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recent thoughts about 9/11

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polycounter lvl 17
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hawken polycounter lvl 17
What do you think of these?:


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6621056445411384184&q="loose+change+Part+1"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7721485671999456333&q="loose+change+Part+2"

(I find them interesting and have summised) As the majority suspect, 9/11 was a farce. Theres a mountain of websites that go through the facts step by step, pointing out these main facts:

1. The twin towers were rigged to be demolished a few weeks before 9/11. This was carried out by forcing companies to not enter the buildings by cutting off the power supplies under the excuse of "maintenance". More exactly: "we're updating the internet lines". The security firm for the WTC was run by bushes cousin. The cameras of the WTC were shut off on 9/11... the third building also collapsed, of it's own accord.

2. Clear photographic evidence of both jets having rocket launchers on their under bellies. Additional photographic evidence of these rockets being fired moments before impact.

3. Clear photographic evidence of the demolition triggers being set off before and during the collapse (registering 2 on the Richter scale). Additional testimonies from firemen about the lobbies of the buildings, actually seeing damage these charges made.

4. Titanium and Iron melt at a much higher temperature than airliner fuel.

5. most of the airliner fuel burnt up in the air on the second impact, as that huge fireball showed. So it would have been impossible to burn the building causing it to crumble to the ground.

6. previous skyscraper fires rage for days and the buildings don't fall.

7. the pentagon crash was a hole and photographic evidence shows the remains are not from a commercial liner. Nor the impact shape. Further evidence that this was the only reinforced area of the pentagon and commercial liners crumble on impact, not punch through many feet of steel.

8. the 9/11 investigation was very late, evidence was omitted, no one was held accountable.

9. many of the terrorists killed in the crashes are still alive and well.

10. the phone calls from the planes were faked. This is indisputable because it's not possible to call on your mobile from a plane at 36 thousand feet.

11. the usama video is fake. He wears a gold ring and watch, which are forbidden by his own religion. Also he is a lefty, but in the video hes using his right hand to write etc.



I guess what we need to think about is; who is responsible? Are there any steps being taken to prosecute the organisers of this lie? How long will it take? Is bush directly connected or is this something larger and unimaginable?

Dreafully; what really happened to all of these people that were on the real flights?

I for one feel like I've been lied to. I'm sure this is the general consensus. How we can base two wars on ONE PASSPORT that some how miraculously survived TITANUIM melting fires, and floated into the hands of an FBI agent at ground zero... is somewhat beyond belief.

Replies

  • Jeremy Lindstrom
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    Jeremy Lindstrom polycounter lvl 17
    I highly doubt this post will remain..

    Anyhow, I hightly suspect your majority is a minority. I wouldn't put it past the government to do such a thing but I believe the amount of reaching you are doing in coming up with some of those conclusions is just that a reach.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 17
    watch these videos, even turn off the sound so you can't hear them talk (sometimes they do tend to sound a bit obsessive or presumptious) but you can visually see the charges going off! And the rockets!

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6621056445411384184&q="loose+change+Part+1"

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7721485671999456333&q="loose+change+Part+2"
  • Kevin Johnstone
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    Kevin Johnstone polycounter lvl 16
    Maybe the building is actually still there and cleverly concealed by a hologram technology that the bush family
    engineered alongside bin laden and his families wealth so they could hide a secret army of flying monkeys that will
    attack washington if we try to vote bush out of power?


    I think I will wait to watch Oliver Stone's version, I expect it to be better researched.

    r.
  • r13
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    r13 founder
    as an architect as well, i find your facts about the buildings involved and their strengths and weaknesses to be ill informed guess work at best. I also find this thread has the potential to explode into a flame war given the history of the boards. If it goes there, it will be shut down immediately. Play nice, please.
  • Irritant
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 16
    Nah, r13, I don't think it can explode into a flame war - hawken's "facts" are just so absurd and skewed, there's not even an argument there.

    People will always find blame even where none exists.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 17
    sorry I wasn't going into detail smile.gif

    I was hoping that everyone has done thier own bit of research instead of listening to the offical story (which is as good as fiction)
  • Jeremy Lindstrom
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    Jeremy Lindstrom polycounter lvl 17
    yes, lets trust a biased and possibly altered newsclip of the event.. laugh.gif
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 16
    Hawken: Well, actually, you can make a phone call from a plane. Some planes even have on-board payphones provided. How about you do some research of your own?

    Also, where are these dead terrorists who you say are alive and well? I guess you've got some "irrefutable photographic evidence" for that, too. And hey, photos can be altered, you know. You can usually discover an alteration to a photo, but even the experts take a while to do this.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    I believe some of the fiction may be fact. We want to believe our government tells us everything, and we believe we have a right to know. The government never told us of the german sub destined to destroy New York shortly after germany's surrender, and how close it came. So it'll most likely be 2051 before we uncover some of the truth behind the events surrounding Sept. 11...and view it from an unbiased perspective.

    I recently stumbled upon a website loaded with 911 footage, many of which I hadn't seen before. Some from firemen within the buildings. A few cameras captured footage of a small object flashing across the screen just as the 2nd jet collided. All different angles, all capturing the same object racing at the same speed at the same moment. Like a missle.

    It's amazing to look back on that day, watching it unfold, and remembering all the events that have led to today. Iraq wasn't a buzzword then. Bin laden is still alive. America continues to raise the debt ratio, and many here at home are still suffering.

    Putting all these pieces together, it simply doesn't make sense. Something big is taking place, and we're being misled. It's anyone's guess, and any guess can easily be considered a conspiracy theory.
  • Vermeulen
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    Vermeulen polycounter lvl 17
    The biggest problem I have with these insane theorys, is not that I think people in the government are not evil enough and have morality against this sort of thing, such as just some common guy working in an office, is that it would require such a massive amount of people working on the project. With such a massive amount of people doing something like this, there is no way in hell they could keep it secret.

    Every single major event has a conspiracy theory. Every single major death has a conspiracy theory. Cobain was murdered, elvis was picked up by aliens, Jim Morrison is still alive, JFK bullshit, tupac is still alive, etc
  • Jeremy Lindstrom
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    Jeremy Lindstrom polycounter lvl 17
    I heard Tupac engineered 9/11.. I wonder if you also believe Bush rigged the levies in New Orleans to kill the black man.. confused.gif
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 17
    indipendant theories have their place in disputing that of official statements. Should we always follow blindly?

    The thing that worries me is that it's not just a few people who trust these points outlined above, it's thousands of websites, all trying to prove the same thing. It's less of a conspiracy and more of a "WTF happened here then?"

    Dekard: no one is asking you to lock this thread, lets talk about it point by point instead of stirring. Also, I'm not sure about some of these things, until I saw these videos.
  • Jeremy Lindstrom
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    Jeremy Lindstrom polycounter lvl 17
    It would be more believable if the conspiracy theorists didn't spin the pendulum so far in the exact opposite direction. There's room for truth, and no the media nor the government are not really the upfront folks telling us the real stories, but point for point deductions you posted above are also just as ludicrous as 19 hijackers taking planes and running them into buildings..

    Why couldn't it be a more sane plot, of 19 hijackers hired by the government to fly the planes into the buildings or two massive truck bombs... while the towers were rigged.. it's just that way with anything, there's an equal/opposite reaction.. some celeb flashes a boob on tv, we can't even show buttcracks on tv...

    There are alot of plausible explanations on the plate on how the government may have had a hand in the tragedies of 9/11, but those aren't the most sane ones.. The truth unfortunately usually lies somewhere in the grey middle area and you have to find that yourself as it's not something people turn into, nor get paid to show.

    Thomas Jefferson said: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    hawken: you shouldn't post these theories as if they were fact. You're only fueling the fire of those readily waiting to shout "get your facts straight"! Not to mention posts that only intend to derail the topic with nonsense. Some of us are more willing to question what we're told are "facts" from "respectable" sources. All sides must be considered. Like Bush's lumber company. I also find it hard to believe it's possible to make a cellphone call in a plane, when I often have trouble making calls from my own home. But it's possible.

    My only concern is that there is in fact evidence of situations that have no clear explanation.
  • Fuse
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    Fuse polycounter lvl 14
    it's a conspiracy i tells ya !

    seriously thought people need to focus on the problems at hand

    edit: ok so out of curiousity i watched the videos, while some of it smelled like bullshit certain evidence was quite interesting, i suggest you guys to watch it just out of interest.
  • AstroZombie
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    AstroZombie polycounter lvl 15
    As much as I hate the present US government, I just don't buy that they could possibly be that evil. I mean, Cheney, maybe, but he couldn't have done this on his own wink.gif.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    [ QUOTE ]
    seriously thought people need to focus on the problems at hand

    [/ QUOTE ]

    pick one laugh.gif
  • Ninjas
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    Ninjas polycounter lvl 14
    Nobody can know anything about the past. If the government is covering something up, they are just as likely to be the ones posting crackpot theories as anyone, making it harder to tell what really is true.

    I didn't believe the WMD stuff for a second, and all I had to do was watch CNN and use my brain. The government is only interested in tricking 75% of people, and they don't care about the 25% that is educated and intelligent. After all, the press is happy to take government press releases and site them as 'high-level government sources', so the feds don't even have to worry about the ignorant masses being educated by the media.

    That is not to say I believe anything about 9/11. That isn't the point. The point is that I don't care, and there is no way to know for sure. People here know better than most that video can be faked, sources invented, etc.

    The real threat to the US is that we will fall behind in technology, and with the people coming out of highschool/college now, I really don't think we have much chance of staying on top. Right now people in Asia are making discoveries in stem cell research that could have easily been made by US researchers, if the americans were allowed to do their job. The current antics in government are going to come back to bite them in the ass no matter how many votes or jet fighters they have.
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 17
    Ok, I'm watching the video now and this is my point for point right now:
    First, that "flash" that he describes is a cloud of dust as the front of the plane impacts the cement pillars.

    Second, the "missile" underneith the plane, is just a shadow. He compares the poorly lit, bad quality image, to a well light undercarriage shot of another boeing jet. There is no defined shape of anything under that jet.

    Next, the flash again. The flash can be caused by the spark of metal hitting stone. When he goes back and forth by frames, you can see the plane is already hitting when the flash appears. Yet he states that the flash was first. Also, why would they fire a missile first anyways? What good would that do? You think the jet wouldn't be enough?

    As for the 'eye witness' accounts, there are always cases of people seeing something in correctly. Take for instance a hit and run. The police will ask witnesses what kind of car it is and one will say it was a red civic while another will say it was a gray jetta. It's easy to place in wtiness accounts that fit your needs.
  • ScoobyDoofus
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    ScoobyDoofus polycounter lvl 17
    I have made cell phone calls from a plane...
    So, I dont understand where that argument comes from.
    Conspiracy theories are to me, entertainment. Therefore I only read up on ones concerning aliens, bigfoot, top secret military aircraft & Area 51.

    So. While the videos Hawken linked may have some compelling data, and I'll watch them, I am no more convinced by their story than I am by the story handed me by my Government.
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 16
    hawken: Bear in mind with your "don't believe stuff you've been fed by 'the man'" argument ... you're just blindly accepting these counter-arguments and conspiracy theories without questioning them yourself. You're just blindly accepting the "other side", as it were.
    The problem is it's incredibly hard to get any objective evidence unless you were actually there yourself, filming everything with a videocamera or something of that nature. All the opinions on the internet don't add up to anything... just saying stuff like "you can't make phone calls from a plane, OMG the phone calls were bogus!" is total mindlessness on your part - evidently you CAN make phone calls from a plane (which, if you'd actually attempted to do some independent research, you'd know), so that point's out the window straight away... which instantly throws all your other so-called "facts" into doubt.

    As soon as you have a lot of solid information and true facts backing up your wild assertions, I might start to take heed.
  • KDR_11k
    The dangers of propaganda are that by itself, propaganda sounds conclusive. Only by introducing more sources and knowledge can you find the flaws in propaganda.
  • Scott Ruggels
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    Scott Ruggels polycounter lvl 13
    This is too far fetched. The same sort of eyball tricks about "missile launchers' are going on, as wit "The Face" on Mars. people with a fervent belief in vast comspiracies, literally chasing shadows as "proof". Believing in conspiracies is comforting, because it means there is some order and direction in the univoerse, but that's not true. Most everything is random, and Yes, 17 Saudis could have done this while most people napped through their jobs and watched CNN about the missing Congressman's Intern. The universe is a random and uncaring place.

    Scott
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 17
    The argument that the building was imploded. "People who have seen a building imploded" should ALSO know that when they implode a building, they take out all the glass on the levels where the detonations will be going off. Why? Because the glass would come exploding outwards. If there were explosions on the 10th and 15th floor, why is there no glass exploding out on the lower levels?
    He also fails to mention the way the floors are constructed when he's making his argument about the building elements. He mentions the steel and concrete amound, but doesn't mention that each floor is held by plates. These plates have been discussed since 9/11 and have been stated as the cause of the collapse. These plates melted under the heat of the fire. That's also why OTHER building havent' collapsed after being on fire for 17 hours. They are constructed differently.

    In addition, the fuel is not all burnt up in that cloud you see at impact. That is the fire and smoke being forced out with the air pressurized by the planes impact.

    The only thing that holds any water in this, and held water in the past was the Pentagon. I had thought that it may have been a missile that was targeted for the plane that crashed in PA, but it malfunctioned and hit the Pentagon. But even then, it would have been a stretch.
    Again though, he wants to take witness accounts to prove his earlier point about the jet's symbols, yet he proves how inconsistant eye witness reports can be when he refers to the pentagon.
  • Fuse
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    Fuse polycounter lvl 14
    yeh the pentagon part really got my attention
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 17
    btw, the debris from the tower was NOT transported and melted down in another country. There was a location, I believe in New Jersey, where all debris was taken and people were going through the debris to look for personal items to identify potential victims and to investigate what caused the structural failure.
  • Mark Dygert
    Wow some blury internet mockumentry footage comes out and all of a sudden I totally believe that terrorist are made up by the american government to jack up the prices of gas.
    [ QUOTE ]

    "whoa, whoa whao back up did you see that, yeah that right there, missles on the bottom of the aircraft"

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No I didn't see it, the footage is crap and your compression rate is too low to see anything. I think I see gremlins on the wings ripping wiring out, yes I SEE THEM CLEARLY!
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 17
    "I think I see gremlins on the wings ripping wiring out, yes I SEE THEM CLEARLY!"

    LOL, was William Shatner on that plane? wink.gif
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 13
    hawken, are you really saying that you believe in these things? Or was that a joke....

    shiiiit. I could make a documentary of how our last pope personally worshipped satan for the last 20 years and has hid a nuclear device in osama's underpants if I wanted to. Do you actually think any of their "facts" are backed up? Is there anyone here who couldn't composite anything they wanted into the 9/11 footage?
  • sonic
    [ QUOTE ]
    I heard Tupac engineered 9/11.. I wonder if you also believe Bush rigged the levies in New Orleans to kill the black man.. confused.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    hahahahah

    I thought that was hilarious smile.gif

    I used to think all these conspiracies could possibly be true, then I realised like someone else had just mentioned, it would take an ASSLOAD of people to organize this project, and I highly doubt it would stay this "underground".
  • JKMakowka
    [ QUOTE ]

    11. the usama video is fake. He wears a gold ring and watch, which are forbidden by his own religion. Also he is a lefty, but in the video hes using his right hand to write etc.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not going to comment on it in general (it a bit more complicated than what either the gouvernment or this says), but this 'fact' stikes me as a bit strange.
    Why would one believe that all of 9/11 was set up and yet the same time believe they had to fake a Osama video, if they could just get the real guy (which is another conspiracy theory) tongue.gif
  • KeyserSoze
    [ QUOTE ]
    Next, the flash again. The flash can be caused by the spark of metal hitting stone. When he goes back and forth by frames, you can see the plane is already hitting when the flash appears. Yet he states that the flash was first. Also, why would they fire a missile first anyways? What good would that do? You think the jet wouldn't be enough?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    In the high resolution version of the video you can clearly see the flash when the nose of the jet is about 10 feet from even touching the building. The version that Hawken posted is of a horrible quality and compression, which is why the plane just appears to be a blur. Of course, I imagine such a large object traveling upwards of 300 MPH is going to generate a serious pocket of air in front of the nose, which is likely the cause of the "flash" before impact.

    Any accusations that the government may have been involved, or that they may have known what was going to happen and intentionally allowed it to happen, are going to immediately be disregarded as "wild conspiracy theories." But they may not be as far-fetched as you think; in the past, the US government has drawn up official plans to carry out violent acts of terrorism against US citizens in order to incite a war. The plans were eventually rejected, thank god, but before they were rejected they were approved by all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Something to think about.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662
  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 13
    Hawken is right, well done bro. I never agreed with you but i damn do now.

    The planes were remote controled, a missile was used, the towers were rigged to fall on cue when the planes struck them, no plane hit the pentagon.

    If your a starter do like me and many others conspiracy nuts, and LURK for 1 - 2 - 3 years over at

    http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1821

    the truth is that the U.S attacked the U.S on 911
  • Dukester
    the only truth here is that some of you want it to be true so bad you can taste it!
  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 13
    [ QUOTE ]
    the only truth here is that some of you want it to be true so bad you can taste it!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There are also flying monkeys on the moon. Can you taste that ?





    Link to a collection 911 videos with better compression

    http://212.87.68.69/phpwebsite/index.php...S_Document_id=1
  • Ninjas
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    Ninjas polycounter lvl 14
    That abc news story is great. Now just imagine if you had had a republican in office.
  • AstroZombie
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    AstroZombie polycounter lvl 15
    So, what about all the people that died on the flights that never crashed into the WTC or the Pentagon? What happened to them? Were they all in on the conspiracy and are now living comfortably in Cuba?
  • pogonip
    I personally think it's much more believable that certain people at very high levels in the Goverment looked past a growing plot by known Al Quada agents to attack a major US land mark and I think they also knew they had been taken flying lessons . I personally think those people allowed 9/11 to happen probebly not knowing how many people would be killed . It's well known that a lot of top military guys and goverment people such as top FBI brass miss there coldwar budgets and continues down sizing . This was an oppertunity to get there big budgets back and even to push Homeland security laws though easily . Hawken if Bush and his cronies could organize what you are saying they could have also planeted some kind of Nuclear arms progam for Inspectors to find and justify the war .

    Instead they made a lot of accusations and then pumped people up for war and attacked and not a single one of there accusations was true . My personal feeling at this point is that the Goverment is riddled with unqualified people such as the moron who was running Fema who don't get along and play power games . Goverment people allowed the terrorists to do what they did but I really don't think they were involved ...to many whistle blowers .
  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 13
    Exatly my thoughts Pogonig, well articulated.

    Some of you have been fooled.

    For more info:

    http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewforum.php?f=1



    911.gif
  • sonic
    [ QUOTE ]
    But they may not be as far-fetched as you think; in the past, the US government has drawn up official plans to carry out violent acts of terrorism against US citizens in order to incite a war. The plans were eventually rejected, thank god, but before they were rejected they were approved by all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Something to think about.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Could you please post some evidence on this? Sounds interesting to me.
  • Ninjas
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    Ninjas polycounter lvl 14
    Duh dude. Click on the link
  • sonic
    hahahah, i lol'd when i saw that forum peanut and saw this sig-
    Unmask.jpg

    and right above he says he's certain it was the CIA who blew some junk up

    w00t
  • sonic
    [ QUOTE ]
    Duh dude. Click on the link

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Whoops, didnt see the link somehow

    Thanks
  • motives
    [ QUOTE ]
    So, what about all the people that died on the flights that never crashed into the WTC or the Pentagon? What happened to them? Were they all in on the conspiracy and are now living comfortably in Cuba?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    yea, watching the movie i wondered about this as well.. What happened to them? not explained i guess..

    I dont care much for the "planes shootin missiles" ideas but i really think the pentagon crash is odd. I mean what the.. Where is the godamn plane? its such a small hole smile.gif

    I need a "911wasnotalie" site so i can get some info from both sides of the story hehe
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 14
    This thread makes me angry!

    There are two n's in "government", and "there" is not possessive
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    this is turning into a circus.

    Looking at history, is it possible that the US government could have some part in the cause of the attacks?
    Is it possible for this adminstration to deceive its people?
    Would this government use a national tragedy to push its own agenda?
    Would they ever use corporations to influence top media outlets?
    Would the government ever overtake a rival country in order to place obedient leadship in its place?
    Would the government ever break international law to ensure stability of its economy and resources?

    Can you answer "no" to these questions with 100% confidence that you're correct? Those are the questions that provoke the "what if's". Yes, many of the theories are bullshit, and most likely 100% wrong. Perhaps it's just enough nonsense to distract of from ever searching for the truth. Just like anything you'll hear on fox news. Two extremes that lead to no solutions.

    Sadly, the object I mentioned in my first post of this thread, isn't the missle pointed out from that website. I'm surprised they've said nothing about it.
  • peanut™
  • TNSLB
    I lover you, Rick.
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 14
    Shhh! Harl'll find out!
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