good games a good game, who gives a shit who they drove inspiration from? Making a game fun on an iphone is an art in itself. i "hate" when people say this, but hater's gonna hate.
I've always really wondered how the legalities work for places like gameloft, I woulda figured they were cutting it too close, but then again even the other day I noticed all the remakes of Trials on xbox360.
It's still been something that always scared me about my own projects, I'd be curious if anybody here's had experience with the laws regarding how-close-is-too-close?
Gameloft is a big place, they most likely have the lawyers to answer that question.
But yeah, what MasteroftheFork said.
Angry birds is a good example of a relatively simple idea that wasn't changed much at all, but the appearance was.
ouch man Im glad Im not working there, that sounds like a terrible working environment, surely its not productive to work people that hard, its like slavery.
Makes me sad for the game industry in general when my work mates werent even surprised at this news.
Why aren't people working there reporting them to the government when they clearly are breaking worker laws? Are people really so afraid of what's gonna happen that they are gonna let this bullshit happen?
Ged: No, that is slavery; albeit in a modern day coating. Low pay, forced extensive overtime (ie. the article mentions a junior being forced to stay late by a producer) without compensation to reach inhumane deadlines. Nothing short of what's happening in sweatshops all over the world if you ask me.
Zpanzer: My guess would be: Fear of job-loss. From what I've gathered, NZ and AUS have a poor games industry, so keeping your jerb is pretty much imperative, and this apparently means withstanding such abhorring conditions. If someone were to report this to the NZ government, I'm pretty sure Gameloft will just shut down the Auckland studio rather then dealing with all those pesky laws.
And I reckon not everyone has the privilege or means to just pack their things together and cross the big pond for a job.
But does that make it any different? It's psychological slavery and simply abusive. What would you call being forced (be it through peer pressure, fear of losing your job or whatever) to work 100-120h weeks with a mininal pay and no compensation then? And to what end? So the studio shareholders and/or management can get another fat ass dividend while you get left out in the cold? "Unfair" doesn't quite cut it if you ask me.
Anyway, I personally never really liked Gameloft's games (except for Dungeon Hunter); but I never imagined Gameloft going down this route as well...
Its absurd that this is happening and keeps happening in developed countries, I can understand in a third world country like Africa or China. But in educated places where they have employment laws. Are people becoming less intelligent? Do they enjoy getting fucked? So what did they do before this? I expect with the hours and pay they are getting less than the minimum wage(if there is one).
I mean I'm in a shit job at the moment completely replaceable. But I wouldnt put up with rubbish like this for anything(especially if I loved the job because working like this would make me not love the job).
As this keeps going on I'm feeling less sympathy to the workers with this. If they want to get fucked then fuck em(I dont really mean that).
You cannot rely on these companys to be benevolent even the best minded ones with slogans saying dont be evil, will fuck you if you stand by and do nothing.
Why aren't people working there reporting them to the government when they clearly are breaking worker laws? Are people really so afraid of what's gonna happen that they are gonna let this bullshit happen?
Starting a witch hunt and such ( even if its just your own opinion) well its a litle bit counter productive.. You may not want to work there, but hey, its a small fucking world.
But does that make it any different? It's psychological slavery and simply abusive. What would you call being forced (be it through peer pressure, fear of losing your job or whatever) to work 100-120h weeks with a mininal pay and no compensation then?
stupidity - I know I could get higher pay and less hours in other industries - If there was a choice between 120h work weeks and switching industries it's a no brainer - even 60 hours a week is pushing it with me.
I don't think its stupid pursuing the career of your dreams.
Having your dreams crushed by an evil corporate machine is whats stupid.
This isnt just a job, its peoples lives, peoples goals and ambitions, its what they have studied years and years to be involved in, they are too far into it to just walk away.
It's funny because I think at one point late last year they resorted to using a third party recruiter who wouldn't name the client but it was pretty clear looking at the job descriptions who it was.
You would think they'd treat people better, otherwise word of mouth gets out and people learn.
It's funny because I think at one point late last year they resorted to using a third party recruiter who wouldn't name the client but it was pretty clear looking at the job descriptions who it was.
probably because they sent out that same Rafael Nadal art test they've been doing for years.
I can see your point, but I wouldn't put myself in a work where I was working 100 hours a week, not even if it was at Blizzard. I do have a passion for 3d, but when it gets away from my personal wellbeing, I know it's time to tone it down.
Wow, that explains the poor quality of the games they make. Who would be able to make quality when they're only getting 4 hours of sleep at the most and trying to pump out games? If I were them, I'd get together and stage a walkout. There's no job that's worth that much misery.
<---- Note to self: Don't comment on any threads regarding the treatment of employees without first hand knowledge or risk looking like an idiot :poly136:
Same shit is happening in Montreal. To a lesser degree (altho some years ago it was as bad), but the same exact BS about fake deadlines, last minute push 'cause some twat in Paris woke up one morning and said "oh let's be annoying today and ask for a version by the end of the week (on Thursday), then version every weeks making them work under constant deadlines", and extending delays after that push on the dam game is done, by 3 months (!!!) Major rework of levels, that were supposed to be approved 3 months ago, 2 weeks before shipping. Yes men all over the place who treat employees badly or frown upon them when they aren't willing to cope with the BS Paris (and by extension themselves) is throwing. Not even a bonus compensation throw here and there to cope with this shit. It's sure fine for a GL studio compared to other ones it seems.
You're basically forced to do shit or work overtime to meet the quality asked / constant changing deadlines making you do shit fast because some fucks in Paris changed his mind and pressuring the art director that this level needs to be changed artistically wise and needs to look like some stamp sized green screenshot from a totally different game (AAA game, not even the same genre) while the concept was at the opposite of the color wheel and supposedly approved, last minute end of the version coming out of nowhere...The list goes on and on, Character artists are using Zbrush to sculpt ultra high res meshes and bake that nice AO as a base start of their texture on an ultra low poly iphone mesh (!!!).
Maybe your experience is good there, there is no denying, but what about going to work in a nice setup environment with knowledgeable managers before saying it's fine? it's still the worse managed (if I can even say it's managed) studio in Montreal and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, which is a shame because there is a shitload of wasted talent there.
Thought I might chime in, I am currently a Character artist at the Auckland studio. I gave my 30 days notice moments before the news of that article came out. The decision to leave was for the most part, due to other more recent changes inside the company that I will not mention.
It is so very good to know that we aren't the only ones that have had to put up with this, so thanks fr0gg1e.
Despite what the article says, our internal producers and management did the best they could. But with the crazy deadlines, constant builds that have to be given and new ideas and changes constantly coming out of nowhere by someone who knows little about game design and production. Its no wonder my co-workers have had to do crazy hours for weeks on end. Lack of proper pre-production time for all departments has severely hindered development also.
The programmers seemed to have gotten most of the overtime, I do however seriously question the legitimacy of the "105-120 hours". A few long 15 hour shifts a week does not mean you do it all 7 days of that a week. It just doesn't add up, you would burnout very quickly. People got later and later to work when they did these long hours anyway, hardly ever did they start at a normal time.
In the article it also mentions a junior programmer working all night. This person told me he missed the bus home, so decided to stay at the office to make it easy on himself. He did not work the entire time. It also states in the article that Glenn Watson was "Head Studio Programmer", which despite what he said, was never the case. I am not defending Gameloft here, but stating that the article is not entirely accurate.
On the point of why anyone would work so much overtime? It's hard enough to find a games job in this country, there are very few studios here and a hell of a lot of fresh graduates looking for work. People have bills to pay and families to look after. It can also be very hard to find the time to work on one's portfolio in order to find another job. So you can imagine that its not that easy to just get the government involved, and likely loose people their jobs. Besides, the government give them major tax breaks and incentives to be here, who is to say that they would do anything about it anyway?
I am happy to be leaving and I have learned my lesson, I will never sign a contract like that again. I have made some great friends here, and have had the chance to work with some very talented people. I just hope another big studio starts up here that treats people how they should be treated (haha). Until then I will go back to working on TVC's, Film, stick to small start up companies or I will just simply move overseas and steal your jobs.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience at the Auckland branch Sculptor, I was hoping poor management was an issue at the Montreal studio only, but it seems that Paris likes to do it to every one of the studios judging from the article
I was in the same team as fr0ggie was as well, and I can attest it was a pretty bad experience to say the least. If this was my first experience in games I would have been like "oh it must be like this elsewhere" but it's not. It has been by far been the worst place I have worked in to date, although I am sure there are places out there that top it. And I have done some crazy hours in the past, but at least management gave comp time or showed some sort of appreciation via OT pay. Having some shitty champagne 'party' at the end of a project or being given the 6$ iPhone game you worked on doesn't really make up for made up deadlines and last minute addition / major overhaul.
I am honestly surprised I have lasted here as long as I have without just fucking walking out.
Sometimes it isn't always down to hours per week. I've seen my share of physiological harassment in companies, setting people up for failure with unreasonable deadlines, constant rework and blame games, finger pointing and so on. It almost always comes down to bad management. We are still in a young industry and a lot of companies have managers with very little game production experience, or artistically experienced people with very little management skill.
In most cases, people can absorb short pushes for long hours to meet deadlines, every profession in the world has these. The fundamental issue comes into play when the people no longer CARE about their product, due to the combination of reasons I've listen above, or more.
I always rate employee happiness on 3 factors. Project, People and Pay. If you have 2 of those, you are usually content. If your project is shovelware, the people that are managing you are dicks and your pay is average.. what is the company doing to keep you? I can imagine in New Zealand, where people have little choice they need to put up with it or change profession/relocate. In other major city game hubs though, companies need to be careful or they will shed people as new studios open up or need to hire for projects.
Despite what the article says, our internal producers and management did the best they could. But with the crazy deadlines, constant builds that have to be given and new ideas and changes constantly coming out of nowhere by someone who knows little about game design and production. Its no wonder my co-workers have had to do crazy hours for weeks on end. Lack of proper pre-production time for all departments has severely hindered development also.
...our internal producers and management did the best they could. But with the crazy deadlines, constant builds that have to be given and new ideas and changes constantly coming out of nowhere by someone who knows little about game design and production.
Replies
Gameloft is a big place, they most likely have the lawyers to answer that question.
But yeah, what MasteroftheFork said.
Angry birds is a good example of a relatively simple idea that wasn't changed much at all, but the appearance was.
Not suprised.
Makes me sad for the game industry in general when my work mates werent even surprised at this news.
Zpanzer: My guess would be: Fear of job-loss. From what I've gathered, NZ and AUS have a poor games industry, so keeping your jerb is pretty much imperative, and this apparently means withstanding such abhorring conditions. If someone were to report this to the NZ government, I'm pretty sure Gameloft will just shut down the Auckland studio rather then dealing with all those pesky laws.
And I reckon not everyone has the privilege or means to just pack their things together and cross the big pond for a job.
I take this comment back.
I'm sorry to hear people were/are? being pressured to work under such awful conditions
On a more serious note: I didn't actually expect this from gameloft. I thought that it was a good working-place, despite of the games.
Neither is sweatshop work if you go purely by it's definition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
But does that make it any different? It's psychological slavery and simply abusive. What would you call being forced (be it through peer pressure, fear of losing your job or whatever) to work 100-120h weeks with a mininal pay and no compensation then? And to what end? So the studio shareholders and/or management can get another fat ass dividend while you get left out in the cold? "Unfair" doesn't quite cut it if you ask me.
Anyway, I personally never really liked Gameloft's games (except for Dungeon Hunter); but I never imagined Gameloft going down this route as well...
I mean I'm in a shit job at the moment completely replaceable. But I wouldnt put up with rubbish like this for anything(especially if I loved the job because working like this would make me not love the job).
As this keeps going on I'm feeling less sympathy to the workers with this. If they want to get fucked then fuck em(I dont really mean that).
You cannot rely on these companys to be benevolent even the best minded ones with slogans saying dont be evil, will fuck you if you stand by and do nothing.
stupidity - I know I could get higher pay and less hours in other industries - If there was a choice between 120h work weeks and switching industries it's a no brainer - even 60 hours a week is pushing it with me.
Having your dreams crushed by an evil corporate machine is whats stupid.
This isnt just a job, its peoples lives, peoples goals and ambitions, its what they have studied years and years to be involved in, they are too far into it to just walk away.
You would think they'd treat people better, otherwise word of mouth gets out and people learn.
probably because they sent out that same Rafael Nadal art test they've been doing for years.
I can see your point, but I wouldn't put myself in a work where I was working 100 hours a week, not even if it was at Blizzard. I do have a passion for 3d, but when it gets away from my personal wellbeing, I know it's time to tone it down.
I've seen it but I don't think they use it anymore.
Great. Thanks
yeah they do, or at least they were in december of last year.
Castrated you mean.
Thank you Polycount, once again, in under a week, I spill my drink.
I'm so confused :poly105:
<---- Note to self: Don't comment on any threads regarding the treatment of employees without first hand knowledge or risk looking like an idiot :poly136:
:poly114b: Heh,Yep!
Thought I might chime in, I am currently a Character artist at the Auckland studio. I gave my 30 days notice moments before the news of that article came out. The decision to leave was for the most part, due to other more recent changes inside the company that I will not mention.
It is so very good to know that we aren't the only ones that have had to put up with this, so thanks fr0gg1e.
Despite what the article says, our internal producers and management did the best they could. But with the crazy deadlines, constant builds that have to be given and new ideas and changes constantly coming out of nowhere by someone who knows little about game design and production. Its no wonder my co-workers have had to do crazy hours for weeks on end. Lack of proper pre-production time for all departments has severely hindered development also.
The programmers seemed to have gotten most of the overtime, I do however seriously question the legitimacy of the "105-120 hours". A few long 15 hour shifts a week does not mean you do it all 7 days of that a week. It just doesn't add up, you would burnout very quickly. People got later and later to work when they did these long hours anyway, hardly ever did they start at a normal time.
In the article it also mentions a junior programmer working all night. This person told me he missed the bus home, so decided to stay at the office to make it easy on himself. He did not work the entire time. It also states in the article that Glenn Watson was "Head Studio Programmer", which despite what he said, was never the case. I am not defending Gameloft here, but stating that the article is not entirely accurate.
On the point of why anyone would work so much overtime? It's hard enough to find a games job in this country, there are very few studios here and a hell of a lot of fresh graduates looking for work. People have bills to pay and families to look after. It can also be very hard to find the time to work on one's portfolio in order to find another job. So you can imagine that its not that easy to just get the government involved, and likely loose people their jobs. Besides, the government give them major tax breaks and incentives to be here, who is to say that they would do anything about it anyway?
I am happy to be leaving and I have learned my lesson, I will never sign a contract like that again. I have made some great friends here, and have had the chance to work with some very talented people. I just hope another big studio starts up here that treats people how they should be treated (haha). Until then I will go back to working on TVC's, Film, stick to small start up companies or I will just simply move overseas and steal your jobs.
And of course I understand that what you are reporting sucks
I was in the same team as fr0ggie was as well, and I can attest it was a pretty bad experience to say the least. If this was my first experience in games I would have been like "oh it must be like this elsewhere" but it's not. It has been by far been the worst place I have worked in to date, although I am sure there are places out there that top it. And I have done some crazy hours in the past, but at least management gave comp time or showed some sort of appreciation via OT pay. Having some shitty champagne 'party' at the end of a project or being given the 6$ iPhone game you worked on doesn't really make up for made up deadlines and last minute addition / major overhaul.
I am honestly surprised I have lasted here as long as I have without just fucking walking out.
In most cases, people can absorb short pushes for long hours to meet deadlines, every profession in the world has these. The fundamental issue comes into play when the people no longer CARE about their product, due to the combination of reasons I've listen above, or more.
I always rate employee happiness on 3 factors. Project, People and Pay. If you have 2 of those, you are usually content. If your project is shovelware, the people that are managing you are dicks and your pay is average.. what is the company doing to keep you? I can imagine in New Zealand, where people have little choice they need to put up with it or change profession/relocate. In other major city game hubs though, companies need to be careful or they will shed people as new studios open up or need to hire for projects.
I bloody lol'd!