Gav -- I still don't understand your problem with threads about attitudes. Motivation, artist block, what have you. New people coming in are asking for professional input on how to navigate around certain personally dilemmas specific to a game artist. What's the problem?
"I don't feel that it's my responsibility to spoon feed information to an online community of people who have more or less just posted memes and bitched about shit that they don't understand. Again, I've provided more insight than most about my work - if people can't use Google, this ain't my problem."
With this quote, you are then, the problem to which I brought up. What a terrible attitude to have. If you're in it for the art, then ignore GD and get straight to P&P. 90% of the time I am here, I am not in GD looking at Stan Marsh with jizz all over him.
It's not to ask someone "to spoon" feed information but to rather share your techniques with the ONLY audience that will appreciate the effort.
JordanW and everyone else: I love seeing artwork. I cannot stand hit & run posts of people just trying to shill themselves for whatever it is their receiving as a benefit. Exposure? Head inflation (ego)?
Log in to Polycount. Post art. Leave. Answer 1 or 2 questions. Move on to Gameartisans.org. Do the same. Then to mapcore. Do the same. Then to game-artist.net. Do the same. Then CGTalk. Do the same.
Pretty lame, IMO. (And I use to do this myself years ago.)
Also, personally whiny sidenote, i wish there was a bit more of an appreciation for/demand for serious 2d art skills around here.
We have a TON of hacks with no art fundamentals who seem to have no interest in learning shit about anatomy or design or color. There are definitely some amazing artists who focus almost entirely on 3d and i've never seen much 2d from -- you're one of them, adam! -- but by and large if you can't make a good painting you probably can't make a good model either. Real art fundamentals cross over a lot. You can practice them with oils or photoshop or zbrush or whatever, but if you can't design a good character and communicate who and what he is you can't make art that anybody is going to care about.
Pixelmasher up here comments about the tremendous lack of mid-skill information in the 3d world, and it definitely exists, but it's mainly because all of those mid level skills are things like color theory and anatomy and rendering materials and all these other fundamental skills that are firmly covered in traditional art education.
Gav brings up a good point. Does the stringent, elitist attitude of some forums foster more legitimate, professional posting? There are a LOT of assholes who've joined this forum since the tf2 contest who have no serious interest in learning about or discussing art. Also, NOBODY HERE ASKS QUESTIONS ABOUT ANYTHING. I haven't been asked about my workflow since i posted some knife model with a fancy spec like 2 years ago, and i don't see the much better artists than me getting many questions about anatomy or design either.
Maybe something as little as a change to the p&p description -- some paraprhase of "Use this forum to post and discuss artwork and workflow" would help foster the kind of culture you want?
TF2 "assholes": Report them. Seriously, if you see this sort of attitude report it. Otherwise it just sits there and festers.
TF2 "assholes": Report them. Seriously, if you see this sort of attitude report it. Otherwise it just sits there and festers.
I've never asked, and should have: Do you consider it valid to report people for generally vapid/meaningless posts like image macros? I don't know where the line is drawn on issues of personal taste that you guys may be way too busy to sift through and judge. I love this site in its current form and don't want to waste your time just because i find a kanye west image annoying.
Edit: Also, i should have noted in my earlier posts there ARE artists here, like neox and eq and per and pior and renderhjs who post a lot of INCREDIBLY insightful, well thought out discussion about their work. That kind of stuff is the main reason i come to polycount aside from just chilling in the community and killing time. Those guys are the best!
Also: I realize I cannot stop people from doing this. And honestly, I am ok with that. I just wanted to rant a bit and hope I encourage more people to share themselves with the communities out there beyond their beauty renders and wireframes.
I've never asked, and should have: Do you consider it valid to report people for generally vapid/meaningless posts like image macros? I don't know where the line is drawn on issues of personal taste that you guys may be way too busy to sift through and judge. I love this site in its current form and don't want to waste your time just because i find a kanye west image annoying.
Please do report it, yes. We might not remove it, but its nice for us to be made aware of people taking issues with things.
Another point worth making: IN a thread filled with "OMG SO AMAZING" you could try and lead by example with your own reply. It's what I do -- I typically ALWAYS ask a question or two in the same post I've told someone I enjoyed their work. Always.
You're blaming people for trying to get exposure. I assure you if I lost my job tomorrow my work would be on literally every forum I could think of. You can't argue with the fact that the more people who see your work the higher your chances are of making a connection.
I get more interest, questions, and better suggestions, in the WAYWO thread, than I do when I start a focused thread. My art is just art, there's no mystery to what I do, it's all plainly out there. I don't use crazy workflows, or one of a kind ZB brushes, or anything like that. So for me to try and explain what I do or how I achieved something, without someone asking a specific question, is pretty much a waste. It's all common knowledge.
I love seeing people sharing knowledge. Lemonheads sketchbook springs to mind. He did a few massive art dumps recently but then BAM! Tons of awesome info on his work process, etc.
Myself. I haven't updated my sketchbook in over a year I think, or created a WIP thread for a while now. I generally used to share a brief workflow of the process and explain things a bit with any image I uploaded. But these days I'm guilty of only posting in WAYWO and with very few words with it. Actually, I hardly visit the sketchbook forum now, I only look at threads I've commented on in the past.
Also, after I post the image here, it goes on my Blog, then on Deviant, sometimes ZBC, which feels like it take half an hour (excuse exaggeration). I usually share my work at the very end of the day as well. So I just want to drop it and go to bed (or play Minecraft). I always answer any questions people have on the workflow and I generally prefer to give feedback on work rather than "wow, Awesome".
I'm not sure I'll change though and start explaining things more. I'll try but I feel that the time spent explaining is better put to use actually doing the art.
Anyhoo, im not sure what my point is. I don't have a problem with PC as it is atm.
Oh, but I definately think PC could benefit from an thumbnail banner for all images uploaded into P&P and sketchbook (not GD). Like they have in the ZBC main forum (not the top shelf) It really helps me see what people are uploading quickly and without having to trawl through threads of "Wow, awesome" to find the art. Just a thought.
You're blaming people for trying to get exposure. I assure you if I lost my job tomorrow my work would be on literally every forum I could think of. You can't argue with the fact that the more people who see your work the higher your chances are of making a connection.
100% agree and am aware. I'm not fond of people using communities solely as their vessel for exposure. That's really my issue here.
And one might argue that if your work is great enough, it'll find its way in front of the right eyes.
All I was asking for is better give-and-take from all artists. I enjoy reading about process as much as I enjoy sexing my eyeballs with images.
Jeremy, man, it's not common knowledge! Being a good artist means making a TON of very good design decisions. detail goes here, shapes go here, etc etc.
You produce badass work, and to think that because you don't rely on a lot of technical gimmicks you have less to offer is insane. If anything artists like you have a lot MORE to teach. I've never asked any questions about your posts, but if you were ever to put a thread in p&p that discussed how and why you made a new piece i would be very happy to see it.
I get more interest, questions, and better suggestions, in the WAYWO thread, than I do when I start a focused thread. My art is just art, there's no mystery to what I do, it's all plainly out there. I don't use crazy workflows, or one of a kind ZB brushes, or anything like that. So for me to try and explain what I do or how I achieved something, without someone asking a specific question, is pretty much a waste. It's all common knowledge.
That in itself is something I would have even found enlightening. Hell, I read that just now and enjoyed it
dude that is such an awesome page, never saw that thread.
ADAM, could we see some frontpage articles that highlight posts like lemonhead's here the near future? Or per's recent thread about displacement maps? We have a showcase of great art, but no roundup of great advice and discussion.
I have zero industry experience, almost never do 3d art lately, and can't commit to a regular schedule, so if you've got anybody else who'd be able to write them i think you could find a better choice than me. I know we have some awesome technical artists here who have a lot of all around knowledge.
But if you really like the idea and nobody else steps forward i'd be happy to write them, yeah.
I'm sort of curious when Polycount became a giant throbbing vagina.
So, people who drop in and just post inspirational art and just return to the shadows are getting called out but meanwhile pollution like "DERP HELP ME STAY MOTIVATED" type threads, "How do I delete my account / I won't get what I want." or high school kids talking about why they hate being asked to pay for a product. I've contributed enough, I think, to show my workflow and - yeah - if there was enough interest in something I do that I somehow haven't covered, I 'could' take a few minutes to write something up but, man, these days I just want to make my own stuff which is why I stick to WAYWO.
I don't feel that it's my responsibility to spoon feed information to an online community of people who have more or less just posted memes and bitched about shit that they don't understand. Again, I've provided more insight than most about my work - if people can't use Google, this ain't my problem.
In a way, I wish PC was more like CA. Maybe if there were less bullshit threads, heavier moderation and a more serious attitude about our craft it would be more encouraging to post techniques.
A forum is a place for discussion though. There are specific blogs and certain websites just for the purpose of posting art for itself.
If someone posts art they should be willing to discuss it(at least a small bit). Otherwise what is the point of even posting it in a forum.
To be honest I dont ask any questions because I think I'll look stupid and be told to google it, the wiki or get some tutorial, and we did have that thread where your supposed to learn yourself or something(that may not be the case though).
giant throbbing vagina lol
..since it became a blog, gav
Hazardous mimicked my immediate thought: so Kite is a lamer. Right.
Adam: Calling these ppl lamers is worse than what u'r accusing them of. Put a text somewhere that stresses the benefits of posting insight along art and let it be the end of it.
Things have change here over 10 years, PnP used to be a place for artists like myself to Pimp and preview up and coming player models for quake and unreal, So we could see what other artist where creating and get excited about the new up and coming Alien/homer model we could now frag our friends with in our favorite FPS.
times have changes, just get rid of PNP , replace it with Crits and Tips or something, Mercy killing Old polycount, but going forwards with a new clearer vision, student friendly, free art sharing, work flow explaining Polycount.
I am a loyal Polycounter Adam, I stay on polycount 24/7 I eat while I am on Polycount and I even have a special made chair so I can go to the bathroom while I am on Polycount. -
Calabi - Man, if you can't muster up enough courage to ask questions that's your problem. It's not my responsibility to provide you information that you don't even know you need.
shotty: Yes :P
Adam: I'm going to respond to you - I need more time to type up something with purpose and not just my usual shit cock posts.
I guess I can't disagree with most of the sentiments in this thread enough. Since when is it your responsibility to share your process? I am personally pretty happy to see some amazing art spattered in between the new comers art. If I have a question, I will ask. But I am damn sure not butt-hurt when someone snubs me.
Keep in mind I am the type of person who will gladly share any information about what I post unless contractually obligated to stfu. I just don't see where I signed up to be obligated to post extraneous information on an art board.
There is certainly no obligation, nor will I ever do anything to stop people from doing hit & run posts. I was simply asking for a more pro-active approach to sharing knowledge to which I made points about the benefits of doing so.
Adam: Calling these ppl lamers is worse than what u'r accusing them of. Put a text somewhere that stresses the benefits of posting insight along art and let it be the end of it.
Hey, I can see how that might be. I still stand by my sentiment that hit & run posts (content) are trumped by content & informative posts. This thread was to suggest more people do it Everyone is welcome to ignore the suggestion if they see fit! :poly124:
i would much rather people just pimp art than all the trolls on this forum who come and make 200 posts a day in GD and never post any art. imo they are more harmful for the communtiy than people posting you know art and stuff, on an art forum. this place has become a magnet for non contributing zeros, at least art is some form of a contribution.
i would much rather people just pimp art than all the trolls on this forum who come and make 200 posts a day in GD and never post any art. imo they are more harmful for the communtiy than people posting you know art and stuff, on an art forum. this place has become a magnet for non contributing zeros, at least art is some form of a contribution.
If you ignore GD, do you still feel this way? (What I mean is: Is this sort of behavior exclusive to GD?)
EDIT: And to repeat what I said a couple of times in this thread: BY all means, feel free to report bullshit posts, replies that are only images, and other lame non-contributing types of posts. We might not deal with it as you would prefer us to (delete) but we will deal with it to varying degrees.
Adam I agree with what you're saying, but you're talking about a gold standard. People who do what you're saying you'd like - that's a rarity, an awesomeness that just doesn't happen that often. For all sorts of reasons, I think.
Some people just don't feel like they're good enough to be explaining anything to anyone. Some people who're very talented and very experienced have been around the block enough to know that most people don't read two sentences much less a couple paragraphs, and just get disheartened by it. And really - how often does someone say something in P&P only to have someone ask a question answered by what they said a couple posts down? "Still got to work on the specular, haven't really gotten to that yet" - couple posts later, "Your specular really needs work, do this and this..." People can't be arsed to read anything these days it seems.
There's also the darker side of things. There could be some people thinking that if they help too much, well...it's a competitive industry. You would hope that no such mentalities existed in a place like this. But you know the thought has occurred to some people.
Additionally, if the work isn't stellar and the poster DOES take the time to explain things - thought process, include a backstory, whatever - they're often times met with "tl;dr - less words more art". It's pounded into people all over the place.
In short, I agree with what you're saying Adam. When I was younger I always told myself I'd grow to be one of of those artists I wished I knew. Someone who knew what he was doing who'd also take the time to explain his shit and share his knowledge. But the older I get and the more I do, I realize why those sorts of people are so rare and why it doesn't happen more frequently.
I think it would be great if we had more people interested in sharing not just their work - but what goes into it. At the same time, though, I'm not going to criticize people who just post their work and otherwise keep pretty quiet. It does still serve as inspiration and is better than posting cats in GD.
dude that is such an awesome page, never saw that thread.
ADAM, could we see some frontpage articles that highlight posts like lemonhead's here the near future? Or per's recent thread about displacement maps? We have a showcase of great art, but no roundup of great advice and discussion.
Send me that stuff in a PM! I love highlighting stuff like that on the main page. It also brings in a more people to the discussion.
We've done a fewpostslike thatin the past, and should probably tag them in a way so they are easy to sort but that's great front page stuff. I catch most of the big ones that pop up in tech talk where I spend most of my time, and personally I think that is where most of the workflow discussions should take place. P&P moves fast and its hard to know what useful nuggets are burred where so extra eyes are always appreciated, so send me a PM when you find something.
Getting back on topic...
I've documented a lot of processes, for myself, on polycount and for work (I'm about to do that again next week). I've gone into more detail than what people ask and its draining, very draining and doesn't always pay off or come across in a helpful way due to the skill level of people reading/viewing it is so varied. It isn't easy and its not obvious that it needs to be done, which is probably the point of this thread?
I understand why people carpet bomb. Especially given that they may be coming from a community that doesn't collaborate and conspire as much as polycount does. I appreciate the in depth detailed write ups and love those people to death when they do it but I don't hold a grudge against people who post art and step back, its just a shame they couldn't share more, but oh well.
I think it can be a little immature as an artist to think you can't improve or shouldn't answer a question or two.
Part of having a successful thread or giving a good talk, or releasing a good tutorial, is sticking around afterward to answer questions. If you can't that's cool, just know everyone appreciates it a lot more when you can.
Calabi - Man, if you can't muster up enough courage to ask questions that's your problem. It's not my responsibility to provide you information that you don't even know you need.
shotty: Yes :P
Adam: I'm going to respond to you - I need more time to type up something with purpose and not just my usual shit cock posts.
Exactly, I know its my problem, I was just trying to point out why some people maybe dont ask questions. I wasnt saying its your responsibility.
Maybe I will start posting asking questions when I figure out what I need to know.
I'm at an odd point on this thread, mainly because of my focus being fx. When I posted up my reel after being let go from Cryptic, I had a few people ask for tut's. I'd love to do them, but the fx system I know (and care to work with) I no longer have access to. Now, that being said, my slow crawl back into the game industry may give me a new method to output work (through unity), which could lead to tut's. I've had a few people chat with me in the polycount IRC, and I think I've been able to give them some valuable input on their work, but only because it's a realtime discussion.
To be honest, though, I haven't posted work up on this forum in quite a few years, and jumping briefly to Adam's other constant rant (anti-GD in its current form), I've found that's been my best way to keep social with this community outside of the IRC. I always found tut's to be useful, but just seeing art dumps are always nice as pieces of inspiration... and if I want to know how something was done and it wasn't initially shared, I'll ask. That's all it takes.
This would be fairly easy to start, if the leaders and community members who post badass art put a little extra words in their posts, and set an example. It doesn't have to be what seems to be the standard "DO THIS OR REPORT THEM" mentality of a few recent threads, its awesome when people include it in their threads, but otherwise its still awesome to see people's art.
not everyone will agree to do it, with the art industry being a competitive place, some may not be past the "my ideas are my value" mindset and just choose not to.
There is nothing wrong with posting the same post in multiple forums, I love polycount, but fuck off if I'd be judged for copying and pasting my own writing. its my time spent making posts, will do as i damn well please with it I can see that the attention grabbing essence of it may be bothersome; but as people reading the threads we have no idea what the intentions of the original poster were. That person may not have been wanting to "inflate their ego," or "show off," but wanted to show off the public something they were proud of. Don't think its really worth getting frustrated about - someone's time and self promotion is their business.
The core of the rant is good tho. Would be great to see more wip shots (OUTSIDE OF WYAWO) of pieces. *shrug*
Adam, after you posted your 500 word essays on what you were planning to do with an environment (before posting any art mind you), people followed suit. I remember seeing at least a dozen threads of people doing the exact same thing. With Jordan and Vahl releasing their UDK environments, I hope more folks follow that idea. I'd love to see folks release UDK/Cry2/maxfiles/etc source of their models. I never would have learned the shit I had 10-12 years ago if it wasn't for people releasing SDKs.
we can come up with ways to shape the community in discussions, but we all need to act on it! If that means prodding some individuals more, ok, sometimes people need reminded.
I think it's a great idea, it always makes me smile when I open up a thread of awesome art, then scroll down and see a breakdown of how it was done. Doesn't need to be a 50-step tutorial, or a three week intensive workshop, just a few progress shots is enough for me!
Although I do see why people don't do it. Usually if I've looked at a project for the last 3 months non-stop, the last thing I want to do is go back and document how it was all done. I usually take screenshots as I go along so I can use them later to explain my workflow if ever necessary.
I remember there was once this guy who made some forest environment, something about a hidden base for an evil genius. I remember asking him if he could explain his tree workflow a little and show some texture flats. Wish that guy had seen this thread.
Replies
"I don't feel that it's my responsibility to spoon feed information to an online community of people who have more or less just posted memes and bitched about shit that they don't understand. Again, I've provided more insight than most about my work - if people can't use Google, this ain't my problem."
With this quote, you are then, the problem to which I brought up. What a terrible attitude to have. If you're in it for the art, then ignore GD and get straight to P&P. 90% of the time I am here, I am not in GD looking at Stan Marsh with jizz all over him.
It's not to ask someone "to spoon" feed information but to rather share your techniques with the ONLY audience that will appreciate the effort.
+1
Log in to Polycount. Post art. Leave. Answer 1 or 2 questions. Move on to Gameartisans.org. Do the same. Then to mapcore. Do the same. Then to game-artist.net. Do the same. Then CGTalk. Do the same.
Pretty lame, IMO. (And I use to do this myself years ago.)
We have a TON of hacks with no art fundamentals who seem to have no interest in learning shit about anatomy or design or color. There are definitely some amazing artists who focus almost entirely on 3d and i've never seen much 2d from -- you're one of them, adam! -- but by and large if you can't make a good painting you probably can't make a good model either. Real art fundamentals cross over a lot. You can practice them with oils or photoshop or zbrush or whatever, but if you can't design a good character and communicate who and what he is you can't make art that anybody is going to care about.
Pixelmasher up here comments about the tremendous lack of mid-skill information in the 3d world, and it definitely exists, but it's mainly because all of those mid level skills are things like color theory and anatomy and rendering materials and all these other fundamental skills that are firmly covered in traditional art education.
'nuff said.
TF2 "assholes": Report them. Seriously, if you see this sort of attitude report it. Otherwise it just sits there and festers.
I've never asked, and should have: Do you consider it valid to report people for generally vapid/meaningless posts like image macros? I don't know where the line is drawn on issues of personal taste that you guys may be way too busy to sift through and judge. I love this site in its current form and don't want to waste your time just because i find a kanye west image annoying.
Edit: Also, i should have noted in my earlier posts there ARE artists here, like neox and eq and per and pior and renderhjs who post a lot of INCREDIBLY insightful, well thought out discussion about their work. That kind of stuff is the main reason i come to polycount aside from just chilling in the community and killing time. Those guys are the best!
What is that supposed to be?
Please do report it, yes. We might not remove it, but its nice for us to be made aware of people taking issues with things.
Not my words, ask the original person
slightly older posters whining about slightly new posters
I love seeing people sharing knowledge. Lemonheads sketchbook springs to mind. He did a few massive art dumps recently but then BAM! Tons of awesome info on his work process, etc.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61393&page=3
Myself. I haven't updated my sketchbook in over a year I think, or created a WIP thread for a while now. I generally used to share a brief workflow of the process and explain things a bit with any image I uploaded. But these days I'm guilty of only posting in WAYWO and with very few words with it. Actually, I hardly visit the sketchbook forum now, I only look at threads I've commented on in the past.
Also, after I post the image here, it goes on my Blog, then on Deviant, sometimes ZBC, which feels like it take half an hour (excuse exaggeration). I usually share my work at the very end of the day as well. So I just want to drop it and go to bed (or play Minecraft). I always answer any questions people have on the workflow and I generally prefer to give feedback on work rather than "wow, Awesome".
I'm not sure I'll change though and start explaining things more. I'll try but I feel that the time spent explaining is better put to use actually doing the art.
Anyhoo, im not sure what my point is. I don't have a problem with PC as it is atm.
Oh, but I definately think PC could benefit from an thumbnail banner for all images uploaded into P&P and sketchbook (not GD). Like they have in the ZBC main forum (not the top shelf) It really helps me see what people are uploading quickly and without having to trawl through threads of "Wow, awesome" to find the art. Just a thought.
100% agree and am aware. I'm not fond of people using communities solely as their vessel for exposure. That's really my issue here.
And one might argue that if your work is great enough, it'll find its way in front of the right eyes.
All I was asking for is better give-and-take from all artists. I enjoy reading about process as much as I enjoy sexing my eyeballs with images.
You produce badass work, and to think that because you don't rely on a lot of technical gimmicks you have less to offer is insane. If anything artists like you have a lot MORE to teach. I've never asked any questions about your posts, but if you were ever to put a thread in p&p that discussed how and why you made a new piece i would be very happy to see it.
That in itself is something I would have even found enlightening. Hell, I read that just now and enjoyed it
postcounters, not polycounters. people who joined during the tf2 comp but only post shit in GD.
dude that is such an awesome page, never saw that thread.
ADAM, could we see some frontpage articles that highlight posts like lemonhead's here the near future? Or per's recent thread about displacement maps? We have a showcase of great art, but no roundup of great advice and discussion.
But if you really like the idea and nobody else steps forward i'd be happy to write them, yeah.
(But really do love the idea.)
A forum is a place for discussion though. There are specific blogs and certain websites just for the purpose of posting art for itself.
If someone posts art they should be willing to discuss it(at least a small bit). Otherwise what is the point of even posting it in a forum.
To be honest I dont ask any questions because I think I'll look stupid and be told to google it, the wiki or get some tutorial, and we did have that thread where your supposed to learn yourself or something(that may not be the case though).
..since it became a blog, gav
Hazardous mimicked my immediate thought: so Kite is a lamer. Right.
Adam: Calling these ppl lamers is worse than what u'r accusing them of. Put a text somewhere that stresses the benefits of posting insight along art and let it be the end of it.
Wow, never saw this before. We do weekely Art dumps right? Can we attach weekely "thread" dumps along with that?
Things have change here over 10 years, PnP used to be a place for artists like myself to Pimp and preview up and coming player models for quake and unreal, So we could see what other artist where creating and get excited about the new up and coming Alien/homer model we could now frag our friends with in our favorite FPS.
times have changes, just get rid of PNP , replace it with Crits and Tips or something, Mercy killing Old polycount, but going forwards with a new clearer vision, student friendly, free art sharing, work flow explaining Polycount.
shotty: Yes :P
Adam: I'm going to respond to you - I need more time to type up something with purpose and not just my usual shit cock posts.
Keep in mind I am the type of person who will gladly share any information about what I post unless contractually obligated to stfu. I just don't see where I signed up to be obligated to post extraneous information on an art board.
/2 cents
I like the idea of either renaming it, or adding a new tutorial/workflow/help forum.
Hey, I can see how that might be. I still stand by my sentiment that hit & run posts (content) are trumped by content & informative posts. This thread was to suggest more people do it
as the topic says, it is a rant
being proactive is good, but no one is obligated to document their work flow for various reasons.
INSTEAD, when you see a hit and run thread just get the guts to ask the art questions if you have any.
If you ignore GD, do you still feel this way? (What I mean is: Is this sort of behavior exclusive to GD?)
EDIT: And to repeat what I said a couple of times in this thread: BY all means, feel free to report bullshit posts, replies that are only images, and other lame non-contributing types of posts. We might not deal with it as you would prefer us to (delete) but we will deal with it to varying degrees.
Some people just don't feel like they're good enough to be explaining anything to anyone. Some people who're very talented and very experienced have been around the block enough to know that most people don't read two sentences much less a couple paragraphs, and just get disheartened by it. And really - how often does someone say something in P&P only to have someone ask a question answered by what they said a couple posts down? "Still got to work on the specular, haven't really gotten to that yet" - couple posts later, "Your specular really needs work, do this and this..." People can't be arsed to read anything these days it seems.
There's also the darker side of things. There could be some people thinking that if they help too much, well...it's a competitive industry. You would hope that no such mentalities existed in a place like this. But you know the thought has occurred to some people.
Additionally, if the work isn't stellar and the poster DOES take the time to explain things - thought process, include a backstory, whatever - they're often times met with "tl;dr - less words more art". It's pounded into people all over the place.
In short, I agree with what you're saying Adam. When I was younger I always told myself I'd grow to be one of of those artists I wished I knew. Someone who knew what he was doing who'd also take the time to explain his shit and share his knowledge. But the older I get and the more I do, I realize why those sorts of people are so rare and why it doesn't happen more frequently.
I think it would be great if we had more people interested in sharing not just their work - but what goes into it. At the same time, though, I'm not going to criticize people who just post their work and otherwise keep pretty quiet. It does still serve as inspiration and is better than posting cats in GD.
We've done a few posts like that in the past, and should probably tag them in a way so they are easy to sort but that's great front page stuff. I catch most of the big ones that pop up in tech talk where I spend most of my time, and personally I think that is where most of the workflow discussions should take place. P&P moves fast and its hard to know what useful nuggets are burred where so extra eyes are always appreciated, so send me a PM when you find something.
Getting back on topic...
I've documented a lot of processes, for myself, on polycount and for work (I'm about to do that again next week). I've gone into more detail than what people ask and its draining, very draining and doesn't always pay off or come across in a helpful way due to the skill level of people reading/viewing it is so varied. It isn't easy and its not obvious that it needs to be done, which is probably the point of this thread?
I understand why people carpet bomb. Especially given that they may be coming from a community that doesn't collaborate and conspire as much as polycount does. I appreciate the in depth detailed write ups and love those people to death when they do it but I don't hold a grudge against people who post art and step back, its just a shame they couldn't share more, but oh well.
I think it can be a little immature as an artist to think you can't improve or shouldn't answer a question or two.
Part of having a successful thread or giving a good talk, or releasing a good tutorial, is sticking around afterward to answer questions. If you can't that's cool, just know everyone appreciates it a lot more when you can.
You're now on our watch list
If they offer more than just the art, then bonus! But I don't think they owe us anything.
Truth is, I find I learned a shitload from organized contests than simple art pieces. People are much more responsive and helpful.
Oh... And NOW I get your point
Exactly, I know its my problem, I was just trying to point out why some people maybe dont ask questions. I wasnt saying its your responsibility.
Maybe I will start posting asking questions when I figure out what I need to know.
To be honest, though, I haven't posted work up on this forum in quite a few years, and jumping briefly to Adam's other constant rant (anti-GD in its current form), I've found that's been my best way to keep social with this community outside of the IRC. I always found tut's to be useful, but just seeing art dumps are always nice as pieces of inspiration... and if I want to know how something was done and it wasn't initially shared, I'll ask. That's all it takes.
not everyone will agree to do it, with the art industry being a competitive place, some may not be past the "my ideas are my value" mindset and just choose not to.
There is nothing wrong with posting the same post in multiple forums, I love polycount, but fuck off if I'd be judged for copying and pasting my own writing. its my time spent making posts, will do as i damn well please with it
The core of the rant is good tho. Would be great to see more wip shots (OUTSIDE OF WYAWO) of pieces. *shrug*
Adam, after you posted your 500 word essays on what you were planning to do with an environment (before posting any art mind you), people followed suit. I remember seeing at least a dozen threads of people doing the exact same thing. With Jordan and Vahl releasing their UDK environments, I hope more folks follow that idea. I'd love to see folks release UDK/Cry2/maxfiles/etc source of their models. I never would have learned the shit I had 10-12 years ago if it wasn't for people releasing SDKs.
we can come up with ways to shape the community in discussions, but we all need to act on it! If that means prodding some individuals more, ok, sometimes people need reminded.
Although I do see why people don't do it. Usually if I've looked at a project for the last 3 months non-stop, the last thing I want to do is go back and document how it was all done. I usually take screenshots as I go along so I can use them later to explain my workflow if ever necessary.