The government stages this huge conspiracy to murder thousands of US citizens and military personnel in order to justify a war with our long hated arch nemesis, Afghanistan.
Then we go to war with Iraq based on their weapons of mass destruction, yet Bush is unable to roll one truck full of missiles into some abandoned Iraqi depot to prove that there really were WMDs?
Yeah, I guess that would be much more difficult than staging the 9/11 operation without anyone finding out.
[ QUOTE ]
The government stages this huge conspiracy to murder thousands of US citizens and military personnel in order to justify a war with our long hated arch nemesis, Afghanistan.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not so far-fetched. Did you check out the link I posted earlier? In the past, the government has drawn up plans to do exactly what you just described, only it was to incite a war against Cuba.
You know. There have been a couple of Presidents that I didn't vote for. Didn't like them.
There have never been any Presidents of the US that I voted for or against that I would accuse of treason just because I don't like the fact they are in office. Still, that is what is going on here.
I find a lot of this speculation extremely offensive, not to mention stupid.
Yeah Keyser, some crazy sh!t was going on in the 50s and 60s, due to the insane fear that communists were going to take over the US at any given second.
Communication and political infighting between the parties, as well as a far more aggressive media make these crazy conspiracies very unlikely in this age. Plus terrorist will not take over the US, due to the fact that they like blowing themselves up so much.
The truth is that the government doesn't need a 9/11 to justify anything. All you have to do is say "I am the president, and my sources tell me that X country is a threat for ___________ reason." The poorly educated/gullible public jumps on board, and rah rah, we go to war.
Politicians know how stupid the US public is. Why go through this huge and risky conspiracy, when you could just tell a simple lie to them to get them on board? And even if you are caught in a lie, you just spin spin spin and misdirect them. They won't catch on until you are out of office. No skin off their noses. Yet if they engineered mass murder, they'd be getting lethal injection. Why risk it?
LOL @ beaver theory.
but honestly, i cant see a freaking missile. as hard as i try to find it. the thing thats visible on the video could be just about anything.
Hawken: I just noticed another of your original points is also full of crap. Airliner fuel burns at over 1700 degrees Celsius. The melting point of Iron is around 1500 degrees Celsius. The melting point of Titanium is about 1650 degrees.
Come on, man, let's see some actual facts here rather than lame conjecture!
[ QUOTE ]
Come on, man, let's see some actual facts here rather than lame conjecture!
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, come now MoP. Its not hard to see what is going on in his mind, nor how it got there. He refused to swallow what was handed to him by the US media...because of a personal bias, and instead swallowed whatever was handed to him by whomever opposed this imaginary enemy.
everyone is full of shit can we leave it at that, nobody knows the full truth except the people who headed the thing, whether they be al quaeda or the illuminati
[ QUOTE ]
Hawken: I just noticed another of your original points is also full of crap
[/ QUOTE ]
Calling someone full of "crap" because of his opinion or belief is low IMO, now if i had mod status and say that whouldn't that be lovely and rose smelling ?
peanut, i would say that when someone spews out itemized "opinions" or "beliefs" as facts then they are full of...something.
I do think a lot of this is misguided information, but i dont think it's anything new to 911. I'm sure any big event in history had it's share of wild conspiracy theories it's just that the internet gives all of these a louder voice.
What most conspiracy theorists tend to do is be very critical of the original story but be very accepting and short sighted about theories. Mop proved hawken wrong by simply doing a few minutes of real research, something many conspiracy theorists do not do.
peanut: I didn't say hawken himself was full of crap. However, a number of the points in his original post are full of crap.
If I said "Iron melts at 20 degrees Celsius, that's a fact" ... then it'd be fair to say that my statement was full of crap. This is because my statement is a lie.
Some of hawken's statements are similarly untrue. Therefore they are full of crap.
Calm down peanut, he was refuting the comment about the jet fuel not burning hot enough to destroy the metal. It's a matter of fact, not opinion.
That being said, I don't believe MOP's post is entirely accurate. Jet fuel only gets that hot when compressed air is being inducted into the combustion chamber of a turbine engine. Jet fuel burning in the open air (uncompressed) doesn't get nearly that hot; if I remember correctly, it burns at around 600 degrees Celsius.
KeyserSoze is entirely correct. Kerosene only burns at 1700 Celsius inside the actual turbine. I think it's closer to 1000 degrees Celsius in air.
However, this does not undermine my point that most of hawken's (and the video-maker-guy, I assume this is his pet project) conspiracy theory points are, to coin a phrase, full of crap
(Edit: Also, peanut, go and do something useful. Seriously, I'd estimate at least 90% of your posts on polycount are either aggravating, spam or just general dumbness. I don't think I've ever seen you post any artwork, or help people out. Mainly you seem to bitch about stuff. Go and do something constructive, instead of deconstructive.)
Well, tedious as it was, I watched through most of the videos and links here in this thread out of sheer curiosity. Good to see they got their music credits in early in a video about such a major catastrophe.
Anyhoo, I gotta say, I find most of this conspiracy theory evidence tenuous at best, and his tone in the videos distinctly annoying. He's so pleased with himself his voice is almost breaking at times.
All the 'explosions' that proceed down the towers an instant before it collapses? Christ. Who the hell knows what happens internally when a building of that size collapses? A far bigger debris ball and explosion is probably going on internally than is visible on the outside, so those little explosions further down the collapse are probably just that.
And theres some stuff on websites there about white flashes streaking alongside the planes? Shit, please tell me they're not talking about what is clearly a huge fricking hi-light glint. It's the sun you see, it tends to have that effect on metallic objects on a sunny day.
Only one thing made me scratch my head. And that was the video footage of Bin Laden. It's clearly not him. His facical dimensions are totally wrong. Anyone can see that. So I don't know where this video came from, nor even when it was shown on national TV. I distinctly remember different footage of Bin Laden confessing to 9/11 that didn't look like this stuff. So I dunno what these guys are up to there.
glad we're still scrutinizing websites and bashing opinions.
so are we ready to discuss anthrax? you guys remember the anthrax scare that seemed to coincide, right? no arrests have been made. the investigation growing cold 4 years later. the number of FBI on the case growing smaller. possible links to CIA involved. sampled evidence leads to US military labs as the source of the bateria. Yet the letters were written as if to frame middle-eastern Arabs. hmmm. should we be concern that the US military is currently purchasing large amounts of anthrax?
what if Israel was involved, in an attempt to frame the Arab nations?
[ QUOTE ]
glad we're still scrutinizing websites and bashing opinions.
[/ QUOTE ]
ok...so if someone posts a conspiracy theory you have to understand that they are -setting themselves up- for scrutinization and bashing because that's what they're doing in the first place...
Maybe kerosene fire cannot melt steel but it's not like the WTC was composed of only steel and titanium, there were loads of flammable objects inside that could provide a hotter fire.
As for the missile, if it really was a missile that blast would have done damage to the plane as well.
not to involve this things called "logic" but if there were missle launchers on the bottom of the planes how did they get there? they would have to be installed on the ground so wouldn't the maintence crews at the airports have seen something unsual? how long were the planes on the ground before their last flights? can't people see the airplanes they are about to board at the airport? couldn't people have seen if there was anything unusual? what about security cameras at these airports?
that supposed missle flash is only 1 frame in that gif that was posted. now i haven't watched the actual videos, since i'm on a modem, but if it is only 1 frame in that too then it could be easily faked. has anyone compared this guy's videos to the original footage as was it shown on all news channels?
in addition how can some the same people who proclaim Bush is an idiot yet claim he orchestrated the event of 9-11? especially in such a short time frame? was he innaugurated into office only a few months before? i mean the man has his faults but seriously everything that goes wrong is not his fault *coughNewOrleanslevees*. bah now you people are making me defend Bush!
Asherr: I don't think anyone believes Bush thought that up. He has advisors for most things.
Also, it took Hitler one month to set up a conspiracy and fake a terrorist attack on the Reichstag, which he then used to further his agenda.
What I still don't get is why those hijackers didn't just get a job at a flight agency as pilots and crashed the planes they were piloting instead of hijacking another plane. I'm sure the security checks on a pilot are much weaker than those on a passenger. They could even get some people into the security team so they'd get better weapons on board.
[ QUOTE ]
not to involve this things called "logic" but if there were missle launchers on the bottom of the planes how did they get there? they would have to be installed on the ground so wouldn't the maintence crews at the airports have seen something unsual? how long were the planes on the ground before their last flights? can't people see the airplanes they are about to board at the airport? couldn't people have seen if there was anything unusual? what about security cameras at these airports?
[/ QUOTE ]
The claim is that it wasn't an airliner at all, but rather a militarized version of the 767 (an E-8C, note the cylindrical pertrusion on the underbelly). Of course, this does nothing to explain what happened to the real flight 11 and flight 175.
[ QUOTE ]
that supposed missle flash is only 1 frame in that gif that was posted. now i haven't watched the actual videos, since i'm on a modem, but if it is only 1 frame in that too then it could be easily faked. has anyone compared this guy's videos to the original footage as was it shown on all news channels?
[/ QUOTE ]
There is footage of that same thing from four different angles, and they all show that flash (which would rule out it being a reflection or artifact or something). CNN sells a dvd that has all of this footage, and the flash is definitely there. As to what that flash is and what it indicates? Who knows, I don't think there is much footage available of jumbo jets flying into buildings, so it's hard to say if this is a common phenomena that occurs when a large object flies into a building at such a speed.
Lets just blame this all on the NWO/Freemason/Jesuit Hans Kolvenbach,Rothschild conspiracy of Elite power plays and get it over with ..oh wait that might be a trip down crazy town lane ..
Exactly! This guy you seem to claim is a bumbling moron has contrived an elaborate conspiracy and decieved the entire planet, all while maintaining emmense secrecy in a plot involving thousands of conspirators and millions or billions of dollars.
Frankly, I think at this point you're giving him/them (bush & our entire gov, your call) waaaayyyy too much credit.
Ack. My last reply to this thread. ARg! It's just too tempting! I cant help myself!
"The military industrial complex? Where is it? Have you seen it? Trust me, its not that complex..."
I dont think it was a conspiracy on the Bush's administrations part, instead the story of 9/11 is about their lack of action.
And afterwards they squandered all support advancing their political agenda in the name of fighting terrorist.
Although one thing i find a little odd is the part of the principle statement by Project for a New American Century "Rebuilding America's Defenses" which states that the only way that they can get public support for their policies is through "A catalyzing event like Pearl Harbor",alone by itself i wouldnt think to much of this but the fact that the principle members of this think tank are big players in the Bush Administration is something i find unusual.
One of my history teachers claimed the Navy let Pearl Harbor happen (withdrew most anti-aircraft defense and radar equipment from the area) to have a reason to enter WW2.
many sources say stuff like that about pearl harbor, also that they had parked only outdated battleships in the harbor that were of little value in the age of airplanes and submarines and were to be replaced anyway.
one can definitely imagine how an administration might appreciate, give indirect support to or simply fake attacks at their homeland to rise public support.
[ QUOTE ]
Of course, this does nothing to explain what happened to the real flight 11 and flight 175.
[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously the movie Millenium was a documentary, not fiction. They've been brought forward in time to help replenish the Earth's rapidly declining population. We should have suspected this from the beginning! The Future People have gone BEYOND rescueing plane crash victims, to actually orchestrating huge disasters! They got everyone from the planes, AND the buildings, and hell, probably New Orleans as well!
[ QUOTE ]
one can definitely imagine how an administration might appreciate, give indirect support to or simply fake attacks at their homeland to rise public support.
[/ QUOTE ]
or how a small group within the US, only loyal to an allie, would trick the US into pushing the allie's agenda. the administration my even allow it.
after the 911 attacks, Osama denied responsibility. if Osama was behind them, he would gladly tell the world. but he denied it, saying something about a "government within a government" in the US. even so, Osama was the first to point the finger at immediately after the attack. many top level news stations accused him without evidence, probably from government sources...setting into motion the events we have, or have overlooked, today. not giving us time to think for ourselves. Bush placed limitations on the 911 investigations soon after. So if he was truely the enemy, why is he still alive today?
of all the articles I've read about 911 in the 4 years since...hawken's link is the worst attempt at a theory I've seen. very amateur. I'm trying to make this discussion somewhat intelligent, and failing miserably. Too many children let themselves in.
"So if he was truely the enemy, why is he still alive today?"
That's truly the reason I'm pissed we're still in Iraq (or even went there in the first place). People ripped me for saying we shouldn't be going to Iraq, mainly because so many people were convinced there were WMDs there. I knew it was because Bush just wanted to smack around Saddam. We should have completed the task in Afghanistan. Bush did a good spin job to make the public believe that Saddam was connected to 9/11. I'm so tired of hearing, we need get them for 9/11! Iraq ISN'T connected. Our government has even admitted it now.
To be honest, I wouldn't be all that surprised if it was discovered that they misidentified some of the hijackers considering they identified them by watching grainy video. It was probably easy to connect faces with names they were already watching. But I do find it funny that people keep saying these guys are alive and visible in the media, yet even the BBC didn't bother posting updated images or video.
do we know if bin laden is alive and free, anyway? the "hunt" for him might serve as a fine excuse to continue certain operations in the middle east.
i do believe secret service agencies are way more stupid and incompetent than we people usually imagine them to be. yet it is somehow hard to believe that they weren't able to track down their declared worst enemy within so many years (they have been watching him since the clinton administration, right? they must have piles of information about his family, contacts, the places he used to frequent, ...) and with so much political pressure.
Replies
The government stages this huge conspiracy to murder thousands of US citizens and military personnel in order to justify a war with our long hated arch nemesis, Afghanistan.
Then we go to war with Iraq based on their weapons of mass destruction, yet Bush is unable to roll one truck full of missiles into some abandoned Iraqi depot to prove that there really were WMDs?
Yeah, I guess that would be much more difficult than staging the 9/11 operation without anyone finding out.
The government stages this huge conspiracy to murder thousands of US citizens and military personnel in order to justify a war with our long hated arch nemesis, Afghanistan.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not so far-fetched. Did you check out the link I posted earlier? In the past, the government has drawn up plans to do exactly what you just described, only it was to incite a war against Cuba.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662
^ there's the link incase you don't feel like searching for it.
and i have irreputable proof, right there ! see see ? look closely!!!!
http://img344.imageshack.us/my.php?image=19pg.jpg
There have never been any Presidents of the US that I voted for or against that I would accuse of treason just because I don't like the fact they are in office. Still, that is what is going on here.
I find a lot of this speculation extremely offensive, not to mention stupid.
Bye
Photo
Communication and political infighting between the parties, as well as a far more aggressive media make these crazy conspiracies very unlikely in this age. Plus terrorist will not take over the US, due to the fact that they like blowing themselves up so much.
The truth is that the government doesn't need a 9/11 to justify anything. All you have to do is say "I am the president, and my sources tell me that X country is a threat for ___________ reason." The poorly educated/gullible public jumps on board, and rah rah, we go to war.
Politicians know how stupid the US public is. Why go through this huge and risky conspiracy, when you could just tell a simple lie to them to get them on board? And even if you are caught in a lie, you just spin spin spin and misdirect them. They won't catch on until you are out of office. No skin off their noses. Yet if they engineered mass murder, they'd be getting lethal injection. Why risk it?
just so you know i am illustrating how silly this arguement is getting
but honestly, i cant see a freaking missile. as hard as i try to find it. the thing thats visible on the video could be just about anything.
Internetz Yay !
Come on, man, let's see some actual facts here rather than lame conjecture!
Come on, man, let's see some actual facts here rather than lame conjecture!
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, come now MoP. Its not hard to see what is going on in his mind, nor how it got there. He refused to swallow what was handed to him by the US media...because of a personal bias, and instead swallowed whatever was handed to him by whomever opposed this imaginary enemy.
Hawken: I just noticed another of your original points is also full of crap
[/ QUOTE ]
Calling someone full of "crap" because of his opinion or belief is low IMO, now if i had mod status and say that whouldn't that be lovely and rose smelling ?
I do think a lot of this is misguided information, but i dont think it's anything new to 911. I'm sure any big event in history had it's share of wild conspiracy theories it's just that the internet gives all of these a louder voice.
What most conspiracy theorists tend to do is be very critical of the original story but be very accepting and short sighted about theories. Mop proved hawken wrong by simply doing a few minutes of real research, something many conspiracy theorists do not do.
If I said "Iron melts at 20 degrees Celsius, that's a fact" ... then it'd be fair to say that my statement was full of crap. This is because my statement is a lie.
Some of hawken's statements are similarly untrue. Therefore they are full of crap.
That being said, I don't believe MOP's post is entirely accurate. Jet fuel only gets that hot when compressed air is being inducted into the combustion chamber of a turbine engine. Jet fuel burning in the open air (uncompressed) doesn't get nearly that hot; if I remember correctly, it burns at around 600 degrees Celsius.
However, this does not undermine my point that most of hawken's (and the video-maker-guy, I assume this is his pet project) conspiracy theory points are, to coin a phrase, full of crap
(Edit: Also, peanut, go and do something useful. Seriously, I'd estimate at least 90% of your posts on polycount are either aggravating, spam or just general dumbness. I don't think I've ever seen you post any artwork, or help people out. Mainly you seem to bitch about stuff. Go and do something constructive, instead of deconstructive.)
Regards
Did the rep. do it -No.
Did they benefit from it -Yes.
IT WAS ROSS PEROT!!
Anyhoo, I gotta say, I find most of this conspiracy theory evidence tenuous at best, and his tone in the videos distinctly annoying. He's so pleased with himself his voice is almost breaking at times.
All the 'explosions' that proceed down the towers an instant before it collapses? Christ. Who the hell knows what happens internally when a building of that size collapses? A far bigger debris ball and explosion is probably going on internally than is visible on the outside, so those little explosions further down the collapse are probably just that.
And theres some stuff on websites there about white flashes streaking alongside the planes? Shit, please tell me they're not talking about what is clearly a huge fricking hi-light glint. It's the sun you see, it tends to have that effect on metallic objects on a sunny day.
Only one thing made me scratch my head. And that was the video footage of Bin Laden. It's clearly not him. His facical dimensions are totally wrong. Anyone can see that. So I don't know where this video came from, nor even when it was shown on national TV. I distinctly remember different footage of Bin Laden confessing to 9/11 that didn't look like this stuff. So I dunno what these guys are up to there.
Move along now. Nuthin' to see here!
so are we ready to discuss anthrax? you guys remember the anthrax scare that seemed to coincide, right? no arrests have been made. the investigation growing cold 4 years later. the number of FBI on the case growing smaller. possible links to CIA involved. sampled evidence leads to US military labs as the source of the bateria. Yet the letters were written as if to frame middle-eastern Arabs. hmmm. should we be concern that the US military is currently purchasing large amounts of anthrax?
what if Israel was involved, in an attempt to frame the Arab nations?
glad we're still scrutinizing websites and bashing opinions.
[/ QUOTE ]
ok...so if someone posts a conspiracy theory you have to understand that they are -setting themselves up- for scrutinization and bashing because that's what they're doing in the first place...
As for the missile, if it really was a missile that blast would have done damage to the plane as well.
Seriously, the US is buying Anthrax in bulk, its not the virulent kind, but *I* suspect it could be used for a vaccine.
that supposed missle flash is only 1 frame in that gif that was posted. now i haven't watched the actual videos, since i'm on a modem, but if it is only 1 frame in that too then it could be easily faked. has anyone compared this guy's videos to the original footage as was it shown on all news channels?
in addition how can some the same people who proclaim Bush is an idiot yet claim he orchestrated the event of 9-11? especially in such a short time frame? was he innaugurated into office only a few months before? i mean the man has his faults but seriously everything that goes wrong is not his fault *coughNewOrleanslevees*. bah now you people are making me defend Bush!
Also, it took Hitler one month to set up a conspiracy and fake a terrorist attack on the Reichstag, which he then used to further his agenda.
What I still don't get is why those hijackers didn't just get a job at a flight agency as pilots and crashed the planes they were piloting instead of hijacking another plane. I'm sure the security checks on a pilot are much weaker than those on a passenger. They could even get some people into the security team so they'd get better weapons on board.
not to involve this things called "logic" but if there were missle launchers on the bottom of the planes how did they get there? they would have to be installed on the ground so wouldn't the maintence crews at the airports have seen something unsual? how long were the planes on the ground before their last flights? can't people see the airplanes they are about to board at the airport? couldn't people have seen if there was anything unusual? what about security cameras at these airports?
[/ QUOTE ]
The claim is that it wasn't an airliner at all, but rather a militarized version of the 767 (an E-8C, note the cylindrical pertrusion on the underbelly). Of course, this does nothing to explain what happened to the real flight 11 and flight 175.
[ QUOTE ]
that supposed missle flash is only 1 frame in that gif that was posted. now i haven't watched the actual videos, since i'm on a modem, but if it is only 1 frame in that too then it could be easily faked. has anyone compared this guy's videos to the original footage as was it shown on all news channels?
[/ QUOTE ]
There is footage of that same thing from four different angles, and they all show that flash (which would rule out it being a reflection or artifact or something). CNN sells a dvd that has all of this footage, and the flash is definitely there. As to what that flash is and what it indicates? Who knows, I don't think there is much footage available of jumbo jets flying into buildings, so it's hard to say if this is a common phenomena that occurs when a large object flies into a building at such a speed.
Frankly, I think at this point you're giving him/them (bush & our entire gov, your call) waaaayyyy too much credit.
Ack. My last reply to this thread. ARg! It's just too tempting! I cant help myself!
"The military industrial complex? Where is it? Have you seen it? Trust me, its not that complex..."
And afterwards they squandered all support advancing their political agenda in the name of fighting terrorist.
Although one thing i find a little odd is the part of the principle statement by Project for a New American Century "Rebuilding America's Defenses" which states that the only way that they can get public support for their policies is through "A catalyzing event like Pearl Harbor",alone by itself i wouldnt think to much of this but the fact that the principle members of this think tank are big players in the Bush Administration is something i find unusual.
one can definitely imagine how an administration might appreciate, give indirect support to or simply fake attacks at their homeland to rise public support.
Of course, this does nothing to explain what happened to the real flight 11 and flight 175.
[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously the movie Millenium was a documentary, not fiction. They've been brought forward in time to help replenish the Earth's rapidly declining population. We should have suspected this from the beginning! The Future People have gone BEYOND rescueing plane crash victims, to actually orchestrating huge disasters! They got everyone from the planes, AND the buildings, and hell, probably New Orleans as well!
one can definitely imagine how an administration might appreciate, give indirect support to or simply fake attacks at their homeland to rise public support.
[/ QUOTE ]
or how a small group within the US, only loyal to an allie, would trick the US into pushing the allie's agenda. the administration my even allow it.
after the 911 attacks, Osama denied responsibility. if Osama was behind them, he would gladly tell the world. but he denied it, saying something about a "government within a government" in the US. even so, Osama was the first to point the finger at immediately after the attack. many top level news stations accused him without evidence, probably from government sources...setting into motion the events we have, or have overlooked, today. not giving us time to think for ourselves. Bush placed limitations on the 911 investigations soon after. So if he was truely the enemy, why is he still alive today?
of all the articles I've read about 911 in the 4 years since...hawken's link is the worst attempt at a theory I've seen. very amateur. I'm trying to make this discussion somewhat intelligent, and failing miserably. Too many children let themselves in.
That's truly the reason I'm pissed we're still in Iraq (or even went there in the first place). People ripped me for saying we shouldn't be going to Iraq, mainly because so many people were convinced there were WMDs there. I knew it was because Bush just wanted to smack around Saddam. We should have completed the task in Afghanistan. Bush did a good spin job to make the public believe that Saddam was connected to 9/11. I'm so tired of hearing, we need get them for 9/11! Iraq ISN'T connected. Our government has even admitted it now.
many of the hijack suspects are also alive
i do believe secret service agencies are way more stupid and incompetent than we people usually imagine them to be. yet it is somehow hard to believe that they weren't able to track down their declared worst enemy within so many years (they have been watching him since the clinton administration, right? they must have piles of information about his family, contacts, the places he used to frequent, ...) and with so much political pressure.