Hopefully this will keep up until election time and help guide the country towards better policies and some reform in certain ways of life.
Only fear is a good portion of the people stepping up right now will be distracted and bought into a smart talker, someone who knows how to herd the sheep the way they want. It sorta happened with Obama in making great speeches about change and other stuff people love to hear. Regardless if you like the man or not.. any person somewhat intelligent knew that what he promised was impossible because... reality sucks. Good will and the golden rule have been getting the shit beat of of them by greed almost forever.
Anytime someone I talk to says they want a better president or someone to represent them.. I tell them to run for office. Just try. If we had as many people trying to rise up and join congress or run for president as we do protest about greed here.. we might actually have a govt that thinks like us. I've gotten to the point where I don't trust anyone who wears a fancy suit and says they represent me. That shouldn't be a job requirement.
The tea party movement is a failure because its the same thing as other parties. Smaller, but they still support people who have no relation to the public. Everyone thinks that having lots of money and knowing how to spin words to look good make for a good representative.
I always say congress has a pretty nice job. They get paid to argue, complain and blame others for a living. They don't have to get along with co-workers and can publicly call them out without any problems. if any of us were to treat our co-workers the same we'd either leave our job or be fired.
thats my rant. i'm from texas and neither nutjob conservative *although I do love my guns and beer* nor am I a liberal hippie/hipster. Would love a day when we can stop having to identify ourselves with a party and just say we're american and proud.:thumbup:
Aye Capitol Hill, but protesting the stocks of the same companies that provide you with your your windows, iphones and twitter?
The fellas at wall street aren't all innocent, I understand. But it's the machine that keeps the companies that provide us with the goods and services working. If we were living simple means is one thing but we are pretty connected to the workings of the Wall street for it to stop working. The very stocks of the companies that allow us to assemble and communicate in the name of this movement.
It's an easy target I understand but maybe realigning your target would serve the movement better?
You realize these protests are happening all over the country right, and in DC? Not just on wall st...
Aye Capitol Hill, but protesting the stocks of the same companies that provide you with your your windows, iphones and twitter?
Do you really think every american has a smart phone? And those that do, can they eat their iphone when they are hungry? will their landlord accept tweets for rent? Electronic goods and clothing costs (the things people try to use as excuses why people aren't "really" poor, ie 'they have an iphone!) have been declining by huge percentages since the 70s, between 40-60%, whereas necessities; housing, medical care, and education have been skyrocketing. You are using incorrect metrics to judge whether these people are well off, AND what's important in life (it's not twitter).
You are also ignoring the fact that it's going on in over 42 cities (already mentioned in this thread) not just Wall street.
And like I said, you're simply ignorant of what has caused food and fuel cost spikes, what started Greece's economic problems that are now threatening the euro, and the housing collapse. I'll give you a hint, it's the financial industry of which Wall Street is an intrinsic part. People are mad at the system, and Wall Street is one massive icon of the system.
Love the discussions here. You read some of the comment sections of the media outlets that are "covering" this, and it'll make you sick.
At the very least.... THE VERY LEAST, the youth and the entire working class is showing that their political apathy has subsided and they won't stand by with their heads in the sand and have "faith" that the government will take care of them. People are showing that they DEMAND to be heard, and they DEMAND representation by people with their interests in mind.
Also, I've heard numerous people loudly take ownership of their political apathy. They've admitted that they let this happen. This sense of responsibility (and the lack of that led to this situation) is what is spurring the movement on.
Fuse, I don't think you really are aware of the gravity of this. Marching in on Capitol Hill would be a futile endeavor. They're not really the problem. It's the bankers and corporations that own the government that's the problem. Our money system is privatized and in corporate control, not ours, not the government, the corporation's control.
These money changers, these robber barons, these human slime own the world lock, stock, and barrel. Nobody in congress so much as sneezes before the Rothschilds review and approve it. The last president to fight against the private central banks (The Fed is a private bank by the way, don't let the name fool you), was Kennedy and you know what happened to him. That's right, they assassinated him because he went up against the banks, just like Lincoln, McKinley, Garfield, and almost Jackson. Jackson evaded assassination and left office with pride that he could say "I killed the banks".
These people, everyday take our wealth and make our money more and more worthless because they make it out of nothing and backed by our indentured service to pay them back, so that we have to work harder and harder to afford what already belongs to us. The crops the farmer grows belong to the banks. The homes we live in belong to the banks, our streets, our schools, our utilities, our children, belong to the banks. They invent new ways to put us all in debt because they know they can control us if we're enslaved to debt. Our government doesn't give a damn about us, our rights, and our welfare. We don't have the money. The corporations are the masters, we are the slaves, and the government are the guard dogs that make sure we stay in line and keep making the corporations rich.
What these people are doing at occupy Wall St. is to walk up to their front gate, pound on the door, and shout at them "We know who you are and what you're doing! We will not stand for it anymore! We will be at your throat until you give back what is rightfully ours! We demand you return our government, our money system, our natural resources, our families, our future. We will not go away until you are in ruins and the people are free of the corporate tyranny!"
Check out "The Money Masters", "Zeitgeist The Film", "Money as Debt", and "The History of Money".
Greevar, I think you're going just a bit hyperbolic. This isn't a case of 6 evil mustache-twirling villains dictating the system. You could kill every billionaire alive and it wouldn't do anything to fix the problem, because it's the system not the individuals. The problem is capitalism.
At the very least.... THE VERY LEAST, the youth and the entire working class is showing that their political apathy has subsided and they won't stand by with their heads in the sand and have "faith" that the government will take care of them. People are showing that they DEMAND to be heard, and they DEMAND representation by people with their interests in mind.
Absolutely, just to add to this.
The other subject that Americans have become Apathetic to is the CONSTITUTION! This mess is partly due to that. The constitution in it's essence is a Libertarian one, it gives the government No power above the people. The government (according to the cons.) can't counterfeit money, yet they do it everyday. The only legal tenders that are allowed by the constitution are gold and silver. Paper would be ILLEGAL! it's absurd! the control of money is supposed to reside within the people, so that not one institution alien to the people could control it and dictate it's worth.
When we gave that up we gave up our Republic and our ideals.
We need to be mindful and respectful of the Constitution! The founding fathers ran away and fought against a system EXACTLY like the one that is trying to take control of the country today. One that lends itself to Oligarchic and greedy principles.
We have to shrink government, give the power back to the states and local governments, Tax wall st, end this current imperialistic militarism (that may sound redundant :poly121:) and protect our borders, instead of trying to surround Russia with military bases.
We are denying the the average american a fair chance to the Pursuit of happiness! I mean, am I crazy?!
Greevar, I think you're going just a bit hyperbolic. This isn't a case of 6 evil mustache-twirling villains dictating the system. You could kill every billionaire alive and it wouldn't do anything to fix the problem, because it's the system not the individuals. The problem is capitalism.
I'm not sure if it's Capitalism, i think it's more like Corporatism!
I'll agree to that as well. It's not so much the problem of Capitalism it's the problem within Capitalism. I hope that's not confusing.
American economy flourished in the 50's as a direct result of good honest work and capitalism. Look at the Motor City for god's sakes, it was an icon. What happened to Detroit now is the prime example of people failing capitalism due to greed and shortsightedness. Not it failing us.
Nah, I just think that maybe protesting against the actual Wall Street isn't quite what they should be protesting against. I am not sure they understand how it works really.
If it's against capitol hill or the world banks that's another story but publicly traded stock exchange?
You do know that stocks are used by the super-rich to manipulate markets, right?
You seem really out of touch with things, especially living in Canada... and these protests WILL affect Canada.
Corporatism it is indeed, and as is being nakedly played out in NY right now, Fascism.
Actually, fascism and corporatism are often one and the same.
Mussolini claimed that Italian Fascism's economic system of corporatism could be identified as state capitalism which he claimed was state socialism "turned on its head", which in either case involved "the bureaucratisation of the economic activities of the nation."
This is a good thread, the discussion is actually of intellectual value, so thank you all for that.
Now for a contribution: I recently read For us, the Living [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Us-Living-Comedy-Customs/dp/074325998X"]Amazon.com: For Us, The Living: A Comedy of Customs (9780743259989): Robert A. Heinlein, Spider Robinson, Robert James: Books[/ame], which is a Sci-Fi book written by my favourite auther Robbert Heinlein. This book is not so much a good book as it is a very interesting description of a possible history that leads to what might be considered a utopia. Heinlein explains the economical system of the 80's extensively and then goes on to explain how this system is not capable of sustaining a solid economy, and how such a thing could be achieved.
I know this is a very hypothetical, and fictional book, but it did give me great insights as to what is wrong with the economy at this moment, and a possible scheme in which such problems would not arise. The book is not very entertaining story-wise, but it shows his thoughts laid out plain and simple. (If you want to read good books by Robert Heinlein, go read "stranger in a strange land"). Anyway, just my two cents.
Greevar, I think you're going just a bit hyperbolic. This isn't a case of 6 evil mustache-twirling villains dictating the system. You could kill every billionaire alive and it wouldn't do anything to fix the problem, because it's the system not the individuals. The problem is capitalism.
That's literally what happened. Look up the Federal Reserve Act, Jekyll Island, Rothschild, and the other members of the money cartel. The Fed is a private bank and nobody knows who owns it. The Rothschilds, Carnegies, Rockefellers, JP Morgan, Aldrich, and a few others met on Jekyll Island in secret to create this central bank.
You think it's capitalism that's the problem? It's not, there's a handful of people that run the whole show. They've been working on it for the past 300 years to turn our attention away from them. Check out the video, "The American Dream". Everything in that video can be verified as fact (Aside from the silly pop culture references).
What? Why? What are you afraid of exactly? Not trolling, but curious.
This could turn into a civil war in the US. The media has told people what is important in daily events for so long that people can no longer realize what is important themselves.
Yes, this situation really could reach that point.
You might see the US become a warzone in the next couple of years.
American economy flourished in the 50's as a direct result of good honest work and capitalism. Look at the Motor City for god's sakes, it was an icon. What happened to Detroit now is the prime example of people failing capitalism due to greed and shortsightedness. Not it failing us.
It's a prime example of what happens when the rest of the world catches up. After WW2 most of the major societies where in shambles, except America who didn't really have to rebuild its infrastructure or manufacturing sectors after the war. That was an incredible head start on the new world order.
Sure greed factors into it, especially when the banks, investment firms and the captains of industry create one of the biggest house of cards ever created. Then demand that those they swindled clean up the mess and pay for everything while they turn around and push their greedy agenda even farther punishing the people they swindled (and the people who rescued their asses) even more. Disgusting.
The push to undercut education, get rid of worker protections, to get rid of environmental protections so they can abuse and polite like they can in other countries is amazingly disgusting. If the only way they can make money is to abuse people, pollute and rob people blind then they can go to countries that fully embrace that, but not here, not America and no one but a select few want that to happen.
The other subject that Americans have become Apathetic to is the CONSTITUTION! This mess is partly due to that. The constitution in it's essence is a Libertarian one, it gives the government No power above the people. The government (according to the cons.) can't counterfeit money, yet they do it everyday. The only legal tenders that are allowed by the constitution are gold and silver. Paper would be ILLEGAL! it's absurd! the control of money is supposed to reside within the people, so that not one institution alien to the people could control it and dictate it's worth.
When we gave that up we gave up our Republic and our ideals.
We need to be mindful and respectful of the Constitution! The founding fathers ran away and fought against a system EXACTLY like the one that is trying to take control of the country today. One that lends itself to Oligarchic and greedy principles.
We have to shrink government, give the power back to the states and local governments, Tax wall st, end this current imperialistic militarism (that may sound redundant :poly121:) and protect our borders, instead of trying to surround Russia with military bases.
We are denying the the average american a fair chance to the Pursuit of happiness! I mean, am I crazy?!
I'm not sure if it's Capitalism, i think it's more like Corporatism!
Actually, the government does not create the money. The Federal Reserve Bank creates the money and they are not a government entity, they are a private bank held by private investors whom no one knows who they are. The government hasn't issue any currency in this country since 1913 when the "Money Trust" got them to swallow the Federal Reserve Act and 16th Amendment.
There's nothing wrong with paper money, the colonists of New England used paper money that was not issued with debt and interest attached to it and they were doing very well. Ben Franklin was in England for a time and the King asked him how the colonies are prospering when England is suffering from the debt to the bank. He told him about the debt-free currency they use and the Bank got wind of it, lobbied the king to outlaw it and they taxed the legal currency (gold) out of the colonies until mass unemployment and poverty resulted. That is what Franklin said was probably the primary reason for the revolution.
Our money is created and controlled by a handful of banking dynasties that was crafted to keep everyone that wasn't one of them enslaved under a mountain of debt so they could have all the real wealth for themselves and get us to labor for them to provide it. It's a Ponzi scheme of global scale and they've been getting away with it for the past 98 years in America. Longer in Europe.
This isn't wild conspiracy theory, this is cold, hard, verifiable fact. They have done this, they are doing this, and they will keep doing this until we bust down their door and take back our freedom. George Carlin was 100% right they own us and it's our ignorance to that, and our apathy, which keeps us under their rule.
This could turn into a civil war in the US. The media has told people what is important in daily events for so long that people can no longer realize what is important themselves.
Yes, this situation really could reach that point.
You might see the US become a warzone in the next couple of years.
Let us hope it does not come to that.
I don't see that happening until we have prolonged levels of unemployment around 40% - I don't know the numbers but lately job reports have said the private sector has been adding jobs but public sector layoffs have negated any positive affect on unemployment numbers.
Because it euthanizes a movement when an established political party gets involved. Now this isn't the people, "its now the left" conservatives who would otherwise be with us can say.
If anything the movement needs to make sure that it is not connected to any established party.
You think so? I tend to disagree. I mean, what do we see of all of the hyper right wing candidates running for president? Romney, Perry, Bachmann, Gingrich, Paulenty, Huntsman(not really crazy compared to any of these guys), Santorum, and the other dude. Black guy who thinks all African American democrats are brainwashed.
Which one of these people representing the right wing have made any effort whatsoever to oppose the wealthy and powerful who've drained this country of its wealth?
Woodrow Wilson (D) was the one that was in for the Federal Reserve Act.
Clinton allowed the act that exported jobs to Mexico without assurances of creating a better standard of living. He also was in when part of Glass Stegal was repealed.
Obama has done nothing to go after the people inside wallstreet that helped cause the recession.
So, IMO, though the republicans may be more willing accomplices. The Democrats have done nothing to stand in the way.
I don't see that happening until we have prolonged levels of unemployment around 40% - I don't know the numbers but lately job reports have said the private sector has been adding jobs but public sector layoffs have negated any positive affect on unemployment numbers.
Well, certain groups are above 40%, but using U-6 (which doesn't count prisoners, which is a full 1% in the US) average unemployment is at 16%. The private sector has not been adding jobs in a significant enough number to influence the number. The public sector layoffs were months and months ago.
U-6 is what most of the world uses, so any time you've heard an EU country's unemployment figures at any time in the past, it was using U-6, whereas any American numbers you've heard are using U-3 which is much more favorable, and thus, why it's used.
So, IMO, though the republicans may be more willing accomplices. The Democrats have done nothing to stand in the way.
That's because it's all theatre and money is the hand inside each puppet's ass making their mouths move to say what pet issue they appose, while they all work together to fuck America's working class. Obama received hundreds of millions from the financial industry for his first campaign, and the expected billion dollar campaign he'll run in 2012 is not being covered by college liberals donating 5 dollars here and 10 dollars there. There is a very logical reason why his entire cabinet plays like a 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon game, only with 1 degree and it's all connected to Goldman Sachs. This is why all of his legislation, including this misnamed "jobs bill" (which is largely tax breaks) benefit the wealthy, while doing little or nothing to address the real problems.
Fun fact, as a rider on this "jobs" bill, he put in, with no prompting from any republicans, the right for university loan collection agencies to be allowed to call cell phones for collection purposes. Because surely, that's where we'll make up this deficit, harassing indebted mid-20s people in an epic period of unemployment.
That's literally what happened. Look up the Federal Reserve Act, Jekyll Island, Rothschild, and the other members of the money cartel. The Fed is a private bank and nobody knows who owns it. The Rothschilds, Carnegies, Rockefellers, JP Morgan, Aldrich, and a few others met on Jekyll Island in secret to create this central bank.
I have no doubt there are some shady individuals with old money corrupting the process, but you need to look at the rest of the world. If it were truly just some evil financial super villains, it would be constrained to the US.
Social Democracy was created as like a bandaided capitalism. Provide social safety nets but rely on capitalism for markets, innovation, and jobs. Yet in every country with strong social systems, they are experiencing strong rightward slides as their moneyed elite corrupt them and attempt to cut or destroy those social safety nets. Canada has Harper trying to destroy their healthcare system, privatize prisons and populate at the same rate as the US. The UK is attacking their formerly much cheaper than the US university system, and is in the process of privatizing their healthcare systems. The Nordic countries are privatizing public transport, electing more racist and xenophobic parties, and setting the stage for similar reactions. The EU is using the euro-crisis (which Goldman Sachs had a large hand in by helping Greece hide it's debt long enough to join) to force austerity measures (which have a horrible track record) and privatize public companies.
The proof that capitalism isn't working is all over the place, sometimes at the hands of some evil dudes (why are they always dudes?) and other times it's a very far reaching systematic problem without any one person to point the finger at. Here in Iceland, just a few hundred people hold 40% of all the cash reserves in Iceland. The former ultra libertarian prime minister who helped privatize all the public services is now the editor of one of the major newspapers, making a salary 7x what I do a month, and allowed to corrupt the journalistic process here much the same way Murdoch does in the US.
There's lots of conspiracy theories, you know, including the one implying that Ken was killed for not having a desire to authorize false flag operations.
Well Keith Olb is part of the machine. Because what he read IS NOT their official position. That was something submitted by a user on a forum. Then repeated by irresponsible media like Fox news in attempts to form public opinion.
The former ultra libertarian prime minister who helped privatize all the public services is now the editor of one of the major newspapers, making a salary 7x what I do a month, and allowed to corrupt the journalistic process here much the same way Murdoch does in the US.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, but just wanted to comment on this one bit.
As a Libertarian myself, I don't even know that guy, but I can already tell you he's no Libertarian. A Libertarian prime-minister is pretty much a contradiction in terms. I have no doubt that he billed himself as such. But you can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.
Remember, they called Bush a conservative, and Bill Clinton an honest man.
I'm not gonna convince a libertarian, but this is what is called the "no tru Scotsman fallacy". David Oddsson is the most libertarian head of state every elected and was every prominent libertarian writers wunderkid when he was in charge. He was allied with the actual libertarian party of Iceland, and his entire platform was "deregulate and privatize" and do that, he did.
But I realize the idea of a free market not working is an anathema to a libertarian, so let's not derail the thread about Wall Street, start a new one if you want to debate the merits of Libertarianism. You already you admitted you don't know about the guy. I do, and I know what libertarianism is. He was one, and his efforts failed almost as fantastically as the US's.
We're all part of the machine. We, on the forum are part of, or are most likely trying to be part of a machine that creates, much of the time, mindless, superficial entertainment.
There's nothing inherently wrong with that. Olbermann's in entertainment, yet he's actually been talking about the protests since they started, rather than functioning lock in step with the rest of the media and ignoring it.
That's not really the same thing. Those of us on this forum have an actual craft and skill. The fact that the only way to make a living off of it in today's system is to work on videogames for-profit does not mean we all subscribe to capitalism and want to perpetuate it and the ills it causes. I'm not gonna live in a cardboard box and preach at people walking by when I can sell my labor for enough money for a decent life for me and my family.
Whereas Olberman and Maddow actually serve a rather insidious purpose. They give an outlet for left leaning people without actually having an affect. They spend far longer going, "Republican did a thing!" than pushing any actual left leaning agendas. Highlighting the NY protests first once it gets to the point it's not gonna go away is a very easy move for them to do, but most media that Americans would classify as "left" on the air in the US is actually just the mocking of more right leaning things. It makes those of us against those right leaning things feel good, and we identify as "not like them" but it still serves the purpose of keeping us entertained without actually challenging anything.
I don't see that happening until we have prolonged levels of unemployment around 40% - I don't know the numbers but lately job reports have said the private sector has been adding jobs but public sector layoffs have negated any positive affect on unemployment numbers.
Real unemployment is around 30%, and it is climbing.
They don't report those who no longer collect unemployment as part of the unemployed tally...
Also, I will never understand the talk about political parties like they're worth something. Political parties are just different religions when it comes down to it. They serve no purpose other than to hinder our forward growth as a species.
I have no doubt there are some shady individuals with old money corrupting the process, but you need to look at the rest of the world. If it were truly just some evil financial super villains, it would be constrained to the US.
Social Democracy was created as like a bandaided capitalism. Provide social safety nets but rely on capitalism for markets, innovation, and jobs. Yet in every country with strong social systems, they are experiencing strong rightward slides as their moneyed elite corrupt them and attempt to cut or destroy those social safety nets. Canada has Harper trying to destroy their healthcare system, privatize prisons and populate at the same rate as the US. The UK is attacking their formerly much cheaper than the US university system, and is in the process of privatizing their healthcare systems. The Nordic countries are privatizing public transport, electing more racist and xenophobic parties, and setting the stage for similar reactions. The EU is using the euro-crisis (which Goldman Sachs had a large hand in by helping Greece hide it's debt long enough to join) to force austerity measures (which have a horrible track record) and privatize public companies.
The proof that capitalism isn't working is all over the place, sometimes at the hands of some evil dudes (why are they always dudes?) and other times it's a very far reaching systematic problem without any one person to point the finger at. Here in Iceland, just a few hundred people hold 40% of all the cash reserves in Iceland. The former ultra libertarian prime minister who helped privatize all the public services is now the editor of one of the major newspapers, making a salary 7x what I do a month, and allowed to corrupt the journalistic process here much the same way Murdoch does in the US.
The public sector layoffs were months and months ago.
Public sector layoffs have been happening every month, the last job report I heard was for August I believe.
I'm still optimistic about the future, visit your local hackerspace and you'll see the beginnings of the next technological revolution on the same order of the personal computer.
I'm not gonna convince a libertarian, but this is what is called the "no tru Scotsman fallacy". David Oddsson is the most libertarian head of state every elected and was every prominent libertarian writers wunderkid when he was in charge. He was allied with the actual libertarian party of Iceland, and his entire platform was "deregulate and privatize" and do that, he did.
But I realize the idea of a free market not working is an anathema to a libertarian, so let's not derail the thread about Wall Street, start a new one if you want to debate the merits of Libertarianism. You already you admitted you don't know about the guy. I do, and I know what libertarianism is. He was one, and his efforts failed almost as fantastically as the US's.
Yeah, I hear you. The thing is that everyone seems to be going off of different definitions of these terms. You see it all the time here when the Democrats want to do something, and then the Republicans call them communists/socialists. They'll even say things like "it hasn't worked for Soviet Russia, so it wouldn't work for us". Although no Democrat (that I know of) is actually advocating a soviet-style system.
All those definitions are being used differently by different people. Seems like 'Libertarianism', 'Capitalism' and 'Socialism' are no different.
Public sector layoffs have been happening every month, the last job report I heard was for August I believe.
I'm still optimistic about the future, visit your local hackerspace and you'll see the beginnings of the next technological revolution on the same order of the personal computer.
Right, but there was an ultra big one that marked the end of a specific stimulus program, and that was the one of a size large enough to dip the numbers more than a fraction of a decimal point.
Companies that have been in business for 25-30 years are going bankrupt out of nowhere.
Also, please stop giving importance to political parties guys. They're nothing more than a distraction and mean nothing. A working, sustainable system will never have political parties.
They want to use stuff like that against us so we just argue among ourselves while they take action.
Companies that have been in business for 25-30 years are going bankrupt out of nowhere.
Also, please stop giving importance to political parties guys. They're nothing more than a distraction and mean nothing. A working, sustainable system will never have political parties.
They want to use stuff like that against us so we just argue among ourselves while they take action.
This.
Way too many "isms" in society today. We are all the same. We eat, sleep, shit, and play (not in that order).
Yeah, my biggest current concern is how people actually give credibility to these ridiculous parties.
A political party is nothing more than a religion when it comes down to it. I support those who have faith however, but I will never support organized religion. It's useless and serves no purpose. Just like political parties.
What do you think would happen to Maddow, Ratigan or Olbermann if they brought on a corrupt politician, be it a D or R, then proceeded to be even half as aggressive with them as Cenk was when he was on air?
I don't understand what exactly you think they're doing that's insidious.
I understand exactly well what would happen to them in your hypothetical question, they'd be fired or marginalized. I am not incriminating them as people, I'm merely pointing out they are every bit as much of the bread and circus machine as Limbaugh or Beck.
The insidious part, is again, not them being evil double agents willfully duping the public, it's that their natural talent makes them perfect for the job of "left distracters". The media has been corrupted by capital, and capital needs a form of control, and entertainment is a perfect form. Capital needs someone to titillate without actually fomenting change. Sarah Palin is bad, is not change, it's funny, but it's just a distraction.
Income divergence is the inevitable result of an unregulated capitalist economy. After all, it seems to me that it follows fairly naturally that if the rich are allowed to exert the kind of control over the government that they presently do, they will encourage the passage of legislation that concentrates wealth in their hands, further strengthening their influence, and so on - a vicious cycle.
The ultra rich don't need us any more, they have overseas slave factories to sustain themselves. They are slowly draining the wealth out of the American middle class, all we are worth to them now is the capital that can be extracted from us. Once they are done with us and we are as destitute as a third world peasant and we have no where to turn there will be a final indignity, you will come to learn what it feels like to be a 3rd world slave yourself in the ever expanding US prison system.
Income divergence is the inevitable result of an unregulated capitalist economy. After all, it seems to me that it follows fairly naturally that if the rich are allowed to exert the kind of control over the government that they presently do, they will encourage the passage of legislation that concentrates wealth in their hands, further strengthening their influence, and so on - a vicious cycle.
It's no secret that the top 1% control more wealth than ever before. But the point could be made that there wouldn't be the top 1% if it wasn't for the government in the first place. You said it yourself, they pass legislation that puts wealth in their hands. Would there be a Haliburton or Blackwater without the Military Industrial Complex?
I don't see it as the top 1% corrupting the government, I see it as the government creating, and enabling the existence of, those top 1%.
It's really a symbiotic relationship. Just like Venom...
Also, please stop giving importance to political parties guys. They're nothing more than a distraction and mean nothing. A working, sustainable system will never have political parties.
They want to use stuff like that against us so we just argue among ourselves while they take action.
yes.
like i said before, democracy or presidential election is pretty much an illusion here. left and right are both sponsored by the same wall street, banks, other big corp etc. at the root of all of this is just plain human nature of greed for wealth and power. possible solution is to have more awareness like this and protest against such organizations and hopefully force them to stop their greedy ways, and also stop creating money out of nothing. no wonder US is the richest country, most of the money is actually debt ($14.8 tri out of $15 tri) because the money doesnt actually exist.
it is a false crisis created to collect even more money from the general public and funnel it to the pockets of the 1%.
anyways, it is definitely surprising to see so many supporters of this movement here in polycount. no too long ago you would have been labeled a tin foil wearing conspiracy theorist.
The police seem pretty restrained, it's hard enough to maintain order with people yelling and shoving cameras in their faces.
Protest, that's fine, be heard. Just please don't fuck with the cops .
Haven't you been paying attention? Shoving cameras in their face is the only defense those people have against the cops who have been randomly assault and arresting people for no good cause. They're finally holding back because they know if they don't, it will be all over the net for everyone to see.
Look let's settle down. These people aren't being mortared or shelled by artillery just as there aren't cars being turned over and shops set on fire.
It happens every time. A few idiots spoil it for everyone else. A few protesters are acting like assholes and a few cops act like assholes. Everyone cries bloody murder and brutality.
Oh on a slight tangent..
Listening to the young dudes from the protest on the satellite radio. It seems like a pretty self sufficient little community they have here with plenty of food, some doctors on premises etc. They use McDonalds for bathroom breaks, ironically . Seems it has been pretty calm. With a few assholes provoking the cops and a few cops not exercising patience. Other than that, seems pretty neat
The police started running into them first while they were walking. It felt..at least from the Camera's POV that the police were aggressive before the protesters.
Haven't you been paying attention? Shoving cameras in their face is the only defense those people have against the cops who have been randomly assault and arresting people for no good cause. They're finally holding back because they know if they don't, it will be all over the net for everyone to see.
Missing point much?
If I was one of the cops on the bikes, I would do the same, sorry. I'm not related to Anthony Bologna, the guy to face sprayed the girls, I'm some rookie trying to disperse the crowds, or joining up with my mates down the lot to which I was ordered to join up with.
Suddenly, people are making circles around with me, and pushing flashes in my eyes, and aren't giving me enough room to maneuver. Last I recall, USA wasn't Switzerland, or Norway, we're talking about US, where your average person, with will intentions and a short fuse could be carrying a shiv or pocket knife.
Personally, I'm all for the crowd, and the first 2 protest, the way they were handled was disgraceful, and said people should face consequences, but this is way too much. Not all cops are related to each other for Pete's Sake, stop thinking they're every person, who is a cop, even the peons are under some dark lords command before pegging them. Some of them as scared shirtless when they're outnumbered.
In other news, because of Chase funding millions to the NYPD on Saturday while arresting protesters on the bridge, I quit my Chase account and moved to a credit union.
Doing the same thing right now. Donating $4.6 MILLION (the largest donation in the history of the foundation) the same morning that 700 people are herded onto a bridge, then kettled and arrested for "blocking" a roadway that they wern't allowed to cross? Nope, not me buddy. Last straw. Credit union it is
Replies
[ame="
[ame="
http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/04/occupy-wall-street-protesters-are-demanding-something/#ixzz1Zql50Gkb
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/322156.php#322156
Only fear is a good portion of the people stepping up right now will be distracted and bought into a smart talker, someone who knows how to herd the sheep the way they want. It sorta happened with Obama in making great speeches about change and other stuff people love to hear. Regardless if you like the man or not.. any person somewhat intelligent knew that what he promised was impossible because... reality sucks. Good will and the golden rule have been getting the shit beat of of them by greed almost forever.
Anytime someone I talk to says they want a better president or someone to represent them.. I tell them to run for office. Just try. If we had as many people trying to rise up and join congress or run for president as we do protest about greed here.. we might actually have a govt that thinks like us. I've gotten to the point where I don't trust anyone who wears a fancy suit and says they represent me. That shouldn't be a job requirement.
The tea party movement is a failure because its the same thing as other parties. Smaller, but they still support people who have no relation to the public. Everyone thinks that having lots of money and knowing how to spin words to look good make for a good representative.
I always say congress has a pretty nice job. They get paid to argue, complain and blame others for a living. They don't have to get along with co-workers and can publicly call them out without any problems. if any of us were to treat our co-workers the same we'd either leave our job or be fired.
thats my rant. i'm from texas and neither nutjob conservative *although I do love my guns and beer* nor am I a liberal hippie/hipster. Would love a day when we can stop having to identify ourselves with a party and just say we're american and proud.:thumbup:
You realize these protests are happening all over the country right, and in DC? Not just on wall st...
Do you really think every american has a smart phone? And those that do, can they eat their iphone when they are hungry? will their landlord accept tweets for rent? Electronic goods and clothing costs (the things people try to use as excuses why people aren't "really" poor, ie 'they have an iphone!) have been declining by huge percentages since the 70s, between 40-60%, whereas necessities; housing, medical care, and education have been skyrocketing. You are using incorrect metrics to judge whether these people are well off, AND what's important in life (it's not twitter).
You are also ignoring the fact that it's going on in over 42 cities (already mentioned in this thread) not just Wall street.
And like I said, you're simply ignorant of what has caused food and fuel cost spikes, what started Greece's economic problems that are now threatening the euro, and the housing collapse. I'll give you a hint, it's the financial industry of which Wall Street is an intrinsic part. People are mad at the system, and Wall Street is one massive icon of the system.
At the very least.... THE VERY LEAST, the youth and the entire working class is showing that their political apathy has subsided and they won't stand by with their heads in the sand and have "faith" that the government will take care of them. People are showing that they DEMAND to be heard, and they DEMAND representation by people with their interests in mind.
Also, I've heard numerous people loudly take ownership of their political apathy. They've admitted that they let this happen. This sense of responsibility (and the lack of that led to this situation) is what is spurring the movement on.
These money changers, these robber barons, these human slime own the world lock, stock, and barrel. Nobody in congress so much as sneezes before the Rothschilds review and approve it. The last president to fight against the private central banks (The Fed is a private bank by the way, don't let the name fool you), was Kennedy and you know what happened to him. That's right, they assassinated him because he went up against the banks, just like Lincoln, McKinley, Garfield, and almost Jackson. Jackson evaded assassination and left office with pride that he could say "I killed the banks".
These people, everyday take our wealth and make our money more and more worthless because they make it out of nothing and backed by our indentured service to pay them back, so that we have to work harder and harder to afford what already belongs to us. The crops the farmer grows belong to the banks. The homes we live in belong to the banks, our streets, our schools, our utilities, our children, belong to the banks. They invent new ways to put us all in debt because they know they can control us if we're enslaved to debt. Our government doesn't give a damn about us, our rights, and our welfare. We don't have the money. The corporations are the masters, we are the slaves, and the government are the guard dogs that make sure we stay in line and keep making the corporations rich.
What these people are doing at occupy Wall St. is to walk up to their front gate, pound on the door, and shout at them "We know who you are and what you're doing! We will not stand for it anymore! We will be at your throat until you give back what is rightfully ours! We demand you return our government, our money system, our natural resources, our families, our future. We will not go away until you are in ruins and the people are free of the corporate tyranny!"
Check out "The Money Masters", "Zeitgeist The Film", "Money as Debt", and "The History of Money".
Absolutely, just to add to this.
The other subject that Americans have become Apathetic to is the CONSTITUTION! This mess is partly due to that. The constitution in it's essence is a Libertarian one, it gives the government No power above the people. The government (according to the cons.) can't counterfeit money, yet they do it everyday. The only legal tenders that are allowed by the constitution are gold and silver. Paper would be ILLEGAL! it's absurd! the control of money is supposed to reside within the people, so that not one institution alien to the people could control it and dictate it's worth.
When we gave that up we gave up our Republic and our ideals.
We need to be mindful and respectful of the Constitution! The founding fathers ran away and fought against a system EXACTLY like the one that is trying to take control of the country today. One that lends itself to Oligarchic and greedy principles.
We have to shrink government, give the power back to the states and local governments, Tax wall st, end this current imperialistic militarism (that may sound redundant :poly121:) and protect our borders, instead of trying to surround Russia with military bases.
We are denying the the average american a fair chance to the Pursuit of happiness! I mean, am I crazy?!
I'm not sure if it's Capitalism, i think it's more like Corporatism!
American economy flourished in the 50's as a direct result of good honest work and capitalism. Look at the Motor City for god's sakes, it was an icon. What happened to Detroit now is the prime example of people failing capitalism due to greed and shortsightedness. Not it failing us.
You do know that stocks are used by the super-rich to manipulate markets, right?
You seem really out of touch with things, especially living in Canada... and these protests WILL affect Canada.
Actually, fascism and corporatism are often one and the same.
Now for a contribution: I recently read For us, the Living [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Us-Living-Comedy-Customs/dp/074325998X"]Amazon.com: For Us, The Living: A Comedy of Customs (9780743259989): Robert A. Heinlein, Spider Robinson, Robert James: Books[/ame], which is a Sci-Fi book written by my favourite auther Robbert Heinlein. This book is not so much a good book as it is a very interesting description of a possible history that leads to what might be considered a utopia. Heinlein explains the economical system of the 80's extensively and then goes on to explain how this system is not capable of sustaining a solid economy, and how such a thing could be achieved.
I know this is a very hypothetical, and fictional book, but it did give me great insights as to what is wrong with the economy at this moment, and a possible scheme in which such problems would not arise. The book is not very entertaining story-wise, but it shows his thoughts laid out plain and simple. (If you want to read good books by Robert Heinlein, go read "stranger in a strange land"). Anyway, just my two cents.
That's literally what happened. Look up the Federal Reserve Act, Jekyll Island, Rothschild, and the other members of the money cartel. The Fed is a private bank and nobody knows who owns it. The Rothschilds, Carnegies, Rockefellers, JP Morgan, Aldrich, and a few others met on Jekyll Island in secret to create this central bank.
You think it's capitalism that's the problem? It's not, there's a handful of people that run the whole show. They've been working on it for the past 300 years to turn our attention away from them. Check out the video, "The American Dream". Everything in that video can be verified as fact (Aside from the silly pop culture references).
This could turn into a civil war in the US. The media has told people what is important in daily events for so long that people can no longer realize what is important themselves.
Yes, this situation really could reach that point.
You might see the US become a warzone in the next couple of years.
Let us hope it does not come to that.
Sure greed factors into it, especially when the banks, investment firms and the captains of industry create one of the biggest house of cards ever created. Then demand that those they swindled clean up the mess and pay for everything while they turn around and push their greedy agenda even farther punishing the people they swindled (and the people who rescued their asses) even more. Disgusting.
The push to undercut education, get rid of worker protections, to get rid of environmental protections so they can abuse and polite like they can in other countries is amazingly disgusting. If the only way they can make money is to abuse people, pollute and rob people blind then they can go to countries that fully embrace that, but not here, not America and no one but a select few want that to happen.
Actually, the government does not create the money. The Federal Reserve Bank creates the money and they are not a government entity, they are a private bank held by private investors whom no one knows who they are. The government hasn't issue any currency in this country since 1913 when the "Money Trust" got them to swallow the Federal Reserve Act and 16th Amendment.
There's nothing wrong with paper money, the colonists of New England used paper money that was not issued with debt and interest attached to it and they were doing very well. Ben Franklin was in England for a time and the King asked him how the colonies are prospering when England is suffering from the debt to the bank. He told him about the debt-free currency they use and the Bank got wind of it, lobbied the king to outlaw it and they taxed the legal currency (gold) out of the colonies until mass unemployment and poverty resulted. That is what Franklin said was probably the primary reason for the revolution.
Our money is created and controlled by a handful of banking dynasties that was crafted to keep everyone that wasn't one of them enslaved under a mountain of debt so they could have all the real wealth for themselves and get us to labor for them to provide it. It's a Ponzi scheme of global scale and they've been getting away with it for the past 98 years in America. Longer in Europe.
This isn't wild conspiracy theory, this is cold, hard, verifiable fact. They have done this, they are doing this, and they will keep doing this until we bust down their door and take back our freedom. George Carlin was 100% right they own us and it's our ignorance to that, and our apathy, which keeps us under their rule.
This the biggest 'conspiracy' on U.S soil tho right?
It's like when Kennedy issued the executive 11110 and then gets murdered before it goes thru. and then LBJ canceled it. The FED is the real problem.
so, END THE FED!
I don't see that happening until we have prolonged levels of unemployment around 40% - I don't know the numbers but lately job reports have said the private sector has been adding jobs but public sector layoffs have negated any positive affect on unemployment numbers.
Well thats fucked.
Why?
Because it euthanizes a movement when an established political party gets involved. Now this isn't the people, "its now the left" conservatives who would otherwise be with us can say.
If anything the movement needs to make sure that it is not connected to any established party.
http://occupywallst.org/
I totally agree. Check out the October 6th, 11:48am post (quoted here)
""This Site Has Nothing To Do With Us
Posted Oct. 6, 2011, 11:48 a.m. EST by OccupyWallSt
occupyparty.org
We are not a political institution.""
Woodrow Wilson (D) was the one that was in for the Federal Reserve Act.
Clinton allowed the act that exported jobs to Mexico without assurances of creating a better standard of living. He also was in when part of Glass Stegal was repealed.
Obama has done nothing to go after the people inside wallstreet that helped cause the recession.
So, IMO, though the republicans may be more willing accomplices. The Democrats have done nothing to stand in the way.
Well, certain groups are above 40%, but using U-6 (which doesn't count prisoners, which is a full 1% in the US) average unemployment is at 16%. The private sector has not been adding jobs in a significant enough number to influence the number. The public sector layoffs were months and months ago.
U-6 is what most of the world uses, so any time you've heard an EU country's unemployment figures at any time in the past, it was using U-6, whereas any American numbers you've heard are using U-3 which is much more favorable, and thus, why it's used.
That's because it's all theatre and money is the hand inside each puppet's ass making their mouths move to say what pet issue they appose, while they all work together to fuck America's working class. Obama received hundreds of millions from the financial industry for his first campaign, and the expected billion dollar campaign he'll run in 2012 is not being covered by college liberals donating 5 dollars here and 10 dollars there. There is a very logical reason why his entire cabinet plays like a 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon game, only with 1 degree and it's all connected to Goldman Sachs. This is why all of his legislation, including this misnamed "jobs bill" (which is largely tax breaks) benefit the wealthy, while doing little or nothing to address the real problems.
Fun fact, as a rider on this "jobs" bill, he put in, with no prompting from any republicans, the right for university loan collection agencies to be allowed to call cell phones for collection purposes. Because surely, that's where we'll make up this deficit, harassing indebted mid-20s people in an epic period of unemployment.
I have no doubt there are some shady individuals with old money corrupting the process, but you need to look at the rest of the world. If it were truly just some evil financial super villains, it would be constrained to the US.
Social Democracy was created as like a bandaided capitalism. Provide social safety nets but rely on capitalism for markets, innovation, and jobs. Yet in every country with strong social systems, they are experiencing strong rightward slides as their moneyed elite corrupt them and attempt to cut or destroy those social safety nets. Canada has Harper trying to destroy their healthcare system, privatize prisons and populate at the same rate as the US. The UK is attacking their formerly much cheaper than the US university system, and is in the process of privatizing their healthcare systems. The Nordic countries are privatizing public transport, electing more racist and xenophobic parties, and setting the stage for similar reactions. The EU is using the euro-crisis (which Goldman Sachs had a large hand in by helping Greece hide it's debt long enough to join) to force austerity measures (which have a horrible track record) and privatize public companies.
The proof that capitalism isn't working is all over the place, sometimes at the hands of some evil dudes (why are they always dudes?) and other times it's a very far reaching systematic problem without any one person to point the finger at. Here in Iceland, just a few hundred people hold 40% of all the cash reserves in Iceland. The former ultra libertarian prime minister who helped privatize all the public services is now the editor of one of the major newspapers, making a salary 7x what I do a month, and allowed to corrupt the journalistic process here much the same way Murdoch does in the US.
Well Keith Olb is part of the machine. Because what he read IS NOT their official position. That was something submitted by a user on a forum. Then repeated by irresponsible media like Fox news in attempts to form public opinion.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, but just wanted to comment on this one bit.
As a Libertarian myself, I don't even know that guy, but I can already tell you he's no Libertarian. A Libertarian prime-minister is pretty much a contradiction in terms. I have no doubt that he billed himself as such. But you can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.
Remember, they called Bush a conservative, and Bill Clinton an honest man.
But I realize the idea of a free market not working is an anathema to a libertarian, so let's not derail the thread about Wall Street, start a new one if you want to debate the merits of Libertarianism. You already you admitted you don't know about the guy. I do, and I know what libertarianism is. He was one, and his efforts failed almost as fantastically as the US's.
That's not really the same thing. Those of us on this forum have an actual craft and skill. The fact that the only way to make a living off of it in today's system is to work on videogames for-profit does not mean we all subscribe to capitalism and want to perpetuate it and the ills it causes. I'm not gonna live in a cardboard box and preach at people walking by when I can sell my labor for enough money for a decent life for me and my family.
Whereas Olberman and Maddow actually serve a rather insidious purpose. They give an outlet for left leaning people without actually having an affect. They spend far longer going, "Republican did a thing!" than pushing any actual left leaning agendas. Highlighting the NY protests first once it gets to the point it's not gonna go away is a very easy move for them to do, but most media that Americans would classify as "left" on the air in the US is actually just the mocking of more right leaning things. It makes those of us against those right leaning things feel good, and we identify as "not like them" but it still serves the purpose of keeping us entertained without actually challenging anything.
Real unemployment is around 30%, and it is climbing.
They don't report those who no longer collect unemployment as part of the unemployed tally...
Also, I will never understand the talk about political parties like they're worth something. Political parties are just different religions when it comes down to it. They serve no purpose other than to hinder our forward growth as a species.
The issue is ALL politics.
you're such a boss, poop.
Public sector layoffs have been happening every month, the last job report I heard was for August I believe.
I'm still optimistic about the future, visit your local hackerspace and you'll see the beginnings of the next technological revolution on the same order of the personal computer.
Yeah, I hear you. The thing is that everyone seems to be going off of different definitions of these terms. You see it all the time here when the Democrats want to do something, and then the Republicans call them communists/socialists. They'll even say things like "it hasn't worked for Soviet Russia, so it wouldn't work for us". Although no Democrat (that I know of) is actually advocating a soviet-style system.
All those definitions are being used differently by different people. Seems like 'Libertarianism', 'Capitalism' and 'Socialism' are no different.
Right, but there was an ultra big one that marked the end of a specific stimulus program, and that was the one of a size large enough to dip the numbers more than a fraction of a decimal point.
Also, please stop giving importance to political parties guys. They're nothing more than a distraction and mean nothing. A working, sustainable system will never have political parties.
They want to use stuff like that against us so we just argue among ourselves while they take action.
This.
Way too many "isms" in society today. We are all the same. We eat, sleep, shit, and play (not in that order).
A political party is nothing more than a religion when it comes down to it. I support those who have faith however, but I will never support organized religion. It's useless and serves no purpose. Just like political parties.
I understand exactly well what would happen to them in your hypothetical question, they'd be fired or marginalized. I am not incriminating them as people, I'm merely pointing out they are every bit as much of the bread and circus machine as Limbaugh or Beck.
The insidious part, is again, not them being evil double agents willfully duping the public, it's that their natural talent makes them perfect for the job of "left distracters". The media has been corrupted by capital, and capital needs a form of control, and entertainment is a perfect form. Capital needs someone to titillate without actually fomenting change. Sarah Palin is bad, is not change, it's funny, but it's just a distraction.
The ultra rich don't need us any more, they have overseas slave factories to sustain themselves. They are slowly draining the wealth out of the American middle class, all we are worth to them now is the capital that can be extracted from us. Once they are done with us and we are as destitute as a third world peasant and we have no where to turn there will be a final indignity, you will come to learn what it feels like to be a 3rd world slave yourself in the ever expanding US prison system.
It's no secret that the top 1% control more wealth than ever before. But the point could be made that there wouldn't be the top 1% if it wasn't for the government in the first place. You said it yourself, they pass legislation that puts wealth in their hands. Would there be a Haliburton or Blackwater without the Military Industrial Complex?
I don't see it as the top 1% corrupting the government, I see it as the government creating, and enabling the existence of, those top 1%.
It's really a symbiotic relationship. Just like Venom...
yes.
like i said before, democracy or presidential election is pretty much an illusion here. left and right are both sponsored by the same wall street, banks, other big corp etc. at the root of all of this is just plain human nature of greed for wealth and power. possible solution is to have more awareness like this and protest against such organizations and hopefully force them to stop their greedy ways, and also stop creating money out of nothing. no wonder US is the richest country, most of the money is actually debt ($14.8 tri out of $15 tri) because the money doesnt actually exist.
it is a false crisis created to collect even more money from the general public and funnel it to the pockets of the 1%.
anyways, it is definitely surprising to see so many supporters of this movement here in polycount. no too long ago you would have been labeled a tin foil wearing conspiracy theorist.
The police seem pretty restrained, it's hard enough to maintain order with people yelling and shoving cameras in their faces.
Protest, that's fine, be heard. Just please don't fuck with the cops
Haven't you been paying attention? Shoving cameras in their face is the only defense those people have against the cops who have been randomly assault and arresting people for no good cause. They're finally holding back because they know if they don't, it will be all over the net for everyone to see.
It happens every time. A few idiots spoil it for everyone else. A few protesters are acting like assholes and a few cops act like assholes. Everyone cries bloody murder and brutality.
Oh on a slight tangent..
Listening to the young dudes from the protest on the satellite radio. It seems like a pretty self sufficient little community they have here with plenty of food, some doctors on premises etc. They use McDonalds for bathroom breaks, ironically
Missing point much?
If I was one of the cops on the bikes, I would do the same, sorry. I'm not related to Anthony Bologna, the guy to face sprayed the girls, I'm some rookie trying to disperse the crowds, or joining up with my mates down the lot to which I was ordered to join up with.
Suddenly, people are making circles around with me, and pushing flashes in my eyes, and aren't giving me enough room to maneuver. Last I recall, USA wasn't Switzerland, or Norway, we're talking about US, where your average person, with will intentions and a short fuse could be carrying a shiv or pocket knife.
Personally, I'm all for the crowd, and the first 2 protest, the way they were handled was disgraceful, and said people should face consequences, but this is way too much. Not all cops are related to each other for Pete's Sake, stop thinking they're every person, who is a cop, even the peons are under some dark lords command before pegging them. Some of them as scared shirtless when they're outnumbered.
Another edit: the $4.6 million from Chase to NYPD was in August, where I was mistaken and thought it was more recent.
I closed my Chase and moved to a credit union.
Doing the same thing right now. Donating $4.6 MILLION (the largest donation in the history of the foundation) the same morning that 700 people are herded onto a bridge, then kettled and arrested for "blocking" a roadway that they wern't allowed to cross? Nope, not me buddy. Last straw. Credit union it is