basically, government workers went on strike yesterday, including teachers and stuff. it's all union related, and it boils down to their pensions being adjusted in order to help clear the UK's deficit.
i think it's a load of bollox, and if i thought it would do any good, i'd love to write a letter to just about every news place in the country saying something along the lines of "fine, if that's the case, fire a teacher, i'll take their job with the lowered pension and the 4 months of holiday time every year, and the better than minimum wage salery. and i'll even make sure all the kids in my class pass their exams".
at the end of the day, in a country which keeps having "a shortage of teachers", and more importantly, a shortage of jobs. there are plenty of people who could replace our current teachers quite happily with what our teachers are currently paid.
dude, you think teachers should only get minimum wage? to be a teacher requires quite a bit of education in your subject as well as in teaching. Studying for a long time to end up with a minimum wage job sure doesn't sound interesting to me...
My dad is an English teacher (here in the Netherlands) and I can assure you he is working his ass of for the money he receives. Checking tests every weekend, working full days, teachers should not be underestimated. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]
I agree with Japhir. Teachers are in general underpaid. Both my father and my sister are teachers here in sweden, they dont get paid much, and to work overtime more or less all the time + the climate in todays schools is horrible to say the least (atleast here in sweden with all the integration issues) regularly recieving threats and abuse, etc. They have a shitload more education than me and still earn less, so... no.
Yeah, here in the US, teachers make crap wages. It is not uncommon to have one teacher per 40-50 students, while paying for a majority of class supplies out of their own pockets. This leads to predictably unstable conditions EVERYWHERE. I personally feel that a large portion of America's problems is because of a shattered public education system. Teachers are the real "job creators", yet we don't want to assist them or, god-help-us, make it profitable to be a teacher. Teachers here are told to do more with less each and every year. So I'll have to say I disagree too.
I thinks its not an issue that teachers are living the high life but that society around them has gone to shit. Those that don't have anyone to stand along side with them has had no say in the way the pain is dealt out have been dealt the most pain disproportionately. It shouldn't be a call to stab a union in the back but to stand with them.
Redirecting the class anger at the teachers making them out to be some kind of government fat cat is a pretty classic diversion tactic.
Have not: Spare some change?
Have: "Here buddy have a slice of cake on me." Have not: Thanks! nom nom nom
Have: "Don't blame me (even though everyone knows I broke your system), blame... this guy over here he's the real mastermind behind this. LOOK! He's eating all of your cake!"
To Gir:
Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.
I agree with Japhir. Teachers are in general underpaid. Both my father and my sister are teachers here in sweden, they dont get paid much, and to work overtime more or less all the time + the climate in todays schools is horrible to say the least (atleast here in sweden with all the integration issues) regularly recieving threats and abuse, etc. They have a shitload more education than me and still earn less, so... no.
I completely agree.
My mother has been a teacher her entire life, she has paid for 10+years of higher education, constantly pays for school supplies with her own money and to top it off makes less than I do and works longer hours 60-80hrs per week with only 40hrs of pay. To top it off the unions for the last 10 years have been doing nothing but giving up ground on benefits and pay. When they get a contract to vote on its not how much more are we getting, its "great how am I going to live on this now".
Constantly downgrading your lifestyle again and again just so you can still have a job, so you can try to inspire the next generation is a tough road to take. Normally people are lead to believe that things get better as you get older which is probably why Gir is willing to take a crap job for crap pay, "it will get better". Well no it doesn't, the deal you get only gets worse if you're a teacher. You can always count on the government coming back looking for teachers to give up more and more.
What's really disgusting is that they've taken all they can reasonably take and now they have to resort to demonizing them just so they can take a little more.
Not to mention they are expected to do a better job with more and more kids being stuffed into classrooms, the apathy of the students, the parents and society at large, it is astounding anyone would sign up for that... especially given all the schooling they have to go through.
My wife is an early childhood teacher. She makes $8.50 an hour, 40hr/week. That's it, no bonuses. Two weeks of paid time off a year and her wage. She's worth at least $15 an hour with her knowledge, experience, skill, and passion for teaching the young.
dude, you think teachers should only get minimum wage?
i'm sorry, how did you get that at all from my post? what i'm saying is they get paid better than most (here in england). most here being defined as the bottom line.
and while i agree it might take quite a bit of education to teach at a college or university level, a monkey could teach at primary and secondary school level.
case in point, i had to correct my sons maths teacher at a recent parents evening because she failed to complete an equation backwards (meaning it was done wrong).
the main point here being: there are people more than able, and willing to teach for less than teachers currently get paid, and would be WAY more than happy with the reduced pension being given to teachers now. especially when you considder the other benefits that come with being a teacher, like the massive holiday time.
Normally people are lead to believe that things get better as you get older which is probably why Gir is willing to take a crap job for crap pay, "it will get better".
no man. i've ben unemployed for 3 years now, it fucking sucks. especially when i know i could do half the jobs out there better than the people currently doing them.
the obvious exception here being game art, which i know i couldn't do better, but i'm working on that... funny thing though, being unemployed has actually DEMOTIVATED me to do better. it's a harsh slum to get out of.
so no, the reason i would take that job with "shitty pay", isn't because i think it'll get better. it's because I WANT A FUCKING JOB.
my mum is a receptionist at a school, and earns ~£12 per hour. AND she gets weekends, half term, and full term holidays off, including that lovely 6 weeker in the middle of the summer. and this reduced pension she just went on strike over, is still better than anyone working for minumum wage at the local grocery store could ever even dream of. essentially they're striking because they don't like the fact that times might get slightly harder for them, but nowhere even close to how hard they are for other people ALL THE TIME.
sorry for the rage. but i'm starting to get a little pissed at people (generalisation incoming) who claim that x or y have shitty wages... well, shitty compared to what? compared to you? or compared to the bottom line?
because right now i'm below the bottom line. i'm actually a NEGATIVE figure, i won't even be entitled to a STATE PENSION because i've been unemployed so long that my NI contributions won't cover it.
the main point here being: there are people more than able, and willing to teach for less than teachers currently get paid, and would be WAY more than happy with the reduced pension being given to teachers now. especially when you considder the other benefits that come with being a teacher, like the massive holiday time.
And those people are perfectly free to go, get themselves educated, and and get a job. In fact, if they are more able and more willing they probably would be teachers. The fact that those people are not teachers points pretty strongly to the fact that they are, in the least, not more willing.
Anyways, for my money (because teachers are paid with my money), I'd prefer to make sure teachers are very well paid, and very happy. They have significant effects on the generations of children that go through their classes, so we should be encouraging the best of people to go into the profession, and make sure that it is worth it for those people.
If you are the kind of person that looks at teachers and says "Shit, I'd do that for the amount of money they get!" - you are exactly the type of person I'd never want teaching.
sorry for the rage. but i'm starting to get a little pissed at people (generalisation incoming) who claim that x or y have shitty wages... well, shitty compared to what? compared to you? or compared to the bottom line?
Quite the opposite, I'm getting pissed off at this bullshit attitude that because shit sucks in one place, anyone trying to make it better anywhere else are wrong and bad. Fuck that bullshit man.
You think you're below bottom line? Look at 3rd world parts of Africa. It's worse. By your own logic you should shut the fuck up about how bad your life is, because you are doing way better than they are there.
So because you're in a shit situation, everyone else should be pleased to, in many cases, also be in a shit situation? You're just being bitter.
Fact is that in many parts of the world, teachers are UNDERPAID and OVERWORKED. Sure teachers get the summer off, but many show up to work 40 hours a week, and then do 20 more hours a week grading assignments, setting up lesson plans etc. Not to mention that this is well educated, skilled and extremely stressful work we're talking here.
Should they be happy to be employed? Sure, many people aren't these days. Should they be happy with stagnating or reduced wages and reduced benefits couple with constantly increasing cost of living? I don't see any logic as to why they should.
Belittling people for having the audacity to stand up for themselves is just ignorant bullshit on your part.
Anyways, for my money (because teachers are paid with my money), I'd prefer to make sure teachers are very well paid, and very happy. They have significant effects on the generations of children that go through their classes, so we should be encouraging the best of people to go into the profession, and make sure that it is worth it for those people.
Yes.
Quite the opposite, I'm getting pissed off at this bullshit attitude that because shit sucks in one place, anyone trying to make it better anywhere else are wrong and bad. Fuck that bullshit man.
You think you're below bottom line? Look at 3rd world parts of Africa. It's worse. By your own logic you should shut the fuck up about how bad your life is, because you are doing way better than they are there.
So because you're in a shit situation, everyone else should be pleased to, in many cases, also be in a shit situation
This is the opposition of OWS by many of the general public in a nutshell. It shouldn't be an opening for a misery pissing match, but that's how many people are treating it.
And those people are perfectly free to go, get themselves educated, and and get a job.
i'm college educated, and can't get a job in my town, because it's overrun by terkish and polish people who work for less than ligitimate wages.
oh wait that doesn't just happen in america anymore?!
oh and... african politics are why africans are so hard off. ask if anyone in the governments within africa are either starving, hungry, or less than rich.
i'm college educated, and can't get a job in my town, because it's overrun by terkish and polish people who work for less than ligitimate wages.
oh wait that doesn't just happen in america anymore?!
You have an influx of college educated immigrants that are taking all the highly skilled jobs for lower wages? If it's like America, they are taking all the low paid horrible jobs you'd never apply for in the first place.
case in point: Georgia cracked down on illegal immigration, scaring all the migrant workers away. You'd think the desperate unemployed Georgians would snatch up all the seasonal harvesting jobs but instead fields are rotting and farms are shutting down. Even ex-cons who have a harder time finding work are walking off after a day of picking peaches in the hot sun all day.
You have an influx of college educated immigrants that are taking all the highly skilled jobs for lower wages? If it's like America, they are taking all the low paid horrible jobs you'd never apply for in the first place.
case in point: Georgia cracked down on illegal immigration, scaring all the migrant workers away. You'd think the desperate unemployed Georgians would snatch up all the seasonal harvesting jobs but instead fields are rotting and farms are shutting down. Even ex-cons who have a harder time finding work are walking off after a day of picking peaches in the hot sun all day.
actually it's worse than that. during the last governments reign, Tesco secured a deal whereby they could employ polish immigrants at a reduced rate of pay, in return they subsidised their food cost as long as the food was purchased at tesco, and also subsidised their housing costs while they worked at tesco.
it actually profited tesco to do this, and they didn't offer it to any english people.
i'm college educated, and can't get a job in my town, because it's overrun by terkish and polish people who work for less than ligitimate wages.
oh wait that doesn't just happen in america anymore?!
...
Wait back up...
So you're willing to stick a knife in a teachers back and go around the union to steal a teachers job, but then you turn around and blame others for doing the same thing?
If you're fine with screwing over teachers then you're fine with getting screwed.
Wait back up... so you're willing to stick a knife in a teachers back and go around the union to steal a teachers job, but then you turn around and blame others for doing the same thing?
If you're fine with screwing over teachers then you're fine with getting screwed.
i get where you're coming from with that one. but that's still not the point i was making.
anyway, i'm going to leave this thread, because i get the impression i'm coming off as an ass to you guys.
I don't think you truelly respect what kind of an influence a good teacher can have on children. (Yes, there are some fucking bad teachers out there) Regardless of how well they know their subject a teacher can play a big role in supporting children, hell... at a primary school level children spend almost as much time with their teachers as they do their parents.
I thought i was a miserable cunt , but it seems that you're totally outdoing me, gir.
(i argue so poorly, i throw insults in way too hastily... not that i really care if i convince you of anything)
It can be really telling when you break things down like that and its a shame that people rarely take things the full length with a whole load of "why is this, why is this, why is that" questions.
This was an issue during the times of the London riots, they were being dismissed as opportunistic for looting or just doing it for the sake of it without truelly digging deeper.
People fascinate me but its such love hate relationship, videos like that teacher one go a long way into restoring some faith into society but for the most part i might as well be a misanthrope haha.
Teachers are directly responsible for the future of our kids, and their pay is being decreased, while their burden is increasing. That means that they will less effectively be able to do their jobs, meaning the education of the kids they teach will worsen in comparison to kids of past generations who had better public educations.
I think this can be said about every profession out there. Pay is getting cut and the performance demand is increasing, forcing people to do more for less. We're slowly marching towards a world where only a handful of people are employed at a level that can sustain them while everyone else is going to be a third world people in a first world country.
These days, the most stable professions out there are in health care and the military. That doesn't seem ironic at all now does it?
I think this can be said about every profession out there. Pay is getting cut and the performance demand is increasing, forcing people to do more for less. We're slowly marching towards a world where only a handful of people are employed at a level that can sustain them while everyone else is going to be a third world people in a first world country.
These days, the most stable professions out there are in health care and the military. That doesn't seem ironic at all now does it?
Certain members of the US congress are also quick to point out that 2 years of military service is the quickest path to citizenship and the only form of socialized medicine available in the in the US. You get both in one shot! Oh wait you just get shot...
Considering that the healthcare industry makes the most money by not treating people, and the defense industry makes the most money by attacking people, while the people least in favor of allowing government to provide health insurance because they'll kill people, are most in favor of hyper protection from people who's main job is to kill people?
That's not ironic at all. ;_;
You're confusing the health care industry with the health insurance industry. HMO's make money by not paying for treatment, leaving it to the patient. There is still a high demand for medical professionals because people can't afford preventative care and ignore their ills until they can't. Then, they have no choice but to seek medical help, driving up demand for health care professionals. Also, I said the military, not the military industrial complex. There is plenty of employment if you become a soldier or a medic. That is the irony.
I think everyone should be paid appropriately for their work. However, that being said, 90% of all my teachers growing up were terrible, and I've spent the remainder of my life essentially realizing how I should do the opposite of what I was taught in school. I had elementary school teachers tell me that drinking chocolate milk was bad for me, because the chocolate "took all the nutrients out". I had a speech teacher who forced us to lip sync Britney Spears (I shit you not) lest we fail the class. My astronomy teacher couldn't tell me how it was that we always see the same face of the moon, if in fact both the moon and the earth are revolving - I had to look it up myself on youtube. And I don't think it's anything but common sense but to realize that 90% of anything they ever forced on you in high school was essentially one giant waste of time.
Graduating a semester early and jumping into the real world was the most intelligent school related decision I have ever made.
Long story short, I think teachers should be paid more, but I also think we should hold our teachers to a higher standard - and to balance that out, we also need to hold our children to a higher standard. These days good teachers are punished for failing asinine punks, and students who strive to pursue goals are frowned upon for trying to get ahead of the class or their peers.
Also just to add, tech support is also a ridiculously stable place to be employed. (Though I don't recommend it, haha).
Tesco secured a deal whereby they could employ polish immigrants at a reduced rate of pay, in return they subsidised their food cost as long as the food was purchased at tesco, and also subsidised their housing costs while they worked at tesco.
I would like proof of this more than your hearsay. I have not found anything about this specifically online. Further, even in the UK, I would highly doubt this to be legal. As it is, HOW would they know all immigrants food purchases were done at Tesco? Claiming such is not a reasonable statement to even say. For a college education your coming off quite ignorant and bigoted.
here is a question: why would anyone in power want the general population to receive an awesome education where they could start thinking/analyzing for themselves instead of being constantly being bombarded and brainwashed by the media/corporations/advertising and keep spending their money on useless shit they dont need?
ofcourse they are going to keep cut school funding while raising the cost of post secondary to astronomical levels, if everyone has a sub par education an cant afford to go to university, then those who have shitloads of money/power will be able too educate themselves and get the jobs with power/money while the rest of the sheeple are enslaved to shitty jobs and continually are feeding the people in power money through their desire to have whatever they are told they need. not only that but why not get them super indebted to the banks for student loans so they are forced to work their asses of to pay it back.
so why would they (corporations, government, banks etc) want anyone to actually wake up from their consumer driven stupor of daily lives and start thinking about whats actually going on in the world?
here is a question: why would anyone in power want the general population to receive an awesome education where they could start thinking/analyzing for themselves instead of being constantly being bombarded and brainwashed by the media/corporations/advertising and keep spending their money on useless shit they dont need?
ofcourse they are going to keep cut school funding while raising the cost of post secondary to astronomical levels, if everyone has a sub par education an cant afford to go to university, then those who have shitloads of money/power will be able too educate themselves and get the jobs with power/money while the rest of the sheeple are enslaved to shitty jobs and continually are feeding the people in power money through their desire to have whatever they are told they need. not only that but why not get them super indebted to the banks for student loans so they are forced to work their asses of to pay it back.
so why would they (corporations, government, banks etc) want anyone to actually wake up from their consumer driven stupor of daily lives and start thinking about whats actually going on in the world?
The reason you guys are talking about teachers pay and pensions is because of the cuts to the public sector in the UK. So it's most public sector workers that are being effected not just teachers. Like what PixelMasher said, this is all part of the typical route our new conservative government (that is now in power) takes to remove decent quality services and education from the less well off, removing our power and ability to fight back. It's been happening for decades and decades.
The Occupy Movement is about turning that around. I wish more people who are in the Public Sector, and were protesting for a day this week, would support the Occupy Movement as they are linked. Unfortunately the majority of society fails to realise what the Occupy Movement is really about and just sees loads of "hippies" trying to tear down democracy and our way of life....Hopefully peoples views will change and they will become more informed as this movement grows.
...What do we do in turn? Cut the pay of teachers further, claiming that they're failing our kids, meaning that the only solution would be to privatize schools, further isolating people who cannot afford private schools.
It's a shitty facet of our culture that seems to be increasingly becoming popular. Cut public services until they can marginally function, then cut them completely, or proivde incredibly terrible incentives. For example in the U.S. we cut police funding, then have them make up for it by having to earn the funding based on how many drug arrests they make.
What do we do with the people we arrest for having drugs? We shove them in private prisons that make profits based on the number of prisoners they have and how cheaply they maintain/guard them. Wait, private prisons? Why? Prisons are overcrowded because we pack them full of non-violent drug offenders, who are probably on drugs as a means of escapism and because their education wasn't good enough to help them see why taking drugs can be harmful.
here is a question: why would anyone in power want the general population to receive an awesome education where they could start thinking/analyzing for themselves instead of being constantly being bombarded and brainwashed by the media/corporations/advertising and keep spending their money on useless shit they dont need?
ofcourse they are going to keep cut school funding while raising the cost of post secondary to astronomical levels, if everyone has a sub par education an cant afford to go to university, then those who have shitloads of money/power will be able too educate themselves and get the jobs with power/money while the rest of the sheeple are enslaved to shitty jobs and continually are feeding the people in power money through their desire to have whatever they are told they need. not only that but why not get them super indebted to the banks for student loans so they are forced to work their asses of to pay it back.
so why would they (corporations, government, banks etc) want anyone to actually wake up from their consumer driven stupor of daily lives and start thinking about whats actually going on in the world?
Absolutely.
Broken education system + Private prison system x Corrupted government = Civilization of consumers, to be farmed accordingly
Then you have corporations "helping" public schools by providing funding, but only if they can have advertising rights and shove consumerism down children's throats uninterrupted. I can see it now... "today's math assignment has been brought to you by Red Bull; It gives you wings". It almost seems like this has always been part of one big plan...
Don't question the status quo and don't think for yourself. Just be a good little drone, meet your work quota, and spend all your income on high margin goods that you probably made.
I can see it now... "today's math assignment has been brought to you by Red Bull; It gives you wings". It almost seems like this has always been part of one big plan...
Close but it probably goes something closer to this:
Teacher: "Today's math assignment is available from the vending machine at the back of the classroom"
Student: "Umm... is it broken it only hands out Red Bull?"
Teacher: nope not broken as long as you put your money in you get an A."
Teacher: "Oh and be sure to give me your empty cans, its part of the new 'we don't pay teachers' incentive program."
Teacher: "remember class next week is our clothing drive, remind your parents to dig through their closets, especially those of you who have parents that are about my height and weight."
This is going to lead to a civil war if they try to act on this, if it becomes law. Somebody needs to arrest every one of these traitorous cowards, all 93 of them.
The only thing this doomcrying conspiracy laden thread is missing is a chalk board and Glenn Beck.
So I keep hearing things about how it does apply to US citizens, and then others that say it does not. Which is true?
Subject to interpretation basically. The people in favor of it said it couldn't apply to U.S. citizens because of the supreme court decision against Hamdi but there was some concern over whether or not that actually applied to U.S. Citizen's arrested inside of the U.S., because Hamdi was a U.S. citizen arrested inside Afghanistan.
I can tell you though in light of the Supreme Court decision it's highly unlikely they'd decide that anybody inside the U.S. is fair game...
Errr, article sounds like bs to me. Full of loaded language, and little fact to back it up. Just my impression.
I can't remember the exact article as it's already been removed but if it was essentially the same as every other article on the subject claiming you could detain anyone indefinitely without trial then it's false but kind of not really... maybe...
Even ignoring the above applicability to U.S. citizens, the idea of indefinitely detaining people without trial or just cause is directly at odds with habeas corpus which would have made trying to do it incredibly difficult... That said, habeas corpus isn't the bulletproof safeguard it once was anymore and there are ways around it.
This is all really a moot point, the ammendment was defeated by the "traitorous" senate in a roll call vote by Senator Rand Paul.
Errr, article sounds like bs to me. Full of loaded language, and little fact to back it up. Just my impression.
I agree, very light on facts and heavy on emotion so I'm not sure I would trust what the guy is saying. He seems to jump to conclusions pretty quick like tomorrow he's going to wake up in gitmo because in 2002 he posted a pic of Bush with a Hitler mustache. Yes its an incredibly scarey bill and it seems to be stripping the American citizens of more of their civil liberties but honestly the patriot act did way more damage that still needs to be undone.
Also the president has threatened to veto it, so as far as I know it hasn't been signed into law. His problems with it isn't really that citizens can be subject to indefinite internment but that it muddies the water between police and the military, which is good, let the military do what it does best, kill people who are clearly marked as enemies by the uniform they wear. Let the intelligence community do what it does best by digging through your trash and tapping your phone.
However if he does sign it as is, I'm going to have a really hard time voting for him next year.
The lack of solid information in the media is appalling. I had to read through the entire f'n bill to find the relevant information. Here are the parts that, I believe, are in question (Title X, subtitle D, section 1031):
Subtitle DDetainee Matters
SEC. 1031. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED
FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN
COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AU-
THORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE.
(a) IN GENERAL.Congress affirms that the author-
ity of the President to use all necessary and appropriate
force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military
Force (Public Law 10740) includes the authority for the
Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered per-
sons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition
under the law of war.
(b) COVERED PERSONS.A covered person under
this section is any person as follows:
(1) A person who planned, authorized, com-
mitted, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred
on September 11, 2001, or harbored those respon-
sible for those attacks.
(2) A person who was a part of or substantially
supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces
that are engaged in hostilities against the United
States or its coalition partners, including any person
who has committed a belligerent act or has directly
supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.
To me it sounds like they're identifying any person that has even the loosest connection to not only al qaeda and the taliban, but any organization related to those. Basically, anyone and their mothers. But that's just my interpretation.
Then the following section is where it specifies that US citizens are included:
(c) DISPOSITION UNDER LAW OF WAR.The dis-
position of a person under the law of war as described
in subsection (a) may include the following:
(1) Detention under the law of war without
trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the
Authorization for Use of Military Force.
(2) Trial under chapter 47A of title 10, United
States Code (as amended by the Military Commis-
sions Act of 2009 (title XVIII of Public Law 111
84)).
(3) Transfer for trial by an alternative court or
competent tribunal having lawful jurisdiction.
(4) Transfer to the custody or control of the
persons country of origin, any other foreign coun-
try, or any other foreign entity.
(d) CONSTRUCTION.Nothing in this section is in-
tended to limit or expand the authority of the President
or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military
Force.
(e) AUTHORITIES.Nothing in this section shall be
construed to affect existing law or authorities, relating to
the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident
aliens of the United States or any other persons who are
captured or arrested in the United States.
Think of it as you will.
I just don't understand why the media needs to be so lame about this. How about some information? Why do we even have a media if they do nothing?
Replies
Do you have any more information surrounding that image?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2068180/The-tin-blue-line-The-incredible-police-barrier-used-anti-cuts-demonstrators-highjack-strikes-bid-cause-chaos.html
not related to OWS.
basically, government workers went on strike yesterday, including teachers and stuff. it's all union related, and it boils down to their pensions being adjusted in order to help clear the UK's deficit.
i think it's a load of bollox, and if i thought it would do any good, i'd love to write a letter to just about every news place in the country saying something along the lines of "fine, if that's the case, fire a teacher, i'll take their job with the lowered pension and the 4 months of holiday time every year, and the better than minimum wage salery. and i'll even make sure all the kids in my class pass their exams".
at the end of the day, in a country which keeps having "a shortage of teachers", and more importantly, a shortage of jobs. there are plenty of people who could replace our current teachers quite happily with what our teachers are currently paid.
My dad is an English teacher (here in the Netherlands) and I can assure you he is working his ass of for the money he receives. Checking tests every weekend, working full days, teachers should not be underestimated. [ame="
Redirecting the class anger at the teachers making them out to be some kind of government fat cat is a pretty classic diversion tactic.
Have not: Spare some change?
Have: "Here buddy have a slice of cake on me."
Have not: Thanks! nom nom nom
Have: "Don't blame me (even though everyone knows I broke your system), blame... this guy over here he's the real mastermind behind this. LOOK! He's eating all of your cake!"
To Gir:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/38487/Opinion_Virtually_Occupied.php
Some great industry-related analogies and discussion there
My mother has been a teacher her entire life, she has paid for 10+years of higher education, constantly pays for school supplies with her own money and to top it off makes less than I do and works longer hours 60-80hrs per week with only 40hrs of pay. To top it off the unions for the last 10 years have been doing nothing but giving up ground on benefits and pay. When they get a contract to vote on its not how much more are we getting, its "great how am I going to live on this now".
Constantly downgrading your lifestyle again and again just so you can still have a job, so you can try to inspire the next generation is a tough road to take. Normally people are lead to believe that things get better as you get older which is probably why Gir is willing to take a crap job for crap pay, "it will get better". Well no it doesn't, the deal you get only gets worse if you're a teacher. You can always count on the government coming back looking for teachers to give up more and more.
What's really disgusting is that they've taken all they can reasonably take and now they have to resort to demonizing them just so they can take a little more.
Not to mention they are expected to do a better job with more and more kids being stuffed into classrooms, the apathy of the students, the parents and society at large, it is astounding anyone would sign up for that... especially given all the schooling they have to go through.
i'm sorry, how did you get that at all from my post? what i'm saying is they get paid better than most (here in england). most here being defined as the bottom line.
and while i agree it might take quite a bit of education to teach at a college or university level, a monkey could teach at primary and secondary school level.
case in point, i had to correct my sons maths teacher at a recent parents evening because she failed to complete an equation backwards (meaning it was done wrong).
the main point here being: there are people more than able, and willing to teach for less than teachers currently get paid, and would be WAY more than happy with the reduced pension being given to teachers now. especially when you considder the other benefits that come with being a teacher, like the massive holiday time.
no man. i've ben unemployed for 3 years now, it fucking sucks. especially when i know i could do half the jobs out there better than the people currently doing them.
the obvious exception here being game art, which i know i couldn't do better, but i'm working on that... funny thing though, being unemployed has actually DEMOTIVATED me to do better. it's a harsh slum to get out of.
so no, the reason i would take that job with "shitty pay", isn't because i think it'll get better. it's because I WANT A FUCKING JOB.
my mum is a receptionist at a school, and earns ~£12 per hour. AND she gets weekends, half term, and full term holidays off, including that lovely 6 weeker in the middle of the summer. and this reduced pension she just went on strike over, is still better than anyone working for minumum wage at the local grocery store could ever even dream of. essentially they're striking because they don't like the fact that times might get slightly harder for them, but nowhere even close to how hard they are for other people ALL THE TIME.
sorry for the rage. but i'm starting to get a little pissed at people (generalisation incoming) who claim that x or y have shitty wages... well, shitty compared to what? compared to you? or compared to the bottom line?
because right now i'm below the bottom line. i'm actually a NEGATIVE figure, i won't even be entitled to a STATE PENSION because i've been unemployed so long that my NI contributions won't cover it.
And those people are perfectly free to go, get themselves educated, and and get a job. In fact, if they are more able and more willing they probably would be teachers. The fact that those people are not teachers points pretty strongly to the fact that they are, in the least, not more willing.
Anyways, for my money (because teachers are paid with my money), I'd prefer to make sure teachers are very well paid, and very happy. They have significant effects on the generations of children that go through their classes, so we should be encouraging the best of people to go into the profession, and make sure that it is worth it for those people.
If you are the kind of person that looks at teachers and says "Shit, I'd do that for the amount of money they get!" - you are exactly the type of person I'd never want teaching.
[edit] Also, to this:
Quite the opposite, I'm getting pissed off at this bullshit attitude that because shit sucks in one place, anyone trying to make it better anywhere else are wrong and bad. Fuck that bullshit man.
You think you're below bottom line? Look at 3rd world parts of Africa. It's worse. By your own logic you should shut the fuck up about how bad your life is, because you are doing way better than they are there.
Fact is that in many parts of the world, teachers are UNDERPAID and OVERWORKED. Sure teachers get the summer off, but many show up to work 40 hours a week, and then do 20 more hours a week grading assignments, setting up lesson plans etc. Not to mention that this is well educated, skilled and extremely stressful work we're talking here.
Should they be happy to be employed? Sure, many people aren't these days. Should they be happy with stagnating or reduced wages and reduced benefits couple with constantly increasing cost of living? I don't see any logic as to why they should.
Belittling people for having the audacity to stand up for themselves is just ignorant bullshit on your part.
Yes.
And yes.
This is the opposition of OWS by many of the general public in a nutshell. It shouldn't be an opening for a misery pissing match, but that's how many people are treating it.
i'm college educated, and can't get a job in my town, because it's overrun by terkish and polish people who work for less than ligitimate wages.
oh wait that doesn't just happen in america anymore?!
oh and... african politics are why africans are so hard off. ask if anyone in the governments within africa are either starving, hungry, or less than rich.
You have an influx of college educated immigrants that are taking all the highly skilled jobs for lower wages? If it's like America, they are taking all the low paid horrible jobs you'd never apply for in the first place.
case in point: Georgia cracked down on illegal immigration, scaring all the migrant workers away. You'd think the desperate unemployed Georgians would snatch up all the seasonal harvesting jobs but instead fields are rotting and farms are shutting down. Even ex-cons who have a harder time finding work are walking off after a day of picking peaches in the hot sun all day.
actually it's worse than that. during the last governments reign, Tesco secured a deal whereby they could employ polish immigrants at a reduced rate of pay, in return they subsidised their food cost as long as the food was purchased at tesco, and also subsidised their housing costs while they worked at tesco.
it actually profited tesco to do this, and they didn't offer it to any english people.
no, you just deliberately missed my point.
Wait back up...
So you're willing to stick a knife in a teachers back and go around the union to steal a teachers job, but then you turn around and blame others for doing the same thing?
If you're fine with screwing over teachers then you're fine with getting screwed.
i get where you're coming from with that one. but that's still not the point i was making.
anyway, i'm going to leave this thread, because i get the impression i'm coming off as an ass to you guys.
I thought i was a miserable cunt , but it seems that you're totally outdoing me, gir.
(i argue so poorly, i throw insults in way too hastily... not that i really care if i convince you of anything)
i used to be damned good at arguing, and now i can't even make a coherant point heh. cheers jack.
This was an issue during the times of the London riots, they were being dismissed as opportunistic for looting or just doing it for the sake of it without truelly digging deeper.
People fascinate me but its such love hate relationship, videos like that teacher one go a long way into restoring some faith into society but for the most part i might as well be a misanthrope haha.
I think this can be said about every profession out there. Pay is getting cut and the performance demand is increasing, forcing people to do more for less. We're slowly marching towards a world where only a handful of people are employed at a level that can sustain them while everyone else is going to be a third world people in a first world country.
These days, the most stable professions out there are in health care and the military. That doesn't seem ironic at all now does it?
You're confusing the health care industry with the health insurance industry. HMO's make money by not paying for treatment, leaving it to the patient. There is still a high demand for medical professionals because people can't afford preventative care and ignore their ills until they can't. Then, they have no choice but to seek medical help, driving up demand for health care professionals. Also, I said the military, not the military industrial complex. There is plenty of employment if you become a soldier or a medic. That is the irony.
I think everyone should be paid appropriately for their work. However, that being said, 90% of all my teachers growing up were terrible, and I've spent the remainder of my life essentially realizing how I should do the opposite of what I was taught in school. I had elementary school teachers tell me that drinking chocolate milk was bad for me, because the chocolate "took all the nutrients out". I had a speech teacher who forced us to lip sync Britney Spears (I shit you not) lest we fail the class. My astronomy teacher couldn't tell me how it was that we always see the same face of the moon, if in fact both the moon and the earth are revolving - I had to look it up myself on youtube. And I don't think it's anything but common sense but to realize that 90% of anything they ever forced on you in high school was essentially one giant waste of time.
Graduating a semester early and jumping into the real world was the most intelligent school related decision I have ever made.
Long story short, I think teachers should be paid more, but I also think we should hold our teachers to a higher standard - and to balance that out, we also need to hold our children to a higher standard. These days good teachers are punished for failing asinine punks, and students who strive to pursue goals are frowned upon for trying to get ahead of the class or their peers.
Also just to add, tech support is also a ridiculously stable place to be employed. (Though I don't recommend it, haha).
I would like proof of this more than your hearsay. I have not found anything about this specifically online. Further, even in the UK, I would highly doubt this to be legal. As it is, HOW would they know all immigrants food purchases were done at Tesco? Claiming such is not a reasonable statement to even say. For a college education your coming off quite ignorant and bigoted.
ofcourse they are going to keep cut school funding while raising the cost of post secondary to astronomical levels, if everyone has a sub par education an cant afford to go to university, then those who have shitloads of money/power will be able too educate themselves and get the jobs with power/money while the rest of the sheeple are enslaved to shitty jobs and continually are feeding the people in power money through their desire to have whatever they are told they need. not only that but why not get them super indebted to the banks for student loans so they are forced to work their asses of to pay it back.
so why would they (corporations, government, banks etc) want anyone to actually wake up from their consumer driven stupor of daily lives and start thinking about whats actually going on in the world?
This.
The Occupy Movement is about turning that around. I wish more people who are in the Public Sector, and were protesting for a day this week, would support the Occupy Movement as they are linked. Unfortunately the majority of society fails to realise what the Occupy Movement is really about and just sees loads of "hippies" trying to tear down democracy and our way of life....Hopefully peoples views will change and they will become more informed as this movement grows.
that's actually pretty funny.
but as long as youtube is flash based, it'll never work.
Unless there is another version? I'm talking about the mobile version.
Absolutely.
Broken education system + Private prison system x Corrupted government = Civilization of consumers, to be farmed accordingly
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Then you have corporations "helping" public schools by providing funding, but only if they can have advertising rights and shove consumerism down children's throats uninterrupted. I can see it now... "today's math assignment has been brought to you by Red Bull; It gives you wings". It almost seems like this has always been part of one big plan...
Teacher: "Today's math assignment is available from the vending machine at the back of the classroom"
Student: "Umm... is it broken it only hands out Red Bull?"
Teacher: nope not broken as long as you put your money in you get an A."
Teacher: "Oh and be sure to give me your empty cans, its part of the new 'we don't pay teachers' incentive program."
Teacher: "remember class next week is our clothing drive, remind your parents to dig through their closets, especially those of you who have parents that are about my height and weight."
Errr, article sounds like bs to me. Full of loaded language, and little fact to back it up. Just my impression.
Subject to interpretation basically. The people in favor of it said it couldn't apply to U.S. citizens because of the supreme court decision against Hamdi but there was some concern over whether or not that actually applied to U.S. Citizen's arrested inside of the U.S., because Hamdi was a U.S. citizen arrested inside Afghanistan.
I can tell you though in light of the Supreme Court decision it's highly unlikely they'd decide that anybody inside the U.S. is fair game...
I can't remember the exact article as it's already been removed but if it was essentially the same as every other article on the subject claiming you could detain anyone indefinitely without trial then it's false but kind of not really... maybe...
Even ignoring the above applicability to U.S. citizens, the idea of indefinitely detaining people without trial or just cause is directly at odds with habeas corpus which would have made trying to do it incredibly difficult... That said, habeas corpus isn't the bulletproof safeguard it once was anymore and there are ways around it.
This is all really a moot point, the ammendment was defeated by the "traitorous" senate in a roll call vote by Senator Rand Paul.
Also the president has threatened to veto it, so as far as I know it hasn't been signed into law. His problems with it isn't really that citizens can be subject to indefinite internment but that it muddies the water between police and the military, which is good, let the military do what it does best, kill people who are clearly marked as enemies by the uniform they wear. Let the intelligence community do what it does best by digging through your trash and tapping your phone.
However if he does sign it as is, I'm going to have a really hard time voting for him next year.
To me it sounds like they're identifying any person that has even the loosest connection to not only al qaeda and the taliban, but any organization related to those. Basically, anyone and their mothers. But that's just my interpretation.
Then the following section is where it specifies that US citizens are included:
Think of it as you will.
I just don't understand why the media needs to be so lame about this. How about some information? Why do we even have a media if they do nothing?