Yeah. Except that no system is inherently broken. They're broken because they're run by people. Also, I like regulated capitalism in a democratic republic.. You missed three words that make this next part important.
I guess we agree, i just hate this defense of socialism. Socialized Failure is a form of socialism.
Capitalism is the ceaseless pursuit for more economic power. It seeks to acquire this power and concentrate it in the hands of the few so it can further cement it's hold on that power.
God... I'm speechless. Greevar THAT's CORRUPTION not CAPITALISM. :poly142:
In this thread we argue very much about whether or not government is too big, or corporations are the real cause of the problem. We almost wholly neglect that people, either believing themselves to be powerless, not giving a shit, or not being informed, haven't exercised their massive power, at least, until now.
The people feel powerless cause their SERVANTS in government act like RULERS and never punish the Masters that fund their Campaign.
I guess we agree, i just hate this defense of socialism. Socialized Failure is a form of socialism.
God... I'm speechless. Greevar THAT's CORRUPTION not CAPITALISM.
They're one and the same. Capitalism is a game that people play with our economy. The system rewards those who can block competition, form monopolies, and buy laws. It's a system that rewards cheating and bribery. Capitalism is just the modern version of a feudal system. A few powerful people own the means to production and they exploit the lower class to operate it for the benefit of their "lord" or employer.
And about socialism. That is not socialism. It's not even close. Socialism is the public ownership of the means of production. The people do not own the means of production here. The means of production owns the people. You've got it completely backwards. This is a corporate-controlled economy and government where the most powerful businesses own the government and the people. The government bailing out the businesses is not socialism, it's corporate aristocracy and crony protectionism.
They're one and the same. Capitalism is a game that people play with our economy. The system rewards those who can block competition, form monopolies, and buy laws. It's a system that rewards cheating and bribery. Capitalism is just the modern version of a feudal system. A few powerful people own the means to production and they exploit the lower class to operate it for the benefit of their "lord" or employer.
Sorry dood, I can't even argue this type of crap. it's not worth it, go do some FUCKING research, the system isn't flawed it's CORRUPTED. end of story. Fucking learned.
EITHER way you see it what is needed in this country is LOCAL BUSINESSES, CAPITALISM. REAL CAPITALISM. not this corruption but people like you keep missing the fucking point man.
I'm now sorry i acused GANEMI of being a Michael Moore Zombie. That's You.
I mean, read this and look at how IGNORANT IT SOUNDS.
Capitalism is a game that people play with our economy.
NO FOR THE LAST TIME THAT'S CORRUPTION and MONEY IN POLITICS!!!!!
that's what kills competition.
Real Capitalism works for everyone and you can't possibly blame people for being TOO RICH
what about BILL GATES? OPRAH? STEVE JOBS...
Did they PLAY WITH THE ECONOMY??????????
EDIT:
A few powerful people own the means to production and they exploit the lower class to operate it for the benefit of their "lord" or employer.
That's what Socialism Advocates. Because remember Who in the system would represent THE PEOPLE??? THE GOVERNMENT. get real.
Sorry dood, I can't even argue this type of crap. it's not worth it, go do some FUCKING research, the system isn't flawed it's CORRUPTED. end of story. Fucking learned.
As far as I understand it his argument is that capitalism sucks because it's vulnerable to corruption and the premise of the pursuit of self interest essentially makes corruption an ongoing force against the economy.
Which is a valid criticism of Capitalism but saying it's not a good economic system on the premise that it creates inequality and can be corrupted is pretty laughable.
Bigjohn: well, I'm sorry, I constantly have to hear the neo-cons push a hack sci-fi writer as the greatest political thinker in the world. I get a little upset about a political movement that wants to ruin my country over paying lower taxes.
As far as I understand it his argument is that capitalism sucks because it's vulnerable to corruption and the premise of the pursuit of self interest essentially makes corruption an ongoing force against the economy.
Which is a valid criticism of Capitalism but saying it's not a good economic system on the premise that it creates inequality and can be corrupted is pretty laughable.
It's bad because it promotes competition for a "grand prize" that everybody wants and will do anything to get. Capitalism encourages greed and greed's pursuits lead to gross inequality and societal decay, that is why it fails.
No economic model is perfect, that's impossible. Although capitalism is probably the worst. It's just a reformed version of feudalism.
Capitalists (i.e. "Lords") posses the means of production (e.g. land) and hire managers ("Vassals") whom then contract workers (serfs) to perform labor with those means to produce wealth that is subsequently passed up the pyramid to the Capitalist who takes his "share" of the fruits of their labor and then divides the remainder among his managers, and then lastly, the workers. It stinks of feudalism.
No, I'm quite certain that my point was that capitalism encourages greed and exploitation. And, any law that can be passed will not stop that from happening when it's quite clear that capitalism grants businesses the power to ignore or even corrupt those laws. Laws and regulation don't stop people from acting out in a deviant manner, they only attempt to discourage it. That's only as effective as long as the risks outweigh the gains.
Capitalism concentrates power. Such a system is doomed to exploitation because power corrupts and those that have power always seek more while fearing to lose it.
Capitalism will always fail because it drives people to put their own self-interest above all other interests at the expense of the many. It places the "haves" in conflict with the "have-nots". This drives some very destructive behavior. Capitalism is never about what's good for society. It's about what's good for the capitalist. It destroys nature and turns humans into workers, into instruments for the accumulation of wealth and power. Capitalists cash in on the activity of the exploited. The exploited can only make money from their own labor, so its easy for employers to pay them less than the value they produce. A core requirement of a capitalist society is that a large portion of the population must not possess sources of self-sustenance that would allow them to be independent, and must instead be compelled, to survive, to sell their labor for a living wage.
If we want to make this country better we have to eventually throw out capitalism and replace it with a system which prioritizes utility to the whole of society and not to just concentrate power in the hands of the few as is the inevitability of capitalism. In a competition, there are always those that will cheat to get ahead; to harm others to gain something for themselves. We need a system that puts an emphasis on the collective effort of the people to improve the lives of all people, a cooperative market instead of a competitive one. If I contribute to the good of all and everyone else does the same, well, we all benefit from a cooperative effort to provide what we all need. If everyone is working together to improve the human condition, then everyone is taken care of.
This unyielding support of capitalism is quite frightening and makes me think that the continued confidence in its ability to make society better is driven by an irrational belief that through capitalism, anyone can achieve greater prosperity; that it promotes some form of meritocracy. Some people actually hold out hope that they will some day become as prosperous as the the aristocracy does today. Which is just not the case. If this were true, then society would be moving towards more economic equality, but it's doing the opposite. Any system that provides the means to concentrate power is not a system that is exists in the best interest of society, but for those that wish to extract the wealth of the many into their own coffers.
How can a zero-sum game be good for society? For someone to "win" others have to lose and when one person wins, many others lose.
TL;DR
Capitalism is driven by competition and will always drive participants to exploit the system to their advantage. Therefore a cooperative economy must be established.
the real problem why our Capitalism isn't working at the moment is because the federal reserve creates artificial Interest Rates. This makes the market run on speculative spending. Meaning the market will sky rocket up and plummet all within a week. That is artificial growth.
the main culprit is Fractional Reserve Banking This let's the banks loan out as much as 90% of their reserves. This is CRIMINAL and LEGAL FRAUD. Meaning if everyone went to a bank and demanded their money the banks will deny them. Remember Occupy the Bank accounts?
Also, a lot of what is happening with the American Markets is due to the Huge amount of corruption in the LONDON market. Especially the hypothecation and the RE-hypothecation. That practice is CRIMINAL.
right now, the Hypothecation of debts in london responsible for the EU problems, this is why British Prime minister walked out of the negotiations because he wants to protect the loop holes. the debt in London right now is 1000% larger than the GDP. that is insane, that means their economy is floating in air.
Greevar you are absolutely right this form of CAPITALISM isn't working because it's been Moussilini-ed against the public.
Now a days banks can invest on anything.
this is why Health care sucks and is so expensive because it has been turned into a business. We need laws that illustrate what people should and SHOULD not invest in.
Our capitalist economy was very prosperous, remember world war 2? the indutrial power that was the united states because of the well regulated capitalist state managed to create something that could compete with Germany.
but when any group of people get together and plan the corruption of a system you can't blame the system, it is illogical. you blame the people.
Bring back Glass Steagal, end fractional Reserve banking, liquidate the debt, cut the ridiculous spending and jobs and local businesses will thrive again. The only thing these people want is the economic collapse of the dollar.
so that a new currency can rise and then have complete control of the interest rates once again.
the real problem why our Capitalism isn't working at the moment is because the federal reserve creates artificial Interest Rates. This makes the market run on speculative spending. Meaning the market will sky rocket up and plummet all within a week. That is artificial growth.
the main culprit is Fractional Reserve Banking This let's the banks loan out as much as 90% of their reserves. This is CRIMINAL and LEGAL FRAUD. Meaning if everyone went to a bank and demanded their money the banks will deny them. Remember Occupy the Bank accounts?
Also, a lot of what is happening with the American Markets is due to the Huge amount of corruption in the LONDON market. Especially the hypothecation and the RE-hypothecation. That practice is CRIMINAL.
right now, the Hypothecation of debts in london responsible for the EU problems, this is why British Prime minister walked out of the negotiations because he wants to protect the loop holes. the debt in London right now is 1000% larger than the GDP. that is insane, that means their economy is floating in air.
Greevar you are absolutely right this form of CAPITALISM isn't working because it's been Moussilini-ed against the public.
Now a days banks can invest on anything.
this is why Health care sucks and is so expensive because it has been turned into a business. We need laws that illustrate what people should and SHOULD not invest in.
Our capitalist economy was very prosperous, remember world war 2? the indutrial power that was the united states because of the well regulated capitalist state managed to create something that could compete with Germany.
but when any group of people get together and plan the corruption of a system you can't blame the system, it is illogical. you blame the people.
Bring back Glass Steagal, end fractional Reserve banking, liquidate the debt, cut the ridiculous spending and jobs and local businesses will thrive again. The only thing these people want is the economic collapse of the dollar.
so that a new currency can rise and then have complete control of the interest rates once again.
END THE FED!
I don't hate you, why hate me? I'm being completely earnest here.
I don't deny one bit that the fractional reserve is a big part of the problem (In fact, it is the result of capitalism), but it's just hastening the inevitable failure of capitalism.
Yes, get rid of the Fed. Get rid of fractional reserve. I've said this much before in this thread. Nevertheless, what you have left is still a competitive market that will only act in its own self-interest (and is compelled to act selfishly regardless if a capitalist's desires to put the public good over profit, because to do so would guarantee they would be replaced by a more profit-driven capitalist) to gain profit, regardless of its utility to society. Capitalism promotes profit over all other mandates, regardless if their products and services are not in the best interest of society. That you think that once the symptoms of the problem are treated, that the source will cease to exist is not very realistic. Cooperative over competitive, sustainability rather than growth, these are the ideals we should strive for in our economy.
For example:
Drug companies stand to make more money from drugs that only treat disease rather than cure it. If you cure it, then no one needs to continue using the drug. If you only treat the symptoms, you can extract profit from the relationship for however long the consumers can live on the drug. This is kind of behavior capitalism encourages and why it's a broken system.
There is lots of technology that would benefit society, but is left undeveloped because it isn't profitable enough or is a direct threat to incumbent markets' profitability (renewable energy vs. fossil fuel/nuclear energy). If it's more profitable to harm than to help, the capitalist will, without hesitation, chose the route to greater profit, because he must. If he doesn't, he will be replaced by a more competitive capitalist.
i dont hate you i was messing. <<< EDIT: [why can't i see smileys?]
no greevar i think I absolutely get where you're coming from but it wasn't capitalism that did this, it was man and greed. Look at cell phones when cell phones first came out it was ridiculous and pretentious to have one. Mainly because they were huge and expensive.
Nowadays they're relatively cheap! and everyone has one. That is capitalism. Competition benefits the consumer. Cheaper and cheaper products.
when it's good no one complains when it's being corrupted and used against the interests of the average man... it's evil.
no, this greed at work and only greed.
what you're describing is corporatism. not capitalism. honestly man these banks and big companies are to blame not the system they took advantage of, remember capitalism WAS working.
you don't blame the rape victim, you blame the rapist.
i dont hate you i was messing. <<< EDIT: [why can't i see smileys?]
no greevar i think I absolutely get where you're coming from but it wasn't capitalism that did this, it was man and greed. Look at cell phones when cell phones first came out it was ridiculous and pretentious to have one. Mainly because they were huge and expensive.
Nowadays they're relatively cheap! and everyone has one. That is capitalism. Competition benefits the consumer. Cheaper and cheaper products.
when it's good no one complains when it's being corrupted and used against the interests of the average man... it's evil.
no, this greed at work and only greed.
what you're describing is corporatism. not capitalism. honestly man these banks and big companies are to blame not the system they took advantage of, remember capitalism WAS working.
you don't blame the rape victim, you blame the rapist.
I think you're mistaken. You're thinking about the superficial results of it and ignoring the underlying incentives and motivations of the capitalist system.
Furthermore, it was technology and science that transformed cell phones from playthings for the wealthy into tools for the masses, just as it is with every other technology (e.g. phones, electricity, cars, mass transit, computers, etc.). You could argue that competition was the driving force behind those innovations, but they would have happened just the same without competition because necessity drives innovation, not profit. Just as the first hunters developed the bow and arrow, people create things to solve problems, because the problem needs solving.
Competition will always encourage people to seek out the dominant strategy because the goal is to win (check out the prisoner's dilemma). You can't win by being ethical or responsible when doing the opposite yields greater profit. The problem is replete in every facet of the capitalist system. It's inevitable and it's not just because of corruption. Capitalism encourages corruption; you can't separate the two. The fastest way to success is corruption. It's the nature of it all.
No dood it was supply and demand that progressed the growth. If people never cared about cellphones they wouldn't have picked up. Please, look at what you're saying you're hell bent on the same ideas that make sound.... frankly, blind. don't mean that as an insult but as a waker upper. the motivation DOES NOT COME FROM capitalism. it comes from people.
ALL are to blame even US who let these things pass by our government.
Capitalism encourages corruption; you can't separate the two. The fastest way to success is corruption. It's the nature of it all.
no dood NO. god damn it this is why i get angry are you fucking trolling? you do sound like moronic. Corruption comes from PEOPLE not the laws. JESUS, dood i don't wanna get disrespectful, but wow. stop and reason.
Capitalism is USED against people, capitalism CAN be used for people, just because it encourages competition, it doesn't mean it encourages CORRUPTION. stop and really think about what you're saying, you're not even taking my words into consideration NOR the PROOF i got you. I mean, for god's sake man.
SIGH
the reason corruption exists it's because wall st wasn't tried LIKE ENRON was.
EDIT:
and you can separate the 2 it's called LAWS, the ones they took away.
the motivation DOES NOT COME FROM capitalism. it comes from people.
Dude, this is what he just said. You're agreeing with him. He's saying innovation is not a result of capitalism or competition in such a system, it is a result of humans solving problems and being motivated to create new things for new purposes. You missed his point.
Additionally, I don't see what's so wrong with his mentality. OBVIOUSLY if everybody was just magically honest, good natured, and fair - then we wouldn't have so many problems. He is not denying that.
He's simply saying that capitalism does not encourage those things, it encourages the opposite via the resulting reward and profit. Which is true.
Corruption DOES come from people, not the system itself directly (as it requires people). That being said, if I design a game where the objective is to screw over all your teammates in order to win, are you honestly going to tell me that the game itself is perfect and it's only bad because of the people playing? That makes no sense.
Dude, this is what he just said. You're agreeing with him. He's saying innovation is not a result of capitalism or competition in such a system, it is a result of humans solving problems and being motivated to create new things for new purposes. You missed his point.
Additionally, I don't see what's so wrong with his mentality. OBVIOUSLY if everybody was just magically honest, good natured, and fair - then we wouldn't have so many problems. He is not denying that.
He's simply saying that capitalism does not encourage those things, it encourages the opposite via the resulting reward and profit. Which is true.
Corruption DOES come from people, not the system itself directly (as it requires people). That being said, if I design a game where the objective is to screw over all your teammates in order to win, are you honestly going to tell me that the game itself is perfect and it's only bad because of the people playing? That makes no sense.
Correct, in game design this is called "The Golden Path". It's the path that provides the lowest risk and highest rewards. If a system rewards deviant behavior the most, then that's the path the participants will take. It's dominant vs. dominated strategies. If the way of pollution, corruption, and exploitation yield the highest gains, that is what they will choose.
Dude, this is what he just said. You're agreeing with him. He's saying innovation is not a result of capitalism or competition in such a system, it is a result of humans solving problems and being motivated to create new things for new purposes. You missed his point.
Additionally, I don't see what's so wrong with his mentality. OBVIOUSLY if everybody was just magically honest, good natured, and fair - then we wouldn't have so many problems. He is not denying that.
He's simply saying that capitalism does not encourage those things, it encourages the opposite via the resulting reward and profit. Which is true.
Corruption DOES come from people, not the system itself directly (as it requires people). That being said, if I design a game where the objective is to screw over all your teammates in order to win, are you honestly going to tell me that the game itself is perfect and it's only bad because of the people playing? That makes no sense.
but capitalism isn't about that. you're misconstruing it, to fit the point. it wasn't designed to be that way, it was deconstructed to be that way.
He's saying innovation is not a result of capitalism or competition in such a system, it is a result of humans solving problems and being motivated to create new things for new purposes. You missed his point.
it is the demand that pushes innovation, that demand is part of capitalism. Supply and demand. I mean, look around you how much innovation and human hours are wasted to make the new tablet. what new purpose does that serve?
but capitalism isn't about that. you're misconstruing it, to fit the point. it wasn't designed to be that way, it was deconstructed to be that way.
it is the demand that pushes innovation, that demand is part of capitalism. Supply and demand. I mean, look around you how much innovation and human hours are wasted to make the new tablet. what new purpose does that serve?
Dude, you're confused. Supply and demand drive prices, not innovation. Need and utility drive innovation.
"it wasn't designed to be that way"
You're trying to claim insight that you can't possibly have. It's clearly based on feudalism, but with capital instead of nobility determining the class structure. It's a pyramid scheme, plain and simple.
I think you want capitalism to be that glorious economic system that they've been trying to convince us of, but it really just doesn't live up to the hype. If everybody is trying to get ahead and the fastest way to the top is by stepping on everybody else on the way up, then it's the system's fault for encouraging such bad behavior. Capitalism breeds corruption.
You're trying to claim insight that you can't possibly have. It's clearly based on feudalism, but with capital instead of nobility determining the class structure. It's a pyramid scheme, plain and simple.
and yet you defend you're view of socialism? see how short sided this is. I'm sorry i even bothered.
If everybody is trying to get ahead and the fastest way to the top is by stepping on everybody else on the way up, then it's the system's fault for encouraging such bad behavior. Capitalism breeds corruption.
This proves you haven't gotten what I'm saying. the economy was fine before the bankers came and got greedy, but who is to blame, those that let them corrupt it or the ones that did it? [please answer this]
It's our duty to keep the government in check. Not doing this has brought us to the same stop we found ourselves in the 1920's maybe possibly even worse, we'll find out soon enough.
but let me get back on point. The economy in the 1950's and 1960's was thriving, because it was more sound, and easier to pay back loans. and banks were in check. the 1% and 99% were much closer to each other and there was a thriving middle class, meaning people could invest make their own businesses. that is the example of Capitalism.
I'm not saying it's perfect but it's the duty of people to keep the laws in place for it to be balanced. If a system isn't regulated it doesn't work. And this is what's happening now.
Capitalism has proved it self against socialism or whatever other system to create a hire standard of living.
BUT [this is very important, i think]
If you are willing to argue that the system we have in place now IS capitalism.
you're wrong and i give up my argument.
because it's more of a corporatist plutarchy.
it's like arguing that in the UNITED STATES we still have separation of power.
Capitalism works really well in democratic societies because the people can fight corruption and corporate influence through their government (regardless of how powerless everyone wants to convince themselves they are) and decide what/how their government decides to invest in the public sector to the benefit of society as a whole. But this only works when people are educated and actually participate and the U.S. has some of the lowest political participation among western democracies.
If anything the biggest issue with capitalism is that it delivers prosperity so effectively that once people reach a point of relative stability they become lazy and complacent and forget that it is there role to ensure that free market principles stay intact. But the businesses who would look to attack the free market never become complacent, so the moment people let their guard down is the moment large businesses begin seizing control of the economy.
Just because you cannot simply put a capitalist system in place and forget about it doesn't make it bad. No system works without involvement and enforcement.
You honestly believe that capitalism works? If it can deteriorate like this because people are too busy trying to scrape together enough to live on to participate in their government, then it's not a very good model. The 150 years of corruption, pollution, and exploitation isn't enough to make it clear? The government can't keep these companies in check, they never could. The current crisis serves as testament to that.
Capitalism will always fall into decay as it's incentives drive people to screw each other over to get ahead. It's a cheater's system and no amount of law and regulation is going to make it work. The core problem with capitalism is that it is predicated on competition. Competition breeds corruption and exploitation. It's "winner take all" and you have to be the most ruthless if you want to win. That's a terrible model to go by.
It would be far better to be under a cooperative model where everyone works together to reach mutual goals and seeks prosperity for all, not just the best competitor. Capitalism demands growth. That's just not possible. It's raping the Earth of its natural resources and leaving behind poison and decay. Take a look at China and Mexico if you don't believe me. It is a system that requires unlimited resources and will eventually exceed this planet's carrying capacity leaving us all to die gasping and starving. We need a sustainable economic model predicated on cooperation and proper stewardship of our resources utilizing technology based not on profitability, but utility and societal benefit serving the good of all people equally.
If you can't see the logic in that, I can do nothing for you.
You honestly believe that capitalism works? If it can deteriorate like this because people are too busy trying to scrape together enough to live on to participate in their government, then it's not a very good model. The 150 years of corruption, pollution, and exploitation isn't enough to make it clear? The government can't keep these companies in check, they never could. The current crisis serves as testament to that.
Wow, dood. Wow. I am speechless. REASON.
give in to logic then all of us who are arguing could stand to gain something from each other. the proof is in the pudding.
what you're asking and talking about is progressive fairy tales, people who think they should vote on everything. like marriage and stuff. When everyone depends on everyone, everyone is enslaved TO EVERYONE!
America is About INDIVIDUALs and the INDIVIDUAL PURSUE OF HAPPINESS.
GO read your constitution and bill of rights and declaration of independence.
You have to truly care about yourself to care about someone else.
Could you please define what you mean by "works"? Because it sounds like you're making the inane argument that a utopian world-wide coop with no chance of ever being adopted somehow "works"
Could you please define what you mean by "works"? Because it sounds like you're making the inane argument that a utopian world-wide coop with no chance of ever being adopted somehow "works"
You said it, "works well in democratic societies", not me. I'm just reflecting what you said and challenging your reasoning. By "works", I mean everybody gets what they need and nobody is living in the street, involuntarily unemployed, or going to the food shelf. A good economic system should be able to utilize technology and science to assure that nobody will go without. In fact, technology can do that right now, but it's just that this damn capitalist economy and compulsion to compete that prevents people from getting what they need to live. Aside from that, I haven't see any evidence that what you say is reality.
You believe in capitalism like some people believe in religion, with blind faith. You seem to be convinced that it's some great democratic mechanism. Debating the validity of capitalism with you is like debating atheism vs. theism. I'm the atheist and you're the dyed in the wool theist. No matter how much reason and logic I throw at you, you keep saying the same refuted argument over and over. I'm not trying to troll, but you're accepting your beliefs without putting them to question and you respond to my arguments with rebuttals that you think are compelling and logical, but are just not very well thought out.
People think that this is some kind of recent crisis that has built up over the past 30-40 years, but it's been more like the past 150 years. This nation was built on good intentions and a desire to form a more prosperous society, but it was built on a flawed template that left opportunities for people who covet power to undermine the ideals of this once promising nation. They picked it apart, piece by piece, until it unraveled.
You guys paint me as this fool idealist with infeasible ideas. It's only seems infeasible because you're still thinking within the boundaries of how capitalism has taught you to think. You're taking my argument and trying to fit it into the slot that capitalism has made, but it doesn't fit. It requires a whole new mindset and new perspective.
Honestly, you have to see the parallels between feudalism and capitalism. They are the same, but one has a few "free market and free enterprise" platitudes sprinkled into them to make you think you're in control of your destiny. I'm here to tell you, you're not. It is not a free market and it never was. It was always a market for whomever can establish a monopoly the fastest and keep it the longest. It uses the utility of human labor to produce as many profitable goods regardless of their real utility to humanity, to life in general. Government can't stop it and thus the law can't stop it either.
The people can only stop it if everyone collectively cooperates in seeking out this singular shared goal for the good of humanity and all life on this little blue and green dot in a huge universe that doesn't give one shit about our lofty idea of capitalism. If we don't stop screwing each other over to get a bigger piece of the money pie we won't be prepared to avoid whatever catastrophe befalls us. Nobody will be here to say we died fighting each other over symbols of value rather than working together creating real solutions to ensure we don't disappear.
TL;DR
You say I'm nuts, I say you're willfully blind. We're screwed if we can't stop competing for arbitrary symbols of value and start working together on real solutions.
Do you realise John Galt is a fictional character created by a science fiction writer who had no background in economics and a fetish for strong father figures?
I define "works" as a system that provides the majority of the people in the society with the means and capacity to escape poverty and capitalism has done that exceptionally well.
Toward the end of Mao's "great leap forward" economic policies people in China were dying by the millions of starvation. There was no "middle class", having money didn't mean you went to the movies and drove fast cars, it meant your family didn't starve to death. Mao was replaced by Deng, who ushered in a new era of capitalist reform which has lifted millions of people out of poverty every year. A middle class that didn't even exist 50 years ago is expected to be almost half of the country less than 10 years from now.
In India, capitalist policies allow 40 million people to escape poverty every year and is helping tear down the caste system.
These are the results of a system that doesn't "work" to you? These are symptoms of, to paraphrase you, "the worst economic model"?
They picked it apart, piece by piece, until it unraveled.
WHAT THE HECK!!>?!?! GREEVAR!!! THAT'S CORRUPTION NOT THE FAULT OF THE SYSTEM.
Dude, you have to be trolling!!
please stop. oh and atheism is a contradiction of it self, because it's still a belief, making it a religion when people identify with the belief, get real. Think for yourself.
What in the hell does that have to do with the message? And yes I know it's a damn fictional character but the message is more sound than most "real" people. Listen to it.
[Can a mod please close this thread?]
The people can only stop it if everyone collectively cooperates in seeking out this singular shared goal for the good of humanity and all life on this little blue and green dot in a huge universe that doesn't give one shit about our lofty idea of capitalism.
And yet, it gives a fuck about yours???
and you call me BLIND??? dude you're delusional, to want to push communism in a democratic republic. i'm honestly laughing right now man, you keep disagreeing with me just to not PROVE yourself wrong.
you're stubborn you're not even reading what i'm saying and finally you're taking this too personal. There's cooperation in any system but it cannot BE FORCED ON PEOPLE!!!!! this is the 21st century dude let's evolve, not force people to a HIVE MIND!!!
I go to Christmas break and this thread turned into a shouting match If we can't discuss the issues honestly, without respect for each other and each other's opinions, we are already lost.
Atheism is not a belief system. It is a lack of belief. Calling Atheism a religion is like calling not collecting stamps a hobby. The fact that you think that's what it is makes clear you just don't understand anything I'm saying. You've chosen your economic god and I realize you will not entertain any other possibilities. I'm clearly wasting my time with you if that's how you think. So our discussion is over. Good day to you and good luck.
You really think that a system that allows anyone to go without the means to take care of their basic needs is acceptable when we could do so much more? I don't and I think we can do more. Capitalism clearly holds back a great many technologies and sciences (alternative energy, the likes of which could make energy free and abundant, for example. But that would kill the energy industry, they can't have that. It's good for us, but not for them.) that would be quite beneficial in eliminating poverty, homelessness, disease, and most crimes, but are not profitable enough or too prohibitively expensive to implement. I say again, what we need is an economic model that predicates on cooperative goals, necessity, and available resources to implement technology that will extend our ability to utilize what we have to ensure that nobody has to go without.
And Alberto, no that is not communism. You clearly don't understand anything about socioeconomic models.
Back to Bibendum: China and India are shining examples of the success of capitalism? I don't think you realize what you're saying. China and India are beginning to prosper because companies are outsourcing jobs from America (at the expense of domestic jobs for Americans) because labor there is cheaper, is less regulated, and their education is of higher quality. Those nations will reach a critical mass of prosperity and then the same crisis will occur there as it has here, because profit is the ultimate priority of capitalism. Perhaps even worse, it might go the way that Iran has with their uprising after tyrannical oppression pushed them too far. If a nation like India or China become wasteful consumers like Americans have, the human race is in dire peril.
You're committing a correlation vs. causation fallacy and claiming that capitalism is good because developing nations are improving under a capitalist model. So did America. We prospered in our development, but there comes a point where that progress halts and the self-serving incentives of the system overwhelm the growing prosperity of a nation. If we continue to follow a capitalist system we will be mired in a constant conflict between the profit motives that the system promotes and the mandate to serve the public good that our government is sworn to uphold. This will only result in the decay of the prosperity we have come to enjoy. Jobs and quality education will continue to bleed out to other prospering nations and the whole cycle will start again.
but greevar, don't you have to belief that theism is false to be atheist? calling yourself Atheist is in the same column as people who call themselves christians.
i mean, it may not OFFICIALLY be one. But, it's a philosophical belief which disagrees with another. and i for one am not religious i don't care for it. But, i respect religious people when they are humble, because if religion makes someone happy who am i to disagree?
And so, The need to have yourself IDENTIFY as something is just as equal.
You've chosen your economic god and I realize you will not entertain any other possibilities
You are doing the same, why do you exclude yourself, scrutiny?
judge yourself as you judge me. it's only fair you keep saying i have chosen it like religion and i haven't.
all i'm saying is that it has been corrupted by man and thus you can't possibly blame the system. you fail to get me, dood. And i agree with polygoblin this is just ridiculous.
calm down and let's give in to reason.
just like thomas jefferson said. "In questions of power, then, let no more be said of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
meaning LAW, and if we fail to do that then things will continue to be perverted, and we are more to blame. And don't say that people are busy scraping things together, that should be the wake up call.
I think dood in all Honesty, you need to rebel against yourself, I used to be a die hard liberal, Supported obama in '08. But figured out that the game is pinned against us. It especially scared me when they target special groups like blacks and latinos. That's wrong, why target them or US with a "special" message if we are all americans?
So, i don't want to fall into groups because that within itself is a collectivist mind state. Just like this country calls me , A Latino-American... what i can't be full american? lol
but anyway man, i realized this shit is getting too personal, detach and look at it from the outside looking in.
Replies
Who are you replying to? I don't see any contradiction in my comment.
I guess we agree, i just hate this defense of socialism. Socialized Failure is a form of socialism.
God... I'm speechless. Greevar THAT's CORRUPTION not CAPITALISM. :poly142:
The people feel powerless cause their SERVANTS in government act like RULERS and never punish the Masters that fund their Campaign.
They're one and the same. Capitalism is a game that people play with our economy. The system rewards those who can block competition, form monopolies, and buy laws. It's a system that rewards cheating and bribery. Capitalism is just the modern version of a feudal system. A few powerful people own the means to production and they exploit the lower class to operate it for the benefit of their "lord" or employer.
And about socialism. That is not socialism. It's not even close. Socialism is the public ownership of the means of production. The people do not own the means of production here. The means of production owns the people. You've got it completely backwards. This is a corporate-controlled economy and government where the most powerful businesses own the government and the people. The government bailing out the businesses is not socialism, it's corporate aristocracy and crony protectionism.
Sorry dood, I can't even argue this type of crap. it's not worth it, go do some FUCKING research, the system isn't flawed it's CORRUPTED. end of story. Fucking learned.
EITHER way you see it what is needed in this country is LOCAL BUSINESSES, CAPITALISM. REAL CAPITALISM. not this corruption but people like you keep missing the fucking point man.
I'm now sorry i acused GANEMI of being a Michael Moore Zombie. That's You.
I mean, read this and look at how IGNORANT IT SOUNDS.
Capitalism is a game that people play with our economy.
NO FOR THE LAST TIME THAT'S CORRUPTION and MONEY IN POLITICS!!!!!
that's what kills competition.
Real Capitalism works for everyone and you can't possibly blame people for being TOO RICH
what about BILL GATES? OPRAH? STEVE JOBS...
Did they PLAY WITH THE ECONOMY??????????
EDIT:
That's what Socialism Advocates. Because remember Who in the system would represent THE PEOPLE??? THE GOVERNMENT. get real.
Which is a valid criticism of Capitalism but saying it's not a good economic system on the premise that it creates inequality and can be corrupted is pretty laughable.
Well never have a perfect free market, people arent perfect discerning consumers.
It's bad because it promotes competition for a "grand prize" that everybody wants and will do anything to get. Capitalism encourages greed and greed's pursuits lead to gross inequality and societal decay, that is why it fails.
No economic model is perfect, that's impossible. Although capitalism is probably the worst. It's just a reformed version of feudalism.
Capitalists (i.e. "Lords") posses the means of production (e.g. land) and hire managers ("Vassals") whom then contract workers (serfs) to perform labor with those means to produce wealth that is subsequently passed up the pyramid to the Capitalist who takes his "share" of the fruits of their labor and then divides the remainder among his managers, and then lastly, the workers. It stinks of feudalism.
@Ganemi
No, I'm quite certain that my point was that capitalism encourages greed and exploitation. And, any law that can be passed will not stop that from happening when it's quite clear that capitalism grants businesses the power to ignore or even corrupt those laws. Laws and regulation don't stop people from acting out in a deviant manner, they only attempt to discourage it. That's only as effective as long as the risks outweigh the gains.
Capitalism concentrates power. Such a system is doomed to exploitation because power corrupts and those that have power always seek more while fearing to lose it.
If we want to make this country better we have to eventually throw out capitalism and replace it with a system which prioritizes utility to the whole of society and not to just concentrate power in the hands of the few as is the inevitability of capitalism. In a competition, there are always those that will cheat to get ahead; to harm others to gain something for themselves. We need a system that puts an emphasis on the collective effort of the people to improve the lives of all people, a cooperative market instead of a competitive one. If I contribute to the good of all and everyone else does the same, well, we all benefit from a cooperative effort to provide what we all need. If everyone is working together to improve the human condition, then everyone is taken care of.
This unyielding support of capitalism is quite frightening and makes me think that the continued confidence in its ability to make society better is driven by an irrational belief that through capitalism, anyone can achieve greater prosperity; that it promotes some form of meritocracy. Some people actually hold out hope that they will some day become as prosperous as the the aristocracy does today. Which is just not the case. If this were true, then society would be moving towards more economic equality, but it's doing the opposite. Any system that provides the means to concentrate power is not a system that is exists in the best interest of society, but for those that wish to extract the wealth of the many into their own coffers.
How can a zero-sum game be good for society? For someone to "win" others have to lose and when one person wins, many others lose.
TL;DR
Capitalism is driven by competition and will always drive participants to exploit the system to their advantage. Therefore a cooperative economy must be established.
the real problem why our Capitalism isn't working at the moment is because the federal reserve creates artificial Interest Rates. This makes the market run on speculative spending. Meaning the market will sky rocket up and plummet all within a week. That is artificial growth.
the main culprit is Fractional Reserve Banking This let's the banks loan out as much as 90% of their reserves. This is CRIMINAL and LEGAL FRAUD. Meaning if everyone went to a bank and demanded their money the banks will deny them. Remember Occupy the Bank accounts?
Also, a lot of what is happening with the American Markets is due to the Huge amount of corruption in the LONDON market. Especially the hypothecation and the RE-hypothecation. That practice is CRIMINAL.
right now, the Hypothecation of debts in london responsible for the EU problems, this is why British Prime minister walked out of the negotiations because he wants to protect the loop holes. the debt in London right now is 1000% larger than the GDP. that is insane, that means their economy is floating in air.
Greevar you are absolutely right this form of CAPITALISM isn't working because it's been Moussilini-ed against the public.
Now a days banks can invest on anything.
this is why Health care sucks and is so expensive because it has been turned into a business. We need laws that illustrate what people should and SHOULD not invest in.
Our capitalist economy was very prosperous, remember world war 2? the indutrial power that was the united states because of the well regulated capitalist state managed to create something that could compete with Germany.
but when any group of people get together and plan the corruption of a system you can't blame the system, it is illogical. you blame the people.
Bring back Glass Steagal, end fractional Reserve banking, liquidate the debt, cut the ridiculous spending and jobs and local businesses will thrive again. The only thing these people want is the economic collapse of the dollar.
so that a new currency can rise and then have complete control of the interest rates once again.
END THE FED!
I don't hate you, why hate me? I'm being completely earnest here.
I don't deny one bit that the fractional reserve is a big part of the problem (In fact, it is the result of capitalism), but it's just hastening the inevitable failure of capitalism.
Yes, get rid of the Fed. Get rid of fractional reserve. I've said this much before in this thread. Nevertheless, what you have left is still a competitive market that will only act in its own self-interest (and is compelled to act selfishly regardless if a capitalist's desires to put the public good over profit, because to do so would guarantee they would be replaced by a more profit-driven capitalist) to gain profit, regardless of its utility to society. Capitalism promotes profit over all other mandates, regardless if their products and services are not in the best interest of society. That you think that once the symptoms of the problem are treated, that the source will cease to exist is not very realistic. Cooperative over competitive, sustainability rather than growth, these are the ideals we should strive for in our economy.
For example:
Drug companies stand to make more money from drugs that only treat disease rather than cure it. If you cure it, then no one needs to continue using the drug. If you only treat the symptoms, you can extract profit from the relationship for however long the consumers can live on the drug. This is kind of behavior capitalism encourages and why it's a broken system.
There is lots of technology that would benefit society, but is left undeveloped because it isn't profitable enough or is a direct threat to incumbent markets' profitability (renewable energy vs. fossil fuel/nuclear energy). If it's more profitable to harm than to help, the capitalist will, without hesitation, chose the route to greater profit, because he must. If he doesn't, he will be replaced by a more competitive capitalist.
no greevar i think I absolutely get where you're coming from but it wasn't capitalism that did this, it was man and greed. Look at cell phones when cell phones first came out it was ridiculous and pretentious to have one. Mainly because they were huge and expensive.
Nowadays they're relatively cheap! and everyone has one. That is capitalism. Competition benefits the consumer. Cheaper and cheaper products.
when it's good no one complains when it's being corrupted and used against the interests of the average man... it's evil.
no, this greed at work and only greed.
what you're describing is corporatism. not capitalism. honestly man these banks and big companies are to blame not the system they took advantage of, remember capitalism WAS working.
you don't blame the rape victim, you blame the rapist.
I think you're mistaken. You're thinking about the superficial results of it and ignoring the underlying incentives and motivations of the capitalist system.
Furthermore, it was technology and science that transformed cell phones from playthings for the wealthy into tools for the masses, just as it is with every other technology (e.g. phones, electricity, cars, mass transit, computers, etc.). You could argue that competition was the driving force behind those innovations, but they would have happened just the same without competition because necessity drives innovation, not profit. Just as the first hunters developed the bow and arrow, people create things to solve problems, because the problem needs solving.
Competition will always encourage people to seek out the dominant strategy because the goal is to win (check out the prisoner's dilemma). You can't win by being ethical or responsible when doing the opposite yields greater profit. The problem is replete in every facet of the capitalist system. It's inevitable and it's not just because of corruption. Capitalism encourages corruption; you can't separate the two. The fastest way to success is corruption. It's the nature of it all.
ALL are to blame even US who let these things pass by our government.
no dood NO. god damn it this is why i get angry are you fucking trolling? you do sound like moronic. Corruption comes from PEOPLE not the laws. JESUS, dood i don't wanna get disrespectful, but wow. stop and reason.
Capitalism is USED against people, capitalism CAN be used for people, just because it encourages competition, it doesn't mean it encourages CORRUPTION. stop and really think about what you're saying, you're not even taking my words into consideration NOR the PROOF i got you. I mean, for god's sake man.
SIGH
the reason corruption exists it's because wall st wasn't tried LIKE ENRON was.
EDIT:
and you can separate the 2 it's called LAWS, the ones they took away.
Dude, this is what he just said. You're agreeing with him. He's saying innovation is not a result of capitalism or competition in such a system, it is a result of humans solving problems and being motivated to create new things for new purposes. You missed his point.
Additionally, I don't see what's so wrong with his mentality. OBVIOUSLY if everybody was just magically honest, good natured, and fair - then we wouldn't have so many problems. He is not denying that.
He's simply saying that capitalism does not encourage those things, it encourages the opposite via the resulting reward and profit. Which is true.
Corruption DOES come from people, not the system itself directly (as it requires people). That being said, if I design a game where the objective is to screw over all your teammates in order to win, are you honestly going to tell me that the game itself is perfect and it's only bad because of the people playing? That makes no sense.
Correct, in game design this is called "The Golden Path". It's the path that provides the lowest risk and highest rewards. If a system rewards deviant behavior the most, then that's the path the participants will take. It's dominant vs. dominated strategies. If the way of pollution, corruption, and exploitation yield the highest gains, that is what they will choose.
Example: The Prisoner's Dilemma.
but capitalism isn't about that. you're misconstruing it, to fit the point. it wasn't designed to be that way, it was deconstructed to be that way.
it is the demand that pushes innovation, that demand is part of capitalism. Supply and demand. I mean, look around you how much innovation and human hours are wasted to make the new tablet. what new purpose does that serve?
Dude, you're confused. Supply and demand drive prices, not innovation. Need and utility drive innovation.
"it wasn't designed to be that way"
You're trying to claim insight that you can't possibly have. It's clearly based on feudalism, but with capital instead of nobility determining the class structure. It's a pyramid scheme, plain and simple.
I think you want capitalism to be that glorious economic system that they've been trying to convince us of, but it really just doesn't live up to the hype. If everybody is trying to get ahead and the fastest way to the top is by stepping on everybody else on the way up, then it's the system's fault for encouraging such bad behavior. Capitalism breeds corruption.
and yet you defend you're view of socialism? see how short sided this is. I'm sorry i even bothered.
This proves you haven't gotten what I'm saying. the economy was fine before the bankers came and got greedy, but who is to blame, those that let them corrupt it or the ones that did it? [please answer this]
It's our duty to keep the government in check. Not doing this has brought us to the same stop we found ourselves in the 1920's maybe possibly even worse, we'll find out soon enough.
but let me get back on point. The economy in the 1950's and 1960's was thriving, because it was more sound, and easier to pay back loans. and banks were in check. the 1% and 99% were much closer to each other and there was a thriving middle class, meaning people could invest make their own businesses. that is the example of Capitalism.
I'm not saying it's perfect but it's the duty of people to keep the laws in place for it to be balanced. If a system isn't regulated it doesn't work. And this is what's happening now.
Capitalism has proved it self against socialism or whatever other system to create a hire standard of living.
BUT [this is very important, i think]
If you are willing to argue that the system we have in place now IS capitalism.
you're wrong and i give up my argument.
because it's more of a corporatist plutarchy.
it's like arguing that in the UNITED STATES we still have separation of power.
If anything the biggest issue with capitalism is that it delivers prosperity so effectively that once people reach a point of relative stability they become lazy and complacent and forget that it is there role to ensure that free market principles stay intact. But the businesses who would look to attack the free market never become complacent, so the moment people let their guard down is the moment large businesses begin seizing control of the economy.
Just because you cannot simply put a capitalist system in place and forget about it doesn't make it bad. No system works without involvement and enforcement.
Capitalism will always fall into decay as it's incentives drive people to screw each other over to get ahead. It's a cheater's system and no amount of law and regulation is going to make it work. The core problem with capitalism is that it is predicated on competition. Competition breeds corruption and exploitation. It's "winner take all" and you have to be the most ruthless if you want to win. That's a terrible model to go by.
It would be far better to be under a cooperative model where everyone works together to reach mutual goals and seeks prosperity for all, not just the best competitor. Capitalism demands growth. That's just not possible. It's raping the Earth of its natural resources and leaving behind poison and decay. Take a look at China and Mexico if you don't believe me. It is a system that requires unlimited resources and will eventually exceed this planet's carrying capacity leaving us all to die gasping and starving. We need a sustainable economic model predicated on cooperation and proper stewardship of our resources utilizing technology based not on profitability, but utility and societal benefit serving the good of all people equally.
If you can't see the logic in that, I can do nothing for you.
Wow, dood. Wow. I am speechless. REASON.
give in to logic then all of us who are arguing could stand to gain something from each other. the proof is in the pudding.
what you're asking and talking about is progressive fairy tales, people who think they should vote on everything. like marriage and stuff. When everyone depends on everyone, everyone is enslaved TO EVERYONE!
America is About INDIVIDUALs and the INDIVIDUAL PURSUE OF HAPPINESS.
GO read your constitution and bill of rights and declaration of independence.
You have to truly care about yourself to care about someone else.
I exit with Mr.John Galt.
[ame="
Hey bibendum, Don't worry, he's talking about that perfect system called Communism, for hive minds.
You said it, "works well in democratic societies", not me. I'm just reflecting what you said and challenging your reasoning. By "works", I mean everybody gets what they need and nobody is living in the street, involuntarily unemployed, or going to the food shelf. A good economic system should be able to utilize technology and science to assure that nobody will go without. In fact, technology can do that right now, but it's just that this damn capitalist economy and compulsion to compete that prevents people from getting what they need to live. Aside from that, I haven't see any evidence that what you say is reality.
@Alberto
You believe in capitalism like some people believe in religion, with blind faith. You seem to be convinced that it's some great democratic mechanism. Debating the validity of capitalism with you is like debating atheism vs. theism. I'm the atheist and you're the dyed in the wool theist. No matter how much reason and logic I throw at you, you keep saying the same refuted argument over and over. I'm not trying to troll, but you're accepting your beliefs without putting them to question and you respond to my arguments with rebuttals that you think are compelling and logical, but are just not very well thought out.
People think that this is some kind of recent crisis that has built up over the past 30-40 years, but it's been more like the past 150 years. This nation was built on good intentions and a desire to form a more prosperous society, but it was built on a flawed template that left opportunities for people who covet power to undermine the ideals of this once promising nation. They picked it apart, piece by piece, until it unraveled.
You guys paint me as this fool idealist with infeasible ideas. It's only seems infeasible because you're still thinking within the boundaries of how capitalism has taught you to think. You're taking my argument and trying to fit it into the slot that capitalism has made, but it doesn't fit. It requires a whole new mindset and new perspective.
Honestly, you have to see the parallels between feudalism and capitalism. They are the same, but one has a few "free market and free enterprise" platitudes sprinkled into them to make you think you're in control of your destiny. I'm here to tell you, you're not. It is not a free market and it never was. It was always a market for whomever can establish a monopoly the fastest and keep it the longest. It uses the utility of human labor to produce as many profitable goods regardless of their real utility to humanity, to life in general. Government can't stop it and thus the law can't stop it either.
The people can only stop it if everyone collectively cooperates in seeking out this singular shared goal for the good of humanity and all life on this little blue and green dot in a huge universe that doesn't give one shit about our lofty idea of capitalism. If we don't stop screwing each other over to get a bigger piece of the money pie we won't be prepared to avoid whatever catastrophe befalls us. Nobody will be here to say we died fighting each other over symbols of value rather than working together creating real solutions to ensure we don't disappear.
TL;DR
You say I'm nuts, I say you're willfully blind. We're screwed if we can't stop competing for arbitrary symbols of value and start working together on real solutions.
Do you realise John Galt is a fictional character created by a science fiction writer who had no background in economics and a fetish for strong father figures?
Toward the end of Mao's "great leap forward" economic policies people in China were dying by the millions of starvation. There was no "middle class", having money didn't mean you went to the movies and drove fast cars, it meant your family didn't starve to death. Mao was replaced by Deng, who ushered in a new era of capitalist reform which has lifted millions of people out of poverty every year. A middle class that didn't even exist 50 years ago is expected to be almost half of the country less than 10 years from now.
In India, capitalist policies allow 40 million people to escape poverty every year and is helping tear down the caste system.
These are the results of a system that doesn't "work" to you? These are symptoms of, to paraphrase you, "the worst economic model"?
WHAT THE HECK!!>?!?! GREEVAR!!! THAT'S CORRUPTION NOT THE FAULT OF THE SYSTEM.
Dude, you have to be trolling!!
please stop. oh and atheism is a contradiction of it self, because it's still a belief, making it a religion when people identify with the belief, get real. Think for yourself.
I honestly don't think you know what Logic is.
@sprunghunt
What in the hell does that have to do with the message? And yes I know it's a damn fictional character but the message is more sound than most "real" people. Listen to it.
[Can a mod please close this thread?]
And yet, it gives a fuck about yours???
and you call me BLIND??? dude you're delusional, to want to push communism in a democratic republic. i'm honestly laughing right now man, you keep disagreeing with me just to not PROVE yourself wrong.
you're stubborn you're not even reading what i'm saying and finally you're taking this too personal. There's cooperation in any system but it cannot BE FORCED ON PEOPLE!!!!! this is the 21st century dude let's evolve, not force people to a HIVE MIND!!!
Saw this video. Thought it was cool.
[ame="
In Greed we Trust. Amen.
Atheism is not a belief system. It is a lack of belief. Calling Atheism a religion is like calling not collecting stamps a hobby. The fact that you think that's what it is makes clear you just don't understand anything I'm saying. You've chosen your economic god and I realize you will not entertain any other possibilities. I'm clearly wasting my time with you if that's how you think. So our discussion is over. Good day to you and good luck.
@Bibendum
You really think that a system that allows anyone to go without the means to take care of their basic needs is acceptable when we could do so much more? I don't and I think we can do more. Capitalism clearly holds back a great many technologies and sciences (alternative energy, the likes of which could make energy free and abundant, for example. But that would kill the energy industry, they can't have that. It's good for us, but not for them.) that would be quite beneficial in eliminating poverty, homelessness, disease, and most crimes, but are not profitable enough or too prohibitively expensive to implement. I say again, what we need is an economic model that predicates on cooperative goals, necessity, and available resources to implement technology that will extend our ability to utilize what we have to ensure that nobody has to go without.
And Alberto, no that is not communism. You clearly don't understand anything about socioeconomic models.
Back to Bibendum: China and India are shining examples of the success of capitalism? I don't think you realize what you're saying. China and India are beginning to prosper because companies are outsourcing jobs from America (at the expense of domestic jobs for Americans) because labor there is cheaper, is less regulated, and their education is of higher quality. Those nations will reach a critical mass of prosperity and then the same crisis will occur there as it has here, because profit is the ultimate priority of capitalism. Perhaps even worse, it might go the way that Iran has with their uprising after tyrannical oppression pushed them too far. If a nation like India or China become wasteful consumers like Americans have, the human race is in dire peril.
You're committing a correlation vs. causation fallacy and claiming that capitalism is good because developing nations are improving under a capitalist model. So did America. We prospered in our development, but there comes a point where that progress halts and the self-serving incentives of the system overwhelm the growing prosperity of a nation. If we continue to follow a capitalist system we will be mired in a constant conflict between the profit motives that the system promotes and the mandate to serve the public good that our government is sworn to uphold. This will only result in the decay of the prosperity we have come to enjoy. Jobs and quality education will continue to bleed out to other prospering nations and the whole cycle will start again.
i mean, it may not OFFICIALLY be one. But, it's a philosophical belief which disagrees with another. and i for one am not religious i don't care for it. But, i respect religious people when they are humble, because if religion makes someone happy who am i to disagree?
And so, The need to have yourself IDENTIFY as something is just as equal.
You are doing the same, why do you exclude yourself, scrutiny?
judge yourself as you judge me. it's only fair you keep saying i have chosen it like religion and i haven't.
all i'm saying is that it has been corrupted by man and thus you can't possibly blame the system. you fail to get me, dood. And i agree with polygoblin this is just ridiculous.
calm down and let's give in to reason.
just like thomas jefferson said.
"In questions of power, then, let no more be said of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
meaning LAW, and if we fail to do that then things will continue to be perverted, and we are more to blame. And don't say that people are busy scraping things together, that should be the wake up call.
I think dood in all Honesty, you need to rebel against yourself, I used to be a die hard liberal, Supported obama in '08. But figured out that the game is pinned against us. It especially scared me when they target special groups like blacks and latinos. That's wrong, why target them or US with a "special" message if we are all americans?
So, i don't want to fall into groups because that within itself is a collectivist mind state. Just like this country calls me , A Latino-American... what i can't be full american? lol
but anyway man, i realized this shit is getting too personal, detach and look at it from the outside looking in.
You'll gain a lot more. Peace.
How would you know you're an Atheist if religion didn't exist?
[ame="
This is why we can't have nice things.