Just in case we decide to pick teams later on, I'm Thomas Gerald Dunne, son of James Thomas Dunne, son of Patrick Joseph Dunne, the first of our line born in America. The rest are all buried in counties Clare, Galway and Mayo on the west coast of Ireland. I think this entitles me to hate the English, too, right? Of course, it also entitles me to eat all of the boiled potatoes and cabbage I want, and I'll generally take a pass on that...
*edit*
Amusingly, I made a compltely unrelated reference to the Norman conquest earlier today in Rick's spelling thread. If that arrow had missed good ol' Harold at the Battle of Hastings, maybe we're having a slightly different conversation, eh?
Aye, we're all mongrels m8, but the scottish are stereotyped and treated as such.
I don't live in the past, my resentment toward England is directed toward the establishment and is borne out of growing up in Scotland as a Scot and is nothing to do with my reading up on Celtic times. My reading up on the Celts and searching history has been borne out of my search to find out if things have always been like this and if things were different in the past, how did it go wrong.
For a Scot its very hard to grow up and not resent the English. It starts very early at school age when we got our summer holidays and there were no cartoons on until the last week of our holidays because thats when the English school kids would begin their summer holidays.
When in the classroom a scottish child was slapped or chided for using their own language ( which predates the English Language considerably) and replying 'Aye'.
As we get older we learn the reason for this is the new education being set down for us from England is designed to get rid of our old language and that when we come to career choosing age we will need to fit into the English ideals.
We then learn that although we are studying the same course to the same standard, the award given at the end of the course is called a different thing in Scotland than it is in England and in fact the scottish grade is regarded as lower that the English equivalent.
There are many many instances like this that puncuate growing up on Scotland as a Scot. I don't think that this can be understood without firsthand knowledge and the fact that Glasgow has as many racists blindly blaming the wrong englishmen as Londo has racists blindly stereotyping Scots as mirroring an image they themselves created, you are a little blind to that; with good reason, I expect I would react the same way.
Facts of the matter are that I reserve judgement upon everyone. The best friend I have is an Englishman. He lives still in Chester Le Street , I still phone him bi monthly after a couple of drams as he's one of the very few people I can actually 'talk' to.
The English Establishment has specifically set out to eradicate our culture, we've only recently started realising once more that this is something we should try to reinvigorate. We can only go so far though. Recently, before I left Scotland it was finally spelled out good and proper at the last elections that we have a playdo parliament in Scotland that doesnt truly have the power to make its own decisions or vote for independance.
The Stone of Destiny although returned in the hopes of quelling the spirit of rebellion that was stoked up again by , of all things, Braveheart; is still the property of the Queen and the Scottish public have to pay 2 pound to sneek a peek at it.
To be clear, no I dont blindly hate the English, but I've educated myself enough to understand who the real enemy is. Its not simply the english establishment, its the 2dimensional viewpoint that has been generated on both sides of the border by lack of information.
At the end of the day, as ashamed as I am that you have experienced racism at the hands of Scots. I can understand their hatred and though they have lashed out at the wrong person they have far more right to lash out than the English do.
You mentioned you were a lot more 'internationally minded' this days. I don't think you are. I am , well to a certain extent simply because I've lived in more countries for a longer period of time than you ( i think, though I am assuming here and that could cost me!!) and have married a woman from a non english speaking country.
I discovered that most of europe has the same viewpoint toward England that I do and that it is NOTHING to do with history and nothing to do with living in the past but simply to do with how England conducts itself today and what its attitude is to other people.
Almost every time the English football supporters go to another country there is violence, everytime the Scottish football supporters travel abroad there is no violence ( and as has been brought up here, we always bloody lose dont we?!).
In television coverage a few of the commentators have spent the last 2 decades refusing to referring to the Scottish as anything other than ' Jocks', what is the English equivalent for that Daz? I mean, people from Pakistan have the racial slur of Pakis, Black people have the racial slur of Niggers, Scottish people are caleld Jocks or Scots, what is the english equaivalent?
I'm saying that an to a certain extent, for an Englishman to complain to Scotsman about racism is amatuer league. The only slur I know of that applies to the English is Limey or Brits and thats not specific to England really.
I apologise for the long winded response. I have attempted to explain moreso this time without my previous posts passion and tried to be more logical and also not to recount the many historical episodes that mirror the modern day plight of the Scottish.
----
Using Messageboards for philosophical debates or debates about our ideological beliefs in general is kind of like using a shovel and a pickaxe to perform open heart surgery.
I don't see us reaching much of an accomadation as we are mostly on opposite sides of the fence and we have each had our racial slaps.
You should bear in mind though, England was the country that initiated all this and it has been England that has guided the development of the situation through the policy it has set down. From the sounds of things, you've been forced into the shoes of an outsider in Glasgow when you were not one, that experience should allow you to empathize my anger at Scotland being reduced to the role that it has been within Britain.
I think I am a romantic, I have a romantic turn of phrase but that is not the same as romantacizing the past. I understand more clearly than most what the average Scotsman can be like when angry and hurt. I know we are not who we once were, but I see England as responsible for that to a large degree.
The shame of it is that this situation has gone on so long that the Scottish History is more replete than most with betrayal. We're a nation that has betrayed itself so often that we are mostly ashamed to be who we are.
Its that sense of self loathing, of blaming ourselves for our situation that informed Rentons Speech in Trainspotting ( a speech I do NOT agree with btw).
So I like to think of myself as a realist. If I were just a romantic, I wouldnt be so much of an older misery guts would I?
I'm an English guy, living in Scotland, sharing a flat with 5 Scottish guys. I have never heard an Englishman bad-mouthing the Scots. I have heard Scotsmen refer to English people as "Fucking English Bastards"... and they seem to have no reason for it.
Granted, Rorshach, you have your history and you're evidently bitter about it, so you might be mildly justified in feeling angry - but far too many Scots seem to "hate" the English purely because they've grown up with it. If there's any reason for the modern Englishman to be pissed off at the modern Scotsman, it's because (in my experience), the Scottish have a vague, generalised and quite frankly unnecessary hatred of UK citizens south of the border.
After all, it's not like every English person is secretly plotting to bring down the Scottish nation.
I'm all for regional parliament and devolution in Scotland and the north-east of England. I agree that London seems to be distanced, lifestyle and attitude-wise, from the north of the UK.
Oh, and Rorshach, why are you indicating that calling the Scottish people "Scots" is a racial slur? That doesn't make much sense.
Bleh. I have more Scottish friends than English. My best friend of 10 years (more than half my life) is Scottish, as are most of his family. They have no problem with English people. I don't see why you should let ancient history dictate what you feel about nations today. I don't hate Norwegians because the Vikings invaded us 1000 years ago...
Hmm. James Bond, yes! Why not!
PS, I just realised, although I would love to meet and talk shop or whatever with you in real life, Rorshach, and I'm sure you're a great guy, I can't help but feel that after reading your posts here, you would be greeting me as an Englishman and therefore being biased against me. Now I'm sure that would not be the case, but I'm just letting you know that this is the impression you're giving off...
Mop: I did try to make it clear that I'm not against the English, I am against England. I am not basing my opinions on a book about the past, I am basing it upon my life up until this point.
I regret I cannot impart the totality of my understand upon this board anymore than others can impart their wisdom to me.
I am making the point that Scots is a slur that is so commonplace that noone thinks of it as a slur.
Likewise, Homosexual is an adjective but it is used so often in the modern worlds context that people think the term is a noun.
We live in a democracy but what democracy means is clearly changing when the media will never cover the contents of any peaceful protest's ideology unless it is the countryside alliance backed by royalty.
What I'm saying we all take a lot at face value without rejecting that enough to think things through ourselves.
I'm not biased against you at all Mop, I actually like you ( such as I have come to know you through the boards) and consider you an intelligent, talented and well balanced person with a fair amount of personal drive.
I also respect Daz and enjoy his viewpoints and the differeing tangents from the normal conversation than spring up around here.
The point being that I am also a 3 Dimensional person. To view me with my daughter you would imagine me a big loveable softy, and I am, to view me at work you might imagine me an overly driven serious and outspoken artist, and I am.
My patriotism is merely one part of me. It is just an overpowering side of me. I generally keep it to myself as it is always misread.
If theres a Purgatory waiting for us all at the end of our life, I'll fight forever to defeat my Pride Demon!
That's just part of who I am.
"To be clear, no I dont blindly hate the English, but I've educated myself enough to understand who the real enemy is."
Seriously Ror I swear you wouldn't be happy unless we all battled it out across Hadrians wall! ( yes I know thats not the border any more but it would probably be the more fitting setting for the event in your mind ;-p )
"You mentioned you were a lot more 'internationally minded' these days. I don't think you are."
I beg to differ. Im not particularly patriotic by any means. And for sure not remotely as much as yourself. Im very wary of extreme patriotism. Certainly you have lived in more countries than me. But I dont see how that makes you *know* that Im not 'internationally minded'. What did I really mean by that anyway? Partly, I meant that when I think of people I know and when I meet new people, their country of origin is simply irrelevant to me. Not something I think about. My friends here in the Bay area are American, Canadian, Japanese, Irish, Phillipino, French, English, Scottish, you get the picture. Whilst I see you pulled the 'my best friend is an Englishman' card, you'd appreciate that some comments in your post might leave me unconvinced that you are not prone to judging an English book by its cover ( for whatever reason, including personal experience and football hooliganism ;-p ). English football violence abroad, I have zero explanation for btw. And of course its something that England is famous for and obviously not something Im proud of. There are many many things about 'England' that Im not proud of. I only needed one trip to the costa del Brit in Spain to despise my fellow countrymen. I was in Virgin records in San Francisco the other week, and this horrible middle aged couple from Essex were right in front of me on the escalator. He wore some extreme patriotically English tattoos, union jack shorts and a St. Georges Cross vest, was swearing loudly about something or other being shit in this country and and clearly somewhat drunk. I was horrified, trying to keep distance and darent open my mouth for fear of folks around me catching some accent and placing me with them. But there are uncooth louts everywhere. There is an equivalent Glaswegian 'Ned' counterpart, and for an American version, try a trip to Cancun sometime. But anyway, Im digressing. We are probably all guilty of looking at others through stereotyped spectacles to some extent or another.
All your personal experience stuff about life as a kid in Scotland: Its interesting and depressing, but Im honestly not trying to belittle it by saying that Ive heard it all before from my brother in law. But it does explain your views to a large extent.
I do feel that you are avoiding the point that myself and Paul have brought up about where to draw the line with harbouring resentment. Whats the timescale for things to be square? Do the modern people of Nagasaki and Hiroshima despise Americans? I dont know. Perhaps. Perhaps not. But then, harbouring resentment is getting into deeply philosophical debate which, like you say is not best ironed out over the medium of internet messageboard.
Im also gonna play the 'some of my best friends are Scottish' card. Theres definitely been a few uncomfortable times when the drunken Glaswegians have forgotten Im in their prescense when throwing around the 'that fucking English cunt' term ( not referring to me but still. ) Your argument that its sort of OK because you have more historical ( and personal experience ) reason for resentment than us is something that I dont really agree with or like, but shall think about. I still think that your inherant dislike of 'England' as a concept is nebulous. 'vague, generalised' as MoP said. What *is* England? Its people? Its borders? Its government? Everything about it? Fish & chips? Millwall football club? Im not absolutely convinced that you yourself can explain it. You just have these feelings through experience that have to be directed somehwere. Anyway, again, getting too theoretical and philosophical. Some other time!
This has been interesting! And Kman: thanks for letting us hijack your thread :] sorry!
frankly most people i know from england don't really give a rats about scotland or wales and don't even tend rto think about em much. and as for northern ireland, the ost we used to think of them was 'oh shit, another IRA bomb' so meh.
me thinks ror's one of those militant types who be pissed off at someone no matter where he's from, if he was a black guy it be all about slavery and martin luther king, if he was a german, he'd probably be mouthing off against britain and america for WW2...:D
I got a good laugh at the Hadrian's Wall comment.
You're probably right about that.
But aye, sorry for hijacking your thread Kman.
I checked out the initial link you posted last night too, I didnt know that Lost in Translation was spoofing Connery's Whisky add in Japan, that was funny to find.
Ror- no worries. It's nice to see some points of view from both sides about the matter. It is definitly interesting. All I know is what twisted half lies were in Braveheart. I don't remember having any history lessons on the british isles while I was in school. And since I'm a stupid yank, I am probably missing half the conversations anyhow. Hehe.
i was just saying ror's probably one of those militant types, that would claim he was suppressed and oppressed where ever he came from. like those militant black people who always bitch that you're oppressing them if you just say hello or something or that claim you're sexist if you just say good day miss.
While no excuse for 'militant' behavior, I don't think it's hard to see how blacks in America might come to feel that way. The civil rights movement isn't even 40 years old yet, and being born a typical black in America certainly comes with a different set of challenges today than what faces a typical white. I haven't heard any specific point made by Rorschach that is both as relevant and historically recent as the segregated America my parents were born in. No one is making the Scottish ride at the back of the bus or use separate restrooms...
On another note, I think reading 'Scot' as a racist term is plain ridiculous. Words are meaningless on their own, abstract constructions; it's the intent behind them that gives them purpose. If everyone uses the term merely to mean residents of Scotland, there's nothing racist about it. Adding four characters to form 'Scotsman' or 'Scottish' makes it an acceptable, no longer a racially charged term? Try adding a few letters to 'nigger' and see if you can make that word acceptable. Can't be done, because it still *is* meant as a racial slur. Until this thread, I'd never heard that Scot was intended as one, not any more than saying someone is Welsh or Dutch or Swiss. Should we be calling them Switzish or Switzerlanders because the truncation of the name is offensive? Et ceterea, et cetera. It's a natural truncation of a word, and if Angle wasn't a two-syllable word, you'd get trunctions there, too. But 'Anglo/Englo' isn't saving you any effort over just saying 'English'...
I'd better go on record and say that my perceptions on this are affected by my life experiences as well - we have race riots here in my city, white cops blowing away black kids, boycotts and protests... It's 2004 and there are parts of town I won't enter at night because I'm the wrong color. To hear one pasty skinned, dark haired white guy whose family has lived on a given island for over a millennium say that another pasty skinned, dark-haired white guy whose family has also lived on that island for a millennium is prejudiced against his race... I live with racism and I know what an oppressed people looks like. Roll through the hood in DC sometime, Ror, and see if you can share their plight because your summer cartoons didn't run at a good time. Maybe you are really being discriminated against in Britain, I admit I can't judge that, but compared to what racial division looks like in other countries, even here in the 'Land of the Free'...
*edit*
Shit, and Ror and I were agreeing earlier in the thread. Shot that in the ass, didn't I?
[ QUOTE ]
I am making the point that Scots is a slur that is so commonplace that noone thinks of it as a slur.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ror: Hmm, I don't know about that. I wonder if I took an opinion poll of all of Scotland, and asked if they were offended by being called a "Scot", what results I'd find.
I know for a fact that none of my Scottish friends would mind at all if I said they were "Scots".
Another problem with that is, I'm certain that NO English person is intending to insult the Scottish people when they refer to them as "Scots".
I have a horrible feeling that it's just you and maybe 20 other people in the whole of the Scotland who might think that "Scots" was a racial slur...
Anyway, back onto your other points...
[ QUOTE ]
I did try to make it clear that I'm not against the English, I am against England.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't you think that, maybe, being "against" England is going to naturally come across as being "against" the English? How can you be against a country and not it's people? After all, the people are those who make the country as it is... So really you must be able to see why a lot confusion is springing up around this point.
[ QUOTE ]
I regret I cannot impart the totality of my understand upon this board anymore than others can impart their wisdom to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that has always been a problem with online discussions, and I would seriously love to understand your full situation and mindset, but I don't think that's ever going to happen. Hell, if it did, and made sense, I might even change my mind!
[ QUOTE ]
My patriotism is merely one part of me. It is just an overpowering side of me. I generally keep it to myself as it is always misread.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hehehe
No hard feelings, Ror! Just a difference of opinion here, and I hope you understand my reasons!
[ QUOTE ]
i was just saying ror's probably one of those militant types, that would claim he was suppressed and oppressed where ever he came from. like those militant black people who always bitch that you're oppressing them if you just say hello or something or that claim you're sexist if you just say good day miss.
[/ QUOTE ]I think Ror would rather I let him speak for himself, but I would like to say that this is a very wrong impression of him, and probably why he keeps these opinions to himself most of the time.
I'd also like to point out to Verm that Ror didn't compare his experiences to those of black Americans, sundance did. And all he actually said was that he felt Ror was as reactionary as some black Americans that might take any perceived slight as an excuse to sue the government. Which is, as I said, very wrong.
Northern Ireland is British. The two big islands are the British Isles. The larger of the two is know as Great Britian, while the smaller has no known name. The original "lesser Britain" was in fact in France - Brittainy.
Anyway, there is a Britian, which is that same as 2 islands, Great Britiah which is the larger. The UK is the UK of Great Britian and Northen Ireland, and this is British.
I think Harl explained this to me many moons ago, but lets see if I have this straight.
So...
England, Wales and Scottland make up the larger island which is "Great Britain" and Ireland and Northern Ireland make up the smaller island.
The United Kingdom is England, Wales, Scottland and Northern Ireland.
Have I finally got this correct now?
The Shetlands, and The Outer hebrides (or Western Isles) are part of the UK, and as I recall are both Scottish.
There is another big island called the Isle of Man, its in the Irish sea. It is not part of the UK, its a self governing kingdom, but mainly uses the English language and currency.
the british isles also includes the orkney islands which are between the shetlands and the mainland of scotland, and the isles of scilly which are off the south-western tip of cornwall. i think you'll find that the isle of man is actually a crown colony, and is self-governing, it's not a kingdom cos it's part of the commonwealth (which is made up of countries which used to be the empire; eg australia, new zealand, canada, south africa and a bunch of places in africa and the caribbean and also the falkland islands and dependencies in the south atlantic. and the channel islands which are near france).
i think you'll find that the second biggest island of the british isles is called Eire, as the southern republic was once called.
What makes the Isle of Man different from anywhere else in the British Isles? Many things! The Island is a unique self-governing kingdom - a Crown dependency which belongs to neither the UK nor the European Union. It has its own parliament (called Tynwald), laws, traditions, culture, cuisine and postage stamps. But as a holiday island it is best known for its very agreeable and relaxed pace of life, along with a wealth of attractions and places to stay. And while other differences include the Manx language and currency (though English is the spoken tongue and English and UK currencies are accepted everywhere), there are also reassuring familiarities - such as driving on the left and road signs in English.
I'm a direct decendent of the Master of the Mayflower, that's as far back in my history as I know. But you can all just call me Mutt Boy because I also have some german and polish blood I think.
I personally don't want Jackman for next Bond.
I think Farrell could do it. He is one actor nowadays that I always look forward to watching. I think he is pretty much an outstanding choice, but I'm not sure if he is the kinda guy who would want to be tagged with that kinda recurring role.
I just dont see Farrel working out for me. But maybe thats just because Im used to hearing him do an American accent I dont know. I dunno, he just seems a bit too 'Hollywood' for the role for my liking. If you liked Die Another Day, then I guess thats fitting, but to inject some much needed 'Britishness' into the franchise, I think Owen would ( for rather obvious reasons ) work out better than Farrel or Jackman.
I saw this amusing and somewhat arrogant quote from Pierce yesterday, so he seems to be a bit of a 'flip-flopper'! Either that or he is just constantly misquoted on the subject ( probably more likely ):
"Irish heart-throb Pierce Brosnan has said he believes there should be no more Bond movies following his last appearance as 007.
The 51-year-old has been dropped from the super spy role and Colin Farrell, Hugh Jackman, Jude Law and Colin Firth have all been rumoured to be the next incumbent.
At the premiere of his latest film, After The Sunset, Brosnan joked: "I would not like anyone else to be Bond. I would like them to stop there and never do another one."
However, Brosnan, who is backing fellow Irishman Farrell for the part, is realistic about the action hero's future.
He added: "It's a modern franchise so there will be another Bond and whoever does it will have a great time."
After The Sunset was shown as part of the The Times BFI London Film Festival.
"
LOL Brosnan seems to be getting the most publicity from this than anyone!
I don't like Jackman for the role. Physically he is prbably a-ok, but I think it should be cast to someone from either (as I learned from this thread) the small British island or the big British island. Really I do.
PIERCE BROSNAN has tipped Harry Potter star DANIEL RADCLIFFE to be a future James Bond.
The actor, who has slipped into the the suave spys tuxedo for a decade, said the schoolboy had the potential to be a perfect 007.
Brosnan, in London for the premiere of his new movie After The Sunset, said: For the next Bond, COLIN FARRELL would be great. But if you want to go even younger, Daniel Radcliffe.
Give him a few years. You can see it, cant you? Hell be great. From Harry Potter to Bond.
If it happens I'll spit on the name. If it does happen it'll be for 2 words "Political Correctness".
Problems: He's a speaker
He's not an actor (see above)
He isn't British (Or UK)
He's black
The one good thing going for him (not saying blacks are below anyone on that..) is that he's confident in his attitude, although I don't think it'd carry to the big screen.
I've been crossing my fingers for Macgregor since I first read this thread. Jude Law might be the sensible Metro Sexual age Bond but I'd prefer to get back a little to what Connery brought to the role and I think most Ewans previous roles show slices of that old Connery smug arrogance that made him so enjoyable to me.
I reckon Ewan McGregor would make a pretty good Bond. He'd have to dye his hair darker though!
I personally would hate Jude Law as Bond, I don't rate him as an actor. Plus his face just seems... wrong... for Bond.
...wow.. and I thought U.S.Politics got complicated. Now I neverwant to visit the U.K....
As to the Bond Replacement, please not Hugh Jackman, and please not (the overexposed) Jude Law. Ewan MacGregor would be a good choice, I think though. Jackman is just not "Heavy enough". He seems like a lightweight. and Jude Law is just overexposed.
Replies
*edit*
Amusingly, I made a compltely unrelated reference to the Norman conquest earlier today in Rick's spelling thread. If that arrow had missed good ol' Harold at the Battle of Hastings, maybe we're having a slightly different conversation, eh?
I don't live in the past, my resentment toward England is directed toward the establishment and is borne out of growing up in Scotland as a Scot and is nothing to do with my reading up on Celtic times. My reading up on the Celts and searching history has been borne out of my search to find out if things have always been like this and if things were different in the past, how did it go wrong.
For a Scot its very hard to grow up and not resent the English. It starts very early at school age when we got our summer holidays and there were no cartoons on until the last week of our holidays because thats when the English school kids would begin their summer holidays.
When in the classroom a scottish child was slapped or chided for using their own language ( which predates the English Language considerably) and replying 'Aye'.
As we get older we learn the reason for this is the new education being set down for us from England is designed to get rid of our old language and that when we come to career choosing age we will need to fit into the English ideals.
We then learn that although we are studying the same course to the same standard, the award given at the end of the course is called a different thing in Scotland than it is in England and in fact the scottish grade is regarded as lower that the English equivalent.
There are many many instances like this that puncuate growing up on Scotland as a Scot. I don't think that this can be understood without firsthand knowledge and the fact that Glasgow has as many racists blindly blaming the wrong englishmen as Londo has racists blindly stereotyping Scots as mirroring an image they themselves created, you are a little blind to that; with good reason, I expect I would react the same way.
Facts of the matter are that I reserve judgement upon everyone. The best friend I have is an Englishman. He lives still in Chester Le Street , I still phone him bi monthly after a couple of drams as he's one of the very few people I can actually 'talk' to.
The English Establishment has specifically set out to eradicate our culture, we've only recently started realising once more that this is something we should try to reinvigorate. We can only go so far though. Recently, before I left Scotland it was finally spelled out good and proper at the last elections that we have a playdo parliament in Scotland that doesnt truly have the power to make its own decisions or vote for independance.
The Stone of Destiny although returned in the hopes of quelling the spirit of rebellion that was stoked up again by , of all things, Braveheart; is still the property of the Queen and the Scottish public have to pay 2 pound to sneek a peek at it.
To be clear, no I dont blindly hate the English, but I've educated myself enough to understand who the real enemy is. Its not simply the english establishment, its the 2dimensional viewpoint that has been generated on both sides of the border by lack of information.
At the end of the day, as ashamed as I am that you have experienced racism at the hands of Scots. I can understand their hatred and though they have lashed out at the wrong person they have far more right to lash out than the English do.
You mentioned you were a lot more 'internationally minded' this days. I don't think you are. I am , well to a certain extent simply because I've lived in more countries for a longer period of time than you ( i think, though I am assuming here and that could cost me!!) and have married a woman from a non english speaking country.
I discovered that most of europe has the same viewpoint toward England that I do and that it is NOTHING to do with history and nothing to do with living in the past but simply to do with how England conducts itself today and what its attitude is to other people.
Almost every time the English football supporters go to another country there is violence, everytime the Scottish football supporters travel abroad there is no violence ( and as has been brought up here, we always bloody lose dont we?!).
In television coverage a few of the commentators have spent the last 2 decades refusing to referring to the Scottish as anything other than ' Jocks', what is the English equivalent for that Daz? I mean, people from Pakistan have the racial slur of Pakis, Black people have the racial slur of Niggers, Scottish people are caleld Jocks or Scots, what is the english equaivalent?
I'm saying that an to a certain extent, for an Englishman to complain to Scotsman about racism is amatuer league. The only slur I know of that applies to the English is Limey or Brits and thats not specific to England really.
I apologise for the long winded response. I have attempted to explain moreso this time without my previous posts passion and tried to be more logical and also not to recount the many historical episodes that mirror the modern day plight of the Scottish.
----
Using Messageboards for philosophical debates or debates about our ideological beliefs in general is kind of like using a shovel and a pickaxe to perform open heart surgery.
I don't see us reaching much of an accomadation as we are mostly on opposite sides of the fence and we have each had our racial slaps.
You should bear in mind though, England was the country that initiated all this and it has been England that has guided the development of the situation through the policy it has set down. From the sounds of things, you've been forced into the shoes of an outsider in Glasgow when you were not one, that experience should allow you to empathize my anger at Scotland being reduced to the role that it has been within Britain.
I think I am a romantic, I have a romantic turn of phrase but that is not the same as romantacizing the past. I understand more clearly than most what the average Scotsman can be like when angry and hurt. I know we are not who we once were, but I see England as responsible for that to a large degree.
The shame of it is that this situation has gone on so long that the Scottish History is more replete than most with betrayal. We're a nation that has betrayed itself so often that we are mostly ashamed to be who we are.
Its that sense of self loathing, of blaming ourselves for our situation that informed Rentons Speech in Trainspotting ( a speech I do NOT agree with btw).
So I like to think of myself as a realist. If I were just a romantic, I wouldnt be so much of an older misery guts would I?
Thats my attempt to end on an upbeat note.
Granted, Rorshach, you have your history and you're evidently bitter about it, so you might be mildly justified in feeling angry - but far too many Scots seem to "hate" the English purely because they've grown up with it. If there's any reason for the modern Englishman to be pissed off at the modern Scotsman, it's because (in my experience), the Scottish have a vague, generalised and quite frankly unnecessary hatred of UK citizens south of the border.
After all, it's not like every English person is secretly plotting to bring down the Scottish nation.
I'm all for regional parliament and devolution in Scotland and the north-east of England. I agree that London seems to be distanced, lifestyle and attitude-wise, from the north of the UK.
Oh, and Rorshach, why are you indicating that calling the Scottish people "Scots" is a racial slur? That doesn't make much sense.
Bleh. I have more Scottish friends than English. My best friend of 10 years (more than half my life) is Scottish, as are most of his family. They have no problem with English people. I don't see why you should let ancient history dictate what you feel about nations today. I don't hate Norwegians because the Vikings invaded us 1000 years ago...
Hmm. James Bond, yes! Why not!
PS, I just realised, although I would love to meet and talk shop or whatever with you in real life, Rorshach, and I'm sure you're a great guy, I can't help but feel that after reading your posts here, you would be greeting me as an Englishman and therefore being biased against me. Now I'm sure that would not be the case, but I'm just letting you know that this is the impression you're giving off...
I regret I cannot impart the totality of my understand upon this board anymore than others can impart their wisdom to me.
I am making the point that Scots is a slur that is so commonplace that noone thinks of it as a slur.
Likewise, Homosexual is an adjective but it is used so often in the modern worlds context that people think the term is a noun.
We live in a democracy but what democracy means is clearly changing when the media will never cover the contents of any peaceful protest's ideology unless it is the countryside alliance backed by royalty.
What I'm saying we all take a lot at face value without rejecting that enough to think things through ourselves.
I'm not biased against you at all Mop, I actually like you ( such as I have come to know you through the boards) and consider you an intelligent, talented and well balanced person with a fair amount of personal drive.
I also respect Daz and enjoy his viewpoints and the differeing tangents from the normal conversation than spring up around here.
The point being that I am also a 3 Dimensional person. To view me with my daughter you would imagine me a big loveable softy, and I am, to view me at work you might imagine me an overly driven serious and outspoken artist, and I am.
My patriotism is merely one part of me. It is just an overpowering side of me. I generally keep it to myself as it is always misread.
If theres a Purgatory waiting for us all at the end of our life, I'll fight forever to defeat my Pride Demon!
That's just part of who I am.
'part'
Seriously Ror I swear you wouldn't be happy unless we all battled it out across Hadrians wall! ( yes I know thats not the border any more but it would probably be the more fitting setting for the event in your mind ;-p )
"You mentioned you were a lot more 'internationally minded' these days. I don't think you are."
I beg to differ. Im not particularly patriotic by any means. And for sure not remotely as much as yourself. Im very wary of extreme patriotism. Certainly you have lived in more countries than me. But I dont see how that makes you *know* that Im not 'internationally minded'. What did I really mean by that anyway? Partly, I meant that when I think of people I know and when I meet new people, their country of origin is simply irrelevant to me. Not something I think about. My friends here in the Bay area are American, Canadian, Japanese, Irish, Phillipino, French, English, Scottish, you get the picture. Whilst I see you pulled the 'my best friend is an Englishman' card, you'd appreciate that some comments in your post might leave me unconvinced that you are not prone to judging an English book by its cover ( for whatever reason, including personal experience and football hooliganism ;-p ). English football violence abroad, I have zero explanation for btw. And of course its something that England is famous for and obviously not something Im proud of. There are many many things about 'England' that Im not proud of. I only needed one trip to the costa del Brit in Spain to despise my fellow countrymen. I was in Virgin records in San Francisco the other week, and this horrible middle aged couple from Essex were right in front of me on the escalator. He wore some extreme patriotically English tattoos, union jack shorts and a St. Georges Cross vest, was swearing loudly about something or other being shit in this country and and clearly somewhat drunk. I was horrified, trying to keep distance and darent open my mouth for fear of folks around me catching some accent and placing me with them. But there are uncooth louts everywhere. There is an equivalent Glaswegian 'Ned' counterpart, and for an American version, try a trip to Cancun sometime. But anyway, Im digressing. We are probably all guilty of looking at others through stereotyped spectacles to some extent or another.
All your personal experience stuff about life as a kid in Scotland: Its interesting and depressing, but Im honestly not trying to belittle it by saying that Ive heard it all before from my brother in law. But it does explain your views to a large extent.
I do feel that you are avoiding the point that myself and Paul have brought up about where to draw the line with harbouring resentment. Whats the timescale for things to be square? Do the modern people of Nagasaki and Hiroshima despise Americans? I dont know. Perhaps. Perhaps not. But then, harbouring resentment is getting into deeply philosophical debate which, like you say is not best ironed out over the medium of internet messageboard.
Im also gonna play the 'some of my best friends are Scottish' card. Theres definitely been a few uncomfortable times when the drunken Glaswegians have forgotten Im in their prescense when throwing around the 'that fucking English cunt' term ( not referring to me but still. ) Your argument that its sort of OK because you have more historical ( and personal experience ) reason for resentment than us is something that I dont really agree with or like, but shall think about. I still think that your inherant dislike of 'England' as a concept is nebulous. 'vague, generalised' as MoP said. What *is* England? Its people? Its borders? Its government? Everything about it? Fish & chips? Millwall football club? Im not absolutely convinced that you yourself can explain it. You just have these feelings through experience that have to be directed somehwere. Anyway, again, getting too theoretical and philosophical. Some other time!
This has been interesting! And Kman: thanks for letting us hijack your thread :] sorry!
me thinks ror's one of those militant types who be pissed off at someone no matter where he's from, if he was a black guy it be all about slavery and martin luther king, if he was a german, he'd probably be mouthing off against britain and america for WW2...:D
You're probably right about that.
But aye, sorry for hijacking your thread Kman.
I checked out the initial link you posted last night too, I didnt know that Lost in Translation was spoofing Connery's Whisky add in Japan, that was funny to find.
On another note, I think reading 'Scot' as a racist term is plain ridiculous. Words are meaningless on their own, abstract constructions; it's the intent behind them that gives them purpose. If everyone uses the term merely to mean residents of Scotland, there's nothing racist about it. Adding four characters to form 'Scotsman' or 'Scottish' makes it an acceptable, no longer a racially charged term? Try adding a few letters to 'nigger' and see if you can make that word acceptable. Can't be done, because it still *is* meant as a racial slur. Until this thread, I'd never heard that Scot was intended as one, not any more than saying someone is Welsh or Dutch or Swiss. Should we be calling them Switzish or Switzerlanders because the truncation of the name is offensive? Et ceterea, et cetera. It's a natural truncation of a word, and if Angle wasn't a two-syllable word, you'd get trunctions there, too. But 'Anglo/Englo' isn't saving you any effort over just saying 'English'...
I'd better go on record and say that my perceptions on this are affected by my life experiences as well - we have race riots here in my city, white cops blowing away black kids, boycotts and protests... It's 2004 and there are parts of town I won't enter at night because I'm the wrong color. To hear one pasty skinned, dark haired white guy whose family has lived on a given island for over a millennium say that another pasty skinned, dark-haired white guy whose family has also lived on that island for a millennium is prejudiced against his race... I live with racism and I know what an oppressed people looks like. Roll through the hood in DC sometime, Ror, and see if you can share their plight because your summer cartoons didn't run at a good time. Maybe you are really being discriminated against in Britain, I admit I can't judge that, but compared to what racial division looks like in other countries, even here in the 'Land of the Free'...
*edit*
Shit, and Ror and I were agreeing earlier in the thread. Shot that in the ass, didn't I?
I am making the point that Scots is a slur that is so commonplace that noone thinks of it as a slur.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ror: Hmm, I don't know about that. I wonder if I took an opinion poll of all of Scotland, and asked if they were offended by being called a "Scot", what results I'd find.
I know for a fact that none of my Scottish friends would mind at all if I said they were "Scots".
Another problem with that is, I'm certain that NO English person is intending to insult the Scottish people when they refer to them as "Scots".
I have a horrible feeling that it's just you and maybe 20 other people in the whole of the Scotland who might think that "Scots" was a racial slur...
Anyway, back onto your other points...
[ QUOTE ]
I did try to make it clear that I'm not against the English, I am against England.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't you think that, maybe, being "against" England is going to naturally come across as being "against" the English? How can you be against a country and not it's people? After all, the people are those who make the country as it is... So really you must be able to see why a lot confusion is springing up around this point.
[ QUOTE ]
I regret I cannot impart the totality of my understand upon this board anymore than others can impart their wisdom to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that has always been a problem with online discussions, and I would seriously love to understand your full situation and mindset, but I don't think that's ever going to happen. Hell, if it did, and made sense, I might even change my mind!
[ QUOTE ]
My patriotism is merely one part of me. It is just an overpowering side of me. I generally keep it to myself as it is always misread.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hehehe
No hard feelings, Ror! Just a difference of opinion here, and I hope you understand my reasons!
MoP
most scottish folks i've met are more happy to be called scots than they are to be called brits.
i was just saying ror's probably one of those militant types, that would claim he was suppressed and oppressed where ever he came from. like those militant black people who always bitch that you're oppressing them if you just say hello or something or that claim you're sexist if you just say good day miss.
[/ QUOTE ]I think Ror would rather I let him speak for himself, but I would like to say that this is a very wrong impression of him, and probably why he keeps these opinions to himself most of the time.
I'd also like to point out to Verm that Ror didn't compare his experiences to those of black Americans, sundance did. And all he actually said was that he felt Ror was as reactionary as some black Americans that might take any perceived slight as an excuse to sue the government. Which is, as I said, very wrong.
Frank the Avenger
Northern Ireland is British. The two big islands are the British Isles. The larger of the two is know as Great Britian, while the smaller has no known name. The original "lesser Britain" was in fact in France - Brittainy.
Anyway, there is a Britian, which is that same as 2 islands, Great Britiah which is the larger. The UK is the UK of Great Britian and Northen Ireland, and this is British.
And it says British on my passport.
So...
England, Wales and Scottland make up the larger island which is "Great Britain" and Ireland and Northern Ireland make up the smaller island.
The United Kingdom is England, Wales, Scottland and Northern Ireland.
Have I finally got this correct now?
Also what do the Shetlands fall under?
The Shetlands, and The Outer hebrides (or Western Isles) are part of the UK, and as I recall are both Scottish.
There is another big island called the Isle of Man, its in the Irish sea. It is not part of the UK, its a self governing kingdom, but mainly uses the English language and currency.
Polycount Message Boards: General Discussion and Geography
i think you'll find that the second biggest island of the british isles is called Eire, as the southern republic was once called.
What makes the Isle of Man different from anywhere else in the British Isles? Many things! The Island is a unique self-governing kingdom - a Crown dependency which belongs to neither the UK nor the European Union. It has its own parliament (called Tynwald), laws, traditions, culture, cuisine and postage stamps. But as a holiday island it is best known for its very agreeable and relaxed pace of life, along with a wealth of attractions and places to stay. And while other differences include the Manx language and currency (though English is the spoken tongue and English and UK currencies are accepted everywhere), there are also reassuring familiarities - such as driving on the left and road signs in English.
http://www.iomtt.com/
This thread deserves some kind of award for 'most derailed original subject'!
I'm really hoping that Climax do a Moto GP spin off for Road Racing. That would be insanely good fun on Xbox Live.
Brosnan speaks last May...
http://www.cinema.com/news/item.phtml?ID=6976
and Brosnan speaks last week (bottom of the article)
http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_1160049.html?menu=entertainment.celebrities
I personally don't want Jackman for next Bond.
I think Farrell could do it. He is one actor nowadays that I always look forward to watching. I think he is pretty much an outstanding choice, but I'm not sure if he is the kinda guy who would want to be tagged with that kinda recurring role.
I saw this amusing and somewhat arrogant quote from Pierce yesterday, so he seems to be a bit of a 'flip-flopper'! Either that or he is just constantly misquoted on the subject ( probably more likely ):
"Irish heart-throb Pierce Brosnan has said he believes there should be no more Bond movies following his last appearance as 007.
The 51-year-old has been dropped from the super spy role and Colin Farrell, Hugh Jackman, Jude Law and Colin Firth have all been rumoured to be the next incumbent.
At the premiere of his latest film, After The Sunset, Brosnan joked: "I would not like anyone else to be Bond. I would like them to stop there and never do another one."
However, Brosnan, who is backing fellow Irishman Farrell for the part, is realistic about the action hero's future.
He added: "It's a modern franchise so there will be another Bond and whoever does it will have a great time."
After The Sunset was shown as part of the The Times BFI London Film Festival.
"
I don't like Jackman for the role. Physically he is prbably a-ok, but I think it should be cast to someone from either (as I learned from this thread) the small British island or the big British island. Really I do.
I still think Farrell, could do it
PIERCE BROSNAN has tipped Harry Potter star DANIEL RADCLIFFE to be a future James Bond.
The actor, who has slipped into the the suave spys tuxedo for a decade, said the schoolboy had the potential to be a perfect 007.
Brosnan, in London for the premiere of his new movie After The Sunset, said: For the next Bond, COLIN FARRELL would be great. But if you want to go even younger, Daniel Radcliffe.
Give him a few years. You can see it, cant you? Hell be great. From Harry Potter to Bond.
link
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/insiders/guides/articles/14483616?source=Metro
/goes off to gather reference.
I thought he was a PURE yank
\o/
He's been the bond I've really grown up with, so the next bond will be when *I* can say how good he was..
OK, it's all been decided. Theyve found our man:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/insiders/guides/articles/14483616?source=Metro
/goes off to gather reference.
[/ QUOTE ]
i can actually see that happening
Problems: He's a speaker
He's not an actor (see above)
He isn't British (Or UK)
He's black
The one good thing going for him (not saying blacks are below anyone on that..) is that he's confident in his attitude, although I don't think it'd carry to the big screen.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/3988029.stm
Actor Pierce Brosnan has confirmed he will not play James Bond again, accusing producers of going back on an offer for him to return.
Brosnan, who has appeared in four Bond blockbusters, said he agreed to film a fifth but was "gutted" when filmmakers changed their minds.
BTW connery 'is' bond , brosnan is a nancy boy with girly hair
http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Movies/11/09/film.bond.reut/index.html
and
http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/entertainment/8742004.htm
I personally would hate Jude Law as Bond, I don't rate him as an actor. Plus his face just seems... wrong... for Bond.
As to the Bond Replacement, please not Hugh Jackman, and please not (the overexposed) Jude Law. Ewan MacGregor would be a good choice, I think though. Jackman is just not "Heavy enough". He seems like a lightweight. and Jude Law is just overexposed.
Scott
That said, I don't think he'd suit the Bond role. But you never know. He looks a bit too grizzly, I think, not smooth and suave enough.