Respectfully Adam, I think you're putting the onus on the wrong members of the community. Rather than chastising artists for not making it their modus operandi to spill the beans on their workflow without provocation, why not encourage everyone else (especially lurkers) to stop being so shy and start asking questions. I think you'll find that most people, when asked a direct and intelligent question, will be more than happy to reply in kind. Beyond that, there are a educational DVDs on every subject under the Sun to help you connect the workflow dots. Being able to look at a piece and visually deconstruct it, at least in broad strokes, is something that comes with years of first hand practice at a craft. I can't give that to anyone. And, frankly, I think it's a little presumptuous to think that anyone would be interested in how I work.
I agree with this, and sometimes you don't know what you're doing is interesting unless someone asks a question about it.
I can see your point. Some of my favorite threads here are ones where people explain bits of their workflow, what theyve learned...etc.. Really...just seeing progression from something early into something badass is great. I prefer that over somebody dumping a massively awesome finished scene. Its also nice to think that your critiques could benefit that person.
You definitely got a bug in my ear, and I'll keep this in mind with my next thread. I may not be "one of the greats" but you never know..you might just know something that other people dont.
Also, about people dumping work for exposure. It may just be me...but I forget about their posts...its the people that are active in the community and keep posting, progressing, and giving insight to their workflow that I remember. I'm sure I'm not the only person who sees it that way.
Good post..I hope that people take this into consideration.
Edit: Also yea, people need to stop being scared to ask questions.
Have a weekly/fournightly CC day? Or some sort of technique show off day, whoever shows the most interesting, ergonomic, well presented idea gets a badge of some kind. Basically just a day that promotes goodwill and and shizload of workflow snippets. It can be lighting,render set ups, materials, poly flow, texturing. There's so many different areas to show how you did something it would be running a hell of a long time. And its not like it has to be super awesome omg shit, it can be simple stuff people miss, little know functions and there uses.
It'd also double for more Wiki info. Have a new section that covers each of the broad areas said above three birdies with one stone?
I personally thinks that finished piece of awesome arts ( which i have gathered on my ref folder )benefits me much more than just a workflow/breakdown/any video tutorial i've watched.
Another thing to remember is that documenting your process and what your doing is and can be very time consuming. Also not everyone enjoys doing so. Some people just like to make art and show it, thats what makes them happy and there shouldn't be any reason too look down on them. But it is also always nice when you see some fantastic are and are like OMG how did they achieve these amazing results and they share with you how they did it.
I think if you really want to know the process of how the artist did something, simply just ask in the thread. More often then not I have seen most of these artists answer questions when asked. Its not there job to document things out for people who choose not to ask. If your a "lurker" and want to know more, then you should ask or be content with not knowing. It is your problem you dont ask these questions, not the artist for not spoon feeding the masses.
I personally love sharing anything I can but if I post something and no one asks questions and such about it, I'm not going to go out of my way to write up about it.
That's one benefit I think that competitions have. Smaller ones especially. Look at the great art that the Domwars have brought up in the past. The Brawl competition. The various minis on GA. Conceptart has those Creature of the Week ones, where it resets once a week.
Something to keep in mind is some stuff that has probably been posted earlier but it's worth repeating:
Be specific
Asking questions like "what is your workflow?" is a lot of work to explain in some cases especially if someone has put a lot of work into a piece. It is always much better to ask about a specific part of a piece of work. It's much less work to explain and more likely to get a response.
workflow doesn't always matter
I am constantly confused about people asking about workflow. Maybe, it's because I've just been doing this a long time, but to me the order in which you do many things doesn't really matter. Many artists do things in different ways. Workflow isn't going to fix problems with skill or observation. And in a professional environment you are often asked to go back and do many revisions which could destroy any workflow you may be used to.
Respectfully Adam, I think you're putting the onus on the wrong members of the community. Rather than chastising artists for not making it their modus operandi to spill the beans on their workflow without provocation, why not encourage everyone else (especially lurkers) to stop being so shy and start asking questions. I think you'll find that most people, when asked a direct and intelligent question, will be more than happy to reply in kind. Beyond that, there are a educational DVDs on every subject under the Sun to help you connect the workflow dots. Being able to look at a piece and visually deconstruct it, at least in broad strokes, is something that comes with years of first hand practice at a craft. I can't give that to anyone. And, frankly, I believe it would be presumptuous (of me) to think that anyone would be interested in how I work.
EDIT: How about this: For the Monday Morning Recap (which I love and miss when it doesn't happen), PM the artists beforehand that you'd like to feature their work and to please go back to their first post in the thread and include some more information IF they have time and are comfortable sharing. Perhaps provide some suggestions on the sort of information that you feel the community would be interested in. Now, suddenly, folks have more impetus to take the time to do what you're requesting. I know more eyeballs will be on my work, and that the information I'm taking the time to write won't disappear into oblivion as quickly.
Great post here fella. And I definitely want to encourage people to speak up. If anyone from 10 years ago is still around that helped me get to where I am, they can be my proof that I asked a ton of questions about their processes.
we can come up with ways to shape the community in discussions, but we all need to act on it! If that means prodding some individuals more, ok, sometimes people need reminded.
This has been my MO for a while now: Always ask a question or two in the same reply I give praise. It's not forceful, mind you, I generally want to break things down and learn.
Very try, not always. However, "can you break down your workflow" is a great way to see where your own style of working could interject in to another way of working. Perhaps someone builds things more efficiently than you do? And because you asked, or because they explained it, you can now tweak your own processes with what you've learned.
So, while the high-level 'work flow' question might not matter, its a great starting point for figuring out specific updates or tweaks you could make to your own process.
Not to mention its a great place for new artists to get a grasp on where they should begin.
Adam could you go over your process of creating this amazing thread topic? Where did you start? Was it like just you were sitting on the toilet shitting and said "BAM! I need to make a thread about how people post amazing art and then disappear into the night like they knocked up someones teenage daughter and were never heard or seen again." I am intrigued.
Heh, I felt like this topic was adressed at me a bit, because I really don't comment often on other people's WIP threads, or post thaaat much "how I did it" info along my work (i just don't post much work of mine). But then I realized I just spent a week typing documentation for others to use, in between recording my second educational DVD lol
Thing is, after spending soo much time typing help and explanation (I've been writing XoliulShader 2 Help files for 4 days non stop), it's obvious to me that some people just don't want to spend all that extra effort explaining. It really is a bunch of extra effort, and you have to WANT to explain and help. Some people just do art because it's fun, praise is a nice extra gratification on top of that. Some people just work that way, I guess you can be a bit upset about that but hey...
And regarding the not replying to other's wip threads, It makes me think of that "Too much help shunts your growth"; Sometimes I open a topic and just don't feel like typing the same feedback I could give to so many others. Just because I learned it myself, without having it handed to me.
Adam - I think what I was going to say has mostly been clarified in the last few pages and probably isn't worth reiterating. But - just to clear up my poor attitude - it's not that I'm unwilling to share secrets and what not, I've never turned people away if they asked me a question and, I think, have contributed tons to the community in the form of tutorials, articles and the like.
I tend to stick to WAYWO or sketchbook threads just because I want to drop down work, still be 'in the scene' and just leave it at that. If someone wants to know something specific, ask and you'll get an answer. That being said, I 'could' pop in to people's threads more and give them some feedback - certainly something I don't do as much as I used to.
I think a lot of good information has come out into the community organically, like a threeway with your wife's best friend. Looking at Ror's art dump as a prime example which has been a huge benefit to this forum and every level of member. This all came after the fact when probed with questions about his work.
As for hating on the feelings threads, I dunno, I've explained myself before and I guess it's just something that we'll disagree on. I think that there is a connection between polluted 'general discussion' and contributing members. I think that since the TF2 thing (which is a great idea, I'm not against it) and splitting from DW to start our own thing (which, clearly, I supported) has brought in a lot of random members looking to take more than they give and, I feel, start threads asking questions with no clear answer and complain / lend insight to an industry they're not even part of. I tend to use GD to read up on what my peers think about games and engines - if it were nuked from orbit or if i had a way to hide the entire forum, I'd be fine with it. There just seems to be a huge wave of useless bullshit on here lately, I guess it just comes with growth.
Also, for the specific subjects that I'm talking about they generally HAVE been discussed before and could easily have been found using our Search feature. If a new artist comes in and, somehow, immediately has this problem even though there is a nearly infinite pool of inspiration on the VERY internet he is using, he should at least have the common courtesy to use our search feature and contribute to the lame ass thread that had already been created.
(Not to make the definition for someone who said it, but i think TF2 Asshole could be considered someone who just joined for that competition / chance at big winnings and has given nothing back.)
In my ideal world, though, it would be 'serious business.' I don't see why it shouldn't be, there are so many different venues for 'other' things. I guess that limits the possible user base - but wouldn't it be a more refined one? I feel as though PC used to be more about the work with a little bit of chatter and dick jokes - which caught on with the kiddies - and now it's more 'i can post whatever the fuck i want' with next to no contribution art wise.
I guess to quote your own rules:
"More art, less words" is a good mantra to go by when considering yourself a contributing member of the Polycount community.
I think a huge thing is just speaking up and asking questions. PC is nowhere near as cruel as it used to be and it should be the responsibility of the student to ask the master, not the responsibility of the master to just spit out any information he can and hope some student picks it up. Like you, I learned by asking people for information. Obviously, tactfully with some respect - no one likes being spammed. But I definitely won't deny that if it wasn't for Spark, Kite, Spacemonkey, etc. I wouldn't be where I am - but - I never would have gained some of their knowledge had I not of asked.
I'm kinda splitted on this subject. I love to see some making of tutorials on some high quality pieces, however as Kevin Johnstone pointed out the thread he wrote on how too much help will stunt your growth, I think part of every 3d artists arsenal should be the abillity to deconstruct other peoples work and incorporate into their own workflow without following a step-by-step tutorial on how HE did.. Usually tutorials(especially 2d and 3d tutorials) are arranged into steps without ever telling WHY but only HOW(Why is it necessary to have good topology, why do I place more loops around the joints and so on).
The way I usually experience other peoples work are by looking at the final picture, and maybe some WIP, and first of all see the final result, but also deconstruct and brake it down into its essence, from everything to the way the artist lighted the result to how to topology looks. I usually don't need more then a wireframe and a final picture do that. So while I think it's cool and all that people take their time to write a lenghty post on how they did this thing, I do believe that having everything lined up for you will not help you in the long run if you're not able to solve problems and deconstruct others people work your self.
I think the other flipside of the coin is people actively encouraging people posting for ego stroking/ass pats. people who just post jizz images or "OMFG SO AWESOME FAP FAP FAP" are not really contributing at all.
a single sentance reply is kinda useless and a lot of the time seems to be just there to up their post count, which is retarded either way. ok....you have 4k posts...3500 of which are cat images or "zomg coool narf". your post count doesn't = respect level. Thoughtful, insightful posts are what make me want to interact with industry pros.
OK now to the main point. yes there is a ton of FUCKING AWESOME WORK posted here on a daily basis. so next time you want to say "omg im jizzing my pants it so cool" why dont you go the lil extra few key strokes and explain what excites you so much about the piece and ask questions about it, if you really care about the art.
"wow that looks fucking amazing, nice job!"
or
"wow that looks fucking amazing, nice job! I really like how you got the various material definition on this model. the contrast between the concrete and metal looks really believable, how did you go about achieving that? I really like the lighting, would you mind posting a shot of the lighting setup"
literally 20 seconds of extra typing the thoughts going through my mind when I look at something and the information it could bring to the community/provide feedback/ technique overview to anyone on this forum for future reference.
Adam makes a great point about providing more info upfront, which is totally something I agree with. if people start asking more questions or even just explaining why they think the images being posted are so awesome, its only going to benefit the community as a whole.
If people posting here who are members of the community see the hunger for information instead of just ass patters who hop in a thread for 10 seconds to drop a "congrats" or "looks good" then I am sure that will encourage people to post more breakdowns.
Stop being a bunch of semi retarded clapping seals who use retarded memes to express their thoughts rather than articulating themselves like an actual human being.
Personally (from my short experience here at PC), i think there are tons of helpful people on the boards, however, the more the merrier! I visit WAYWO a fair bit, but mainly just to see what people are upto, then if im looking for a more in-depth read or following some progress, theres often a seperate thread for it, and i can just ask questions directly if something pops up. The "Mobile/Web" thread however, oozes with helpful people, It doesn't take much searching to find somebody there who's gone out of their way to show different ways to do something, UV optimizations or painting tips. Snader is a great example of this, he recently showed like 20 different ways to make a shield shape to somebody along with critiquing their UV map and textures, the guy was very thankful. Things like this often get hidden away in the forum that newer members would not find, so having info reiterated every now and then is great, unless its already on the wiki ofc.
I did that thing where I posted here and on game-artist.net
I was asking for help as I was stuck and didn't know how to continue. I found i got no help
However there are some good people here but also some ass licking freelancers
looking in on PC it took me a few years before I decided to register and even start posting. it had an elitist feeling at times, but that's nothing to CGtalk. all places have it, I guess. The type of people who bad stab just to get over the others?
i tend to fall in and out of love with PC, the thing that gets to me is. being somebody whos not well known here, certain people wont give you the time of day. where as they will be all over the threads from more 'popular' posters. bumming them HARD.
Snader is a great example of this, he recently showed like 20 different ways to make a shield shape to somebody along with critiquing their UV map and textures, the guy was very thankful. Things like this often get hidden away in the forum that newer members would not find, so having info reiterated every now and then is great, unless its already on the wiki ofc.
After have done pretty much exactly what you have described (art dump after a long time lurking/not describing much) I'm feeling a little sad :C
I'm definitely guilty of only posting my own work, and not contributing to others with thoughtful feedback. I'd also be lying if I didnt say I get a bit of a buzz when I get positive reply's.
I feel similar to Hazardous, in that, I always feel like I should be spending my free time making things, rather than posting on forums. Its rather selfish I know.
I agree 100% with dustinbrown's comment. I tend to keep my post's on the short side, as I feel like I'm "preaching" when I break things down, and explain every little step. On the flip side, if someone shows genuine interest in how I got from point A to point B, I'd be more than happy to explain workflows/wire/etc...
I really like your post gav and by and large dont like the idea of a pampered breed of lazy people. What you say in the last paragraph kinda hits the nail on the head -
"it should be the responsibility of the student to ask the master, not the responsibility of the master to just spit out any information he can and hope some student picks it up"
I feel like people who want to learn should already be breaking down images they like and figuring this out, consider the workflow stuff a bonus not a given.
@awesome people spamming art (haz/gav/vivin/whoever)
your existence is all that some people need to achieve though - sounds a bit gay, but the fact that people pump out hot shit should make those with ambition strive for that level. I dont look at Sargents work and think wow, wish he was still alive to crit my sketchbook.
I think this thread has defenitly gone south and pissed a ton of people off, who at one point in time may have been some of our best members. Polycount is a brotherhood not just a site, we wear green and black shirts to work and in public. Some of us even wear them to bed. I know that I am just a mere novice in the game industry and a newish member to the Polycount team and community. But I use to lurk and enjoy how this site was run by pros for pros and that if a student or new person posted some work he or she was put through the gauntlet of (do you have the skin for this biz test). Frankly because they would get their art ripped apart by the pros for good reason. If they stuck around then shit they deserved to be here and eventually I think they would become a great artist with proper insight.
In this brotherhood we are thicked skin and have that rep of being pretty good about posting bad ass art and also giving some kick ass feedback and tuts from time to time. They come randomly and when you least expect it to happen. Then boom a new tut or walk trough appears or someone posts an awesome model/ environment that makes you want to do crazy art again. The reason that system works is because we aren't saturated with false info. We already have an issue in this industry with wrong the info or tips and tricks floating around on things. The last thing we need to do is have more of it. I think those random tut/art dumps are more valuable because generally those are the ones with the true knowledge and take home value then the mass produced dvd's or books.
If there is something to rant about it should be the lack of support or moderation on the forums, Most of the current moderators are way to busy to actually even lurk the forums from time to time to much less moderate or regulate polycount law. It is time for a new batch of moderators to be selected ( and no I am not volenteering) . We have become a great resource and a one stop shop for game news and game development side of things but with that we have also become soft with lack of backbone. You are not worried about those lack of motivation posts or the other anoyying threads that apear in the general discusion area for the main reason that they are hits and traffic to this site.
We slowly are turning into a site that just allows anyone to post anything here. Whats next are we going to allow people to sell wow gold in the GD section? People have issues I get that and people need help to get through that I get that too. But this is not the place for that stuff we have all worked our asses off to get jobs and are working our asses off to keep them. Right now the job market is so shit that your think twice before even getting a friend hired because of how will that effect the companys budget and at the end of the project will that effect if you even have a job anymore due to over spending. So I do not blame anyone for keeping their shit to themselves and neither should you or anyone for that matter who said I hear what your saying man I was thinking about posting a rant just like this Adam.
I would not know what I would be doing now if it was not for half the pros in this community pushing me or just posting in others threads and me lurking over some new knowledge being dropped. Am I a pro now? No but everyday I wake up I live to get better and learn something new regardless of where the knowledge comes from or who I bother on Msn messenger for it. I will learn something new and use it one day. You shouldn’t feel the need to be catored to or waited on for the knowledge. Your technically will retain more with the amount of effort you took to dig for that info. If I put a tutorial out on the website with an easy button to get to it you wouldn’t remember it come a month later. But if you had to dig for it and work for that piece of knowledge your more likely to retain it into your memory banks and muscle memory.
Sorry for the wall of text and if its confusing to you im sorry too. I just feel we need to get back to making art and pushing each other to do more rather then pamper or become life coaches. If you disagree with me that’s fine we are human. We are not programed to run the same.
I've noticed this a bit lately too. I know I'm not an old school polycounter, but when I first came across the site, I was warned that it was known for it's harsh and honest critique, and I loved that. I feel that you learn from your mistakes, and how will you know you're making a mistake if you are not told? In the 3 years since then, I think PC has grown softer. I think a lot of it has to do with the newer generation of TF2 fans and younger kids who don't take 3D all that seriously scaring off the veterans.
Instead of threads being filled with honest critique and feedback, they're filled with "omg thats amazing!" or stupid memes, even if the art is mediocre at best. I have a feeling this drives off the veterans. I can't speak for them, of course, but I draw this from my own experiences with helping younger students at my school. It may sound like a shitty thing to say, but if I see someone failing at the most basic level, because they are just too lazy to research the most basic techniques, then I don't feel compelled to spend my time helping them. Also, I know that my fellow older students and I become annoyed rather easily with the groups of younger, obnoxious students. There are a few younger students, however, that obviously put forward the effort and have their heads on straight, and those students I will gladly help whenever possible.
I think this mentality applies to "Polycount University" as well. The veterans are put off by the majority of the new generation. But then there are a handful of newcomers who work their asses off and are proactive about their learning, and they generally receive good feedback and help. Maybe some harsher moderation, and a conscious attempt to bring back harsher critique, may help shrink the disconnect between old and new polycounters.
This was originally a one sentence response, but then I started ranting. Hopefully there's a point hidden in there somewhere.
PC is just a site. The site can't be cruel. It's the people on it. So it sounds to me like back in the day there were people on here that gave harsh crits. I'm guessing either those people are gone, or they're not as harsh anymore. So it changed.
If you want this site to be harsher, then all you gotta do is give out harsh crits and advice.
This is a good site and I always check it out to see some great artwork. While I don't mind passers-by, it would be nice if they stuck around to answer some questions.
The worst is when the author comes back a day later with a collective 'thanks guys'.
Adam, sorry, haven't read the rest of this thread after that. Anyway, I'm a guy who did just that - posted some art, with little to no explanation and than came back day after with "a collective 'thanks guys'".
WHAT whould you say, really? I'm not one of these top tier guys, who invents new stuff and do every possible awesome thing out there. In fact, most of my time, I'm just trying to 'get there', using some well known techniques and methods. Bragging about that, whould make me look ignorant perhaps?
I've got some 'cool stuff dude', which is flattering, but noone (well, except Maph, but he said that I already knew and admitted myself) offered any crits or asked any questions. What should I do? Come back day after, with - now let me tell you how I did all that stuff?
Adam: I haven't read the others opinions so this is a direct answer. No. I don't think you have a right to rant on this. You have a specific personality, you NEED to share, its part of your make up, it is not the same for many, indeed most artists.
We ought not to be making judgements on others way of interacting in a community. When we share our work, we don't owe our audience any more than the work, the audience is not entitled to anything other than the free inspiration they just received.
Many artists don't even share their work for free, where do we draw the line? There should not be a line is my feeling. I think I can say this to you because I have contributed more help than I have shared artwork ( probably, not exactly sure , but it feels like I've taken a lot of time).
I also have a natural inclination to help and share. I like words, I like the sense of selfworth I derive from helping others, it is easier to motivate myself toward a goal for someone else than it is for myself alone. This trait can be seen as a failing in my character though, its an obstacle to true artistic introspection, to losing ones self in the 'flow'.
Should I and others also make a judgement on my unwillingness to focus more internally and push myself forward toward more personal work? I'm not looking for an answer to this, I already have a number of answers, I'm trying to play devil's advocate and point out that your metric for worth is your own, it is not 'right', it is not 'wrong' it is just 'yours' and others should have the right to have their own without judgements being made upon the worth of their differing choices.
In short, if you make judgements about others, they will do the same about you and where does that get us? People share in different ways, accept it and move on
I try to post as much to other people as I do my own stuff, but I'm also guilty of the occasional one line post in P+P when I see something that I really like....I generally avoid thread posting in GD unless I have something constructive to say....to be honest I feel more a sense of polycount community when I'm not on polycount....G+ is a great example of this, I feel like the PC community spirit is stronger on there than here at the moment....odd huh?
With regard to asking questions I gave up on that a while ago as I never recieved answers to any of them....I guess that if someone wants to write about their process they will have already, and if they haven't then why ask if they didn't want to do it in the first place.
On the other hand I have recently gotten to the level where folks are asking me questions about stuff, and I will try my best to answer, although half the time the people that ask never bother to say thank you anyway...I think that if you are going to ask something then a quick thank you later in the thread should just be the done thing.
probably rambling here....been a bad day....have drunk many beers
I don't use crazy workflows, or one of a kind ZB brushes, or anything like that. So for me to try and explain what I do or how I achieved something, without someone asking a specific question, is pretty much a waste. It's all common knowledge.
I can tell you, every time I hyave thought "oh its common knowledge" I find a thread asking how to do what I thought was common. Just because it seems mundane, or essentially breaks down to "operate, rinse, repeat" at some level doesn't mean it is not interesting or novel or totally revolutionary for someone else.
Especially if you have years and years of working experience, something you learned as a kludge on version 2.63 beta of whatever program you're using can be just drowned out in the modern features and be totally overlooked by the newbs.
Or sometimes its as simple as what amounts to workflow crossing. Like one whiny post I ranted about 5 years back when I found out how nodes in maya's shader workflow can be used effectively for rigging. Had it not been for a polycounter sending me toward a good resource and me actually reading it, I'd have been rigging the same way I did in 1999, and producing crap results, constantly thinking the discipline was harder than it was, because I didn't even know of the right tools.
If anyone from 10 years ago is still around that helped me get to where I am, they can be my proof that I asked a ton of questions about their processes.
Yeah you were annoying. :P So yeah I didn't so much help you grow as enjoy your emo comics.
I think the random (albeit somewhat scarce) generosity of some of the professionals on here is awesome. I don't think they should feel pressured to provide content for people who are learning when there's already so much out there that they just need to look up and study (Polycount wiki is a good example that most people overlook or just don't know about).
There's so much stuff out there, all it takes is a little bit of effort to find. Whether it's on these forums, or others, in a magazine, in a tutorial, etc.
I actually like seeing paintovers and crits much more than full on tutorials, although those are also totally rad as long as they're done clearly.
What's the benefit to you as the author to take the time and write these things out?
I think a lot of people don't have time to detail process, it's always nice to read but usually there are only a handful of novel things in any one persons workflow, if any at all. It's always good manners to answer questions if you are asked them but a better use of your time is just to make more stuff if you are in that frame of mind. I've never had a problem with discreet artdumps, artists are selfish .
Rather than chastising artists for not making it their modus operandi to spill the beans on their workflow without provocation, why not encourage everyone else (especially lurkers) to stop being so shy and start asking questions.
I just feel we need to get back to making art and pushing each other to do more rather then pamper or become life coaches. If you disagree with me thats fine we are human.
Actually I'm pretty sure adam was largely encouraging this very thing. More focus on the art, through communication that a lot of times isn't present. I don't think anyone can deny, talking about your art and the reasons for it can only help strengthen the community.
That being said, posting awesome art and keeping to yourself doesn't hurt the community - and does help it, if to a potentially smaller extent, so there's no reason to get mad at such people.
I can understand why some people don't ask questions.I think people feel that there are so many talented people on here if they ask a stupid question they would just be bashed for not knowing something basic.
I have to say the biggest thing as a community I ever see as far as getting people to budge/ work together has been hard competition.
As pixelmasher said On the opposite side of the coin we see alot of artist who act like they dont know there bad ass, post a few beauty renders, and then every kid from hobbiest to AI post grad sit and jerk off to it.
and in the mean time people who actually know what there doing etc, and ask for a break down usually get there comments lost in the 20 pages of Ass grabbing.
But from things ive seen in the past the biggest thing that usually always made us push ourselves in the community and with each other were competitions.
Brawl was a great example, Jordan W mopped the floor with his amazing new DX11 tech...and then what does he do afterwards? He gives the scene out for people to look at and study?
Is he afraid that people are going to diss his work , steal his models or shaders? no he lets them go do there thing and hopefully take something to learn from it.
Look at unearthly challenge years ago when people were trying to figure out how to do hedges/topiary, We had Mark Dygert (vig) go out of his during a competition and give a break down of how he created it.
and there TONS and TONS more examples I can give. But I have to agree even I dont like to post newer stuff lately. Every time I do im just seeing alot of back patting and not enough "this would look better if"
and asside from the 1 or 2 senior members who are known for doing this kinda great feedback. I just feel its a bit sad alot of new rookies are joining and are to afraid to get there asses burnt / chewed out on and learn from it.
I mean here, great example
look at this POS
(memory lane for anyone?)
one of the first things I EVER did in 3D YEARS AND YEARS ago for a competition here on polycount! Yes it looking back now it sucked and wasnt all that great in comparison to others.
But it got members involved with my work and told me things to improve / direction to hit. I think as both a person and as a artist this solid push and people being involved is something I just dont see as much off anymore. Asside from a few old schoolers who I see still doing it I just wish the 2nd/3rd/4th generation of polycounters would have been a bit more active with this all is all :S
seriously we need to bring back competitions again! And then we can flush out alot of the bullshittery people easily with this!
Edit: Dear god that image burns my eyes, lol!
Also just for the sake if someone calls me on it, yes I like to troll every now and then to joke around, but for every troll I do I usually offer advice/feedback usually in PM's I get or on instant messengers outside of polycount as well.
I think we should stop discussing how to post/critique and talk about why the hell the Uno card is flipping me the bird.
Well.. I just want to add, that there is a lot of back patting, but you know sometimes it's really well deserved. I think sometimes also when crappy newbie artists are brave enough to post their work, they usually don't get swell enough critiques, I've noticed a lot of the time it's other newbies that critique their stuff. And that's fine and all but I feel like they may be focusing on the unimportant points or not being honest enough.
We are a community of teachers. Not ball strokers. . . but every now and then a ball needs to be stroked cause it's so magnificent.
and in the mean time people who actually know what there doing etc, and ask for a break down usually get there comments lost in the 20 pages of Ass grabbing.
I wonder if a +1 button would help reduce the clutter. If all you want to do is give an OMG/pants explosion then just +1. if you have something useful to add then post.
Nothing gold can stay as they say. It'd be nice if it was as simple as top artists documenting their art to bring this site to its old glory. Fact is the best are jaded and the newcomers have a larger mountain to climb than ever before. The answers are all out there and re-documenting them isn't the group discovery it used to be.
Mod scene is dead, all the latest techniques ain't that new, lets face it, this game art gig just ain't the childhood dream it used to be most the time.
Imma make a thread within the next month or so, workin on a small time indie game as the only artist. Wont be top end shit but i hope some people can take some inspiration from it. Making art for a small title is a whole diffent ball game with its own problems. Anyway i'll save that for later.
Still love this site, but any site connected to the game industry is going to go through some pains with the current state of the industry. Everyone's just goin' through the motions for their 9 to 5.
Really interesting read hearing different opinions from a lot prominent artists within the polycount community, and cool to see how views of this topic are so vastly different from one another.
I remember when Adam had posted the evil genius thread, and I absolutely loved how he had setup the thread to outline everything that he wanted to accomplish, and it gave a great insight into his workflow. But as many have stated, some artists either don't have the time to do it, or maybe feel like the work they post speaks for itself, which I find can be very true.
Although I haven't been "active" on polycount as of late (always come everyday to see what is going on) the work that has been posted on the WAYWO thread has been absolutely inspirational, but I've also been learning a fair bit from it as well.
I think artists need to strike a very fine balance between being "fed" information, and activly seeking information on their own, be it through quality tutorials, friends / teachers AS WELL as inspirational images.
I do find that if you spend the time to actually ANALYZE an image instead of just browsing over and being "wow'ed" by pretty pictures, you can learn so much in such a short amount of time.
Now granted, for me this usually means I see the end product, and first try and understand WHAT exactly that end product is (could be how the rock was sculpted, how the building was put together), than, go through my head and reverse engineer how that artist got to that point. THAT is where I have personally learned the most.
And the fact is, you WILL make mistakes and guess things wrong, but from those mistakes, you begin to learn how to change those steps into proper workflows.
Of course, this is just my personal opinion / way of trying things out.
I think my point is that those who do a great job of explaining their workflow (Thiago Klafke "Minotaur0" and Michael Vicente "Orb" being recent favourites) can be just as effective as those who post Art Dumps in the WAYWO thread, just as long as you (the viewer) make sure to take the time and really study what the artist has done.
This is just my 2 cents, but what a great read so far
i would much rather people just pimp art than all the trolls on this forum who come and make 200 posts a day in GD and never post any art. imo they are more harmful for the communtiy than people posting you know art and stuff, on an art forum. this place has become a magnet for non contributing zeros, at least art is some form of a contribution.
Argh I just wrote this huge awesome reply to this fantastic discussion and my brothers laptop decided to forget I was logged in. Awesome.
TL;DR: I am extremely lucky to be apart of a community of passionate artists who are willing to throw their 2 cents on the table and discuss such niche topics as community involvement. No matter where your opinions lay, this thread has been an awesome read and I thank everyone for participating (it sounds like I'm about to close this thread, I'm not).
Just to reiterate: We're not going to be forcing anything on people when it comes to how you showcase your artwork. Thats entirely up to you. I personally just feel everyone benefits a little more when explanation is included in your delivery.
Cheers guys and have a great weekend.
EDIT: And to riff off of Kev's reply: Hopefully I didn't put anyone down specifically about their character as an artist. I was out of line to call anyone or any way the use sites like polycount "lame". I'd like to chalk that one up to the amount of caffeine I was riding but it was just a poor choice of words. I simply think one way of showcasing artwork is better than another and wanted to see what others think. Please accept my apology if you were offended, it was unintentional - promise!
Great read so far and has made me look back on how I post. Pretty sure if it wasn't for the tech guys who posted and pushed me in the right direction, wouldn't be trying to code and make tools. Try to help where I can and tech section always keeps me inspired to keep learning and pushing.
Also wanted to add that I am glad I have had my models ripped apart, I have grown more as a artist in the past few months since I joined here than the entire time I have been in school. I would also love to document my workflow for other to read but quite honestly I don't think my skills are where they should be to be of any help to anyone. I do guess if i did that others could point out where I could make improvements in it.
Anywho this has been a great thread to read though.
Honestly I really loved the Evil Genius thread Adam, it was awesome and I do agree that it's always nice when people share their workflow, but most of the time when you get to a certain level the workflow becomes common knowledge.
It's also about posting at the right time, when you post that you're creating an environment but have nothing to show people lose interest. You have to have something to show but you don't want to be at the the end of the project either. It must look good as a WIP. Honest to god most of my WIPs are not pretty.
I'm also the kind of guy that give more comments/crits than I post artwork, then again I've been around a lot. 3 different companies in a little bit more than a year. Moving that much, being in crunch, personal artwork isn't the thing I'm thinking about when I get home, and when I do post artwork, most of the time I don't bother posting a big explanation of the workflow, because honestly, it's pretty straight forward. And for all the students/beginners, they can find a lot of awesome information in the wiki. (shout out to all the people helping create the wiki :thumbup:)
Most of the time you just have to create your own artwork to realize the pro/cons of the workflow of others. Sure I could share mine, but we all know that it's time-consuming. I do however love to share my workflow with people who asks about it, and I would rather do it in the thread than over PM.
It's a given that something posted to a web forum is open to questions and discussion. If a particular artist is not responsive to that there's no reason to sweat it. Personally I don't care if someone details how they make something. If I want details there is nothing stopping me from asking or from using the wealth of information on the web to find answers.
That said I don't think polycount is a place where people are snobs about process.
Haha, great rant Adam, can't help but feel a little guilty Don't know what to add to all the great responses, except I do feel that what someone said about asking questions is central - everybody LOVES to talk about their work when asked a specific, interested question, and on the other hand it IS a bit presumptious (not to mention time-consuming) to post lengthy explanations right off the bat without being asked. All in all though, this is a fantastic community where I think most people naturally migrate from the hit & run to sharing the brotherly love - and imo, that's just the way it should be.
Replies
I agree with this, and sometimes you don't know what you're doing is interesting unless someone asks a question about it.
You definitely got a bug in my ear, and I'll keep this in mind with my next thread. I may not be "one of the greats" but you never know..you might just know something that other people dont.
Also, about people dumping work for exposure. It may just be me...but I forget about their posts...its the people that are active in the community and keep posting, progressing, and giving insight to their workflow that I remember. I'm sure I'm not the only person who sees it that way.
Good post..I hope that people take this into consideration.
Edit: Also yea, people need to stop being scared to ask questions.
It'd also double for more Wiki info. Have a new section that covers each of the broad areas said above three birdies with one stone?
I think if you really want to know the process of how the artist did something, simply just ask in the thread. More often then not I have seen most of these artists answer questions when asked. Its not there job to document things out for people who choose not to ask. If your a "lurker" and want to know more, then you should ask or be content with not knowing. It is your problem you dont ask these questions, not the artist for not spoon feeding the masses.
I personally love sharing anything I can but if I post something and no one asks questions and such about it, I'm not going to go out of my way to write up about it.
Be specific
Asking questions like "what is your workflow?" is a lot of work to explain in some cases especially if someone has put a lot of work into a piece. It is always much better to ask about a specific part of a piece of work. It's much less work to explain and more likely to get a response.
workflow doesn't always matter
I am constantly confused about people asking about workflow. Maybe, it's because I've just been doing this a long time, but to me the order in which you do many things doesn't really matter. Many artists do things in different ways. Workflow isn't going to fix problems with skill or observation. And in a professional environment you are often asked to go back and do many revisions which could destroy any workflow you may be used to.
Great post here fella. And I definitely want to encourage people to speak up. If anyone from 10 years ago is still around that helped me get to where I am, they can be my proof that I asked a ton of questions about their processes.
This has been my MO for a while now: Always ask a question or two in the same reply I give praise. It's not forceful, mind you, I generally want to break things down and learn.
Very try, not always. However, "can you break down your workflow" is a great way to see where your own style of working could interject in to another way of working. Perhaps someone builds things more efficiently than you do? And because you asked, or because they explained it, you can now tweak your own processes with what you've learned.
So, while the high-level 'work flow' question might not matter, its a great starting point for figuring out specific updates or tweaks you could make to your own process.
Not to mention its a great place for new artists to get a grasp on where they should begin.
Please explain your methods if you have time.
-Love Jesse
Thing is, after spending soo much time typing help and explanation (I've been writing XoliulShader 2 Help files for 4 days non stop), it's obvious to me that some people just don't want to spend all that extra effort explaining. It really is a bunch of extra effort, and you have to WANT to explain and help. Some people just do art because it's fun, praise is a nice extra gratification on top of that. Some people just work that way, I guess you can be a bit upset about that but hey...
And regarding the not replying to other's wip threads, It makes me think of that "Too much help shunts your growth"; Sometimes I open a topic and just don't feel like typing the same feedback I could give to so many others. Just because I learned it myself, without having it handed to me.
I tend to stick to WAYWO or sketchbook threads just because I want to drop down work, still be 'in the scene' and just leave it at that. If someone wants to know something specific, ask and you'll get an answer. That being said, I 'could' pop in to people's threads more and give them some feedback - certainly something I don't do as much as I used to.
I think a lot of good information has come out into the community organically, like a threeway with your wife's best friend. Looking at Ror's art dump as a prime example which has been a huge benefit to this forum and every level of member. This all came after the fact when probed with questions about his work.
As for hating on the feelings threads, I dunno, I've explained myself before and I guess it's just something that we'll disagree on. I think that there is a connection between polluted 'general discussion' and contributing members. I think that since the TF2 thing (which is a great idea, I'm not against it) and splitting from DW to start our own thing (which, clearly, I supported) has brought in a lot of random members looking to take more than they give and, I feel, start threads asking questions with no clear answer and complain / lend insight to an industry they're not even part of. I tend to use GD to read up on what my peers think about games and engines - if it were nuked from orbit or if i had a way to hide the entire forum, I'd be fine with it. There just seems to be a huge wave of useless bullshit on here lately, I guess it just comes with growth.
Also, for the specific subjects that I'm talking about they generally HAVE been discussed before and could easily have been found using our Search feature. If a new artist comes in and, somehow, immediately has this problem even though there is a nearly infinite pool of inspiration on the VERY internet he is using, he should at least have the common courtesy to use our search feature and contribute to the lame ass thread that had already been created.
(Not to make the definition for someone who said it, but i think TF2 Asshole could be considered someone who just joined for that competition / chance at big winnings and has given nothing back.)
In my ideal world, though, it would be 'serious business.' I don't see why it shouldn't be, there are so many different venues for 'other' things. I guess that limits the possible user base - but wouldn't it be a more refined one? I feel as though PC used to be more about the work with a little bit of chatter and dick jokes - which caught on with the kiddies - and now it's more 'i can post whatever the fuck i want' with next to no contribution art wise.
I guess to quote your own rules:
I think a huge thing is just speaking up and asking questions. PC is nowhere near as cruel as it used to be and it should be the responsibility of the student to ask the master, not the responsibility of the master to just spit out any information he can and hope some student picks it up. Like you, I learned by asking people for information. Obviously, tactfully with some respect - no one likes being spammed. But I definitely won't deny that if it wasn't for Spark, Kite, Spacemonkey, etc. I wouldn't be where I am - but - I never would have gained some of their knowledge had I not of asked.
The way I usually experience other peoples work are by looking at the final picture, and maybe some WIP, and first of all see the final result, but also deconstruct and brake it down into its essence, from everything to the way the artist lighted the result to how to topology looks. I usually don't need more then a wireframe and a final picture do that. So while I think it's cool and all that people take their time to write a lenghty post on how they did this thing, I do believe that having everything lined up for you will not help you in the long run if you're not able to solve problems and deconstruct others people work your self.
my 2 cents.
I like to post jizz pics
I was asking for help as I was stuck and didn't know how to continue. I found i got no help
However there are some good people here but also some ass licking freelancers
looking in on PC it took me a few years before I decided to register and even start posting. it had an elitist feeling at times, but that's nothing to CGtalk. all places have it, I guess. The type of people who bad stab just to get over the others?
i tend to fall in and out of love with PC, the thing that gets to me is. being somebody whos not well known here, certain people wont give you the time of day. where as they will be all over the threads from more 'popular' posters. bumming them HARD.
its just a bit greasy
now where are the burgers?
That shield pic was really cool, i saved it!
I'm definitely guilty of only posting my own work, and not contributing to others with thoughtful feedback. I'd also be lying if I didnt say I get a bit of a buzz when I get positive reply's.
I feel similar to Hazardous, in that, I always feel like I should be spending my free time making things, rather than posting on forums. Its rather selfish I know.
I agree 100% with dustinbrown's comment. I tend to keep my post's on the short side, as I feel like I'm "preaching" when I break things down, and explain every little step. On the flip side, if someone shows genuine interest in how I got from point A to point B, I'd be more than happy to explain workflows/wire/etc...
"it should be the responsibility of the student to ask the master, not the responsibility of the master to just spit out any information he can and hope some student picks it up"
I feel like people who want to learn should already be breaking down images they like and figuring this out, consider the workflow stuff a bonus not a given.
@awesome people spamming art (haz/gav/vivin/whoever)
your existence is all that some people need to achieve though - sounds a bit gay, but the fact that people pump out hot shit should make those with ambition strive for that level. I dont look at Sargents work and think wow, wish he was still alive to crit my sketchbook.
In this brotherhood we are thicked skin and have that rep of being pretty good about posting bad ass art and also giving some kick ass feedback and tuts from time to time. They come randomly and when you least expect it to happen. Then boom a new tut or walk trough appears or someone posts an awesome model/ environment that makes you want to do crazy art again. The reason that system works is because we aren't saturated with false info. We already have an issue in this industry with wrong the info or tips and tricks floating around on things. The last thing we need to do is have more of it. I think those random tut/art dumps are more valuable because generally those are the ones with the true knowledge and take home value then the mass produced dvd's or books.
If there is something to rant about it should be the lack of support or moderation on the forums, Most of the current moderators are way to busy to actually even lurk the forums from time to time to much less moderate or regulate polycount law. It is time for a new batch of moderators to be selected ( and no I am not volenteering) . We have become a great resource and a one stop shop for game news and game development side of things but with that we have also become soft with lack of backbone. You are not worried about those lack of motivation posts or the other anoyying threads that apear in the general discusion area for the main reason that they are hits and traffic to this site.
We slowly are turning into a site that just allows anyone to post anything here. Whats next are we going to allow people to sell wow gold in the GD section? People have issues I get that and people need help to get through that I get that too. But this is not the place for that stuff we have all worked our asses off to get jobs and are working our asses off to keep them. Right now the job market is so shit that your think twice before even getting a friend hired because of how will that effect the companys budget and at the end of the project will that effect if you even have a job anymore due to over spending. So I do not blame anyone for keeping their shit to themselves and neither should you or anyone for that matter who said I hear what your saying man I was thinking about posting a rant just like this Adam.
I would not know what I would be doing now if it was not for half the pros in this community pushing me or just posting in others threads and me lurking over some new knowledge being dropped. Am I a pro now? No but everyday I wake up I live to get better and learn something new regardless of where the knowledge comes from or who I bother on Msn messenger for it. I will learn something new and use it one day. You shouldn’t feel the need to be catored to or waited on for the knowledge. Your technically will retain more with the amount of effort you took to dig for that info. If I put a tutorial out on the website with an easy button to get to it you wouldn’t remember it come a month later. But if you had to dig for it and work for that piece of knowledge your more likely to retain it into your memory banks and muscle memory.
Sorry for the wall of text and if its confusing to you im sorry too. I just feel we need to get back to making art and pushing each other to do more rather then pamper or become life coaches. If you disagree with me that’s fine we are human. We are not programed to run the same.
I've noticed this a bit lately too. I know I'm not an old school polycounter, but when I first came across the site, I was warned that it was known for it's harsh and honest critique, and I loved that. I feel that you learn from your mistakes, and how will you know you're making a mistake if you are not told? In the 3 years since then, I think PC has grown softer. I think a lot of it has to do with the newer generation of TF2 fans and younger kids who don't take 3D all that seriously scaring off the veterans.
Instead of threads being filled with honest critique and feedback, they're filled with "omg thats amazing!" or stupid memes, even if the art is mediocre at best. I have a feeling this drives off the veterans. I can't speak for them, of course, but I draw this from my own experiences with helping younger students at my school. It may sound like a shitty thing to say, but if I see someone failing at the most basic level, because they are just too lazy to research the most basic techniques, then I don't feel compelled to spend my time helping them. Also, I know that my fellow older students and I become annoyed rather easily with the groups of younger, obnoxious students. There are a few younger students, however, that obviously put forward the effort and have their heads on straight, and those students I will gladly help whenever possible.
I think this mentality applies to "Polycount University" as well. The veterans are put off by the majority of the new generation. But then there are a handful of newcomers who work their asses off and are proactive about their learning, and they generally receive good feedback and help. Maybe some harsher moderation, and a conscious attempt to bring back harsher critique, may help shrink the disconnect between old and new polycounters.
This was originally a one sentence response, but then I started ranting. Hopefully there's a point hidden in there somewhere.
PC is just a site. The site can't be cruel. It's the people on it. So it sounds to me like back in the day there were people on here that gave harsh crits. I'm guessing either those people are gone, or they're not as harsh anymore. So it changed.
If you want this site to be harsher, then all you gotta do is give out harsh crits and advice.
Adam, sorry, haven't read the rest of this thread after that. Anyway, I'm a guy who did just that - posted some art, with little to no explanation and than came back day after with "a collective 'thanks guys'".
WHAT whould you say, really? I'm not one of these top tier guys, who invents new stuff and do every possible awesome thing out there. In fact, most of my time, I'm just trying to 'get there', using some well known techniques and methods. Bragging about that, whould make me look ignorant perhaps?
I've got some 'cool stuff dude', which is flattering, but noone (well, except Maph, but he said that I already knew and admitted myself) offered any crits or asked any questions. What should I do? Come back day after, with - now let me tell you how I did all that stuff?
We ought not to be making judgements on others way of interacting in a community. When we share our work, we don't owe our audience any more than the work, the audience is not entitled to anything other than the free inspiration they just received.
Many artists don't even share their work for free, where do we draw the line? There should not be a line is my feeling. I think I can say this to you because I have contributed more help than I have shared artwork ( probably, not exactly sure , but it feels like I've taken a lot of time).
I also have a natural inclination to help and share. I like words, I like the sense of selfworth I derive from helping others, it is easier to motivate myself toward a goal for someone else than it is for myself alone. This trait can be seen as a failing in my character though, its an obstacle to true artistic introspection, to losing ones self in the 'flow'.
Should I and others also make a judgement on my unwillingness to focus more internally and push myself forward toward more personal work? I'm not looking for an answer to this, I already have a number of answers, I'm trying to play devil's advocate and point out that your metric for worth is your own, it is not 'right', it is not 'wrong' it is just 'yours' and others should have the right to have their own without judgements being made upon the worth of their differing choices.
In short, if you make judgements about others, they will do the same about you and where does that get us? People share in different ways, accept it and move on
I try to post as much to other people as I do my own stuff, but I'm also guilty of the occasional one line post in P+P when I see something that I really like....I generally avoid thread posting in GD unless I have something constructive to say....to be honest I feel more a sense of polycount community when I'm not on polycount....G+ is a great example of this, I feel like the PC community spirit is stronger on there than here at the moment....odd huh?
With regard to asking questions I gave up on that a while ago as I never recieved answers to any of them....I guess that if someone wants to write about their process they will have already, and if they haven't then why ask if they didn't want to do it in the first place.
On the other hand I have recently gotten to the level where folks are asking me questions about stuff, and I will try my best to answer, although half the time the people that ask never bother to say thank you anyway...I think that if you are going to ask something then a quick thank you later in the thread should just be the done thing.
probably rambling here....been a bad day....have drunk many beers
I can tell you, every time I hyave thought "oh its common knowledge" I find a thread asking how to do what I thought was common.
Especially if you have years and years of working experience, something you learned as a kludge on version 2.63 beta of whatever program you're using can be just drowned out in the modern features and be totally overlooked by the newbs.
Or sometimes its as simple as what amounts to workflow crossing. Like one whiny post I ranted about 5 years back when I found out how nodes in maya's shader workflow can be used effectively for rigging. Had it not been for a polycounter sending me toward a good resource and me actually reading it, I'd have been rigging the same way I did in 1999, and producing crap results, constantly thinking the discipline was harder than it was, because I didn't even know of the right tools.
Yeah you were annoying. :P So yeah I didn't so much help you grow as enjoy your emo comics.
There's so much stuff out there, all it takes is a little bit of effort to find. Whether it's on these forums, or others, in a magazine, in a tutorial, etc.
I actually like seeing paintovers and crits much more than full on tutorials, although those are also totally rad as long as they're done clearly.
I think a lot of people don't have time to detail process, it's always nice to read but usually there are only a handful of novel things in any one persons workflow, if any at all. It's always good manners to answer questions if you are asked them but a better use of your time is just to make more stuff if you are in that frame of mind. I've never had a problem with discreet artdumps, artists are selfish
this.
Actually I'm pretty sure adam was largely encouraging this very thing. More focus on the art, through communication that a lot of times isn't present. I don't think anyone can deny, talking about your art and the reasons for it can only help strengthen the community.
That being said, posting awesome art and keeping to yourself doesn't hurt the community - and does help it, if to a potentially smaller extent, so there's no reason to get mad at such people.
As pixelmasher said On the opposite side of the coin we see alot of artist who act like they dont know there bad ass, post a few beauty renders, and then every kid from hobbiest to AI post grad sit and jerk off to it.
and in the mean time people who actually know what there doing etc, and ask for a break down usually get there comments lost in the 20 pages of Ass grabbing.
But from things ive seen in the past the biggest thing that usually always made us push ourselves in the community and with each other were competitions.
Brawl was a great example, Jordan W mopped the floor with his amazing new DX11 tech...and then what does he do afterwards? He gives the scene out for people to look at and study?
Is he afraid that people are going to diss his work , steal his models or shaders? no he lets them go do there thing and hopefully take something to learn from it.
Look at unearthly challenge years ago when people were trying to figure out how to do hedges/topiary, We had Mark Dygert (vig) go out of his during a competition and give a break down of how he created it.
and there TONS and TONS more examples I can give. But I have to agree even I dont like to post newer stuff lately. Every time I do im just seeing alot of back patting and not enough "this would look better if"
and asside from the 1 or 2 senior members who are known for doing this kinda great feedback. I just feel its a bit sad alot of new rookies are joining and are to afraid to get there asses burnt / chewed out on and learn from it.
I mean here, great example
look at this POS
(memory lane for anyone?)
one of the first things I EVER did in 3D YEARS AND YEARS ago for a competition here on polycount! Yes it looking back now it sucked and wasnt all that great in comparison to others.
But it got members involved with my work and told me things to improve / direction to hit. I think as both a person and as a artist this solid push and people being involved is something I just dont see as much off anymore. Asside from a few old schoolers who I see still doing it I just wish the 2nd/3rd/4th generation of polycounters would have been a bit more active with this all is all :S
seriously we need to bring back competitions again! And then we can flush out alot of the bullshittery people easily with this!
Edit: Dear god that image burns my eyes, lol!
Also just for the sake if someone calls me on it, yes I like to troll every now and then to joke around, but for every troll I do I usually offer advice/feedback usually in PM's I get or on instant messengers outside of polycount as well.
Well.. I just want to add, that there is a lot of back patting, but you know sometimes it's really well deserved. I think sometimes also when crappy newbie artists are brave enough to post their work, they usually don't get swell enough critiques, I've noticed a lot of the time it's other newbies that critique their stuff. And that's fine and all but I feel like they may be focusing on the unimportant points or not being honest enough.
We are a community of teachers. Not ball strokers. . . but every now and then a ball needs to be stroked cause it's so magnificent.
I wonder if a +1 button would help reduce the clutter. If all you want to do is give an OMG/pants explosion then just +1. if you have something useful to add then post.
Mod scene is dead, all the latest techniques ain't that new, lets face it, this game art gig just ain't the childhood dream it used to be most the time.
Imma make a thread within the next month or so, workin on a small time indie game as the only artist. Wont be top end shit but i hope some people can take some inspiration from it. Making art for a small title is a whole diffent ball game with its own problems. Anyway i'll save that for later.
Still love this site, but any site connected to the game industry is going to go through some pains with the current state of the industry. Everyone's just goin' through the motions for their 9 to 5.
I remember when Adam had posted the evil genius thread, and I absolutely loved how he had setup the thread to outline everything that he wanted to accomplish, and it gave a great insight into his workflow. But as many have stated, some artists either don't have the time to do it, or maybe feel like the work they post speaks for itself, which I find can be very true.
Although I haven't been "active" on polycount as of late (always come everyday to see what is going on) the work that has been posted on the WAYWO thread has been absolutely inspirational, but I've also been learning a fair bit from it as well.
I think artists need to strike a very fine balance between being "fed" information, and activly seeking information on their own, be it through quality tutorials, friends / teachers AS WELL as inspirational images.
I do find that if you spend the time to actually ANALYZE an image instead of just browsing over and being "wow'ed" by pretty pictures, you can learn so much in such a short amount of time.
Now granted, for me this usually means I see the end product, and first try and understand WHAT exactly that end product is (could be how the rock was sculpted, how the building was put together), than, go through my head and reverse engineer how that artist got to that point. THAT is where I have personally learned the most.
And the fact is, you WILL make mistakes and guess things wrong, but from those mistakes, you begin to learn how to change those steps into proper workflows.
Of course, this is just my personal opinion / way of trying things out.
I think my point is that those who do a great job of explaining their workflow (Thiago Klafke "Minotaur0" and Michael Vicente "Orb" being recent favourites) can be just as effective as those who post Art Dumps in the WAYWO thread, just as long as you (the viewer) make sure to take the time and really study what the artist has done.
This is just my 2 cents, but what a great read so far
agree...
TL;DR: I am extremely lucky to be apart of a community of passionate artists who are willing to throw their 2 cents on the table and discuss such niche topics as community involvement. No matter where your opinions lay, this thread has been an awesome read and I thank everyone for participating (it sounds like I'm about to close this thread, I'm not).
Just to reiterate: We're not going to be forcing anything on people when it comes to how you showcase your artwork. Thats entirely up to you. I personally just feel everyone benefits a little more when explanation is included in your delivery.
Cheers guys and have a great weekend.
EDIT: And to riff off of Kev's reply: Hopefully I didn't put anyone down specifically about their character as an artist. I was out of line to call anyone or any way the use sites like polycount "lame". I'd like to chalk that one up to the amount of caffeine I was riding but it was just a poor choice of words. I simply think one way of showcasing artwork is better than another and wanted to see what others think. Please accept my apology if you were offended, it was unintentional - promise!
Speaking of...
Anywho this has been a great thread to read though.
pimp yo shit , you don't need words to be an artist!
Id rather see 3 high res images than a small image and a wall of text but that's just me im more visual.
It's also about posting at the right time, when you post that you're creating an environment but have nothing to show people lose interest. You have to have something to show but you don't want to be at the the end of the project either. It must look good as a WIP. Honest to god most of my WIPs are not pretty.
I'm also the kind of guy that give more comments/crits than I post artwork, then again I've been around a lot. 3 different companies in a little bit more than a year. Moving that much, being in crunch, personal artwork isn't the thing I'm thinking about when I get home, and when I do post artwork, most of the time I don't bother posting a big explanation of the workflow, because honestly, it's pretty straight forward. And for all the students/beginners, they can find a lot of awesome information in the wiki.
Most of the time you just have to create your own artwork to realize the pro/cons of the workflow of others. Sure I could share mine, but we all know that it's time-consuming. I do however love to share my workflow with people who asks about it, and I would rather do it in the thread than over PM.
That said I don't think polycount is a place where people are snobs about process.