action and thus, doing something about it.
true but if we are all doing what we can to help in our own way, who are you to call them out and say there not doing anything? we all want the same goal, we shouldn't be fighting each other in this way.
I'm well aware, really unimportant to my point though.
People call out Hazardous all the time, he's the easy target. That never happens to women here. Perhaps because they're oblivious to it, or maybe because they don't want to be a guy pretentiously lecturing a woman on what internalized misogyny is while trying to convince her that her design choices work to oppress their own gender. No problems doing that with the men here though.
true but if we are all doing what we can to help in our own way, who are you to call them out and say there not doing anything? we all want the same goal, we shouldn't be fighting each other in this way.
The reason I say what I say is because I was pointing out before on why I seem dismissive about the whole issue. Because I feel discussion (like this one) is just noise and wasting time.
Luckily I'm waiting for someone to finish a task that I need to start on.
So, would you rather keep going back and forth with me about this or would you rather get back to work and address this situation the best way you can? I know I would love to do that.
I'm glad it made to Kotaku (sort of?), since less people probably saw his blog post (linked a few pages back by Darbeenbo) and more people look at Kotaku for news/information.
Cliffy does seem confused in the disclaimer though, he will eventually have to decide if his games were a part of the problem or if sarkeesian was wrong in _his_ particular wrong-doing. To be seen in fighting fuck toy I would guess.
I do believe he has all the good intention though, and that is much needed in the industry overall.
Just because I may have the capability to make whatever is 'OKAY' by you, why don't I make more of that IN MY SPARE TIME? I could write a book on that mate!
I also dont like the slaughter of whales, but you certainly wont catch me strapping myself to the harpoon gun of a whaling boat in protest. Nor will you find me spending my time turning my art into a giant anti-whaling campaign.
If that makes me a Hypocrite - then sure I'll happily accept that I am. But Im pretty sure that would also make everyone on the planet a Hypocrite. Everyone has stuff they dont like, it doesnt mean they all of a sudden devote their lives to solving each one. Can you understand that?
I'll make whatever you pay me to make if the price is right! But only if I feel like it.
I get my strength because Im able to express myself shamelessly as an artist and because I'm very comfortable with who I am, and where I'm going. I dont have anything to hide, no deep dark secrets to reveal, my parents, my family, my wife all know I make sexy girls, I'm not on the fence or in some hazy grey cloud that im struggling to find my way out of, and I definitely don't feel dirty or like an evil white male.
I never, nor will I EVER set out to please you, or any other minority / majority / with my artwork thats created on my own time - unless I feel like doing that.
Neither am I setting out to rub any other minority / majority / cause the wrong way - which I will never feel like doing, yet am apparently doing anyway.
But I understand why Im targeted - Sure I do, and now - I'm totally fine with it In fact I welcome it. Dissect it, rip it apart, analyze it tear it down.
Thanks for dropping the links to my art - more hits for me :thumbup:
P.S I'm looking forward to breaking into the sexy girl 8" Desktop collectible toy scene - I'm sure I'll have to add another carriage to the Hate Train especially for it!
P.P.S I really wish I could talk about the things that have happened in my professional career and my roles in those things specifically targeting this movement - unfortunately It would likely ruin my career forever and until Im in a financial place of security where I'm unafraid of the repercussions - it will have to wait.
TLDR:
You Objectify Women! - Apparently! Be more sensitive to your viewers! - No! Viewer sensativity is not my compass of creation. I'm going to poopoo you every time I see your work! - Join the Queue Bro, I'll even give you a cuppa tea and biscuit while you wait!
I'm inclined to agree with Cliff B... A phrase I never ever thought I'd ever type in a million years... But yeah. I agree. I find Sarkeesian's work interesting. It puts some things that I've always seen into a different lens. I don't always agree with the vision provided by that lens, but I can appreciate what the lens is showing me. I've been waiting for Tropes vs. Women in Videogames for a few months now, and I'm glad to see it happen.
Haz, I'm kinda curious. Why even respond when something like that is said? I mean, you've heard it a dozen times before. You've said pretty much the same thing a dozen times before. You've said your piece, man. Let it rest.
Not to mention that in an ironic twist, he's objectifying the women in your art by automatically assuming the first example is more 'well rounded' simply by her physical looks.
For all he knows the first example could be written to be nothing more than the stereotype he's feels so strongly against.
Haz, I'm kinda curious. Why even respond when something like that is said? I mean, you've heard it a dozen times before. You've said pretty much the same thing a dozen times before. You've said your piece, man. Let it rest.
I think.... you understand me!
Gets boring listening to the same shit over and over doesn't it!?
Its okay for people to step in and use me for their argument, or poopoo my work over and over again, I have to listen or read about it in one form of another all the time - But heaven forbid I attempt to lift my shield in defense under the repeated blows!!
Guess what? Just like that religious zealot that knocks on your door and attempts to convince you that his god is the best god, I'm going to be right there with bells on every time my artwork is personally brought back into this discussion DashXero - Deal with it. I do.
Cliffy does seem confused in the disclaimer though, he will eventually have to decide if his games were a part of the problem or if sarkeesian was wrong in _his_ particular wrong-doing. To be seen in fighting fuck toy I would guess.
I do believe he has all the good intention though, and that is much needed in the industry overall.
Fighting Fuck Toy would be more like Bayonetta or pretty much any character in StreetFighter/Tekken/Dead or Alive. I think if Cliffy's games make the list they'll be more likely put into Mrs. Male Character.
Though I think Bulletstorm would have made good material for damsel, same with Alyx Vance in Half-Life 2. Rather than just taking shots at games with ludicrously simple plots to provide the purest examples. Guess they could be in part 2 though.
Edit: Slight tangent but I'm very interested in the fighting fuck toy video because I am curious to see if she'll even mention Bayonetta at all and if she's changed her thoughts on it after deleting her original criticism of the game after the backlash she received over it.
In an effort to try to contribute here and actually move this topic back to substantive issues:
I don't believe this has been posted but it's a GDC panel put together by Leigh Alexander of Gamasutra on this topic. It addresses some of what I think are rampant misconceptions about "what women want" out of a game, including the widespread assumption that males seem to have that women will be terribly offended by your game unless your females "aren't dressed like sluts"
It's well worth the length. And easily one of the best discussions I've seen on this topic.
Was a great listen. however one thing that struck me was how they enjoyed Bayonetta, when Anita made an entire video about how horrible the game was....
EDIT: Haz, I hope you keep posting in this thread. I know it gets frustrating but you are literally being the sacrificial lamb for whats wrong with the game industry and have been several other times that I can specifically recall.
Don't let them have the last word just because you have better shit to do with your time.
Was a great listen. however one thing that struck me was how they enjoyed Bayonetta, when Anita made an entire video about how horrible the game was....
Well they seem to have differing ideas about why they enjoy it, one of the panelists mentioned how she thought that the overt hypersexualization and "male gaze" aspects of the game almost seemed so overdone that they could have been a satirical look at the issue.
Anita removed her original criticism of the game after a lot of backlash about it, though she didn't state on her blog that she had changed her mind about the game just that she removed it because the video was supposed to be about the ad campaign. so whether or not she even brings it up again or if her thoughts on it have evolved remains to be seen.
My hope though was that people would listen to that and come to realize that Anita Sarkeesian is not the official spokesperson for women's views in games that everyone seems to treat her as. She's just offering one perspective.
I think you're the only one who listened to it though.
Gets boring listening to the same shit over and over doesn't it!?
Its okay for people to step in and use me for their argument, or poopoo my work over and over again, I have to listen or read about it in one form of another all the time - But heaven forbid I attempt to lift my shield in defense under the repeated blows!!
Guess what? Just like that religious zealot that knocks on your door and attempts to convince you that his god is the best god, I'm going to be right there with bells on every time my artwork is personally brought back into this discussion DashXero - Deal with it. I do.
Easy...
There's nothing wrong with shielding something that needs defending. All I'm saying is that the very act of shielding implies that there's something to defend or defend against. The very fact that people use you or your work for argument's sake is a testament to what you've done. It's the price people pay for being good at what they do - it's a price very few people ever have to pay. Do you think Michael Jordan cares that people say that he's ruined the game of basketball? Heck no. He probably revels in it. I would.
By far the most important thing anyone can do to "help the cause" is to buy games that portray characters the way they want.
People don't keep making games that no one buys and every failed product just adds to the pile of evidence that convinces publishers that these risks aren't worth taking.
By far the most important thing anyone can do to "help the cause" is to buy games that portray characters the way they want.
People don't keep making games that no one buys and every failed product just adds to the pile of evidence that convinces publishers that these risks aren't worth taking.
Bibendum your point about failed product isn't very well evidenced. There's tons of clone IP products that fail because they are clones of the same tired cliches.
All you've done is proven my point. 10 years ago the thing to do in the gaming industry was to have everybody churning out World War 2 games, how many of those do you see now? People don't continue making crap that they cannot sell. It's financial unsustainable.
You have to look at the bigger picture here and if you actually want to analyze it on a smaller level then simply ask yourself this: Can you name a single company that continues to make the same games in the face of declining sales? Do you think they'll still be in business 3-5 years from now?
Tomb Raider didn't get rebooted because of the developers wanted to portray themselves as more mature in the industry. It got rebooted because the sales of the series went down the toilet.
How long are you going to continue ignoring my point? Do you think Nintendo lost relevance in the industry? Do you think it's likely to maintain its significance or continue to decline? I already said and I'm going to repeat it for the last time, look at the bigger picture. Nintendo's situation is bleak and getting worse, if they do not adjust their strategy in some way they WILL fail.
The only CoD game that has failed to outsell the last is Black ops 2, that's not an indicator of a trend nor is it an indicator of what activision is going to do with it in the future.
The new Tomb Raider game sold over a million copies in 2 days, it met and exceeded it's sales expectations. Your opinion on the game doesn't really matter.
An argument that states - "This decision delivered more sales - therefore is correct." is not a moral stance.
What the hell does this have to do with anything I said?
This idea of a perfect "market" that works as a meritocracy is completely flawed. Anyone who runs a company or works in marketing will tell you their job is to manipulate the desires of the consumer, or even to create desire from scratch from where before there was none (smart phones, tablets, consoles, etc).
Hollywood has had decades longer than games to allow this metric to come to a head, and yet we still have vapid portrayals of women as sexual objects in almost every big budget movie if they are even present at all. Relevant link http://www.feministfrequency.com/2011/02/womens-stories-movies-and-the-oscars/ (both youtube and transcript at this link)
This is going to take conscious effort, just like any social ill. We cannot rely on "the consumer" to fix it through the whim of the day. Most games make or break based on the gameplay mechanics being fun, strong marketing/timing, with quality art being important as well. The quality of the story has arguably little to do with a game´s lasting success, so it would be very easy to broaden the themes without changing sales. Conversely, gamedevs could continue recycling the same tired tropes, and as long as the other aspects are done well, consumers will gobble it up.
Well, obviously I think it has some value or effect, or I would not object to poor portrayal of women/GLBT/people-of-color. I merely object to the idea that the "market" will help us arrive at equality, rather than conscious effort by game developers (or directors in the case of hollywood).
I know I mentioned it earlier as a joke but this really is OWS thread 2.0, complete with the fundamental dispute over who has the real power, the masses (consumers/voters) or the people they elect (developers/politicians).
Couldn't it be argued if "the masses" were more educated. And by educated they were made more empathetic to marginalized people they would be more aware of how their market choices affected things? And then make the decision to improve (or not improve) those conditions?
And isn't the things discussed in this thread a possible education to some?
i don´t understand the conncetion between education and empathy.
people are selfish by nature, no matter how educated they are.
educated people are just better in hiding their selfishness.
i don´t understand the conncetion between education and empathy.
people are selfish by nature, no matter how educated they are.
educated people are just better in hiding their selfishness.
Even with you ignoring complex human psychology. Who is to say that empathy is not incompatible with selfishness?
Edit: I should also explain the connection to education. If you cannot understand anothers situation, ones ability to emphasize is reduced.
After reading this thread, I'm starting to reinforce the idea that being "good" is just an arbitrary concept and that I am screwing up somewhere, somehow, in someone's eyes. Which I guess is enough since minorities have equal value to majorities.
I guess that's why it's actually a legitimate statement to say:
"It's my body, I do what I want."
"It gets sales, therefore is right." Or, "we have to make sales, therefore we must make a sexist product"
Never heard anyone say this crap but based on your rampant misinterpretation of my previous posts I'm going to assume this is partially directed at me. So let me lay out my position as best I can:
I don't like negative reinforcement.
That includes people who think they are paragons of morality trying to convince the allegedly ignorant to abandon what they're doing in favor of something else because they are but a cancer on society that spreads it social ills to the less fortunate. This is an incredibly poor way to acheive diversity because it does so by stigmatizing one group in favor of another, it's little more than a shame campaign.
In my opinion the best way to promote a more diverse market is to support developers who do things differently, buy their games, spread the word about them, recommend them to your friends, outlining exactly *why* you like them so much helps communicate what they're doing right, and of course to make these products yourself. This encourages the growth of an alternative market without making judgements about other people based on your own subjective beliefs in what is/isn't sexist.
That's right. Subjective. You talk about "sexist products" as though it's some well defined concept that everyone agrees on which is complete horse shit. Feminists are like anybody else and have wildly varrying views on what is and is not offensive/sexist. The disparity between how Anita Sarkeesian and Leigh Alexander viewed Bayonetta was my favorite example but if you need something a little closer to home: You expressed your (seemingly) profound disappointment over the new Tomb Raider, others are not as convinced.
Suggesting everyone be sensitive to everything people may take offense to doesn't even lead to diversity because by it's very nature it pushes out anything that could be construed as objectionable content. That's not swinging the pendulum toward diversity it's swinging it toward homogeneity.
So when I see people proclaiming that what they really want is "diversity" while trying to achieve it by attacking othe-- oh wait I'm sorry, "educating" the poor misguided souls who do not see the world as they do on how morally bankrupt they are, I can do little but sit back, roll my eyes, and think "yeah right"
I really don't see how you can stand here and accuse others of being complicit in immorality and pretend like that is an opinion and not a judgement just because you put "imo" in front of it but whatever.
I see no value in pursuing a conversation about moral value and at this point I feel I'd just be repeating things I already said anyway so I'm going to make my exit here. I still think my post is painfully appropriate and applicable to you, however I apologize if I am incorrect.
You know I'm a fan, but I think you may be misunderstanding the issue people may have with your work. So, from one middle class, straight, white male, character artist to another - let me give you some feedback on one of your most popular pieces. This is an art forum after all, so, maybe instead of using our words I can help you out with the ever elusive paint over.
To be blunt, your work promotes anorexia. By showing that much skin, you are promoting an unhealthy and, frankly, unobtainable body type. You may not understand this, but this type of imagery can be offensive. I suggest you add a stylish, very middle of the road, suit jacket - obviously using all of the buttons available. This will hide those curves and really leave the body type underneath a mystery - allowing the viewer to "fill in the blanks." This change will also give this character a nice, normal, appearance that will never stand out of the crowd - it will seem familiar and unremarkable.
Along with that, this character is showing far too much skin to be in a work friendly environment. Now, I'm not sure what type of dress code they have in Valhalla - but the amount of leg we are seeing in this shot is more fitting for the National Enquirer rather than Gender Neutral Ragnarok (LOL.) So, just some simple slacks to cover up those knees would really help this piece and bring it into a world that all of us could relate to. I'd suggest just something basic that you could pick up at Urban Outfitters - no need to have this element stand out and compete against that beautifully normal jacket.
I would also take another pass on her face. Again, technically it's sound, but this type o bone structure just isn't possible without years of surgery. Add some weight and blemishes on there, have you seen the blog post of porn stars without makeup that has been circling reddit and social media outlets? I would take a look at that. Your work currently weighs heavily on the "After" side f that study rather than the more realistic "Before."
Finally, the finishing touch, the polearm that you have given this female characte rimplies that she cannot get up close and personal in battle - instead keeping enemies at a distance for, presumably, a stronger male warrior to come in and save the day. I suggest replacing that with a close range weapon, maybe even something that she would have nearby, this could also be a great opportunity to score some nerd points - try giving her an enlarged copy of The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
I know this is pretty late to be giving you feedback, but at the very least consider it for your next piece. If you need any more help just let me know through PM - or hell, on Skype, you know where to find me.
Thanks Ace-Angel: was that on your fortune cookie?
Actually, funny story, but yes, I actually saw something like that in one of the fortune cookies I cracked open.
Also, @ the Harzardous issue on hand:
Maybe if people payed attention to his art when he wasn't only making naked ladies, he wouldn't be making ladies all the time.
I still remember him on his first models and when his forum avatar was that of Vergil from DMC.
Lets think about it for a moment, how many of Hazardous's works got ANY attentions AFTER he started making them ladies? How many companies HIRE him because he can make pretty faces? How many times are HIS pieces shown on other sites, like Kotaku when they run a Comp. article post win because of this? How many times does he win something because he makes ladies?
I mean with everyone making space marines here and there, or badly mal-noursished characters, you will notice no one can be on the same level as Hazard when it comes to what he is doing in the figure form range in game quality limits, he's pretty varied (fat forms not withstanding) when you compared it other artists everywhere.
Even people like Steven Stahlberg (with all due respect) aren't up to snuff anymore. Seriously, the most well known 3D pin-up artist has very basic trodden understanding of the female form, just take a look at his "Spider Girls" piece to see what I mean.
Hazard's latest piece of the Sci-Fi Guy Bust is the perfect example of this, he can do awesome other stuff, yet outside of PC, I haven't see any attention put on it, and even then it was very minor outside of the banner, I was surprised no one wrote lover letters to that piece and how it looks like a bad-ass character from a Pixar movie, yet they do that for his other pieces.
Do I even need to mention his Forsaker? How come no one payed attention to that one?
Yet as soon as Hazard make a single female model, even as much as a head sculpt, a bunch of people bum-rush it, even before he finished the model! Be it DA, CG, PC or any other site.
And as always, in the game industry, you cannot show off your personal work, and after an 8 hour gig at the office, have to head home, and just will do what you want to do in your spare time at that point because fuck it, and that's alot of the feelings many artist I met have, people who do characters could be also great environment artists, but you might as well do what you know best instead of trying to put in more time and drain on yourself for something that amounts to nothing in another area.
Same thing with shaders, alot of artist I met understand shaders, could even do them, but say "Fuck that noise, I would rather do something I know best and keep my 'folio tip topped in that area".
So no, Hazardous isn't doing anything 'special', but everything he does are EXACTLY what other artists do, but gets a special spot light due to the subject.
And frankly speaking, people like Cliffy B., who are in well off positions shouldn't be talking about such matters so heavy handily family dinner meetings in the issue, because they weren't in your everyday artists position for alot of behind the scene issues.
If you can create your own fap material in your spare time, that's great for you and I applaud your resourcefulness. Personally, for as much as I love figurative art, I'm usually pretty glad that I'm not a character artist in this industry.
...I'm usually pretty glad that I'm not a character artist in this industry.
Which is a shame, because I always liked your female TF2 class designs, which were exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see more of in games. ...surprisingly relevant to this thread's topic.
Which is a shame, because I always liked your female TF2 class designs, which were exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see more of in games. ...surprisingly relevant to this thread's topic.
Wow, thanks a bunch, that really means a lot to me. That was my first attempt at anything character modeling related, and the positive reaction I got from something I wasn't too sure about at first has since gotten me into it a lot more, and encouraged me that lots of gamers really do want to see stuff like that.
I mean, I would never turn down the opportunity to work on something like that with my actual job, it's just that it's not how most studios go about their female characters and I wouldn't want to work on something that's so removed from my own sensibilities. I'm very often reminded of how rare that kind of opportunity might actually be, if that makes any sense. v:
Although Gav's being overly bullish (you forgot the beard dude!!! women should be allowed them too!!! haha) its the way the thread is going. Alot of waffle and circles, and alot of people taking the topic to the extreme. It is an issue but it isnt something thats not being addressed. Theres alot of games coming out like remember me, beyond, last of us etc that are doing great things. (I really dont hope people over analyse last of us as the female being weak, SHES A FUCKING CHILD for god sake, oh and she kills people when she has to, in an environment (context) where its kill or be killed). Hell even gears has ladies now.
If we look to the past there are issues, massive blinding issues. But are they not being addressed? is there any racist or sexist games coming out that in context cause offence? please list them as I would honestly like to know because off the top of my head I just cant?
Singling out Haz was stupid aswell, people forget his professional work and even more so forget the good he has done in getting people to think about the female form in alot more detail, how many people loved his analysis after Rubi Malone of the female form? It gives you the building blocks and then its upto you where you go.
I think its pointless to argue this in personal art, as its influence on actual marketed games is none existent to miniscule. Game designers, writers and publishers need to change among all else, The issue isnt women arent allowed to be sexy, that would see trenchcoats everywhere. Again its easy to over analyse when you forget context.
I now know my initial beef wasnt too much to do with sexism but to do with personal taste. I just wish that when artists tackle the female form they actually study it, dont idealise, dont make the same heads as everyone else, make it special.
Is this me saying sexism isnt a problem, no, its me saying people are looking into the past too much and not looking forward in the matter.
Replies
i'm not, but my point still stands. Rebellion is an action and thus, doing something about it.
Yeah, this too. Being Arabic, it's getting kind of tedious shooting endless hordes of "my people", or watch them gunned down in endless movies. Oh well.
btw you do realise there's something called internalised misogyny :P woman can be sexiest to women (stuff like slut shaming), black people can be raciest to black people, it does happen due to dominant society telling them to call out other woman for these things. I unfortunately know a person who is part of a raciest organisation against minority's while he is in fact a minority. he was scrubbed in the bath every night to "make him more white" Instead of fighting back against this, he has given in and been brainwashed by his racist parents.
true but if we are all doing what we can to help in our own way, who are you to call them out and say there not doing anything? we all want the same goal, we shouldn't be fighting each other in this way.
People call out Hazardous all the time, he's the easy target. That never happens to women here. Perhaps because they're oblivious to it, or maybe because they don't want to be a guy pretentiously lecturing a woman on what internalized misogyny is while trying to convince her that her design choices work to oppress their own gender. No problems doing that with the men here though.
The reason I say what I say is because I was pointing out before on why I seem dismissive about the whole issue. Because I feel discussion (like this one) is just noise and wasting time.
Luckily I'm waiting for someone to finish a task that I need to start on.
So, would you rather keep going back and forth with me about this or would you rather get back to work and address this situation the best way you can? I know I would love to do that.
I'm glad it made to Kotaku (sort of?), since less people probably saw his blog post (linked a few pages back by Darbeenbo) and more people look at Kotaku for news/information.
skank: If you're ever interested in fighting for a cause but only want to operate in a bubble, let me know, I'm your guy.
Edit>
I do believe he has all the good intention though, and that is much needed in the industry overall.
Oh the hubris!
Just because I may have the capability to make whatever is 'OKAY' by you, why don't I make more of that IN MY SPARE TIME? I could write a book on that mate!
I also dont like the slaughter of whales, but you certainly wont catch me strapping myself to the harpoon gun of a whaling boat in protest. Nor will you find me spending my time turning my art into a giant anti-whaling campaign.
If that makes me a Hypocrite - then sure I'll happily accept that I am. But Im pretty sure that would also make everyone on the planet a Hypocrite. Everyone has stuff they dont like, it doesnt mean they all of a sudden devote their lives to solving each one. Can you understand that?
I'll make whatever you pay me to make if the price is right! But only if I feel like it.
I get my strength because Im able to express myself shamelessly as an artist and because I'm very comfortable with who I am, and where I'm going. I dont have anything to hide, no deep dark secrets to reveal, my parents, my family, my wife all know I make sexy girls, I'm not on the fence or in some hazy grey cloud that im struggling to find my way out of, and I definitely don't feel dirty or like an evil white male.
I never, nor will I EVER set out to please you, or any other minority / majority / with my artwork thats created on my own time - unless I feel like doing that.
Neither am I setting out to rub any other minority / majority / cause the wrong way - which I will never feel like doing, yet am apparently doing anyway.
But I understand why Im targeted - Sure I do, and now - I'm totally fine with it In fact I welcome it. Dissect it, rip it apart, analyze it tear it down.
Thanks for dropping the links to my art - more hits for me :thumbup:
P.S I'm looking forward to breaking into the sexy girl 8" Desktop collectible toy scene - I'm sure I'll have to add another carriage to the Hate Train especially for it!
P.P.S I really wish I could talk about the things that have happened in my professional career and my roles in those things specifically targeting this movement - unfortunately It would likely ruin my career forever and until Im in a financial place of security where I'm unafraid of the repercussions - it will have to wait.
TLDR:
You Objectify Women! - Apparently!
Be more sensitive to your viewers! - No! Viewer sensativity is not my compass of creation.
I'm going to poopoo you every time I see your work! - Join the Queue Bro, I'll even give you a cuppa tea and biscuit while you wait!
Haz, I'm kinda curious. Why even respond when something like that is said? I mean, you've heard it a dozen times before. You've said pretty much the same thing a dozen times before. You've said your piece, man. Let it rest.
Not to mention that in an ironic twist, he's objectifying the women in your art by automatically assuming the first example is more 'well rounded' simply by her physical looks.
For all he knows the first example could be written to be nothing more than the stereotype he's feels so strongly against.
Books, their covers and all that jazz.
I think.... you understand me!
Gets boring listening to the same shit over and over doesn't it!?
Its okay for people to step in and use me for their argument, or poopoo my work over and over again, I have to listen or read about it in one form of another all the time - But heaven forbid I attempt to lift my shield in defense under the repeated blows!!
Guess what? Just like that religious zealot that knocks on your door and attempts to convince you that his god is the best god, I'm going to be right there with bells on every time my artwork is personally brought back into this discussion DashXero - Deal with it. I do.
Though I think Bulletstorm would have made good material for damsel, same with Alyx Vance in Half-Life 2. Rather than just taking shots at games with ludicrously simple plots to provide the purest examples. Guess they could be in part 2 though.
Edit: Slight tangent but I'm very interested in the fighting fuck toy video because I am curious to see if she'll even mention Bayonetta at all and if she's changed her thoughts on it after deleting her original criticism of the game after the backlash she received over it.
EDIT: Haz, I hope you keep posting in this thread. I know it gets frustrating but you are literally being the sacrificial lamb for whats wrong with the game industry and have been several other times that I can specifically recall.
Don't let them have the last word just because you have better shit to do with your time.
Anita removed her original criticism of the game after a lot of backlash about it, though she didn't state on her blog that she had changed her mind about the game just that she removed it because the video was supposed to be about the ad campaign. so whether or not she even brings it up again or if her thoughts on it have evolved remains to be seen.
My hope though was that people would listen to that and come to realize that Anita Sarkeesian is not the official spokesperson for women's views in games that everyone seems to treat her as. She's just offering one perspective.
I think you're the only one who listened to it though.
Easy...
There's nothing wrong with shielding something that needs defending. All I'm saying is that the very act of shielding implies that there's something to defend or defend against. The very fact that people use you or your work for argument's sake is a testament to what you've done. It's the price people pay for being good at what they do - it's a price very few people ever have to pay. Do you think Michael Jordan cares that people say that he's ruined the game of basketball? Heck no. He probably revels in it. I would.
People don't keep making games that no one buys and every failed product just adds to the pile of evidence that convinces publishers that these risks aren't worth taking.
^^ this in general for anything media related
You have to look at the bigger picture here and if you actually want to analyze it on a smaller level then simply ask yourself this: Can you name a single company that continues to make the same games in the face of declining sales? Do you think they'll still be in business 3-5 years from now?
Tomb Raider didn't get rebooted because of the developers wanted to portray themselves as more mature in the industry. It got rebooted because the sales of the series went down the toilet.
The only CoD game that has failed to outsell the last is Black ops 2, that's not an indicator of a trend nor is it an indicator of what activision is going to do with it in the future.
Once again you're proving my point with Medal of Honor: http://www.geek.com/articles/games/ea-says-there-wont-be-anymore-medal-of-honor-games-20130131/
The new Tomb Raider game sold over a million copies in 2 days, it met and exceeded it's sales expectations. Your opinion on the game doesn't really matter.
What the hell does this have to do with anything I said?
Hollywood has had decades longer than games to allow this metric to come to a head, and yet we still have vapid portrayals of women as sexual objects in almost every big budget movie if they are even present at all. Relevant link http://www.feministfrequency.com/2011/02/womens-stories-movies-and-the-oscars/ (both youtube and transcript at this link)
This is going to take conscious effort, just like any social ill. We cannot rely on "the consumer" to fix it through the whim of the day. Most games make or break based on the gameplay mechanics being fun, strong marketing/timing, with quality art being important as well. The quality of the story has arguably little to do with a game´s lasting success, so it would be very easy to broaden the themes without changing sales. Conversely, gamedevs could continue recycling the same tired tropes, and as long as the other aspects are done well, consumers will gobble it up.
i don´t understand the conncetion between education and empathy.
people are selfish by nature, no matter how educated they are.
educated people are just better in hiding their selfishness.
Even with you ignoring complex human psychology. Who is to say that empathy is not incompatible with selfishness?
Edit: I should also explain the connection to education. If you cannot understand anothers situation, ones ability to emphasize is reduced.
I guess that's why it's actually a legitimate statement to say:
"It's my body, I do what I want."
I don't like negative reinforcement.
That includes people who think they are paragons of morality trying to convince the allegedly ignorant to abandon what they're doing in favor of something else because they are but a cancer on society that spreads it social ills to the less fortunate. This is an incredibly poor way to acheive diversity because it does so by stigmatizing one group in favor of another, it's little more than a shame campaign.
In my opinion the best way to promote a more diverse market is to support developers who do things differently, buy their games, spread the word about them, recommend them to your friends, outlining exactly *why* you like them so much helps communicate what they're doing right, and of course to make these products yourself. This encourages the growth of an alternative market without making judgements about other people based on your own subjective beliefs in what is/isn't sexist.
That's right. Subjective. You talk about "sexist products" as though it's some well defined concept that everyone agrees on which is complete horse shit. Feminists are like anybody else and have wildly varrying views on what is and is not offensive/sexist. The disparity between how Anita Sarkeesian and Leigh Alexander viewed Bayonetta was my favorite example but if you need something a little closer to home: You expressed your (seemingly) profound disappointment over the new Tomb Raider, others are not as convinced.
Suggesting everyone be sensitive to everything people may take offense to doesn't even lead to diversity because by it's very nature it pushes out anything that could be construed as objectionable content. That's not swinging the pendulum toward diversity it's swinging it toward homogeneity.
So when I see people proclaiming that what they really want is "diversity" while trying to achieve it by attacking othe-- oh wait I'm sorry, "educating" the poor misguided souls who do not see the world as they do on how morally bankrupt they are, I can do little but sit back, roll my eyes, and think "yeah right"
I see no value in pursuing a conversation about moral value and at this point I feel I'd just be repeating things I already said anyway so I'm going to make my exit here. I still think my post is painfully appropriate and applicable to you, however I apologize if I am incorrect.
You know I'm a fan, but I think you may be misunderstanding the issue people may have with your work. So, from one middle class, straight, white male, character artist to another - let me give you some feedback on one of your most popular pieces. This is an art forum after all, so, maybe instead of using our words I can help you out with the ever elusive paint over.
To be blunt, your work promotes anorexia. By showing that much skin, you are promoting an unhealthy and, frankly, unobtainable body type. You may not understand this, but this type of imagery can be offensive. I suggest you add a stylish, very middle of the road, suit jacket - obviously using all of the buttons available. This will hide those curves and really leave the body type underneath a mystery - allowing the viewer to "fill in the blanks." This change will also give this character a nice, normal, appearance that will never stand out of the crowd - it will seem familiar and unremarkable.
Along with that, this character is showing far too much skin to be in a work friendly environment. Now, I'm not sure what type of dress code they have in Valhalla - but the amount of leg we are seeing in this shot is more fitting for the National Enquirer rather than Gender Neutral Ragnarok (LOL.) So, just some simple slacks to cover up those knees would really help this piece and bring it into a world that all of us could relate to. I'd suggest just something basic that you could pick up at Urban Outfitters - no need to have this element stand out and compete against that beautifully normal jacket.
I would also take another pass on her face. Again, technically it's sound, but this type o bone structure just isn't possible without years of surgery. Add some weight and blemishes on there, have you seen the blog post of porn stars without makeup that has been circling reddit and social media outlets? I would take a look at that. Your work currently weighs heavily on the "After" side f that study rather than the more realistic "Before."
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/porn-stars-makeup-gallery-1.1286228?pmSlide=1
Finally, the finishing touch, the polearm that you have given this female characte rimplies that she cannot get up close and personal in battle - instead keeping enemies at a distance for, presumably, a stronger male warrior to come in and save the day. I suggest replacing that with a close range weapon, maybe even something that she would have nearby, this could also be a great opportunity to score some nerd points - try giving her an enlarged copy of The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
I know this is pretty late to be giving you feedback, but at the very least consider it for your next piece. If you need any more help just let me know through PM - or hell, on Skype, you know where to find me.
Yours in Christ,
Gav.
Actually, funny story, but yes, I actually saw something like that in one of the fortune cookies I cracked open.
Also, @ the Harzardous issue on hand:
Maybe if people payed attention to his art when he wasn't only making naked ladies, he wouldn't be making ladies all the time.
I still remember him on his first models and when his forum avatar was that of Vergil from DMC.
Lets think about it for a moment, how many of Hazardous's works got ANY attentions AFTER he started making them ladies? How many companies HIRE him because he can make pretty faces? How many times are HIS pieces shown on other sites, like Kotaku when they run a Comp. article post win because of this? How many times does he win something because he makes ladies?
I mean with everyone making space marines here and there, or badly mal-noursished characters, you will notice no one can be on the same level as Hazard when it comes to what he is doing in the figure form range in game quality limits, he's pretty varied (fat forms not withstanding) when you compared it other artists everywhere.
Even people like Steven Stahlberg (with all due respect) aren't up to snuff anymore. Seriously, the most well known 3D pin-up artist has very basic trodden understanding of the female form, just take a look at his "Spider Girls" piece to see what I mean.
Hazard's latest piece of the Sci-Fi Guy Bust is the perfect example of this, he can do awesome other stuff, yet outside of PC, I haven't see any attention put on it, and even then it was very minor outside of the banner, I was surprised no one wrote lover letters to that piece and how it looks like a bad-ass character from a Pixar movie, yet they do that for his other pieces.
Do I even need to mention his Forsaker? How come no one payed attention to that one?
Yet as soon as Hazard make a single female model, even as much as a head sculpt, a bunch of people bum-rush it, even before he finished the model! Be it DA, CG, PC or any other site.
And as always, in the game industry, you cannot show off your personal work, and after an 8 hour gig at the office, have to head home, and just will do what you want to do in your spare time at that point because fuck it, and that's alot of the feelings many artist I met have, people who do characters could be also great environment artists, but you might as well do what you know best instead of trying to put in more time and drain on yourself for something that amounts to nothing in another area.
Same thing with shaders, alot of artist I met understand shaders, could even do them, but say "Fuck that noise, I would rather do something I know best and keep my 'folio tip topped in that area".
So no, Hazardous isn't doing anything 'special', but everything he does are EXACTLY what other artists do, but gets a special spot light due to the subject.
And frankly speaking, people like Cliffy B., who are in well off positions shouldn't be talking about such matters so heavy handily family dinner meetings in the issue, because they weren't in your everyday artists position for alot of behind the scene issues.
TL DR;
You just made my day.
Thanks.
Via Con Dios My child
Which is a shame, because I always liked your female TF2 class designs, which were exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see more of in games. ...surprisingly relevant to this thread's topic.
Wow, thanks a bunch, that really means a lot to me. That was my first attempt at anything character modeling related, and the positive reaction I got from something I wasn't too sure about at first has since gotten me into it a lot more, and encouraged me that lots of gamers really do want to see stuff like that.
I mean, I would never turn down the opportunity to work on something like that with my actual job, it's just that it's not how most studios go about their female characters and I wouldn't want to work on something that's so removed from my own sensibilities. I'm very often reminded of how rare that kind of opportunity might actually be, if that makes any sense. v:
If we look to the past there are issues, massive blinding issues. But are they not being addressed? is there any racist or sexist games coming out that in context cause offence? please list them as I would honestly like to know because off the top of my head I just cant?
Singling out Haz was stupid aswell, people forget his professional work and even more so forget the good he has done in getting people to think about the female form in alot more detail, how many people loved his analysis after Rubi Malone of the female form? It gives you the building blocks and then its upto you where you go.
I think its pointless to argue this in personal art, as its influence on actual marketed games is none existent to miniscule. Game designers, writers and publishers need to change among all else, The issue isnt women arent allowed to be sexy, that would see trenchcoats everywhere. Again its easy to over analyse when you forget context.
I now know my initial beef wasnt too much to do with sexism but to do with personal taste. I just wish that when artists tackle the female form they actually study it, dont idealise, dont make the same heads as everyone else, make it special.
Is this me saying sexism isnt a problem, no, its me saying people are looking into the past too much and not looking forward in the matter.