I can't believe everyone is waking up, waking up from this corporate culture of self that has been forced upon us as corporations turn society itself into a commodity.
my dad told me an interesting thing the other day, i'm pretty sure you can see the relevence here.
"if you owe the bank £1,000 you're in trouble. if you owe the bank £1,000,000 then the bank is in trouble".
what he meant by that, is that banks can and will use any and all means to get the money owed to them by "little people", but when the big people owe the bank money, it's in the banks interest to just brush it to the side, pretend it doesn't exist...
We need to kill off the Fed and revoke all corporate charters. Let them do business with full liability and zero political power by making it a felony in line with treason to give money or other monied incentives to government candidates, incumbents, and former legislators.
We also need to get rid of Fractional Reserve Banking. They are literally lending money that doesn't exist.
We need to get rid of the interest based economy, it's not something we need. It's really just a tool to enslave us with debt making us labor to pay off loans that most can never get over. It should be replaced with a non-interest money system. Our forefathers were doing it before King George outlawed it (while taking legal currency away with huge taxes to pay the war debts from the war with France, which incidentally was also in debt to the same banks for the same reason) at the Bank's behest creating massive poverty and unemployment, which sparked the American Revolution.
We need to kill off the Fed and revoke all corporate charters. Let them do business with full liability and zero political power by making it a felony in line with treason to give money or other monied incentives to government candidates, incumbents, and former legislators.
We also need to get rid of Fractional Reserve Banking. They are literally lending money that doesn't exist.
We need to get rid of the interest based economy, it's not something we need. It's really just a tool to enslave us with debt making us labor to pay off loans that most can never get over. It should be replaced with a non-interest money system. Our forefathers were doing it before King George outlawed it (while taking legal currency away with huge taxes to pay the war debts from the war with France, which incidentally was also in debt to the same banks for the same reason) at the Bank's behest creating massive poverty and unemployment, which sparked the American Revolution.
It's the loaning of money at interest that is the primary cause for prices to rise and make things that should be affordable become unaffordable with out loans. Think about it, as loans have become larger and easier to get, things like college tuition and housing prices have risen astronomically. The banks create nothing but debt. Commerce and industry do not need these money changers in order to move ahead. This system forces the lowest financial class of Americans to toil endlessly to pay back debts that were created from nothing to line the pockets of bankers who produce nothing of value, but take everything of value from us.
Anyone who claims loaning at interest is necessary is either ignorant, insane, or in on the scam. Some try to justify it by claiming they take a "risk" when they loan money. What risk? They make these loans knowing full-well that if the debtors don't or can't pay back the loans, the income tax system they helped set up (which is why we have income tax) will cover the losses.
mostly true, but you have to be careful to pinpoint interest rates as the source of inflation, there are many other factors that cause prices to increase over time the main one being demand.
EDIT Its all about balance, borrowing money isnt necessarily bad, in india there was a microlending scheme that loaned out small amounts of money (US$200) to help sole proprietors with their business at very low rates and this worked incredibly well for a while, but as the market for such loans grew, lenders got greedy and people got risky leading to bad practices on both sides of the loan and the whole thing has turned to shit.
/EDIT
There is another way to operate however.. never borrow money spend what you earn, invest with what you have not what you can borrow. And the core of it all.. save money, this way the interest rate works for you not against you. I dont have credit cards or loans the money I spend is my own I do not have an overdraft facility at my bank. The only bugger is right now the interest rate is so low I dont see any benefit but at the same time Im not getting ripped off.
EDIT
Interestingly enough, Islam prohibits the concept of "interest" when lending money.. .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking <- explains it alot better than I ever could..
/EDIT
mostly true, but you have to be careful to pinpoint interest rates as the source of inflation, there are many other factors that cause prices to increase over time the main one being demand.
EDIT Its all about balance, borrowing money isnt necessarily bad, in india there was a microlending scheme that loaned out small amounts of money (US$200) to help sole proprietors with their business at very low rates and this worked incredibly well for a while, but as the market for such loans grew, lenders got greedy and people got risky leading to bad practices on both sides of the loan and the whole thing has turned to shit.
/EDIT
There is another way to operate however.. never borrow money spend what you earn, invest with what you have not what you can borrow. And the core of it all.. save money, this way the interest rate works for you not against you. I dont have credit cards or loans the money I spend is my own I do not have an overdraft facility at my bank. The only bugger is right now the interest rate is so low I dont see any benefit but at the same time Im not getting ripped off.
EDIT
Interestingly enough, Islam prohibits the concept of "interest" when lending money.. .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking <- explains it alot better than I ever could..
/EDIT
What I said is 100% true, but it's not just interest that causes inflation (though it is a huge part of it). Interest is just one component in the system. You see, banks loan out money that doesn't exist because all money is backed by debt. Your promise to pay the loan is where the bank gets the capital to loan to you in the first place. They charge interest because there has to be more debt than there is money in circulation, because money is backed by debt. They use interest to make money, but it also sustains the system as well. If they didn't create the money out of nothing (a finite money supply) and still charged interest on loans, eventually they would have all the money, which would make it worthless. All of this causes inflation. That other stuff you mention is just a bunch of misinformation they tell you so you don't figure out how it really works. The truth is, the central banks of the world create every boom and bust that has been going on since there was a central bank.
Since they create money out of nothing but your debt, then charge interest on that, what do you think would happen in a system where money is created at-will with interest attached to it? Inflation. Pair that with ever increasing and more accessible loans, and now prices on goods and services rise in response to the increased money supply, especially expensive goods and services like college and housing.
No, borrowing money isn't bad at all, but charging interest is. Interest can only exist in a system with a perpetually inflating money supply by loaning money backed by nothing but debt. It's not surprising that you don't know this, it's not something that was intended to be common knowledge. If people knew the truth, people would refuse to pay back loans en masse, there would be a run on the banks, and the system would fall apart.
The thing is, this banking system is controlled by the Fed, which is controlled by the Rothschilds (a banking family that's been behind the scenes for over 300 years crafting and perfecting this system) and their industry friends. Any corporation that borrows money is under their thumb. As much as this sounds like a movie plot, it's actually what is happening.
I'm actually aware of Islamic banking, but I'm more fascinated by the JAK banking system in Sweden that loans money out without interest and requires depositors to earn "savings points" before they can apply for a loan. Basically, you have to have money in deposits for a certain amount of time so it's available to loan out. You're contributing to a system that facilitates people's needs rather than taking advantage of them. This, I believe, America should adopt as our banking system in place of the current system.
You are getting ripped off, the money you are saving doesn't gather enough interest to balance against inflation. That money in your savings and everything you earn from interest will actually be worth less in ten or so years than it is today. The savings interest rates are always lower than the inflation rate (some rare exceptions do exist), so you lose money instead of making it. You don't notice it because you're not comparing your money in 2011 to what you will have in 2021. At an average inflation rate of 4%, in 18 years your savings of $10,000 will be devalued to ~$5,000, it will be slightly more with savings interest, but it will never be more than $10,000.
Simply put, lending money for profit should be illegal because it's nothing but a leech on the economy and puts us all into an invisible slavery of debt. It's good for them that things get so expensive that you can't buy expensive necessities (Home, car, farmland, etc.) without a loan. That means you are forced to labor to pay those loans off for your entire life. They've seen to it that there is little you can do in life without going massively in debt and it makes them filthy rich by funneling all the money we labor for to them, the 1%. It's a Ponzi scheme at its core.
Here a few sources to help explain what I'm getting at:
Tanks vs pepper spray? Comon guys let's not blow it out of proportion. Things like this happen all the time.
I don't like that kind of stuff. It means that for it to matter, there has to be tanks and people dying and/or getting seriously hurt. That's BS. It matters already, we don't need to get to the point where death happens and it's a violent overthrow of the government.
The basic premise is the same. People don't like their government, they want to change things, the government doesn't like that and uses force on them.
The only difference between the middle-east protests and these is the amount of force used. That's it. Other than that they're basically the same thing. It's a difference in degree, not in type.
Tanks vs pepper spray? Comon guys let's not blow it out of proportion. Things like this happen all the time.
Okay, so today it's pepper spray, but if they don't get obedience, what will they do next? How far will they go? And oppression is inexcusable whether it's pepper spray or bullet spray. Don't diminish the crimes against society because blood hasn't been shed. We've gotten to this point already because too many people denied that there's a real problem here.
Settle down guys. There is a difference between the government issuing orders to use lethal force and cops and protesters getting into a typical scuffle. It's human nature. It's not a tinfoil hat conspiracy to keep the voice from being heard MMMMMMMMaaaaaaaannn (I am sorry I had to )
Like I said before, the police will have a tendency not to practice restraint and a few protesters will get into their face and give them attitude. A few pepper sprays and zip ties are involved and of course it doesn't do anyone any good, but hey it happens. Let's not pretend like we are shocked.
I am sure we can observe the difference between that and live ammunition. No, it doesn't need to get that drastic and seeing as how much traction this movement has gained now it would be a little silly to draw direct comparisons and diminish the real risks people are taking on the other side of the planet. Let's be rational.
Settle down guys. There is a difference between the government issuing orders to use lethal force and cops and protesters getting into a typical scuffle. It's human nature. It's not a tinfoil hat conspiracy to keep the voice from being heard MMMMMMMMaaaaaaaannn (I am sorry I had to )
Like I said before, the police will have a tendency not to practice restraint and a few protesters will get into their face and give them attitude. A few pepper sprays and zip ties are involved and of course it doesn't do anyone any good, but hey it happens. Let's not pretend like we are shocked.
I am sure we can observe the difference between that and live ammunition. No, it doesn't need to get that drastic and seeing as how much traction this movement has gained now it would be a little silly to draw direct comparisons and diminish the real risks people are taking on the other side of the planet. Let's be rational.
Stop it, just stop. You're ignorant of what's really going on and what's at stake here. In addition to that, you keep marginalizing a group of people with legitimate grievances because they're entrails aren't littering the streets. Violence is not the way free people measure oppression, it's the abuse of power to suppress dissent. That's what is happening and that's what needs to be stopped.
You need to get yourself informed and come back when you realize how wrong you are.
I am not marginalizing anyone, I am just suggesting to stay calm and collected. The video is edited for extreme dramatic effect. I think we all get the point it tries to get across but we needn't get too caught up in romanticizing it all.
The movement got a lot of traction but I feel it's getting a bit diluted between people giving it legitimacy and a whole lot of crazy freakshows showing up for a party
"I'm hoping that maybe if a couple of older geezers like myself come down maybe we can give this movement a little more credibility"
I know that video is shot for comedic effect but I think the older more "normal" gentleman towards the end illustrates some of the things that are happening down there pretty well.
I think this thing will turn violent sooner or later, it's a matter of who's gonna push who. Right now, The cops are only there to rile the people up and make them go crazy so that they can take more extreme measures. But the more they push back the more the people gather.. so who knows man. people are just fed up (no pun intended).
I kind of doubt it will, unless some real rioting starts, which would dissolve any credibility this protest had.
If it happens, a few idiots would cause a disturbance only for the entire thing erupt like a domino effect. It only takes a few morons to start burning and breaking things until the cops start cracking skulls indiscriminately.
But I hope there is enough common sense NOT to let it get that way and I highly doubt that the cops are conspiring to incite one at this point.
So, if some protesters end up having to defend themselves against lethal force, they're idiots for defending themselves?
I don't understand your perspective at all.. have you seen any of the confrontations between police and protesters? The police are trying to get the protesters riled up, that much is blatantly obvious. Beating civilians with batons and pepper spraying them because they don't move as fast as the police want?
They are doing that so they have an excuse to start taking more serious action against the protesters, like Alberto said.
All you have to do is follow the money trail, though. The NYPD have received the biggest donations in the last month than they have ever received. Dead giveaway right there.
They picked on the outliers of the group and presented them as the norm. And the line about the rich paying "a lot of taxes" is complete bullshit. They pay less taxes as a percent of their income than they did decades ago. They're just being selective in their reporting.
Noone's really mad, just upkeeping the radio personalities
That said, Opie is the much more liberal of the two so I guess he wanted to check out what the fuss is all about only encounter a whole lot of whacko's with a few normal people peppered through.
That's not what I see on videos or at least at our occupy. Yes, there will be whackos.. and yes hippies blah blah blah. But I've always noticed how the mainstream media presents it to be just one big party about nothing while going there myself I see people have serious discussions and during the marches people of all ages and backgrounds attend(the camps usually have younger people). Current and and some MSNBC guys are the only news people I feel have been showing it truthfully while other people who are for some weird reason uncomfortable with the protests try to discredit by only talking about/showing the minority that are weirdos who have problems at debating or letting how they are feeling out with words.
Ok, so rich people pay less taxes, percentage wise than poorer people. This took me 30 seconds to find on the IRS page. The 2010 tax brackets for single income...
10% for up to $8375
15% for up to $34,000
25% for up to $82,400
28% for up to $171,850
33% for up to $373,650
35% for anything over $373,650
Now I'm not super big on math, but I'm pretty sure 35 is bigger than 10. Now those numbers are for income tax. If you are saying that they pay less because they pay capitol gain tax then you are ignore the fact that they had to earn the money before they could invest it and thus were already taxed on it.
The problem with the Occupy Wall St people isn't their complaints. Yes joblessness is a problem. Yes the government has screwed up. Yes there have been illegal activities in companies.
How can a man stand up in front of a crowd and say those things and not be boo'd out of the crowd? How can we expect these people to correctly rebuild a moral society with no corporate or government corruption when they can barely keep clean.
You can't make the argument that these people don't represent the group. If that were true, the crowd wouldn't condone their actions and they would have been asked to leave by now. They have had a month to weed out problematic people.
Now I'm not super big on math, but I'm pretty sure 35 is bigger than 10.
You do realize that is before all the loopholes they find and use and is not what they actually end up paying right? They are SUPPOSED to be paying that much, but they end up paying a lot less.
Ok, so rich people pay less taxes, percentage wise than poorer people. This took me 30 seconds to find on the IRS page. The 2010 tax brackets for single income...
10% for up to $8375
15% for up to $34,000
25% for up to $82,400
28% for up to $171,850
33% for up to $373,650
35% for anything over $373,650
Now I'm not super big on math, but I'm pretty sure 35 is bigger than 10. Now those numbers are for income tax. If you are saying that they pay less because they pay capitol gain tax then you are ignore the fact that they had to earn the money before they could invest it and thus were already taxed on it.
Now wait a minute. It isn't that simple. If you make more than $373,650, then your tax is always 35% no matter how much you make, it never goes up from that. If you make less than that, your taxes go up as your income increases until you make more than $373K. As your income goes up in the top bracket, taxes become insignificant and you're paying a lot less than you should. An income of 10 million only pays 3.5 million in taxes and takes home 6.5 million. Taxes are nothing to the wealthiest people, while just moving up one bracket can devastate a common wage earner.
Not only that, I'm sure it costs a lot less to use loopholes in the tax code so you pay little or nothing at all. Warren Buffet admits he only pays 18% and he's massively rich. He should being paying 35%, but he gets away with 18%. I'm sure other equally wealthy or wealthier people do the same thing and pay only a fraction of what should be their fair share.
That is a tax code problem not a rich person problem.
Edited to add 2nd post.
Warren Buffet was comparing capitol gains tax to federal income tax. 90% of his income comes from investing, not form income. Those are 2 different taxes with 2 different sets of rules and comparing them is disingenuous. He is taxed twice on that money. Once at 35% when he earned it the first time. Then when he invests it, he pays a secondary tax on that return. Anyone can earn a living investing like that, you don't have to be super rich.
Ok, so rich people pay less taxes, percentage wise than poorer people. This took me 30 seconds to find on the IRS page. The 2010 tax brackets for single income...
10% for up to $8375
15% for up to $34,000
25% for up to $82,400
28% for up to $171,850
33% for up to $373,650
35% for anything over $373,650
Now I'm not super big on math, but I'm pretty sure 35 is bigger than 10. Now those numbers are for income tax. If you are saying that they pay less because they pay capitol gain tax then you are ignore the fact that they had to earn the money before they could invest it and thus were already taxed on it.
The problem with the Occupy Wall St people isn't their complaints. Yes joblessness is a problem. Yes the government has screwed up. Yes there have been illegal activities in companies.
How can a man stand up in front of a crowd and say those things and not be boo'd out of the crowd? How can we expect these people to correctly rebuild a moral society with no corporate or government corruption when they can barely keep clean.
You can't make the argument that these people don't represent the group. If that were true, the crowd wouldn't condone their actions and they would have been asked to leave by now. They have had a month to weed out problematic people.
Dude, you have no clue what really going on.
Not only do the people making 250K+ get more tax deductions and tax credits, etc, but they also get taxed very little on capital gains which is more than 60% of their income. The rest of us get little to none of those tax breaks. What do you think lobbyists are for? They bribe our representatives to create tax loopholes and such for themselves. Hell, some of our representatives are lobbyists and if they're not they take corporate money, create a tax loophole then they leave gov't to work for the company they created the tax loophole for.
So who are you trying to fool.
That is a tax code problem not a rich person problem.
When the wealthy are the ones that influenced the tax code of the US, you're right in that it's not their "problem" it's their solution.
And if you think anyone making more than 500k is paying their 35% I've got a bridge to sell you. That's even outside of the fact there should be higher brackets at the 500k, 1 mil, 5 mil, etc mark.
That's not to mention that the poor get basically nothing for their taxes in comparison to the wealthy. The poor don't get healthcare, infrastructure is crumbling, social services are near non-existent. Vs the rich who get the government to provide roads to move their goods, a military arm to enforce US hegemony, a money system to sell their products with, etc. The wealthy use a far greater portion of government services than the poor in the states.
You do realize that is before all the loopholes they find and use and is not what they actually end up paying right? They are SUPPOSED to be paying that much, but they end up paying a lot less.
Exactly... what he said. That's part of what people are bitching about. That, and government officials catering to corporations who pad their pockets.
I'm getting tired of the counter arguments that are made up of assumptions, and don't look at the what the real complaints are. People aren't out there complaining that they aren't getting free shit, and that corporations are bad. They are fed up with bail-outs that helped financial institutions, that didn't need it. Oil companies artificially inflating prices (and investors who participate too). Companies saying they need these tax breaks, so they can hire people, then when they get the money, they pocket the money instead, or ship the jobs overseas.
Instead, it's easier to find the quacks in the audience, who just want to be part of things, and really don't know wtf is going on, and put videos of them all over the news/internet.
If you are saying that they pay less because they pay capitol gain tax then you are ignore the fact that they had to earn the money before they could invest it and thus were already taxed on it.
The raw income tax rate is higher, however there are more loopholes the rich can avail themselves of than the poor can. I'll give you 2 guesses who bought and paid for those loop holes.
The majority of their money comes from investments not "income" as in pay checks. So while their pay check might be taxed at 35% that isn't where most of their money is coming from. It would be like you complaining about being taxed on the birthday money your grandma give you, it just isn't a big deal, the mail man could steal it and you probably wouldn't notice.
Local taxes such as gas and sales taxes impact lower income people much more than they do the rich. Both people might pay $2,000 a year in gas taxes as they motor around, but to a poor person that $2,000 is a lot more of their pay check.
Poor people also don't have money rolling in from investments or CPA's to battle the IRS and wipe out their tax liability for them.
There are a lot of rich people that appear as paupers to the IRS but spend millions on a lavish lifestyle. It's "legal" in the sense that no one is breaking the law as it was written. The crime is in how the laws and loopholes were constructed.
You're also assuming that all rich people are new money, most of it is passed down from one generation to another or was passed in a way that isn't considered paycheck income.
You're also assuming that it takes a lot of money to make a lot of money.
Not necessarily when you're allowed access to the people who create the rules. So why can't poor people take what little money they have invest and strike it rich. Again the rules are skewed in a way to benefit the few who created them.
Another cleaver way to avoid being taxed, is to leave your money in a hedge fund and barrow against it. Basically if you leave your money in the fund you aren't taxed until it comes out. If you never take it out, you're never taxed. You're allowed to barrow at really low rates, much lower than poorer people because you're sitting on a big pile of money. So low that even the most secure of funds covers the cost of the loan.
So the rich person has a theoretical tax that is hanging over their head but is never paid.
But what about market volatility what if that wipes them out and they still have massive loans? They design specific sections of the market to be weather proof, they can't loose it.
So its not the 35% income tax rate people are upset about. Its the rigged system they use to make money. The access these people have to politicians and their willingness to write laws that specifically cater to certain people. That is what has people upset. It's the imbalance of power in a supposed democracy where 1% of the people are allowed to do whatever they want while 99% deal with all the fallout and problems.
That's not to mention that the poor get basically nothing for their taxes in comparison to the wealthy. The poor don't get healthcare, infrastructure is crumbling, social services are near non-existent. Vs the rich who get the government to provide roads to move their goods, a military arm to enforce US hegemony, a money system to sell their products with, etc. The wealthy use a far greater portion of government services than the poor in the states.
Everyone has access to the same roads. The poor pay zero taxes (bottom 51%) and they have access to those same roads and education.
I'm getting tired of the counter arguments that are made up of assumptions, and don't look at the what the real complaints are. People aren't out there complaining that they aren't getting free shit, and that corporations are bad. They are fed up with bail-outs that helped financial institutions, that didn't need it. Oil companies artificially inflating prices (and investors who participate too). Companies saying they need these tax breaks, so they can hire people, then when they get the money, they pocket the money instead, or ship the jobs overseas.
These are legit complaints. The people responsible for illegal activity should be prosecuted. The government officials responsible for the failing government should be voted out. There are already systems in place to do these things.
The arguments I am seeing here all stem from a poorly made tax code riddled with holes. Which can be solved by voting in new officials in the government to fix it.
Everyone has access to the same roads. The poor pay zero taxes (bottom 51%) and they have access to those same roads and education.
Live at the end of a cu-de-sac in run down neighborhood and try to get the government to repair some pot holes or repave your street.
Now if you donate 30k to the right people the Governor will come mow your lawn, or upgrade a rail line, or put in another dock at the port that happens to allow only you to expand your business while the other guy who could use that dock to expand his business and has been trying for years to get an expansion, has his permits blocked and requests routed through the courts. If only he had greased a few palms.
Ok that sounds pretty specific but it happens all the time with federal money being diverted into specific districts for specific projects. When a senator from another district does it, its pork. When your senator does it its good business.
Lets not even get started on an education... Do you have any idea what one costs these days? Do you have any idea what a strain that is on a poor family to send even one kid to college? Not to mention that their kid will probably be rejected while someone who makes a generous donation will probably have their kid accepted before the ink dries on the application.
I actually need to retract the thing about the roads. Roads are paid for by the gas tax, and as such isn't applicable to what I said.
Now if you donate 30k to the right people the Governor will come mow your lawn or upgrade a rail line, or put in another dock at the port that happens to allow you to expand your business.
Paying for a road to make a business perform better is exactly like me buying a new graphics card for my computer so I can freelance more effectively. Someone using their property how they want.
The Bottom 51% still pay taxes. Off their paychecks, sales tax, gas tax, and property tax.
Damn, Kaze. That's very interesting..thanks for posting. And I hate it when Fox News keeps saying how the bottom 50 percent need to pay their share. According to Business Insider..the bottom 50% only own 2.5% of the wealth. Whats the point of going after that?
I think it's important to make sure we have a distinction between people who make well over 6 figures as salaried employees and paying upwards of 40% in income tax and the real filthy rich.
I would say that its the middle/upper class households that end up paying the enormous portion of income tax, at least in this country and that's just a bummer.
I actually need to retract the thing about the roads. Roads are paid for by the gas tax, and as such isn't applicable to what I said.
Paying for a road to make a business perform better is exactly like me buying a new graphics card for my computer so I can freelance more effectively. Someone using their property how they want.
That was addressed specifically at income tax.
I have no problem with you paying a contractor 30k to pave your private driveway. I have a problem with you donating 30k to a campaign and magically you get a 3million dollar highway or a 5million dollar bridge built.
Replies
I can't believe everyone is waking up, waking up from this corporate culture of self that has been forced upon us as corporations turn society itself into a commodity.
"if you owe the bank £1,000 you're in trouble. if you owe the bank £1,000,000 then the bank is in trouble".
what he meant by that, is that banks can and will use any and all means to get the money owed to them by "little people", but when the big people owe the bank money, it's in the banks interest to just brush it to the side, pretend it doesn't exist...
greevar has the right of it tbh.
THIS.
mostly true, but you have to be careful to pinpoint interest rates as the source of inflation, there are many other factors that cause prices to increase over time the main one being demand.
EDIT Its all about balance, borrowing money isnt necessarily bad, in india there was a microlending scheme that loaned out small amounts of money (US$200) to help sole proprietors with their business at very low rates and this worked incredibly well for a while, but as the market for such loans grew, lenders got greedy and people got risky leading to bad practices on both sides of the loan and the whole thing has turned to shit.
/EDIT
There is another way to operate however.. never borrow money spend what you earn, invest with what you have not what you can borrow. And the core of it all.. save money, this way the interest rate works for you not against you. I dont have credit cards or loans the money I spend is my own I do not have an overdraft facility at my bank. The only bugger is right now the interest rate is so low I dont see any benefit but at the same time Im not getting ripped off.
EDIT
Interestingly enough, Islam prohibits the concept of "interest" when lending money.. .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking <- explains it alot better than I ever could..
/EDIT
What I said is 100% true, but it's not just interest that causes inflation (though it is a huge part of it). Interest is just one component in the system. You see, banks loan out money that doesn't exist because all money is backed by debt. Your promise to pay the loan is where the bank gets the capital to loan to you in the first place. They charge interest because there has to be more debt than there is money in circulation, because money is backed by debt. They use interest to make money, but it also sustains the system as well. If they didn't create the money out of nothing (a finite money supply) and still charged interest on loans, eventually they would have all the money, which would make it worthless. All of this causes inflation. That other stuff you mention is just a bunch of misinformation they tell you so you don't figure out how it really works. The truth is, the central banks of the world create every boom and bust that has been going on since there was a central bank.
Since they create money out of nothing but your debt, then charge interest on that, what do you think would happen in a system where money is created at-will with interest attached to it? Inflation. Pair that with ever increasing and more accessible loans, and now prices on goods and services rise in response to the increased money supply, especially expensive goods and services like college and housing.
No, borrowing money isn't bad at all, but charging interest is. Interest can only exist in a system with a perpetually inflating money supply by loaning money backed by nothing but debt. It's not surprising that you don't know this, it's not something that was intended to be common knowledge. If people knew the truth, people would refuse to pay back loans en masse, there would be a run on the banks, and the system would fall apart.
The thing is, this banking system is controlled by the Fed, which is controlled by the Rothschilds (a banking family that's been behind the scenes for over 300 years crafting and perfecting this system) and their industry friends. Any corporation that borrows money is under their thumb. As much as this sounds like a movie plot, it's actually what is happening.
I'm actually aware of Islamic banking, but I'm more fascinated by the JAK banking system in Sweden that loans money out without interest and requires depositors to earn "savings points" before they can apply for a loan. Basically, you have to have money in deposits for a certain amount of time so it's available to loan out. You're contributing to a system that facilitates people's needs rather than taking advantage of them. This, I believe, America should adopt as our banking system in place of the current system.
You are getting ripped off, the money you are saving doesn't gather enough interest to balance against inflation. That money in your savings and everything you earn from interest will actually be worth less in ten or so years than it is today. The savings interest rates are always lower than the inflation rate (some rare exceptions do exist), so you lose money instead of making it. You don't notice it because you're not comparing your money in 2011 to what you will have in 2021. At an average inflation rate of 4%, in 18 years your savings of $10,000 will be devalued to ~$5,000, it will be slightly more with savings interest, but it will never be more than $10,000.
Simply put, lending money for profit should be illegal because it's nothing but a leech on the economy and puts us all into an invisible slavery of debt. It's good for them that things get so expensive that you can't buy expensive necessities (Home, car, farmland, etc.) without a loan. That means you are forced to labor to pay those loans off for your entire life. They've seen to it that there is little you can do in life without going massively in debt and it makes them filthy rich by funneling all the money we labor for to them, the 1%. It's a Ponzi scheme at its core.
Here a few sources to help explain what I'm getting at:
The History of Money
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I may not agree with Chris Hedges all the time but he make a damn good argument.
More from Chris Hedges:
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Actually....it's just sad
Oh, without a doubt. It's hypocrisy at it's worst.
I don't like that kind of stuff. It means that for it to matter, there has to be tanks and people dying and/or getting seriously hurt. That's BS. It matters already, we don't need to get to the point where death happens and it's a violent overthrow of the government.
The basic premise is the same. People don't like their government, they want to change things, the government doesn't like that and uses force on them.
The only difference between the middle-east protests and these is the amount of force used. That's it. Other than that they're basically the same thing. It's a difference in degree, not in type.
Okay, so today it's pepper spray, but if they don't get obedience, what will they do next? How far will they go? And oppression is inexcusable whether it's pepper spray or bullet spray. Don't diminish the crimes against society because blood hasn't been shed. We've gotten to this point already because too many people denied that there's a real problem here.
Like I said before, the police will have a tendency not to practice restraint and a few protesters will get into their face and give them attitude. A few pepper sprays and zip ties are involved and of course it doesn't do anyone any good, but hey it happens. Let's not pretend like we are shocked.
I am sure we can observe the difference between that and live ammunition. No, it doesn't need to get that drastic and seeing as how much traction this movement has gained now it would be a little silly to draw direct comparisons and diminish the real risks people are taking on the other side of the planet. Let's be rational.
Stop it, just stop. You're ignorant of what's really going on and what's at stake here. In addition to that, you keep marginalizing a group of people with legitimate grievances because they're entrails aren't littering the streets. Violence is not the way free people measure oppression, it's the abuse of power to suppress dissent. That's what is happening and that's what needs to be stopped.
You need to get yourself informed and come back when you realize how wrong you are.
The movement got a lot of traction but I feel it's getting a bit diluted between people giving it legitimacy and a whole lot of crazy freakshows showing up for a party
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"I'm hoping that maybe if a couple of older geezers like myself come down maybe we can give this movement a little more credibility"
I know that video is shot for comedic effect but I think the older more "normal" gentleman towards the end illustrates some of the things that are happening down there pretty well.
If it happens, a few idiots would cause a disturbance only for the entire thing erupt like a domino effect. It only takes a few morons to start burning and breaking things until the cops start cracking skulls indiscriminately.
But I hope there is enough common sense NOT to let it get that way and I highly doubt that the cops are conspiring to incite one at this point.
I don't understand your perspective at all.. have you seen any of the confrontations between police and protesters? The police are trying to get the protesters riled up, that much is blatantly obvious. Beating civilians with batons and pepper spraying them because they don't move as fast as the police want?
They are doing that so they have an excuse to start taking more serious action against the protesters, like Alberto said.
All you have to do is follow the money trail, though. The NYPD have received the biggest donations in the last month than they have ever received. Dead giveaway right there.
Think of G20 in Toronto, whole city went into a riot because of a very small group of people came to fuck shit up for the shits and giggles.
The longer it drags on the more it costs to have all those cops and paddy wagons standing by.
What the hell is going on...
They picked on the outliers of the group and presented them as the norm. And the line about the rich paying "a lot of taxes" is complete bullshit. They pay less taxes as a percent of their income than they did decades ago. They're just being selective in their reporting.
That said, Opie is the much more liberal of the two so I guess he wanted to check out what the fuss is all about only encounter a whole lot of whacko's with a few normal people peppered through.
10% for up to $8375
15% for up to $34,000
25% for up to $82,400
28% for up to $171,850
33% for up to $373,650
35% for anything over $373,650
Now I'm not super big on math, but I'm pretty sure 35 is bigger than 10. Now those numbers are for income tax. If you are saying that they pay less because they pay capitol gain tax then you are ignore the fact that they had to earn the money before they could invest it and thus were already taxed on it.
The problem with the Occupy Wall St people isn't their complaints. Yes joblessness is a problem. Yes the government has screwed up. Yes there have been illegal activities in companies.
The problem is their solutions.
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How can a man stand up in front of a crowd and say those things and not be boo'd out of the crowd? How can we expect these people to correctly rebuild a moral society with no corporate or government corruption when they can barely keep clean.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/increasingly-debauched-are-sex-drugs-poor-sanitation-eclipsing-occupy-wall-street/
You can't make the argument that these people don't represent the group. If that were true, the crowd wouldn't condone their actions and they would have been asked to leave by now. They have had a month to weed out problematic people.
You do realize that is before all the loopholes they find and use and is not what they actually end up paying right? They are SUPPOSED to be paying that much, but they end up paying a lot less.
Now wait a minute. It isn't that simple. If you make more than $373,650, then your tax is always 35% no matter how much you make, it never goes up from that. If you make less than that, your taxes go up as your income increases until you make more than $373K. As your income goes up in the top bracket, taxes become insignificant and you're paying a lot less than you should. An income of 10 million only pays 3.5 million in taxes and takes home 6.5 million. Taxes are nothing to the wealthiest people, while just moving up one bracket can devastate a common wage earner.
Not only that, I'm sure it costs a lot less to use loopholes in the tax code so you pay little or nothing at all. Warren Buffet admits he only pays 18% and he's massively rich. He should being paying 35%, but he gets away with 18%. I'm sure other equally wealthy or wealthier people do the same thing and pay only a fraction of what should be their fair share.
Edited to add 2nd post.
Warren Buffet was comparing capitol gains tax to federal income tax. 90% of his income comes from investing, not form income. Those are 2 different taxes with 2 different sets of rules and comparing them is disingenuous. He is taxed twice on that money. Once at 35% when he earned it the first time. Then when he invests it, he pays a secondary tax on that return. Anyone can earn a living investing like that, you don't have to be super rich.
Not only do the people making 250K+ get more tax deductions and tax credits, etc, but they also get taxed very little on capital gains which is more than 60% of their income. The rest of us get little to none of those tax breaks. What do you think lobbyists are for? They bribe our representatives to create tax loopholes and such for themselves. Hell, some of our representatives are lobbyists and if they're not they take corporate money, create a tax loophole then they leave gov't to work for the company they created the tax loophole for.
So who are you trying to fool.
A few examples of how the rich have it easy and the rest of us get screwed.
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http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/152364/how_small_government_conservatives_raise_your_taxes_through_stealthy_backdoor_fees
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When the wealthy are the ones that influenced the tax code of the US, you're right in that it's not their "problem" it's their solution.
And if you think anyone making more than 500k is paying their 35% I've got a bridge to sell you. That's even outside of the fact there should be higher brackets at the 500k, 1 mil, 5 mil, etc mark.
That's not to mention that the poor get basically nothing for their taxes in comparison to the wealthy. The poor don't get healthcare, infrastructure is crumbling, social services are near non-existent. Vs the rich who get the government to provide roads to move their goods, a military arm to enforce US hegemony, a money system to sell their products with, etc. The wealthy use a far greater portion of government services than the poor in the states.
I'm getting tired of the counter arguments that are made up of assumptions, and don't look at the what the real complaints are. People aren't out there complaining that they aren't getting free shit, and that corporations are bad. They are fed up with bail-outs that helped financial institutions, that didn't need it. Oil companies artificially inflating prices (and investors who participate too). Companies saying they need these tax breaks, so they can hire people, then when they get the money, they pocket the money instead, or ship the jobs overseas.
Instead, it's easier to find the quacks in the audience, who just want to be part of things, and really don't know wtf is going on, and put videos of them all over the news/internet.
The raw income tax rate is higher, however there are more loopholes the rich can avail themselves of than the poor can. I'll give you 2 guesses who bought and paid for those loop holes.
The majority of their money comes from investments not "income" as in pay checks. So while their pay check might be taxed at 35% that isn't where most of their money is coming from. It would be like you complaining about being taxed on the birthday money your grandma give you, it just isn't a big deal, the mail man could steal it and you probably wouldn't notice.
Local taxes such as gas and sales taxes impact lower income people much more than they do the rich. Both people might pay $2,000 a year in gas taxes as they motor around, but to a poor person that $2,000 is a lot more of their pay check.
Poor people also don't have money rolling in from investments or CPA's to battle the IRS and wipe out their tax liability for them.
There are a lot of rich people that appear as paupers to the IRS but spend millions on a lavish lifestyle. It's "legal" in the sense that no one is breaking the law as it was written. The crime is in how the laws and loopholes were constructed.
You're also assuming that all rich people are new money, most of it is passed down from one generation to another or was passed in a way that isn't considered paycheck income.
You're also assuming that it takes a lot of money to make a lot of money.
Not necessarily when you're allowed access to the people who create the rules. So why can't poor people take what little money they have invest and strike it rich. Again the rules are skewed in a way to benefit the few who created them.
Another cleaver way to avoid being taxed, is to leave your money in a hedge fund and barrow against it. Basically if you leave your money in the fund you aren't taxed until it comes out. If you never take it out, you're never taxed. You're allowed to barrow at really low rates, much lower than poorer people because you're sitting on a big pile of money. So low that even the most secure of funds covers the cost of the loan.
So the rich person has a theoretical tax that is hanging over their head but is never paid.
But what about market volatility what if that wipes them out and they still have massive loans? They design specific sections of the market to be weather proof, they can't loose it.
So its not the 35% income tax rate people are upset about. Its the rigged system they use to make money. The access these people have to politicians and their willingness to write laws that specifically cater to certain people. That is what has people upset. It's the imbalance of power in a supposed democracy where 1% of the people are allowed to do whatever they want while 99% deal with all the fallout and problems.
These are legit complaints. The people responsible for illegal activity should be prosecuted. The government officials responsible for the failing government should be voted out. There are already systems in place to do these things.
The arguments I am seeing here all stem from a poorly made tax code riddled with holes. Which can be solved by voting in new officials in the government to fix it.
I don't particularly like businessinsider.com but this one article illustrates pretty much exactly why people are protesting wall street.
CHARTS: Here's What The Wall Street Protesters Are So Angry About...
I like this one too.
15 Mind-Blowing Facts About Wealth And Inequality In America
Live at the end of a cu-de-sac in run down neighborhood and try to get the government to repair some pot holes or repave your street.
Now if you donate 30k to the right people the Governor will come mow your lawn, or upgrade a rail line, or put in another dock at the port that happens to allow only you to expand your business while the other guy who could use that dock to expand his business and has been trying for years to get an expansion, has his permits blocked and requests routed through the courts. If only he had greased a few palms.
Ok that sounds pretty specific but it happens all the time with federal money being diverted into specific districts for specific projects. When a senator from another district does it, its pork. When your senator does it its good business.
Lets not even get started on an education... Do you have any idea what one costs these days? Do you have any idea what a strain that is on a poor family to send even one kid to college? Not to mention that their kid will probably be rejected while someone who makes a generous donation will probably have their kid accepted before the ink dries on the application.
Paying for a road to make a business perform better is exactly like me buying a new graphics card for my computer so I can freelance more effectively. Someone using their property how they want.
That was addressed specifically at income tax.
I would say that its the middle/upper class households that end up paying the enormous portion of income tax, at least in this country and that's just a bummer.