I think Jack's motivation all along to go back has to been to find his father back on the Island.
I think Locke sealed the deal for him initially.
It's his death and insistence that they all need to return that makes him feel maybe Locke was on to something. Maybe just an intense guilt about his 'suicide'.
Still makes you wonder what exactly is Locke's role in this all. It seems like he's a fulcrum for everybody.
After reading Lostpedia instead of doing something productive. I think Jacob told Hurley to go back to the island. He speaks through the dead. So He appeared as the dead survivors to Hurley, and he wasn't seeing things all along.
You have to remember that Jack had been seeing his dad too, so Locke only needed to say he had also and that he'd actually talked to Locke, like Jacob had talked to Locke while Ben has had to pretend for years that Jacob still communicates with him....
Thats why Ben tends not to kill people from the Island, he isn't totally sure anymore which of them are important to Jacob, he resents Locke for having that link with Jacob, thats why he shot Locke in a rare of moment where he lost control and let his emotions overtake his patience, the thing he most prides in himself as revealed in season4.
I can't quite call it on Ben strangling Locke, aggressive suicide assistance or clutching grasp at the notion of returning to the Island and being redeemed now that he's learned how to get back.
I suspect it was emotion again, he is not meant to be back on the Island, I sort of doubt he will be killed for that right away but maybe eventually he will be.
I'm pretty stuck on the idea that Widmore and Ben are both 2 sides of the same coin, Ben just won out in the end previously is all it needs to be thats motivating things. I doubt either Widmore of Ben truly understand that the Island can bring someone back to life, I doubt they have seen that extent of power and are still realizing how unique Locke is.
I actually think its his doubt in himself that makes him the force for change that he is. Losers don't question themselves as much as winners is my theory.
I think it was a pretty good episode. Weird how Ben strangles Locke on hearing about Faraday's mum...maybe he knew then he had to replicate the first crash as closely as possible? Does he know Jack's dad was on the plane in a coffin? I mean, the past few episodes have been further in the future than this one, and he seems pretty intent on getting Locke back on the island.
This time-travelling thing is starting to confuse me. :poly124:
Man, best episode of the season so far. Awesome. Reminded me of season 2 (i think). I'll take single-character backstory episodes as long as they kick ass. Screw all the stuff where they try to cram 800 perspectives in one episode.
Daaark, that's what I meant to. So yeah, that's an unusual level of consensus
Ben wants info on getting back to Island, Ben knows Locke (and by extension, Widmore) is his best bet of getting info, Locke provides info, Ben disposes of Locke, Ben is then told to recreate the crash with all the survivors and uses Locke in place of Christian (both characters with strong ties to Jacob).
And Slum I totally agree. Lost is best when each episode is dedicated mainly to one character. That's what the first two seasons were all about: telling stories about the lives of a different character each episode. On the other hand there are so many important characters now that it's probably hard for them to find the time to do that anymore. It's just the nature of a show that becomes continually more complicated with time. Locke is, and always has been, a special case. Same with Desmond (oh you can bet he's getting an episode soon).
As for as "who is the real bad guy" I think the answer is basically everyone. Even Locke has been a total dick at times. A lot of what he's done is very selfishly motivated. On the other hand they've pretty much turned him into Jesus so the answer may be basically everyone but Locke from now on.
I agree, I like it when the show focuses on one thing. It doesn't have to be a backstory deal (though those made up most of series one, which I liked). It could focus on one group that is together at the time. But I do wish they would stop jumping between people/groups throughout a single episode. It makes it very hard to take in/follow, though I'm sure that's part of the point.
I prefer the episodes where there is a bit more group adventuring myself...for instance I thought episode 6 was a better episode than the one just gone.
I prefer episodes where Hurley screams like a girl and throws HotStuffs at people. You ever think that it might not have been blood that Ben was covered in? FOOD FIGHT!
Fuck yeah! The statue finally!.... oh wait, it's gone I hope that isn't the 'explanation'.
Oh SHIT, I may have been right about the losties being part of dharma!
Update: Ok, I may only be partially correct Interesting though... WHEN are the other losties? Are they to be found around this time now, by Jin?
Good episode, I think we just got played again, with the statue. I'll be that never gets explained. My question now is, do they get killed by Ben and the others later on? Also, Daniel saw his love interest as a child? That's a little child molester creepy
I was wondering if we've seen lafluers body somewhere before...looked it up on lost wiki.. guess not just seems familiar for some reason.
Lafleur was a security guard in some movie I saw awhile back. I made that connection from there. Just coincidence.
It was awesome to finally see the Anubis statue.
I'm starting to wonder more about Ben. I didn't post this last week because I didn't want to double post. But he killed Locke, maybe out of necessity? They needed to recreate the flight, and that meant a dead body in the plane. Hence, they only way Locke could save the island was by dying.
Add that to the fact that Ben talked about resurrection after that with Jack in the church. There seems to be some christian mythology in there, along with some Egyptian-type stuff, so maybe Locke couldn't commit suicide, because he would go to hell, and wouldn't be able to come back on the island?
whoah great call on the anubis ahnk tie-in. There is so much stuff I miss in these episodes. I'm so glad I found this thread.
The Anubis thing has been speculated on for years. There is all kinds of clues, both in the characters names, and in little details of the world. Ben reading Ulysses a few weeks ago was a good tip off.
Jacob has a lot of mixed meaning. And he is also known in the bible as the grandfather of Aaron. Jacob and Christian (who's body has gone missing on the island) have some kind of connection, and Jack's sister is Aaron's mother. So there must be some kind of relation there.
Also note that Christian has talked to a good deal of the important characters, and even set some events in motion. He basically talked Sawyer into being a man and shooting that guy.
Jacob is also stuck in limbo. That character tonight, Horace, has been on the show before. He's dead, stuck in limbo, in a infinite loop of building Jacob's cabin. This is very similar to Jacob's ladder. Jacob also has a son named Benjamin.
So Ben -may be related to Jack and Claire.
A lot of the characters on the show are named after people who have done something very similar to their roles on the show. Look it up on Lostpedia. There are real life people who have written books about things that are happening in LOST.
Lots of clues out there, it's just hard to put them all together.
Check out the reference with Alpert:
* The real-life Dr. Richard Alpert (aka Ram Dass) is a noted psychologist and Hindu spiritualist. In 1963, he was dismissed from Harvard University for his research (in collaboration with Timothy Leary, Aldous Huxley, Allen Ginsberg and others) into psilocybin, LSD-25, and other psychedelic chemicals. He later traveled to India, where he was given his Hindu spiritual name "Ram Dass", which translates as "Servant of God". Alpert wrote of his experiences in an unusual tome entitled Be Here Now, and founded the Hanuman Foundation. See Bio and Wikipedia entry. Damon Lindelof confirmed that the character of Alpert was indeed named after a famous person. [1]
* Richard Alpert's colleague Aldous Huxley wrote a book called Island, which has been referenced in Lost, most specifically with regard to the Pala Ferry; Pala is a Utopian island in Huxley's book.
There are so many Jacob references in his trivia section that all tie into the events of the show.
I think we've seen enough Egyptian artifacts (statue, glyphs, necklace, arrows, canoes) in the last few episodes, to explain Richard's bizzare eyeliner.
Im not sure if that's a joke or not as he's always in any role I've seen him he looks like that supposedly it's not eyeliner just really dark eyelashes, in Batman his eyes look like that too..
So..
Another question I had if the losties are now part of Dharma in 1977, what year did Ben kill them all? I'm pretty sure in 1977 Ben should be about 20 so the Dharma folks would be dead already.
Also Horrace has another wife Olivia Goodspeed, not Amy from last nights episode who was Ben's teacher, and was also there shortly after Ben was born.
i love that sawyer is screwing up things in the past, now kate,jack is back too they can really mess it all up hahaha.
I find myself wondering which of the cast is Jacob, I often wonder if its going to be Jack because of the family tie ins, but last night i wondered if it would be Sawyer, who swore to wait for Locke....
I'm curious what they were digging/searching for. Is this what the previous group was digging for? (when Sawyer and Kate were captured) Is he looking for the bomb? Something we haven't heard about yet?
Anyway, definitely the statue is Anubis, which makes you go back to wondering if this is a purgatory type of arrangement. Or at least, it's symbolic of determine good and evil.
Anyone who goes to move the island ends up in Tunisia, which is in the north part of Africa, sort of by Egypt? They might be hinting that the island was once in the Mediterranean or part of north Africa?
They are definitely pushing the connection to Africa/Egypt. The island being part of the underworld/purgatory/limbo would explain quite a bit. Why dead people come back to life.
Maybe its hasn't always been a one way trip off the island. Maybe it was used to port sick, dying, dead people to the island/underworld. And the people being ported to the island after a while figured out a way to get back. Then the port to the island was lost.
I'd really like to know how the sub comes and goes and how Darma (and the Black Rock for that matter) found the island...
Well, as they've already proven, there are ways to get to the island, but it requires knowing exact points, which I'm sure they travel through with the sub.
I'm actually curious if the location of the island is exactly opposite side of the globe from the point in Tunisia.
I'm curious what they were digging/searching for. Is this what the previous group was digging for? (when Sawyer and Kate were captured) Is he looking for the bomb? Something we haven't heard about yet?
Jesus talk about a blast from the past! Yeah, you might be right!
I'm actually curious if the location of the island is exactly opposite side of the globe from the point in Tunisia.
That's an interesting idea. They still haven't addressed the issue of the island actually moving/disappearing. We know it moves through time, but the last episode of last season it actually physically moved in position. Is the island subject to Pangaea and naturally drifts along on the earths crust? That would be pretty easy to track once you found it. Or is it actually independent from the earth and depending the rotation of the earth could it actually hit land? Have they just been lucky and because the world is mostly water it stays an island? Was it once a solid chunk of land in Egypt/Tunisia that was broken off into an island when it moved?
Yes, Vig. That is likely how the Black Rock got stranded in the middle of the island. Time changed, island changed location based on its place in time, and the Black Rock just happened to be drifting/sailing over the middle point of the island just at the moment when the island appeared into the Black Rock's place in time.
No LOST discussions this week? The episode didn't provide to much, other than to prove that they were back in time (which we already knew). It helped place the year, and that Ben, Sun, and Locke were definitely still in the future timeline.
Cool points during the episode:
- Seeing the plans for the station they find first (was that he pearl? Can't remember which is which)
- The plane crash landing (especially seeing them cut through the mountains)
- Christian walking out and showing Sun a picture of Jin in the dharma photo
- When Jack asks Sawyer, "You know these people all die, right?"
- Sun knocking Ben out
- Seeing the young Ben
I'm already disliking this new guy. "Maybe you need new charts?" Yeah, like it's the pilots fault that he doesn't know where the island is (although he did at one time ) I hope he uses that shotgun he found a few episodes back, and shoots is own fucking head off.
Hehe. Yeah, I don't like the new guy or the cop chick. She's like a gimp Anna Lucia. Either way, hate em both.
Poor Frank! Hah. If I were him I'd have been crapping myself from the moment I saw all the losties on the plane. The guy was just trying to fly a plane! haha.
What's more interesting though, is that those that landed on the plane are in a completely different timeline than those who got pulled out in the time bubble. It looks like those that landed are in a future timeline, as newotherton is rather worn down and delapidated. It will be interesting to see the effects in their time from what happens in Sawyer's timeline. Interesting indeed.
What I'd like to know is, if the time skipping stopped 3 years ago when Sawyer & Co joined Dharma, how the hell did the time bubble "pull" the losties out of the plane as they flew over? I thought that shit was fixed! And why didn't it take Sun? That's so strange.
I enjoyed the episode, but yeah it's really weird.
I don't think all the others are going to die in the pit anymore by ben. Seeing the new 'otherton' as vassago put it makes me think that everything is going to be different. It has to be. The other's houses weren't fucked up in all the rest of the show like they are now, unless it just happened in those past 3 years (which is completely possible)..
also, is it just me, or where is everyone else they went back to the island trying to save?
Didn't take Ben either, I assume that's why he's in rush. To get back to the Island and ask Jacob why he's been cast aside. Sun probably wasn't taken because it interferes with 1977's Jin's fate, which might be more important to the island than we currently know.
And I know we saw that pit with all the dead dharma dudes in it...but I would say there is a twist there too. I just get that feeling. Although we do know Horace is dead. Pity, I like him.
Oh, I forgot, they confirmed that Ethan was the baby, which several suspected.
I don't think they'll be able to change the timeline though. Maybe they'll have the heads up and avoid the gassing though.
I can't remember now. Did Desmond end up on the plane? If so, where is he now? I'm curious to see what happens with Sayid, since it appears that they 'return' him to the hostiles.
Who knows... maybe that's how they end it. They still haven't covered what Faraday is doing, which Jack eluded to this week, and Sawyer responded as though Faraday was gone (mentally).
That's part of what I was thinking (them dying ends the show). Also, maybe Ben didn't get flashed back in time, because he already exists there (as a child). Maybe Locke and Sun also have something in their timeline in the 70's that keeps them from entering the island in that timeline
I don't think they're going to be able to change time at all. That's the rule they put in place.
They're needed in the past so they can do exactly what has been done. We're just witnessing a linear time line through their eyes.
Well, not really. Faraday told Sawyer you can't change what's already happened, and then proceeded to knock on the door and tell Desmond to find his mother in the future, and then all of a sudden in present day Desmond remembered and had to find Faraday's mother. So they can change time, but seems like Desmond is an anomaly.
Well, not really. Faraday told Sawyer you can't change what's already happened, and then proceeded to knock on the door and tell Desmond to find his mother in the future, and then all of a sudden in present day Desmond remembered and had to find Faraday's mother. So they can change time, but seems like Desmond is an anomaly.
yea and Desmond becoming the anamoly probably happened waay back when they didnt enter the numbers. Then a white light happened and Desmond is found running naked through the jungle.
It would also be interesting to see if Faraday influenced any of the Dharma experiments about time travel. Since 30 years in the past would be a good spot. Remember those Dharma video's?
Faraday has obviously turned into the crazy dude that the redhead was affraid of as a kid. So he had an opportunity to change the past by NOT telling her she was going to die, but he probably didn't or won't.
The more I watch the show the less interested I am about the actual characters themselves and more about the instances of plot that span all 3 times. (The Statue, the Smoke Monster, Jack's Father, Locke's ressurection, Richard Alpert). The character interactions now between Jack-Kate-Saywer-Juliet are so secondary in my mind, I almost find it boring. Just a thought anyways. The end of this season is coming up pretty fast.
Replies
correct I think.
The plane crashed on present day.
The O6 were teleported back in sync with the others that stayed.
I think Locke sealed the deal for him initially.
It's his death and insistence that they all need to return that makes him feel maybe Locke was on to something. Maybe just an intense guilt about his 'suicide'.
Still makes you wonder what exactly is Locke's role in this all. It seems like he's a fulcrum for everybody.
http://lostpedia.wikia.com
Also say that the biblical Jacob was the great grandfather of Aaron.
Thats why Ben tends not to kill people from the Island, he isn't totally sure anymore which of them are important to Jacob, he resents Locke for having that link with Jacob, thats why he shot Locke in a rare of moment where he lost control and let his emotions overtake his patience, the thing he most prides in himself as revealed in season4.
I can't quite call it on Ben strangling Locke, aggressive suicide assistance or clutching grasp at the notion of returning to the Island and being redeemed now that he's learned how to get back.
I suspect it was emotion again, he is not meant to be back on the Island, I sort of doubt he will be killed for that right away but maybe eventually he will be.
I'm pretty stuck on the idea that Widmore and Ben are both 2 sides of the same coin, Ben just won out in the end previously is all it needs to be thats motivating things. I doubt either Widmore of Ben truly understand that the Island can bring someone back to life, I doubt they have seen that extent of power and are still realizing how unique Locke is.
I actually think its his doubt in himself that makes him the force for change that he is. Losers don't question themselves as much as winners is my theory.
Been a helluva good season so far hasn't it?
This time-travelling thing is starting to confuse me. :poly124:
Ben wants info on getting back to Island, Ben knows Locke (and by extension, Widmore) is his best bet of getting info, Locke provides info, Ben disposes of Locke, Ben is then told to recreate the crash with all the survivors and uses Locke in place of Christian (both characters with strong ties to Jacob).
And Slum I totally agree. Lost is best when each episode is dedicated mainly to one character. That's what the first two seasons were all about: telling stories about the lives of a different character each episode. On the other hand there are so many important characters now that it's probably hard for them to find the time to do that anymore. It's just the nature of a show that becomes continually more complicated with time. Locke is, and always has been, a special case. Same with Desmond (oh you can bet he's getting an episode soon).
As for as "who is the real bad guy" I think the answer is basically everyone. Even Locke has been a total dick at times. A lot of what he's done is very selfishly motivated. On the other hand they've pretty much turned him into Jesus so the answer may be basically everyone but Locke from now on.
Oh SHIT, I may have been right about the losties being part of dharma!
Update: Ok, I may only be partially correct
Good episode, I think we just got played again, with the statue. I'll be that never gets explained. My question now is, do they get killed by Ben and the others later on? Also, Daniel saw his love interest as a child? That's a little child molester creepy
wtf, no lost next week?
Now that they're part of Dharma, I'm thinking we'll get information about things on the island through them.
It was awesome to finally see the Anubis statue.
I'm starting to wonder more about Ben. I didn't post this last week because I didn't want to double post. But he killed Locke, maybe out of necessity? They needed to recreate the flight, and that meant a dead body in the plane. Hence, they only way Locke could save the island was by dying.
Add that to the fact that Ben talked about resurrection after that with Jack in the church. There seems to be some christian mythology in there, along with some Egyptian-type stuff, so maybe Locke couldn't commit suicide, because he would go to hell, and wouldn't be able to come back on the island?
whoah great call on the anubis ahnk tie-in. There is so much stuff I miss in these episodes. I'm so glad I found this thread.
Jacob has a lot of mixed meaning. And he is also known in the bible as the grandfather of Aaron. Jacob and Christian (who's body has gone missing on the island) have some kind of connection, and Jack's sister is Aaron's mother. So there must be some kind of relation there.
Also note that Christian has talked to a good deal of the important characters, and even set some events in motion. He basically talked Sawyer into being a man and shooting that guy.
Jacob is also stuck in limbo. That character tonight, Horace, has been on the show before. He's dead, stuck in limbo, in a infinite loop of building Jacob's cabin. This is very similar to Jacob's ladder. Jacob also has a son named Benjamin.
So Ben -may be related to Jack and Claire.
A lot of the characters on the show are named after people who have done something very similar to their roles on the show. Look it up on Lostpedia. There are real life people who have written books about things that are happening in LOST.
Lots of clues out there, it's just hard to put them all together.
Check out the reference with Alpert:
There are so many Jacob references in his trivia section that all tie into the events of the show.
So..
Another question I had if the losties are now part of Dharma in 1977, what year did Ben kill them all? I'm pretty sure in 1977 Ben should be about 20 so the Dharma folks would be dead already.
Also Horrace has another wife Olivia Goodspeed, not Amy from last nights episode who was Ben's teacher, and was also there shortly after Ben was born.
damnit lost..
I find myself wondering which of the cast is Jacob, I often wonder if its going to be Jack because of the family tie ins, but last night i wondered if it would be Sawyer, who swore to wait for Locke....
Is Long haired guy (That just became a father in the last episode)...
Is that Toombs
He was Percy, the shit eating assface on the Green Mile! Thought I recognized him! Dang he's gained some weight.
http://lost.cubit.net/archives/2009/03/5x08-the-egyptian-god-anubis.php
Anyway, definitely the statue is Anubis, which makes you go back to wondering if this is a purgatory type of arrangement. Or at least, it's symbolic of determine good and evil.
They are definitely pushing the connection to Africa/Egypt. The island being part of the underworld/purgatory/limbo would explain quite a bit. Why dead people come back to life.
Maybe its hasn't always been a one way trip off the island. Maybe it was used to port sick, dying, dead people to the island/underworld. And the people being ported to the island after a while figured out a way to get back. Then the port to the island was lost.
I'd really like to know how the sub comes and goes and how Darma (and the Black Rock for that matter) found the island...
I'm actually curious if the location of the island is exactly opposite side of the globe from the point in Tunisia.
Jesus talk about a blast from the past!
Cool points during the episode:
- Seeing the plans for the station they find first (was that he pearl? Can't remember which is which)
- The plane crash landing (especially seeing them cut through the mountains)
- Christian walking out and showing Sun a picture of Jin in the dharma photo
- When Jack asks Sawyer, "You know these people all die, right?"
- Sun knocking Ben out
- Seeing the young Ben
I'm already disliking this new guy. "Maybe you need new charts?" Yeah, like it's the pilots fault that he doesn't know where the island is (although he did at one time
Poor Frank! Hah. If I were him I'd have been crapping myself from the moment I saw all the losties on the plane. The guy was just trying to fly a plane! haha.
What's more interesting though, is that those that landed on the plane are in a completely different timeline than those who got pulled out in the time bubble. It looks like those that landed are in a future timeline, as newotherton is rather worn down and delapidated. It will be interesting to see the effects in their time from what happens in Sawyer's timeline. Interesting indeed.
What I'd like to know is, if the time skipping stopped 3 years ago when Sawyer & Co joined Dharma, how the hell did the time bubble "pull" the losties out of the plane as they flew over? I thought that shit was fixed! And why didn't it take Sun? That's so strange.
I don't think all the others are going to die in the pit anymore by ben. Seeing the new 'otherton' as vassago put it makes me think that everything is going to be different. It has to be. The other's houses weren't fucked up in all the rest of the show like they are now, unless it just happened in those past 3 years (which is completely possible)..
also, is it just me, or where is everyone else they went back to the island trying to save?
I'm hoping they are both smoke monster fodder.
Didn't take Ben either, I assume that's why he's in rush. To get back to the Island and ask Jacob why he's been cast aside. Sun probably wasn't taken because it interferes with 1977's Jin's fate, which might be more important to the island than we currently know.
And I know we saw that pit with all the dead dharma dudes in it...but I would say there is a twist there too. I just get that feeling. Although we do know Horace is dead. Pity, I like him.
I don't think they'll be able to change the timeline though. Maybe they'll have the heads up and avoid the gassing though.
I can't remember now. Did Desmond end up on the plane? If so, where is he now? I'm curious to see what happens with Sayid, since it appears that they 'return' him to the hostiles.
They're needed in the past so they can do exactly what has been done. We're just witnessing a linear time line through their eyes.
unless that's how he knows so much about all of them initially...
yeah i don't know, but I half feel that part of this is about 'breaking the pattern'
or hell, maybe they all die with dharma and that's the end of the show XD
Well, not really. Faraday told Sawyer you can't change what's already happened, and then proceeded to knock on the door and tell Desmond to find his mother in the future, and then all of a sudden in present day Desmond remembered and had to find Faraday's mother. So they can change time, but seems like Desmond is an anomaly.
yea and Desmond becoming the anamoly probably happened waay back when they didnt enter the numbers. Then a white light happened and Desmond is found running naked through the jungle.
Faraday has obviously turned into the crazy dude that the redhead was affraid of as a kid. So he had an opportunity to change the past by NOT telling her she was going to die, but he probably didn't or won't.
The more I watch the show the less interested I am about the actual characters themselves and more about the instances of plot that span all 3 times. (The Statue, the Smoke Monster, Jack's Father, Locke's ressurection, Richard Alpert). The character interactions now between Jack-Kate-Saywer-Juliet are so secondary in my mind, I almost find it boring. Just a thought anyways. The end of this season is coming up pretty fast.
Desmond is an anomaly, but I still think that Faraday didn't break any time rules in telling him to find his mom.
Very true Rory.
Never thought of that.
I first saw him interrogate Mark Wahlberg in Three Kings.
The real Sa