adam - I totally agree with what you've said - just a quick spiel:
Basically forums like polycount (mainly polycount), despite all the cats and penis tanks, have helped me grow and evolve as an artist - especially all the tut's, 'making of's', walkthroughs etc.
One point though, maybe it's just me but i have noticed a bit more of this explanations and processes increasing over the years - more so due to the new pc site and it's new format.
However In regards to crits - proper critique, I do agree there has been more of a art 'dump' mindset - and the following ass-kissing fanboy comments encroaching into posts ( I admit, I'm guilty) - not sure how you would moderate this.
This is why most of my posts have been in the Tech forum. People come in and ask a question to learn something and the answers the PC community give just add to a bigger pool of knowledge. It's really the best part next to WAYWO and the challenges...
I agree with what BluPanda said. Often I am short on time, like, i just dont have the time to show how i did my textures, etc. People quite often ask me things, and most of the time I just dont have the time to put together a video, etc. I even have tons of recorded stuff that I never had time to compress and post, for example. Another thing is that I really dont see my methods as something you can learn from, haha So i can kinda understand when people dont bother to post stuff about how they did it, since I know i invest ALOT of time in 3d, and I sitll have trouble finding the time. But having said that, I do agree with what adam is saying, just that I know that I myself is pretty guilty of this
I'm almost ready to post a thread on my workflow for 28mm miniature production, from ZBrush > 3D Print > Green Stuff > Mold > Little plastic guys > .. Profit?
Truly a learning experience, I feel like a pioneer! :x
FYI, I would LOVE to read this. I've been working on some models for a Dungeons & Dragons campaign (35mm) that I plan to 3D print and it would be great to see your process
Maybe it's the name? P&P doesn't really make me think of sharing or any of the "behind the scenes" type of thread. P&P sounds more like a place to brag and be showered in hot artist love. Rename it, or create a new section, to something like "Sharing and Learning" thread "Show off your work and how you did it, here. This is place to ask for advice. No question is too noob."
Firstly many of the artists that are posting inspiring work on here are in full time industry positions and chances are their probably providing feedback and training people on a daily basis.
Some times people are physically too busy to answer everyone's questions, and people should be more grateful when people in their positions provide for the community.
Secondly, you'll learn a lot more trying to recreate someones techniques without following a step by step tutorial.
I think the main thing that made me stop going into PnP and giving crits and feedback was the attitude of the posters.
I got a lot of 'Yeah, that's just my style.' or 'yeah, I know that.'
It just seemed like they weren't wanting help. A lot of of the new kids at the time didn't take any feedback seriously unless it came from certain people even though it was the exact same feedback.
So I leave the crits and feedback to those who have the patience for it. I have enough stress in my life to really deal with dismissive artists.
Although, whenever I post art dumps (which is super rare) I always make sure to answer any questions that people may ask.
I think the main thing that made me stop going into PnP and giving crits and feedback was the attitude of the posters.
I got a lot of 'Yeah, that's just my style.' or 'yeah, I know that.'
It just seemed like they weren't wanting help. A lot of of the new kids at the time didn't take any feedback seriously unless it came from certain people even though it was the exact same feedback.
So I leave the crits and feedback to those who have the patience for it. I have enough stress in my life to really deal with dismissive artists.
Although, whenever I post art dumps (which is super rare) I always make sure to answer any questions that people may ask.
I completely agree and its one of the reasons I don't offer critiques in P&P as much as I used to. If they don't say they are looking for C&C then if I server it up it's probably going over like a lead balloon.
It takes quite a bit of time to explain specific things, sometimes requiring a visual example or some kind of paint over and its just not worth it if the person isn't going to appreciate it.
If people are looking for help, ask questions or express an interest in having a fresh pair of eyes look at something they've been working on a little too closely, I'll gladly help out but more and more it seems like people don't expect that to happen in P&P, and more often those type of questions get asked in Tech Talk where I like to hang out.
As much as I like the P&P name maybe its time for a change to W.I.P. & Pimpin'? Because I don't think enough people understand the Preview part of P&P.
It just seemed like they weren't wanting help. A lot of of the new kids at the time didn't take any feedback seriously unless it came from certain people even though it was the exact same feedback.
I wonder if a +1 button would help reduce the clutter. If all you want to do is give an OMG/pants explosion then just +1. if you have something useful to add then post.
This is something I've been guilty of, sometimes I don't think I have anything to contribute but at the same time feel they deserve some recognition for what they've done, having overlooked threads or whatnot. So yeah +1s I'd be happy with.
I'm not a fan of +1 or like buttons tbh. Before you know it we'll be giving each other llama badges. Whats that about?....
Although...for some people on who think its like an achievement to get as many posts as possible. It might be like a new mission for them to get to the top of the +1 charts. So those people might start posting more constructive stuff just for the +1's. hmmm...dilemma
I'd be down for a +1 system if it was there for the person who started the thread as like a thank-you for usefull posts or something. I'm all for giving people props but it kinda sux to open up P&P and see the TF2 thread with 6 stars or whatever and 0 for mine.
One thing about the +1 thing, I've been on a few forums that have the 'thanks for a helpful post' thing, and you will see a mid-level artist posting up something that is good, but full of flaws. The first ten posts will be people saying "OMG soooo perfect!" & "jizz+pants etc." The original poster will reply to each of these posts, saying thanks, and giving a +1 to each.
Then I'll post what I believe to be some valid critique, and I do not receive a reply much less a +1. I'm sure the polycount community is not a bunch of ass kissers, but we've seen those type of posters here, and I'd hate to see it go that way.
Maybe have it per thread like scudz suggests, like a +1 for Awesomeness and a seperate +1 for helpfulness. So when I want to find a [helpful+] (technique wise) thread, I can find one quickly, and when I need some inspiration, or just want to look at polygon porn, then I'll look up the [Awesome+] threads.
If used correctly, it could help organize these threads. I don't know how many mini-tuts that are buried inside of a random thread that I've missed.
Look at conceptart.org. Just...don't. Don't ever do that here at polycount, please. It only encourages people who can't be arsed to say even one useful thing.
or the snarkiest, sarcastic comment posts get +1bajillion thanks or something and all the meat-n-potatoes good shit gets lost/ignored. I agree it would not be helpful.
Since when does post count, +1, or "reputation points" mean anything around here?
This is Polycount not Postcount!
I always thought reputation and status in this community was built by posting good art, critiques, tutorials, and tech advice.
Maybe we should just get rid of all that info under people's posts like the null -> vertex -> triangle, etc... rating, the post count, and join date.
That way threads/posts will more likely to be responded to on the individual merit of their content by those that seemingly perceive post count(and the like) as some sort of measuring stick.
Then again those people probably aren't contributing much around here anyway... but still it might help cut down on useless posts.
I haven't read through the whole post so apologies if I'm re-iterating what many have said before. I agree with what Adam is saying, and I'll admit that i fall into the category of one who could post a bit more. People have asked me about my work flow often and I have every intention of helping people out but it just takes some time. I'm actually prepping things so I can get my Brawl entry released so people can open it up in UDK and take a look. I feel bad because sometimes questions go un-answered.
That's why I like competitions so much, because constructive crits are peaked and you're bouncing ideas off people, and you're forced to post w.i.p. images. You're pretty much learning at an accelerated pace.
Hello Adam, interesting thread. I have been wondering about this subject lately too and your post makes me want to point out a few things.
First of all I think that it is important to realize that times have changed. I am not a nostaligic person at all - but internet forums and their communities are quite different now from what they used to be 5 or 10 years ago. Forums and CG art themselves didn't change much, actually. But the amount of information and number of registered artists increased by huge amounts.
Polycount used to be a much smaller and almost underground place, and this alone might explain why in the past people took more time to post "living" WIP threads, and also used to take the time to write good critical write-ups. It was just a matter of recognizing a few names, greeting the newcomers, and enjoy a very healthy creative art community.
Now, for the better or worse, the amount of participants is multiplied and threads get started at a high rate (I won't say anything about the GD trolls since this has been covered already). I think that more content is fine, but it is time to find better ways to filter and present the information.
I hope it won't sound too harsh, but I think that the forum format we are using is waaaay outdated and not up to the demands of a modern art community. A text based forum is fine to collect information for a beta testing program, for instance. The PC wiki is great too, and the weekly recaps on the main PC hub are a step in the right direction. But as a tool for an art community, when you think about it the format of the PC forums doesn't make much sense.
Again, when the community was small it was okay. But now, this is what I see when I check PnP :
But this is what I see when I check the CGHub main page :
It doesn't take much to realize that the CGHub format is a much stronger incentive to go and look at art. (Now I don't fully like their format, since clicking on an image doesn't open a thread but only a link to the picture, and a chain of asskissing comments and likes. And I never checked their forum either. But you get the idea.)
A first step in a more visually enticing format would be to finally adopt thread thumbnails. It would make such a huge difference!!
I also think that a nice grid view of current threads (represented by their thumbnails - no text or title) would make browsing easier - and therefore, would make people more eager to comment, crit and contribute. I'll make a mockup later, but I am sure you see what I mean. (Basically, something like this CGhub screenshot but ordered according to the time of the last post, instead of just random sorting or sorting by popularity)
Same goes for the sketchbook threads. I rarely browse them because honestly, the text formatting of the list just does nothing to me. There are true gems in there where I would love to ask questions ; and also very motivated artists willing to grow, that I would love to help. But digging through an endless list of sketchbook threads represented as text list ? No thanks.
Another thing to think about is the actual nature of our art threads. I personally would like to see a distinction between A : original works (original models and concepts fully done from start to finish, environment pieces and their progress, characters retakes like for the Brawl challenge) and B :"execution" work (gun modelling, and so on).
These two categories both have their place on PC, but being able to filter A from B might help viewers and contributors find what they want to find more easily. Again - filtering information is a great way to get peoples attention.
There are a few ways to do that. For starters I would suggest you guys to look at Pulse on the iPad/iPhone. It is very simple, but very efficient. As a matter of fact (and quite ironically) Polycount posts with attached pictures shows up fine in there, and are, indeed, making me want to have a look and post.
So in short - I agree with you on the point that the community needs more active contribution, both from OP posters and commenters. But it also needs to provide more modern tools to filter out and represent the forum contents. It can be simply done, but it would certainly would have us let go of some of the "vintage" aspect of PC (text based threads). After all, we do have the "Your portfolio repells jobs" thread. Why don't we apply its principles to the forum itself ?
Hope this helps...
(And by the way - please PLEASE, no "+1", "likes", "thanks" or anything of the kind. The fact that 99% of internet users are stupid uneducated attention whores does not justify turning PC into a social network kind of thing. Lets keep it barebones and to the point.)
Oh wow Pior, I didnt realise how good that Pulse preview is!! Definitely makes me want to click on threads when I see a picture instead of having to decode the internals from the Thread Title.
Personally I like that idea, but when it comes down to it I don't link to the front pages of most of the communities I visit. I have book mark for 'new threads/posts' made on almost all the sites I visit (which is only under a half dozen now). So for me the suggestions Pior put up are all good ones but would make little to no difference in how I view the content anyway.
My first post on polycount was a tutorial but i think it never got approved by a mod or maybe it just sucks. No replies, only 65 views. Perhaps what happend to my thread is part of the problem.
I think the problem isnt that people wont cirtic or look at your work or something, as they do. Like pointed out earlier if you ask for critics and react to it its fine people around here really do help, look at the how do you model dem shapes thread for example.
For me its just frustrating if you criticise someone and he/she just does not care.
Even that cool character study group died out (sad enough)
I'm with pior. Images is what this forum is about so lets have some images in our faces, rather than us having to wade through threads to find new image updates. Now that I come to think of it, the text based nature of PC does feel really old.
Heres an example of what I mentioned a few pages ago about ZBC having a recent images bar in their Main forum. I've taken recent images from today on ZBC and put it into the P&P header. It needn't be 2 rows high it could be 1 row if space is valuable up there. The Sketchbook forum should also have something like this.
I suggest we dont have a top shelf though. As we already have the Banner and that sufficient imo. Also, images of Cats and memes should be banned in P&P and Sketchbook forums, and should be removed if anyone uploads any, with maybe a slap on the wrist for the offender. So that the recent images doesnt get cluttered.
EDIT: actually, just thinking a bit more. Images posted in the WAYWO thread shouldn't be put in the recent images bar either. Else it would just spam it. Maybe it needs a bit more thought. But I think its needed to draw attention to peoples work.
I wasn't suggesting a per person +1 thing, that would make everything worse.
What I was suggesting is a per thread +1 button, not visible from outside the thread.
so if folks only want to say 'awesome i love it, then they click their button and dont clutter up the thread.
anyway it seems like people dont like the idea so that out
Im not sure an image header will help much, all those ever do is make people lazier, they dont read this listing, all they do is go straight from the main page to the current trending threads and the quieter threads disappear into obscurity. that'll just lead to more ass grabbing, and less exposure/help for people who need it.
I wasn't suggesting a per person +1 thing, that would make everything worse.
What I was suggesting is a per thread +1 button, not visible from outside the thread.
so if folks only want to say 'awesome i love it, then they click their button and dont clutter up the thread.
anyway it seems like people dont like the idea so that out
Yeah I think it was an alright solution to everyone complaining about people giving praise, but I think people would complain about anything related to that. I honestly don't think people trying to get as many posts or +1s or whatnot is a noticable issue on polycount, I've seen it on GA but not here. I'm not sure if the problem is that people have agendas to get high in postcount or the problem is the people having a feeling that others have an agenda like that.
Well, if I see a piece that really amazes me that doesn't already have alot of praise posts then I will.
Im not sure an image header will help much, all those ever do is make people lazier, they dont read this listing, all they do is go straight from the main page to the current trending threads and the quieter threads disappear into obscurity. that'll just lead to more ass grabbing, and less exposure/help for people who need it.
I dont know if it makes people lazier but it certainly speeds up my browsing and draws my attention to any image updates at ZBC. Which would give me more time in which I could spend time commenting on things. I spose everything has pros and cons but when I have 30mins lunch break, quick browsing is very important.
About trending threads. Quieter threads will disappear into obscurity. Thats how all forums work. Keep uploading art and you'll get attention, keep asking questions, you'll get answers. Art "celebrities" are going to get the most attention, theres no escaping that.
I dont know if it makes people lazier but it certainly speeds up my browsing and draws my attention to any image updates at ZBC. Which would give me more time in which I could spend time commenting on things. I spose everything has pros and cons but when I have 30mins lunch break, quick browsing is very important.
About trending threads. Quieter threads will disappear into obscurity. Thats how all forums work. Keep uploading art and you'll get attention, keep asking questions, you'll get answers. Art "celebrities" are going to get the most attention, theres no escaping that.
this is true, but a persons chance to get seen relies of folks looking at the forum listing. if people stop looking at the listing then you have even less chance of getting feedback.
If anything i think thread previews would be nice. atleast everyone gets their bit of exposure and the really nice threads will be easy to spot.
since when did this thread become "how to improve polycount" thread ?
don't try fixing something that isn't broken. personally i think polycount is working just fine. no changes needed. the more bare bones the forums is the better.
filtering and putting image thumbnails in front is gonna lead to more ignored threads and more lazy viewers.
everything is fine the way it is, people just need to use more common sense and think before they post. not every brain fart needs to be posted here.
A like system will only lead to people who might have commented something useful clicking the like button because it is more convenient.
Rating systems only do harm unless you put an excellence icon in front of the thread when something got voted on like 200 times ,but then again that stuff will get bannered anyway.
I do like the thumbnail (ca.org style) idea for WIP threads but not the zbrushcentral style ontop thumbnails.
Sometimes it's hard to depict what something is about just by the title. Like Pior said being able to filter threads between original and execution for example would be great too but then again you don't want posting images to become an entire survey to fill out like when you try to upload something to CA.org and deviantart.
MM: Something that isn't broken can still be improved
since when did this thread become "how to improve polycount" thread ?
don't try fixing something that isn't broken. personally i think polycount is working just fine. no changes needed. the more bare bones the forums is the better.
filtering and putting image thumbnails in front is gonna lead to more ignored threads and more lazy viewers.
everything is fine the way it is, people just need to use more common sense and think before they post. not every brain fart needs to be posted here.
just my 2 cents.
Well. Improvement might be what PC needs to get more helpful feedback to the people who need it. The fact that Adam has felt strong enough to bring up this subject might indicate that, in fact PC is "broken".
Asking people to be more thoughtful and post feedback in those threads that get less attention is a problem and the issue gets raised now and again. People say "ok, i'll start trying to help those threads" but it doesnt last.
Pior and myself have suggested possible features that might help. I'm no web designer but maybe someone here is and maybe they could critique PC itself. Maybe the "flow" is all wrong. Forum hits and stats might provide more insight into how people use PC....I dunno.
I actually like PC as it is as well, but I do think it needs something to get people looking at WIP and sketchbook threads more. Not just asking people to do so.
Well. Improvement might be what PC needs to get more helpful feedback to the people who need it. The fact that Adam has felt strong enough to bring up this subject might indicate that, in fact PC is "broken".
well i disagree. one person making a thread about why people don't explain their work doesn't amount to the network being "broken"
when i started out learning about game art there was very little explanations/tutorials for most of the thing that i wanted to do(at least things that made technical/aesthetic sense). lot of the stuff i had to learn by trial and error and as a result i understand the core workings of this much better that i would have by following someone else tutorial. beside that, most of the stuff i learned was also by just looking at other art pieces. lot of my time was spent downloading demo reels, portfolio images, etc. then i went through them and tried to deconstruct them and tried to recreate them.
i wont argue that tutorials are helpful and what not, but like Gavin and several other great professional artists in this thread already mentioned, the knowledge does not need to be spoon fed to the mass. it is the responsibility of the learners to ask, probe for information.
however, right now you see a lot of "how do i get feedback/critique" thread or "why don't i get enough critique" threads.
most of them these are pointless. lot of them don't need feedback, they are just too lazy to look deeper into their own works and compare with with others works. they are too lazy to google, too lazy to research more reference, just too damn lazy for everything.
lot of this threads are too early at a stage for feedback. for example you cant teach a 1 year old boy how to spell "aesthetic". he has to learn how to speak first. same way, every artist has to go through their own stage of self development on their own.
feedback comes later when they actually are capable of understanding the feedback.
creating a more pampered social network where information is further spoon fed to those who are too damn lazy to do the hard work leads to more fail society!
THERE WILL NOT BE A FUCKING +1 EVER! That shit is full retard.
also no thanks button please. these are just noob concepts for noob forums. currently there is no thread rating or view count for the same reason. we dont need to noobify this forum and push it to mediocrity. what next? facebook share buttons and tweet links ?
i wont argue that tutorials are helpful and what not, but like Gavin and several other great professional artists in this thread already mentioned, the knowledge does not need to be spoon fed to the mass. it is the responsibility of the learners to ask, probe for information.
however, right now you see a lot of "how do i get feedback/critique" thread or "why don't i get enough critique" threads.
most of them these are pointless. lot of them don't need feedback, they are just too lazy to look deeper into their work works and compare with with others works. they are too lazy to google, too lazy to research more reference, just too damn lazy for everything.
Yeah this pretty much sums up what I feel has gone on lately. We have a ton of new people and it is nice to see so many faces taking an interest in Polycount BUT I think a lot of the newer guys/gals don't quite understand the culture Polycount has had in the past and why guys like Gav and myself are getting a little annoyed I guess you could call it with how people want to be spoon fed and how we need to put our kid gloves on to deal with some people. I have had my ass torn apart since joining Polycount from guys like Johny, Kevin, Vahl, EQ, Adam, etc I have saved just about all the messages and when I have time to fix some of the things I do. I know I need to do a completely new portfolio. I've had the same one for over a year or so, minus a few pieces here or there and it didn't get shit for interest from any where. So what does that tell me? People aren't hiring? OR is it my folio sucks and is missing shit people want to see? It is missing shit. A lot of shit! So when I have my free time in between my full time gig, freelance, family and whatever else is always going on I spend my time working on things and trying to get better. I haven't posted up a lot of art in a while. Mainly because I don't have a lot to show, or something I think is worth while right now.
Also our industry is rough right now. Most of the time 100+ people are competing for 1 or 2 positions at a company. I have worked on larger titles mainly using Unreal since starting my career and now I work on iOS/web/mobile dev in Unity. It isn't my dream but I am learning a ton and I am being forced to get out of my comfort zone and learn new things and when I go home and do my freelance or personal projects a lot of those new things I've learned translate well.
I enjoy the helpful posts and write ups just as much as anyone else and find them extremely helpful. I can easily admit as an artist I have a lot of short comings and areas I need to work on to improve. I think the most important part of learning is doing. I have had a bunch of awesome texture/material guys walk me through their process a few times and I've taken notes like a mad man BUT it takes practice to perfect these methods and improve upon them and be able to put those into daily production.
I would also like to see some thumbnails. I love the main page / news and updates but I would like to bring more art into polycount as well. So HOPEFULLY we can bring this in to our home in the near future.
AND I PROMISE MORE MINI COMPS / CHALLENGES ARE COMING SOON!!!
My first post on polycount was a tutorial but i think it never got approved by a mod or maybe it just sucks. No replies, only 65 views. Perhaps what happend to my thread is part of the problem.
Ok so I will write how I see things around here (from a rather new polycounter perspective). Polycount became my favourite forum. In Poland we actually have one good forum about CG and the game art there is pretty much dead or close to being dead. When I found Polycount the most important things that kept me here were : the quality and amount of good information and polycounters. People here for me are on a new level. In Poland its easy to offend someone. Here you can write "you suck" and people will know you don't mean it If you really don't ;] Distance and attitude makes this forum such a cool place. Places like cg hub are cool but actually I only jump in too check if this top bar with new pics has something new. I don't say "don't do flashy pictures everywhere". I just don't want Polycount to grow to a point where there will be so many people no one will care anymore. I hope the profile of this forum (game art) will prevent that from happening since its not that big of a community.
Recently we started those study groups. Not like the threads are bursting with content but we at least have skype conversation which is alive all the time. Of course several people use it but still it makes for really good atmosphere. Maybe this post will help, maybe not. I think the thing we should change is attitude. If you want your thread to be alive try to help others. I know it sucks when someone starts a thread and is even to lazy to google simple things. I hope Polycount will still be as cool place as it is and I hope my post wasn't as pointless as I see it now when I'm done with it
Replies
Basically forums like polycount (mainly polycount), despite all the cats and penis tanks, have helped me grow and evolve as an artist - especially all the tut's, 'making of's', walkthroughs etc.
One point though, maybe it's just me but i have noticed a bit more of this explanations and processes increasing over the years - more so due to the new pc site and it's new format.
However In regards to crits - proper critique, I do agree there has been more of a art 'dump' mindset - and the following ass-kissing fanboy comments encroaching into posts ( I admit, I'm guilty) - not sure how you would moderate this.
And cat image posting.
PC - Penis tanks and Cats.
The reason I'm here on Polycount
Adam stated all the things that used to bite me.
FYI, I would LOVE to read this. I've been working on some models for a Dungeons & Dragons campaign (35mm) that I plan to 3D print and it would be great to see your process
Firstly many of the artists that are posting inspiring work on here are in full time industry positions and chances are their probably providing feedback and training people on a daily basis.
Some times people are physically too busy to answer everyone's questions, and people should be more grateful when people in their positions provide for the community.
Secondly, you'll learn a lot more trying to recreate someones techniques without following a step by step tutorial.
I got a lot of 'Yeah, that's just my style.' or 'yeah, I know that.'
It just seemed like they weren't wanting help. A lot of of the new kids at the time didn't take any feedback seriously unless it came from certain people even though it was the exact same feedback.
So I leave the crits and feedback to those who have the patience for it. I have enough stress in my life to really deal with dismissive artists.
Although, whenever I post art dumps (which is super rare) I always make sure to answer any questions that people may ask.
It takes quite a bit of time to explain specific things, sometimes requiring a visual example or some kind of paint over and its just not worth it if the person isn't going to appreciate it.
If people are looking for help, ask questions or express an interest in having a fresh pair of eyes look at something they've been working on a little too closely, I'll gladly help out but more and more it seems like people don't expect that to happen in P&P, and more often those type of questions get asked in Tech Talk where I like to hang out.
As much as I like the P&P name maybe its time for a change to W.I.P. & Pimpin'? Because I don't think enough people understand the Preview part of P&P.
Also the thread on "How to get more replies/critiques" seems relevant to this discussion.
Your just not famous enough skanker.
This is something I've been guilty of, sometimes I don't think I have anything to contribute but at the same time feel they deserve some recognition for what they've done, having overlooked threads or whatnot. So yeah +1s I'd be happy with.
Although...for some people on who think its like an achievement to get as many posts as possible. It might be like a new mission for them to get to the top of the +1 charts. So those people might start posting more constructive stuff just for the +1's. hmmm...dilemma
just sayin.
Then I'll post what I believe to be some valid critique, and I do not receive a reply much less a +1. I'm sure the polycount community is not a bunch of ass kissers, but we've seen those type of posters here, and I'd hate to see it go that way.
Maybe have it per thread like scudz suggests, like a +1 for Awesomeness and a seperate +1 for helpfulness. So when I want to find a [helpful+] (technique wise) thread, I can find one quickly, and when I need some inspiration, or just want to look at polygon porn, then I'll look up the [Awesome+] threads.
If used correctly, it could help organize these threads. I don't know how many mini-tuts that are buried inside of a random thread that I've missed.
Ever.
Look at conceptart.org. Just...don't. Don't ever do that here at polycount, please. It only encourages people who can't be arsed to say even one useful thing.
This is Polycount not Postcount!
I always thought reputation and status in this community was built by posting good art, critiques, tutorials, and tech advice.
Maybe we should just get rid of all that info under people's posts like the null -> vertex -> triangle, etc... rating, the post count, and join date.
That way threads/posts will more likely to be responded to on the individual merit of their content by those that seemingly perceive post count(and the like) as some sort of measuring stick.
Then again those people probably aren't contributing much around here anyway... but still it might help cut down on useless posts.
That's why I like competitions so much, because constructive crits are peaked and you're bouncing ideas off people, and you're forced to post w.i.p. images. You're pretty much learning at an accelerated pace.
First of all I think that it is important to realize that times have changed. I am not a nostaligic person at all - but internet forums and their communities are quite different now from what they used to be 5 or 10 years ago. Forums and CG art themselves didn't change much, actually. But the amount of information and number of registered artists increased by huge amounts.
Polycount used to be a much smaller and almost underground place, and this alone might explain why in the past people took more time to post "living" WIP threads, and also used to take the time to write good critical write-ups. It was just a matter of recognizing a few names, greeting the newcomers, and enjoy a very healthy creative art community.
Now, for the better or worse, the amount of participants is multiplied and threads get started at a high rate (I won't say anything about the GD trolls since this has been covered already). I think that more content is fine, but it is time to find better ways to filter and present the information.
I hope it won't sound too harsh, but I think that the forum format we are using is waaaay outdated and not up to the demands of a modern art community. A text based forum is fine to collect information for a beta testing program, for instance. The PC wiki is great too, and the weekly recaps on the main PC hub are a step in the right direction. But as a tool for an art community, when you think about it the format of the PC forums doesn't make much sense.
Again, when the community was small it was okay. But now, this is what I see when I check PnP :
But this is what I see when I check the CGHub main page :
It doesn't take much to realize that the CGHub format is a much stronger incentive to go and look at art. (Now I don't fully like their format, since clicking on an image doesn't open a thread but only a link to the picture, and a chain of asskissing comments and likes. And I never checked their forum either. But you get the idea.)
A first step in a more visually enticing format would be to finally adopt thread thumbnails. It would make such a huge difference!!
I also think that a nice grid view of current threads (represented by their thumbnails - no text or title) would make browsing easier - and therefore, would make people more eager to comment, crit and contribute. I'll make a mockup later, but I am sure you see what I mean. (Basically, something like this CGhub screenshot but ordered according to the time of the last post, instead of just random sorting or sorting by popularity)
Same goes for the sketchbook threads. I rarely browse them because honestly, the text formatting of the list just does nothing to me. There are true gems in there where I would love to ask questions ; and also very motivated artists willing to grow, that I would love to help. But digging through an endless list of sketchbook threads represented as text list ? No thanks.
Another thing to think about is the actual nature of our art threads. I personally would like to see a distinction between A : original works (original models and concepts fully done from start to finish, environment pieces and their progress, characters retakes like for the Brawl challenge) and B :"execution" work (gun modelling, and so on).
These two categories both have their place on PC, but being able to filter A from B might help viewers and contributors find what they want to find more easily. Again - filtering information is a great way to get peoples attention.
There are a few ways to do that. For starters I would suggest you guys to look at Pulse on the iPad/iPhone. It is very simple, but very efficient. As a matter of fact (and quite ironically) Polycount posts with attached pictures shows up fine in there, and are, indeed, making me want to have a look and post.
So in short - I agree with you on the point that the community needs more active contribution, both from OP posters and commenters. But it also needs to provide more modern tools to filter out and represent the forum contents. It can be simply done, but it would certainly would have us let go of some of the "vintage" aspect of PC (text based threads). After all, we do have the "Your portfolio repells jobs" thread. Why don't we apply its principles to the forum itself ?
Hope this helps...
(And by the way - please PLEASE, no "+1", "likes", "thanks" or anything of the kind. The fact that 99% of internet users are stupid uneducated attention whores does not justify turning PC into a social network kind of thing. Lets keep it barebones and to the point.)
Hehe thats actually a great example of a thread that went totally unnoticed ...
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86606
For me its just frustrating if you criticise someone and he/she just does not care.
Even that cool character study group died out
Heres an example of what I mentioned a few pages ago about ZBC having a recent images bar in their Main forum. I've taken recent images from today on ZBC and put it into the P&P header. It needn't be 2 rows high it could be 1 row if space is valuable up there. The Sketchbook forum should also have something like this.
I suggest we dont have a top shelf though. As we already have the Banner and that sufficient imo. Also, images of Cats and memes should be banned in P&P and Sketchbook forums, and should be removed if anyone uploads any, with maybe a slap on the wrist for the offender. So that the recent images doesnt get cluttered.
ZBC main forum: http://www.zbrushcentral.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2
EDIT: actually, just thinking a bit more. Images posted in the WAYWO thread shouldn't be put in the recent images bar either. Else it would just spam it. Maybe it needs a bit more thought. But I think its needed to draw attention to peoples work.
What I was suggesting is a per thread +1 button, not visible from outside the thread.
so if folks only want to say 'awesome i love it, then they click their button and dont clutter up the thread.
anyway it seems like people dont like the idea so that out
Im not sure an image header will help much, all those ever do is make people lazier, they dont read this listing, all they do is go straight from the main page to the current trending threads and the quieter threads disappear into obscurity. that'll just lead to more ass grabbing, and less exposure/help for people who need it.
Yeah I think it was an alright solution to everyone complaining about people giving praise, but I think people would complain about anything related to that. I honestly don't think people trying to get as many posts or +1s or whatnot is a noticable issue on polycount, I've seen it on GA but not here. I'm not sure if the problem is that people have agendas to get high in postcount or the problem is the people having a feeling that others have an agenda like that.
Well, if I see a piece that really amazes me that doesn't already have alot of praise posts then I will.
I dont know if it makes people lazier but it certainly speeds up my browsing and draws my attention to any image updates at ZBC. Which would give me more time in which I could spend time commenting on things. I spose everything has pros and cons but when I have 30mins lunch break, quick browsing is very important.
About trending threads. Quieter threads will disappear into obscurity. Thats how all forums work. Keep uploading art and you'll get attention, keep asking questions, you'll get answers. Art "celebrities" are going to get the most attention, theres no escaping that.
this is true, but a persons chance to get seen relies of folks looking at the forum listing. if people stop looking at the listing then you have even less chance of getting feedback.
If anything i think thread previews would be nice. atleast everyone gets their bit of exposure and the really nice threads will be easy to spot.
don't try fixing something that isn't broken. personally i think polycount is working just fine. no changes needed. the more bare bones the forums is the better.
filtering and putting image thumbnails in front is gonna lead to more ignored threads and more lazy viewers.
everything is fine the way it is, people just need to use more common sense and think before they post. not every brain fart needs to be posted here.
just my 2 cents.
Rating systems only do harm unless you put an excellence icon in front of the thread when something got voted on like 200 times ,but then again that stuff will get bannered anyway.
I do like the thumbnail (ca.org style) idea for WIP threads but not the zbrushcentral style ontop thumbnails.
Sometimes it's hard to depict what something is about just by the title. Like Pior said being able to filter threads between original and execution for example would be great too but then again you don't want posting images to become an entire survey to fill out like when you try to upload something to CA.org and deviantart.
MM: Something that isn't broken can still be improved
No it won't. The people who have something to say, will surely say it. The ones that post 'OMG JIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIZZZZZ' can use the like button.
Well. Improvement might be what PC needs to get more helpful feedback to the people who need it. The fact that Adam has felt strong enough to bring up this subject might indicate that, in fact PC is "broken".
Asking people to be more thoughtful and post feedback in those threads that get less attention is a problem and the issue gets raised now and again. People say "ok, i'll start trying to help those threads" but it doesnt last.
Pior and myself have suggested possible features that might help. I'm no web designer but maybe someone here is and maybe they could critique PC itself. Maybe the "flow" is all wrong. Forum hits and stats might provide more insight into how people use PC....I dunno.
I actually like PC as it is as well, but I do think it needs something to get people looking at WIP and sketchbook threads more. Not just asking people to do so.
well i disagree. one person making a thread about why people don't explain their work doesn't amount to the network being "broken"
when i started out learning about game art there was very little explanations/tutorials for most of the thing that i wanted to do(at least things that made technical/aesthetic sense). lot of the stuff i had to learn by trial and error and as a result i understand the core workings of this much better that i would have by following someone else tutorial. beside that, most of the stuff i learned was also by just looking at other art pieces. lot of my time was spent downloading demo reels, portfolio images, etc. then i went through them and tried to deconstruct them and tried to recreate them.
i wont argue that tutorials are helpful and what not, but like Gavin and several other great professional artists in this thread already mentioned, the knowledge does not need to be spoon fed to the mass. it is the responsibility of the learners to ask, probe for information.
however, right now you see a lot of "how do i get feedback/critique" thread or "why don't i get enough critique" threads.
most of them these are pointless. lot of them don't need feedback, they are just too lazy to look deeper into their own works and compare with with others works. they are too lazy to google, too lazy to research more reference, just too damn lazy for everything.
lot of this threads are too early at a stage for feedback. for example you cant teach a 1 year old boy how to spell "aesthetic". he has to learn how to speak first. same way, every artist has to go through their own stage of self development on their own.
feedback comes later when they actually are capable of understanding the feedback.
creating a more pampered social network where information is further spoon fed to those who are too damn lazy to do the hard work leads to more fail society!
agreed. that would be an improvement. since we are using vbulletin i think technically it is possible to do so.
also no thanks button please. these are just noob concepts for noob forums. currently there is no thread rating or view count for the same reason. we dont need to noobify this forum and push it to mediocrity. what next? facebook share buttons and tweet links ?
Yeah this pretty much sums up what I feel has gone on lately. We have a ton of new people and it is nice to see so many faces taking an interest in Polycount BUT I think a lot of the newer guys/gals don't quite understand the culture Polycount has had in the past and why guys like Gav and myself are getting a little annoyed I guess you could call it with how people want to be spoon fed and how we need to put our kid gloves on to deal with some people. I have had my ass torn apart since joining Polycount from guys like Johny, Kevin, Vahl, EQ, Adam, etc I have saved just about all the messages and when I have time to fix some of the things I do. I know I need to do a completely new portfolio. I've had the same one for over a year or so, minus a few pieces here or there and it didn't get shit for interest from any where. So what does that tell me? People aren't hiring? OR is it my folio sucks and is missing shit people want to see? It is missing shit. A lot of shit! So when I have my free time in between my full time gig, freelance, family and whatever else is always going on I spend my time working on things and trying to get better. I haven't posted up a lot of art in a while. Mainly because I don't have a lot to show, or something I think is worth while right now.
Also our industry is rough right now. Most of the time 100+ people are competing for 1 or 2 positions at a company. I have worked on larger titles mainly using Unreal since starting my career and now I work on iOS/web/mobile dev in Unity. It isn't my dream but I am learning a ton and I am being forced to get out of my comfort zone and learn new things and when I go home and do my freelance or personal projects a lot of those new things I've learned translate well.
I enjoy the helpful posts and write ups just as much as anyone else and find them extremely helpful. I can easily admit as an artist I have a lot of short comings and areas I need to work on to improve. I think the most important part of learning is doing. I have had a bunch of awesome texture/material guys walk me through their process a few times and I've taken notes like a mad man BUT it takes practice to perfect these methods and improve upon them and be able to put those into daily production.
I would also like to see some thumbnails. I love the main page / news and updates but I would like to bring more art into polycount as well. So HOPEFULLY we can bring this in to our home in the near future.
AND I PROMISE MORE MINI COMPS / CHALLENGES ARE COMING SOON!!!
How do you see how many times a thread has been viewed?
Edit -
Just found it: Just hover the mouse over the "Last post" information.
Recently we started those study groups. Not like the threads are bursting with content but we at least have skype conversation which is alive all the time. Of course several people use it but still it makes for really good atmosphere. Maybe this post will help, maybe not. I think the thing we should change is attitude. If you want your thread to be alive try to help others. I know it sucks when someone starts a thread and is even to lazy to google simple things. I hope Polycount will still be as cool place as it is and I hope my post wasn't as pointless as I see it now when I'm done with it