I'd just like to ask, is there anything wrong with having triangles and N-gons on the high? I know it can create smoothing errors with turbo-smooth, but will it affect the final bake? Some meshes I have tried It's difficult to have zilch tris and N's.
Continuing my high poly work right now as I go forth in that area when I get the chance. So I just ran into a strange problem. When I res this thing up, I get that pinching there at that spot. Can anyone elaborate on a fix for this? It's odd that it'd be doing it since I have ti all quad up and the verts are lining up with each other if you saw it from the top view.
Either you have unwelded verts - in which case cntrl a and set a weld threshold of about 0.1 and see if it gets rid of it, or clear all the smoothing groups and autosmooth it again. When you say you upressed it im guessing you didnt use a meshsmooth or turbosmooth? In which case cutting by hand can often leave isolated verts which are not welded to anything.
Great tips everyone. can i have some help with this. i need to do a shell. i found this pic, and cant figure out how to model this without doing it all by hand methods? thx for the help.
you could create a spiral spline then select the top face of a cylinder and use the "extrude along spline" option in the editable poly tools. I believe that has a taper option whilst you can also control segments, twist and some other things. None of the options are 100% accurate but some will yeild better results that others.
Ive had to do sea-shells before at work - the easiest way I found was to make a circle spline, and use array to make a bunch of rotated and scalled copies - then I attached them all together and bridged edges together. A Helix with a loft is a good method too, but I noticed it tends to get pinchy in the center.
So I use smoothing groups and the sub-d in the Max poly tool to build my high rez. How do you make a inset beveled then recessed square on a flat surface without the plane curving into/over the edge of the square area? Adding more edge loops doesn't help except in making the curve over smaller.
Here is what I mean.
Result
I guess I could add a edge loop to the actual corner bevel, but then, Unless its 00 distance, that will bevel the edge slightly. If I did a 00 distance, that would leave a distinct line on the planar surface which is supposed to be flat.
Yea, I did that with HDSD or whatever its called, and it just makes a smaller curve over. I do like doing everything inside the edit poly tool since I dont have to have a stack. I just figured out though that with a 00, even though the lower rez shows an edge on the flat surface, the sub-d doesnt. So I guess I just figured it out?
I'm trying to figure out why though. It makes sub-d easier to separate out hard edges from what I have done. Instead of having to camfer 20 "00" edge edge loops. I can just say, here, all these are 1 smoothing group so smooth away. Wait, this area is a separate smoothing group, so make a distinct edge between them.
That and say I don't like the result of something. I can change the smoothing group. Versus having to figure out which camfer(s) I need to weld back together.
Yea, but I dont know if thats what EQ is referring to the reason being? As it is, this is mechanical sub-d. Chamfer edges in reallife on mechanical parts may physically exist, but many times they are soo minute to not be noticeable to the human eye.
In example. When is the last time you saw the edge of your razor blade without using a magnifying glass?
No I do not know the solution. Which is why I am asking. Should I just ask in private to EQ?
Its a bit frustrating that its assumed that I know the answer. I want to know the reasons behind the answer given. So shoot me for wanting to understand versus just doing something without a clue to as the reason.
Can you give me a more detailed answer of why using chamfers versus using smoothing groups? No one has been able to answer thus far, and suddenly I'm being a pompous ass for asking questions.
I really want to know the full reasoning.
Sure, first off there are pretty much two ways to do hard edge stuff without adding in extra geometry, that i know of.
First is to use smoothing groups for your hard edges in max. One of the big disadvantages to doing this is that you always have infinately hard edges. Really nothing in life has an edge that hard, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for models to, and in a lot of cases getting that nice bevel on your edges will really help in the normals map. While your example that with a lot of things, they only have a very minute edge is true, its not really always the best to try and emulate reality 100% with art. Most of the time you will want to exagerate your edges to help make your forms read better, or to show up in your normals better, etc. Knowing what sort of distance your prop will be viewed at, texture resolution it will use and exactly how and where to exagerate your edge thickness to take advantages of those things can really be the difference between a good highpoly model and a poor one.
Secondly, you can use edge weighting in some programs, where you select an edge loop and give it a weight value. While in theory this is a really cool feature, in practice its often un-intuitive and overly complex. Generally with the same amount of effort, you can add in geometry to get the same effect, without having to use clunky UI's to set vertex values and all of that stuff. Edge weights are also something that i dont think you can convert easily from one app to another, where as doing everything with geometry is going to smooth the same more or less in modo/max/maya etc. So if you ever need to use multiple programs, edge weighting is pretty much out of the question. Even for something like zbrush/mudbox, you would have to freeze your sub-division, and loose the ability to work on the bottom 1/2 layers of your cage.
In the end, what all of this means is that finding work arounds to doing sub-d in what is widely recognized as the conventional way, is only going to get you so far. Most programs these days have pretty good tools that work very well for specifically the problems you've mentioned above. Selecting an edge loop and removing, instead of welding, this takes only a second to do, etc. Getting comfortable with these types of modeling practices will really help you in the long run.
Sure, first off there are pretty much two ways to do hard edge stuff without adding in extra geometry, that i know of.
First is to use smoothing groups for your hard edges in max. One of the big disadvantages to doing this is that you always have infinately hard edges. Really nothing in life has an edge that hard, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for models to, and in a lot of cases getting that nice bevel on your edges will really help in the normals map. While your example that with a lot of things, they only have a very minute edge is true, its not really always the best to try and emulate reality 100% with art. Most of the time you will want to exagerate your edges to help make your forms read better, or to show up in your normals better, etc. Knowing what sort of distance your prop will be viewed at, texture resolution it will use and exactly how and where to exagerate your edge thickness to take advantages of those things can really be the difference between a good highpoly model and a poor one.
Secondly, you can use edge weighting in some programs, where you select an edge loop and give it a weight value. While in theory this is a really cool feature, in practice its often un-intuitive and overly complex. Generally with the same amount of effort, you can add in geometry to get the same effect, without having to use clunky UI's to set vertex values and all of that stuff. Edge weights are also something that i dont think you can convert easily from one app to another, where as doing everything with geometry is going to smooth the same more or less in modo/max/maya etc. So if you ever need to use multiple programs, edge weighting is pretty much out of the question. Even for something like zbrush/mudbox, you would have to freeze your sub-division, and loose the ability to work on the bottom 1/2 layers of your cage.
In the end, what all of this means is that finding work arounds to doing sub-d in what is widely recognized as the conventional way, is only going to get you so far. Most programs these days have pretty good tools that work very well for specifically the problems you've mentioned above. Selecting an edge loop and removing, instead of welding, this takes only a second to do, etc. Getting comfortable with these types of modeling practices will really help you in the long run.
Ok thanks. That helps me understand it better. Next high rez I make, I will use chamfers to create it.
Been wanting to ask this question for a long time. I usually always end up in trouble when doing more complex shapes. If I just start edge extruding form I might get the shape right, but it'll lack them sharp clean forms primitive shapes provide. Ages of poly pushing gets me closer, but it just feels like im going about this stuff in the wrong way.
Im working on a highpoly bow atm., mainly for Nmaps. Its a fairly simple thing really, except for one place.
Its the area right below the handle (with the two cylider.. thingys). Combining multiple soft shapes while keeping the right forms so it doesnt look sloppy.
@ Scrumworks, a shape like that would be a combo of modded primitives and some edge pulling. I really can't quantify it into anything simpler than that. If you can post a higher res image of this concept, I can draw over how I'd go about it and post an example.
Made some slight progress in the area. Find that I usually lean too much towards the orthos, trying to define shapes that really only work/exist in 2d-land... rather then just using my f'ing head.
You're doing fine. Just be sure that the edges that are machined look so (clean nice edges). Parts where the cloth meets the metal, have it look as if it was clipped in or sewn.
Allright so I ran into a tiny tri problem. Having that noticeable tri in my model is not giving me the result I want when I sub-d the mesh as you can see, it gives a result that I don't want. I need where the tri is at, to just be a simple "hard-edge," and not gon bonkers on me like that. Obviously having a tri like that creates problems so can anyone possibly draw me an edge loop to make to rid myself of it?
note: have not added control edges so the blobiness is supposed to look "hard-edged" once i put those control edges in there.
can you explain further what you actually want? I'm not sure I understand. Currently, I'd just pull those lines that are forming a 3 point intersection in the middle of a plane on the right side?
what i need is to get rid of the tri there because it's causing problems, so what i tried was cutting from the edge and looping that cut somewhere so that it would be quaded up, but it still gave me a weird result.
basically what i need is to figure out how to get rid of that nasty tri there so that i may be able to define the edge there better. currently if i try adding edges around that area, the tri stops those edges from making the outline/shape/contour i would like.
all the edges i currently have in the model are needed, but it all boils down to me needing to rid my model of that nasty tri that you can see in the old and new pictures. if more info is needed or it's still not as clear, let me know. need to figure this out O_o
the second picture that shows the blue lines are the wires i highlighted in the 1st picture except in this one i zoomed in to highlight the problem and my solution to it, but it didn't give me what I wanted plus it won't allow me to define the "hard-edge" i would like there.
i just realized maybe i'm making this too much of a big deal especially when that shape i highlighted will be extruded anyways, but I figure i'll run into this similar problem down the line in a different situation where that tri will become a pain in the butt. thanks guys!
Made some slight progress in the area. Find that I usually lean too much towards the orthos, trying to define shapes that really only work/exist in 2d-land... rather then just using my f'ing head.
Hey guys. I'm new at the Sub-D modelling stuff, and never used it. I've heard it would be good in vehicle modelling, so before I start modelling I think I should start in a lowpoly mesh of the car but keeping the lines (aerodinamics, etc...) with chamfers and quads only for later meshsmoothing, right?
Hey, I have been trying to learn sub-d for a few weeks now, and I understand the basics. I just have a few quick questions that someone who is familiar with 3ds max can help me with.
1. I am wondering on how to make my workflow work the best, do I start off with blocked out shapes, then go in and add edge loops, or do I start with a single plane, add loops, then add more planes? (I really wouldn't do too well with that one...)
2. And if I do the first, is there a nice little shortcut to offset edges in max? If you have used AutoCad you should know what I mean, I select and edge and it creates another one a defined distance parrallel to the original. Or if not, how can I accurately add my loops?
ngons are a only a problem when they're causing noticable artifacts, anything that you cant visually see as a problem, isnt a problem
And also yeah, modo has a nifty little feature that lets you "repeat selection" you just select 2 verts, and hit the up arrow and it continues doing the same. Its really quite usefull.
Allright guys, here's a little problem I ran into while practicing sub-d on this weapon I'm modelling (I know it's very simple but going through things like this helps me learn the basics).
So say you have a weapon such as a scythe that has that tip at the very end of it's blade. Here's a ref pic for you...
Many weapons have this such as a sword or axe. Now if I'm modelling the blade part of these weapons, it's not problem. When it comes to sub-d modelling that, it becomes a problem. I want to get that tip sharp but that would mean collapsing the edges and thus, you get weird problems with your high poly smoothed out.
Here's a left view and then a perspective view of the problem I face with this blade tip. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks again guys!
thanks for that Perna!! That helps a ton...sometimes I think about it a little too much and don't realize how simple it is to solve what I need to fix my problem.
Replies
Either you have unwelded verts - in which case cntrl a and set a weld threshold of about 0.1 and see if it gets rid of it, or clear all the smoothing groups and autosmooth it again. When you say you upressed it im guessing you didnt use a meshsmooth or turbosmooth? In which case cutting by hand can often leave isolated verts which are not welded to anything.
Here is what I mean.
Result
I guess I could add a edge loop to the actual corner bevel, but then, Unless its 00 distance, that will bevel the edge slightly. If I did a 00 distance, that would leave a distinct line on the planar surface which is supposed to be flat.
I'm trying to figure out why though. It makes sub-d easier to separate out hard edges from what I have done. Instead of having to camfer 20 "00" edge edge loops. I can just say, here, all these are 1 smoothing group so smooth away. Wait, this area is a separate smoothing group, so make a distinct edge between them.
That and say I don't like the result of something. I can change the smoothing group. Versus having to figure out which camfer(s) I need to weld back together.
Is there something Im missing?
In example. When is the last time you saw the edge of your razor blade without using a magnifying glass?
dont add chanfers/control edges until you have a clean base shape .
Its a bit frustrating that its assumed that I know the answer. I want to know the reasons behind the answer given. So shoot me for wanting to understand versus just doing something without a clue to as the reason.
Sure, first off there are pretty much two ways to do hard edge stuff without adding in extra geometry, that i know of.
First is to use smoothing groups for your hard edges in max. One of the big disadvantages to doing this is that you always have infinately hard edges. Really nothing in life has an edge that hard, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for models to, and in a lot of cases getting that nice bevel on your edges will really help in the normals map. While your example that with a lot of things, they only have a very minute edge is true, its not really always the best to try and emulate reality 100% with art. Most of the time you will want to exagerate your edges to help make your forms read better, or to show up in your normals better, etc. Knowing what sort of distance your prop will be viewed at, texture resolution it will use and exactly how and where to exagerate your edge thickness to take advantages of those things can really be the difference between a good highpoly model and a poor one.
Secondly, you can use edge weighting in some programs, where you select an edge loop and give it a weight value. While in theory this is a really cool feature, in practice its often un-intuitive and overly complex. Generally with the same amount of effort, you can add in geometry to get the same effect, without having to use clunky UI's to set vertex values and all of that stuff. Edge weights are also something that i dont think you can convert easily from one app to another, where as doing everything with geometry is going to smooth the same more or less in modo/max/maya etc. So if you ever need to use multiple programs, edge weighting is pretty much out of the question. Even for something like zbrush/mudbox, you would have to freeze your sub-division, and loose the ability to work on the bottom 1/2 layers of your cage.
In the end, what all of this means is that finding work arounds to doing sub-d in what is widely recognized as the conventional way, is only going to get you so far. Most programs these days have pretty good tools that work very well for specifically the problems you've mentioned above. Selecting an edge loop and removing, instead of welding, this takes only a second to do, etc. Getting comfortable with these types of modeling practices will really help you in the long run.
Ok thanks. That helps me understand it better. Next high rez I make, I will use chamfers to create it.
Im working on a highpoly bow atm., mainly for Nmaps. Its a fairly simple thing really, except for one place.
[my concept]
http://www.scumworks.com/images/2d/images/bow.jpg
Its the area right below the handle (with the two cylider.. thingys). Combining multiple soft shapes while keeping the right forms so it doesnt look sloppy.
Any suggestions? :')
Heres a higher res.
http://www.scumworks.com/otr/conceptart/bow.jpg
I realize these things gets easier with practice, just sucks redoing the same piece over and over because you aight satisfied.
note: have not added control edges so the blobiness is supposed to look "hard-edged" once i put those control edges in there.
-far shot of wires-
-sub-divided O_o-
-up-close-
basically what i need is to figure out how to get rid of that nasty tri there so that i may be able to define the edge there better. currently if i try adding edges around that area, the tri stops those edges from making the outline/shape/contour i would like.
all the edges i currently have in the model are needed, but it all boils down to me needing to rid my model of that nasty tri that you can see in the old and new pictures. if more info is needed or it's still not as clear, let me know. need to figure this out O_o
the second picture that shows the blue lines are the wires i highlighted in the 1st picture except in this one i zoomed in to highlight the problem and my solution to it, but it didn't give me what I wanted plus it won't allow me to define the "hard-edge" i would like there.
i just realized maybe i'm making this too much of a big deal especially when that shape i highlighted will be extruded anyways, but I figure i'll run into this similar problem down the line in a different situation where that tri will become a pain in the butt. thanks guys!
Here is what I was messing around with:
And great work here, very interesting
1. I am wondering on how to make my workflow work the best, do I start off with blocked out shapes, then go in and add edge loops, or do I start with a single plane, add loops, then add more planes? (I really wouldn't do too well with that one...)
2. And if I do the first, is there a nice little shortcut to offset edges in max? If you have used AutoCad you should know what I mean, I select and edge and it creates another one a defined distance parrallel to the original. Or if not, how can I accurately add my loops?
Sorry if I don't make sense.
Yeha.
It's a script.
It's called modo
You MAY be able to do that with the new Max's Graphite tools. I think.
What's the verdict on 8-sided polys? No big deal right?
And also yeah, modo has a nifty little feature that lets you "repeat selection" you just select 2 verts, and hit the up arrow and it continues doing the same. Its really quite usefull.
All I cant hink of now is having two loops there really close together and then fade them apart the further they go away. Not so clean.
It's been too long since I've done this seriously
So say you have a weapon such as a scythe that has that tip at the very end of it's blade. Here's a ref pic for you...
http://setcha.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/scythe.jpg
Many weapons have this such as a sword or axe. Now if I'm modelling the blade part of these weapons, it's not problem. When it comes to sub-d modelling that, it becomes a problem. I want to get that tip sharp but that would mean collapsing the edges and thus, you get weird problems with your high poly smoothed out.
Here's a left view and then a perspective view of the problem I face with this blade tip. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks again guys!
Left
Persp Blade Tip
http://www.3dtotal.com/team/Tutorials_3/modeling_mercedes/modeling_mercedes01.asp