Wow day 1 DLC, microstansactions and single use , wut ?
if this is true(the micro transactions and single use dlc not the day 1 dlc)
it's a massive dick move by the team/publisher.
"More frustrating to some are the specifics of the game's preorder/Day One Edition DLC, which is available on all platforms. Called the Covert Agent Pack, this comes with various in-game items, such as weapons, skins, and upgrades. Setting aside one issue--that the game was designed under the assumption you wouldn't have them--there's one other problem: they're one-use-only."
Wow day 1 DLC, microstansactions and single use , wut ?
if this is true(the micro transactions and single use dlc not the day 1 dlc)
it's a massive dick move by the team/publisher.
"More frustrating to some are the specifics of the game's preorder/Day One Edition DLC, which is available on all platforms. Called the Covert Agent Pack, this comes with various in-game items, such as weapons, skins, and upgrades. Setting aside one issue--that the game was designed under the assumption you wouldn't have them--there's one other problem: they're one-use-only."
skimmed those 2 articles and didnt really see an issue besides the perfomance on pc stuff. then decided to dip my toes into the comments sections and bathed luxuriously in a sea of crybaby tears, imagining how something so trivial as optional paid items can actually ruin someones day. god i love the internet.
skimmed those 2 articles and didnt really see an issue besides the perfomance on pc stuff. then decided to dip my toes into the comments sections and bathed luxuriously in a sea of crybaby tears, imagining how something so trivial as optional paid items can actually ruin someones day. god i love the internet.
skimmed those 2 articles and didnt really see an issue besides the perfomance on pc stuff. then decided to dip my toes into the comments sections and bathed luxuriously in a sea of crybaby tears, imagining how something so trivial as optional paid items can actually ruin someones day. god i love the internet.
+ 1
It's a dick move by the "community" to have a tantrum, trash the brand name, and immediately refund your copy because you have the option to use microtransactions
skimmed those 2 articles and didnt really see an issue besides the perfomance on pc stuff. then decided to dip my toes into the comments sections and bathed luxuriously in a sea of crybaby tears, imagining how something so trivial as optional paid items can actually ruin someones day. god i love the internet.
Yep. Kind of unfortunate to see it spill into Polycount too..
I pre-ordered the game and I guess I have those items but I haven't even touched them yet. I really don't care at all.
Anyways, the game is absolutely beautiful and there is an insane amount to explore even in the first hour or two. I'm loving how much work was put into all the digital newspapers and data devices and how well it goes along with the story. So far, it's definitely one of my favorite games in the past few years!
The art book is great too. I'm really glad you all were able to show early concepts from Jensen as well as the other characters.
skimmed those 2 articles and didnt really see an issue besides the perfomance on pc stuff. then decided to dip my toes into the comments sections and bathed luxuriously in a sea of crybaby tears, imagining how something so trivial as optional paid items can actually ruin someones day. god i love the internet.
+ 1
It's a dick move by the "community" to have a tantrum, trash the brand name, and immediately refund your copy because you have the option to use microtransactions
I wouldn't refund it because of that. I mean, the game itself is great from what I hear but still how can you not see the problem here?
I wouldn't refund it because of that. I mean, the game itself is great from what I hear but still how can you not see the problem here?
seeing as its all optional and not required to finish the game, get achievements or enjoy the game...I would say it doesn't detract from it in any way. and 99% of the people crying about it havent even played the game and are just parroting whatever the 12 year old hivemind of the internet tells them to whine about that day.
on a more on topic note, i cant wait to play this, the art looks dope as hell and loved HR. probably gonna sink my teeth into this soon. I'll keep my mouth shut and not be a negative nancy until i get some decent hands on time and can formulate an actual opinion.
I wouldn't refund it because of that. I mean, the game itself is great from what I hear but still how can you not see the problem here?
seeing as its all optional and not required to finish the game, get achievements or enjoy the game...I would say it doesn't detract from it in any way. and 99% of the people crying about it havent even played the game and are just parroting whatever the 12 year old hivemind of the internet tells them to whine about that day.
Yeeep. I think this is one of, if not the most mild microtransactions I've seen added to a game recently. I don't think I've even seen a menu for them yet.
skimmed those 2 articles and didnt really see an issue besides the perfomance on pc stuff. then decided to dip my toes into the comments sections and bathed luxuriously in a sea of crybaby tears, imagining how something so trivial as optional paid items can actually ruin someones day. god i love the internet.
Internet comments are always interesting , its the Internet. I feel there is a solid argument to be made being for and against day 1 DLC Preorder and Micro--transactions. It's still a touchy topic, as long as the game is still build around not purchasing micro I'm fine with it. When games purposefully make micro part of the game or makes it a different experience and is no longer optional then I have a problem
Games use to be sold complete, it just seems more and more companies take out park of the game to resell them. I'm not saying this is the case with Deus Ex but its a hard topic
Games use to be sold complete, it just seems more and more companies take out park of the game to resell them. I'm not saying this is the case with Deus Ex but its a hard topic
I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions that keeps being thrown around by gamers and people who don't actually work in the industry. A lot of the times DLC is developed in parallel to the main game, with a completely separate, team, budget and production. Or, cranked out in the 2-3 months of waiting around time between gold master and shipping and because it is delivered digitally instead of having to rely on physical manufacturing unlike the main game can be delivered on day 1. instead of ohhhh you know.....the team sitting idle doing nothing and all getting laid off after a dev cycle.
I have worked on at least 5 games that have had DLC and not once was it something that was taken out of the main game and re-packaged as DLC. I don't think I have ever bought any DLC for any game, but I am not gonna sit here and bitch that it shouldn't exist. I would love to see some examples of AAA full price games that cannot be completed or are not fun without purchasing what people infer as mandatory microtransactions or dlc.
Game looks great, loving all the little details, like reading the labels on boxes for whatever reason; it's fun somehow!
The funny part about comments on the cash shop praxis is that people shifted it towards cheating the things in, because fuck the man or whatever. Now people who hadn't thought about cheating are thinking about it now. Simply because it's now part of the game meta and presented as a game feature they feel is unobtainable, like it feeds into completionism somehow.
No they weren't. That's a weird statement that's been going around for a while now. Content is and was ALWAYS cut or mechanics have to be pared back and dropped, due to time/money/manpower etc.
The only thing that's changed is the internet is a thing now and companies have more avenues to communicate to consumers during development.
Having said that, cant wait to pick the game up in a week or so! Any chance of getting any art dumps or breakdowns? Especially for the characters.
Games use to be sold complete, it just seems more and more companies take out park of the game to resell them. I'm not saying this is the case with Deus Ex but its a hard topic
I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions that keeps being thrown around by gamers and people who don't actually work in the industry. A lot of the times DLC is developed in parallel to the main game, with a completely separate, team, budget and production. Or, cranked out in the 2-3 months of waiting around time between gold master and shipping and because it is delivered digitally instead of having to rely on physical manufacturing unlike the main game can be delivered on day 1. instead of ohhhh you know.....the team sitting idle doing nothing and all getting laid off after a dev cycle.
I have worked on at least 5 games that have had DLC and not once was it something that was taken out of the main game and re-packaged as DLC. I don't think I have ever bought any DLC for any game, but I am not gonna sit here and bitch that it shouldn't exist. I would love to see some examples of AAA full price games that cannot be completed or are not fun without purchasing what people infer as mandatory microtransactions or dlc.
That is a fair assessment but that is not what I am saying. I may have grouped every game when I said it but I think DX did a good job of a rather light / tame DLC experience. There are plenty of games that abuse it. I will use an example per your guide
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 13 , had courses you could "rent or purchase" which were available in the previous games. The SIMS 4 did something very similar a few years ago by removing content from 3 and reselling it. No game is good or bad, its all about how they implement it on a case by case basis
Games use to be sold complete, it just seems more and more companies take out park of the game to resell them. I'm not saying this is the case with Deus Ex but its a hard topic
I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions that keeps being thrown around by gamers and people who don't actually work in the industry. A lot of the times DLC is developed in parallel to the main game, with a completely separate, team, budget and production. Or, cranked out in the 2-3 months of waiting around time between gold master and shipping and because it is delivered digitally instead of having to rely on physical manufacturing unlike the main game can be delivered on day 1. instead of ohhhh you know.....the team sitting idle doing nothing and all getting laid off after a dev cycle.
I have worked on at least 5 games that have had DLC and not once was it something that was taken out of the main game and re-packaged as DLC. I don't think I have ever bought any DLC for any game, but I am not gonna sit here and bitch that it shouldn't exist. I would love to see some examples of AAA full price games that cannot be completed or are not fun without purchasing what people infer as mandatory microtransactions or dlc.
If you know it's a misconception then work around it
release the DLC one year or 6 months after the launch Expecting your userbase to know something about the developing process and expecting them to be sympathetic is a bad plan.
a disturbingly large portion of the gaming community is composed of people who don't care about context
these are the same people who saw the removal of Tracer's pose in overwatch as "pandering to social justice warriors" and think that anyone who says otherwise is also a stupid liberal idiot who worships anita sarkesian
but.. back to the topic
I know that in the first few months of release is when dlc is going to be 100% effective but eh.. just to save face, just release it 6 months after.
I want to love this game so hard but depending on your PC configuration, the game can be a mess. I've streamed out the world multiple times, a lot of assets just never stream in, including what looks like the platform I need to access the combat tutorial. There's also no save point in the first mission at all! They don't appear to allow manual or auto saves (or the fail...), so when I shut down after an hour to double check that my drivers were up to date, I lost all process.
I want to love you Deus Ex, but why must you hurt me so? (and no, my machine is not min spec ;P)
No they weren't. That's a weird statement that's been going around for a while now. Content is and was ALWAYS cut or mechanics have to be pared back and dropped, due to time/money/manpower etc.
The only thing that's changed is the internet is a thing now and companies have more avenues to communicate to consumers during development.
Having said that, cant wait to pick the game up in a week or so! Any chance of getting any art dumps or breakdowns? Especially for the characters.
I think I get what he means, my only bug with this so far was getting it on the day it came out and not being able to play it due to the day one patch which was 3.8 GB, which took til 10.30pm at night after starting it from getting home from work at 6. I don't have a bad internet speed but due to having the playstation in a different room to a modem so have to rely on its wireless which isn't great but whatever happened to picking up a game and being able to play straight away these days? It's not even like the game has a online multiplayer presence that needs to be fixed.
But would also like to say great game so far only played it for 2 hours so far and feel as though I've done nothing due to just exploring and trying to find everything I can !
Really like the game, I especially like the environments. The art is beautiful and the more subtle effects are awesome, like how if you're indoors and close a window the sound coming from outside is dampened..
I was worried about how well it would run given what I had read in the steam reviews but I'm finding it runs perfect on high settings on my i5-2400/GTX970.
Other things though feel like a serious step down from HR. Why can't you exit menus by pressing tab a second time? You have to press tab to open a menu then click the back button or hit escape to exit it... I also really cannot understand how anyone could think it was a good idea to put horizontal lens flares all over the hacking screen, they look remarkably like node connections which makes hacking pointlessly difficult on complex node graphs.
Minor complaints though, overall my experience has been great so far.
I want to love this game so hard but depending on your PC configuration, the game can be a mess. I've streamed out the world multiple times, a lot of assets just never stream in, including what looks like the platform I need to access the combat tutorial. There's also no save point in the first mission at all! They don't appear to allow manual or auto saves (or the fail...), so when I shut down after an hour to double check that my drivers were up to date, I lost all process.
I want to love you Deus Ex, but why must you hurt me so? (and no, my machine is not min spec ;P) *snip*
Hey, I heard some people who got that problem fixed it by creating a new save. No idea, just throwing it out there ^^ Maybe you already did that, as you said, heh
Is it just me or is hacking much more difficult that it was in Human Revolution. I was great at hacking in Human but I'm a bit lost on Mankind. Still need to get grips with what all the nodes are for, I've completely forgot from Human.
Is it just me or is hacking much more difficult that it was in Human Revolution. I was great at hacking in Human but I'm a bit lost on Mankind. Still need to get grips with what all the nodes are for, I've completely forgot from Human.
It's pretty much exactly the same, in terms of nodes. The timer is a lot more aggressive though and the interface is significantly worse.
Ive only played an hour or two I think, but so far pretty cool! I kinda wish the "sharpen" graphical filter was a slider instead of a binary on/off. When off, its pleasant and nice looking but could do with a bit of sharpness. With it on, its "OMG turn it off, too much!"
Also, I think I've hit a bug with the augmentation disable/enabling. I can try to disable all my augs basically and still be "overloaded". I think I may, however just have been doing it wrong. It was late at night.
Jensen looks great! Some of the NPC's......not so much. There is a wider gulf in both style and quality, between hero characters and npc/rando street civilians than even the previous game(which suffered from the same issue quite a bit).
Edit: 1 more thing...I feel like the walk speed and default mouse sensitivity are too high. Everything is just a little jittery and fast for me...maybe I'll get used to it as I play more. I found myself crouching while walking around the hub areas just to feel like I wasn't running everywhere.
Played the first couple hours at a buddys house on ps4 last night. Super gorgeous game, especially the prauge hub. some things break down when you really look at them, but the materials and lighting are fantastic. Only downside I noticed is the controls are a bit janky, aiming and gunplay is good, definitely better than hr, but still not as smooth and feel good as say COD or BF. very cool vibes so far.
Whew I stayed up waaaaaay too late. The amount of depth in this game is amazing. It feels like Human Revolutions hubs taken entirely to the next level. The level design is fantastic and it seems like there are always multiple routes and ways to solve a problem (even just in the sidequests!).
The apartment buildings and underground club in one of the sidequests are beautifully designer and it's a shame that most people will end up skipping them entirely.
Definitely my game of the year, if not the past few years. Environment wise, definitely my top 3 of all time easily.
Thanks for the reception guys! Team here is really happy it's being well received.
I do find it strange there's an anti-DLC discussion on what's largely a professional game dev website. I don't expect the comments section of Kotaku, or Youtube to understand this, but Polycount is considered to be a professional website, and we should have some knowledge of this.
Let me break it down: Pre-Orders are good indicators for how well a game will sell. Whether you believe in them as a consumer or not isn't what i'm talking about. As a developer I am merely pointing out it is an excellent barometer for projected sales.
When a publisher can reliably estimate what what the sales will be, they can confidently double down on additional content, or a sequel or something to carry over the staff until the next project is ready to ramp up.
THE DLC IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS PLANNED FROM THE START.
The DLC is planned ONCE they know what the financial projections are. So it's not a cut mission, nor was it ever supported to be in the main story arc. It was planned and developed once we had a better idea of what the budget for it would be, and can therefore plan the scope accordingly.
Here's another piece of non-shocking information that should be common knowledge on Polycount:
3D ARTISTS AND DESIGNERS GET RAMPED DOWN FIRST, and 3D ARTISTS ARE RAMPED UP LAST. I was ramped off of Deus Ex: Mankind Divided back in February. The Character Art tasks were completed.
There was a small 'skeletal' team who planned and organized the scope of the DLC, who coordinated the ramp down times from DXMD with ramp-up for the DLC.
They outlined a roadmap of our tasks, using the same engine, same tools, without nearly as much programmer or tech support. DLC teams can largely be comprised of content creators like artists/writers/designers if it's done smartly (we're adding content, not a significant amount of new features, or new mechanics).
What this means as a developer is either a SELLABLE DLC gets made, or I sit around and do nothing, while the next project is being planned and designed, and grey-boxed. Also should note, the MAIN GAME has to burn on a disk (in some cases) a couple of month before it hits the shelves. A DLC literally does not have to be ready until the week before you submit, so there's a couple of months where DLC can be the only thing you work on, or nothing at all.
Thanks for the reception guys! Team here is really happy it's being well received.
I do find it strange there's an anti-DLC discussion on what's largely a professional game dev website. I don't expect the comments section of Kotaku, or Youtube to understand this, but Polycount is considered to be a professional website, and we should have some knowledge of this.
Let me break it down: Pre-Orders are good indicators for how well a game will sell. Whether you believe in them as a consumer or not isn't what i'm talking about. As a developer I am merely pointing out it is an excellent barometer for projected sales.
When a publisher can reliably estimate what what the sales will be, they can confidently double down on additional content, or a sequel or something to carry over the staff until the next project is ready to ramp up.
THE DLC IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS PLANNED FROM THE START.
The DLC is planned ONCE they know what the financial projections are. So it's not a cut mission, nor was it ever supported to be in the main story arc. It was planned and developed once we had a better idea of what the budget for it would be, and can therefore plan the scope accordingly.
Here's another piece of non-shocking information that should be common knowledge on Polycount:
3D ARTISTS AND DESIGNERS GET RAMPED DOWN FIRST, and 3D ARTISTS ARE RAMPED UP LAST. I was ramped off of Deus Ex: Mankind Divided back in February. The Character Art tasks were completed.
There was a small 'skeletal' team who planned and organized the scope of the DLC, who coordinated the ramp down times from DXMD with ramp-up for the DLC.
They outlined a roadmap of our tasks, using the same engine, same tools, without nearly as much programmer or tech support. DLC teams can largely be comprised of content creators like artists/writers/designers if it's done smartly (we're adding content, not a significant amount of new features, or new mechanics).
What this means as a developer is either a SELLABLE DLC gets made, or I sit around and do nothing, while the next project is being planned and designed, and grey-boxed. Also should note, the MAIN GAME has to burn on a disk (in some cases) a couple of month before it hits the shelves. A DLC literally does not have to be ready until the week before you submit, so there's a couple of months where DLC can be the only thing you work on, or nothing at all.
BTW doing nothing usually means you're laid off.
Oh.. I never thought of it that way.. Of course I didn't think that a bunch of men in suits came in and wanted to increase "the stock" by 5% and please the investors.
I actually thought it was a project that's made parallel to the main game.. uh.. when I say it out loud it kind of does sound illogical..
But eh.. yeah single use and microtransactions
I don't work in the game industry(yet!) So why is it that game publishers/studios do that? I mean it cheapens the experience and I can't seem to pin down why it exists. Is there something I'm missing?
I do find it strange there's an anti-DLC discussion on what's largely a professional game dev website. I don't expect the comments section of Kotaku, or Youtube to understand this, but Polycount is considered to be a professional website, and we should have some knowledge of this.
That's because the people complaining here about it have little to no working experience in the games industry or chances are in any media industry in general. Don't worry about them, the scrubs and trolls will always complain about something.
I wonder if people ever go to car dealerships and complain about additional features that cost extra and accuse the manufacturer of trying to sell them an incomplete experience.
I wonder if people ever go to car dealerships and complain about additional features that cost extra and accuse the manufacturer of trying to sell them an incomplete experience.
Car consumers and game consumers have different expectations.
Yeah but.. like I said in my earlier comment on this thread.. Isn't it far easier to just work around them, instead of trying to change their expectations?
Did anyone grab the retail PC version? I've heard conflicting info on how much data you get on the disks vs how much you have to download. After spending several days continuously downloading to get Doom, it'd be nice if I could get at least a significant portion of this game off the hard copy.
I don't understand the hatred for DLC, Season passes, micro transactions.
I always hear, "DLC should be on the disc". But why? Even if it was developed concurrently with the game, if there is enough content on the disc to warrant the price point and the DLC was meant to be extra from the get go and wasn't cut from the main game, what's the issue. Its their game, they decide how much content they need to put on the disc to warrant the purchase.
And I hear people complaining about microtransactions. I've never used them but I don't see the harm if they're cosmetic which is the case a lot of times. Evolve is a classic example. People lost their shit for cosmetic DLC. Why?! Its completely harmless. If people want to be nickel and dimed, then more power to them.
Listen, games are getting more expensive, If people want to bitch about frame rates, 30fps v 60fps, if they want better graphics and gameplay and still want game prices to not increase, then the money has to come from somewhere. And if they want to take advantage of some rich kid with more money than sense, then hats off to them.
People complain about season passes. I don't get it, the season pass will be there once the dlc is out, why are you complaining, no one is forcing you to buy it. And when the dlc is out, you can get it at a reduced price with the season pass, its a win win.
I love games but sometimes, I feel like there's too much of an over reaction about games in general.
AGoodFella, You do have very valid points. Games really are getting very expensive to make, no doubt about it.
But do try to understand the opposite side too. Games are expensive, but for many, if not most people, 60€ for game is a LOT of money. And i can kinda understand them, if i pay THAT much money, at least i expect to get full experience, as some would call it. And to pay on top of that 30€ extra? That makes it 90€ game. Sure noone is forcing you to pay it, and it's not something that you really need anyway, but with all AND microtransactions, i can see why many players think it's kinda getting out of hands or rather, them being exploited. Regardless of the dev cost, there's only so much people can afford to pay for games.
I heard not all MTs in this game are pur cosmetic, but are in one way or another, connected to the game, in a sense that it makes game easier or something. Someone who actually is playing the game, can say more about it (i plan to get it after i replay HR). That at least in some games, pc, but i'd rather not even go into mobile market, can lead to changes in game, since hey, you have to make at least some people to pay those MTs, otherwise, what's the point.
Many devs do this nicely, not really hurting gameplay, but that's not always the case. Not the same thing, but i almost stopped playing games on mobile, cause they are butchering gameplay to such a degree at lof times, that it's unplayable if you don't actually pay much more than you'd play for actually game in usual way (As in, one time pay). And that's what i think people are afraid of, and i can't really blame them.
So sure, you are not forced to, but people to have a feeling that what you once get as part of the vanilla game, they are now selling you as extra content, for rather high price too (+ MTs). Like, in case of mass effect 3 iirc (or was it 2?), where one of the day1 dlcs gave you party member, who's race is at the very core of the story. In such cases, i can get behind their reasonings.
But that's i think the main problem today; many devs can't really see totally undestand the average player, and vise versa, players can't really understand just how hard it is to make games, and how much it costs. Hence when some game needs minor visual downgrade, like in case of Witcher 3, everyone is going crazy over it, without really understand that things like this simply happens.
But yeah, reading about DE:MD and especially No man's sky, despite all that, i do feel like gamers really are getting a little overly angry all too fast.
Yeah, I get what you're saying. I think in a single player game, it doesn't even matter. You can buy praxis kits with real money and that's fine, if that's how you want to play. I won't do that but its single player, it doesn't affect anyone. As long as the way to earn them in game hasn't been nerfed.
In the end, despite all the angry manchildren on the intertubes, DLC do seem to sell well (blanket statement, but they wouldn't be made so universally if they sold badly). As is often the case, our perception of the consumer is skewed by the loud minority defecating into the net's comment sections..
I don't work in the game industry(yet!) So why is it that game publishers/studios do that? I mean it cheapens the experience and I can't seem to pin down why it exists. Is there something I'm missing?
Yup. You're missing a LOT of context. It's REALLY hard to ramp up a good team, and it's even harder to retain them.
When I joined Eidos, this job posting with was literally open for well over a year without a single qualified applicant. I had to be coerced by a lot of friends here in the studio to even apply. It was really difficult to find someone.
When a team gets ramped up, and the game does well, it's usually in the best interest of the studio to keep their senior staff around to work on the next game. They bring knowledge and experience pertinent on how to directly improve things.
It should be obvious that 3D Artists are the first to be ramped down (I won't get into that), but this is where it gets tricky: Seniors Staff are constantly being hit up by recruiters. If we don't know what we'll be working the months before we're ramped down, we will probably start replying back to those recruiters who are messaging us, and be gone.
So it's in the best interest of the Studio, to keep content creators (3D Artists, level designers, Audio etc) working in some capacity, to bridge the gap between Shipping the game, and production on the next game.
What can a game company do with a team of Artists, Designers, and Audio with very limited programming, tech, or engine support? We can make new levels, and new art but we can't make new mechanics, we can't creep new features, we likely can't re-design the weapon systems, or change how navigation works. We probably shouldn't rebalance anything, and we also probably shouldn't change the main campaign in any way.
So, unless you have a better suggestion, DLC is pretty much the obvious answer (DLC is NOT 'cut content' like deleted scenes from a movie or outtakes like the raging gamers would have you believe).
Thing is, keeping around staff is not cheap, and it's certainly not free. A team of Senior Designers and Artists require significant salary/ So what we're taking about is an expensive undertaking to make completely optional bonus-content made from scratch (It literally is Bonus Content), but needs to still break even in terms of profitability to tie us over until the next game.
Let me state the obvious with this. Game Studio spend well over $50 million on a AAA game. It's a HUGE risk huge reward scheme.
If ANY publisher felt that DLC would in any way raise the metacritic score by 1-tick, it would absolutely most definitely be in the main game. That 1% can mean HUGE monetary bonuses for the team, and can potentially offer major offset in sales. The difference between a 79 Metascore to an 81 Metascore is monumental for sales and marketing. An 85 Metascore is nearing GOTY territory which is a HUGE marketing boon. The difference of 1 point can often mean a sequel gets made or not.
I don't want to diminish the contributions by the DLC teams across the industry, but you have to realise DLC is NOT pertinent content that adds anything of significance to the main game. It's a small extension/expansion for people who really wanted to continue their experience and don't mind paying for it.
I don't work in the game industry(yet!) So why is it that game publishers/studios do that? I mean it cheapens the experience and I can't seem to pin down why it exists. Is there something I'm missing?
Yup. You're missing a LOT of context. It's REALLY hard to ramp up a good team, and it's even harder to retain them.
When I joined Eidos, this job posting with was literally open for well over a year without a single qualified applicant. I had to be coerced by a lot of friends here in the studio to even apply. It was really difficult to find someone.
When a team gets ramped up, and the game does well, it's usually in the best interest of the studio to keep their senior staff around to work on the next game. They bring knowledge and experience pertinent on how to directly improve things.
It should be obvious that 3D Artists are the first to be ramped down (I won't get into that), but this is where it gets tricky: Seniors Staff are constantly being hit up by recruiters. If we don't know what we'll be working the months before we're ramped down, we will probably start replying back to those recruiters who are messaging us, and be gone.
So it's in the best interest of the Studio, to keep content creators (3D Artists, level designers, Audio etc) working in some capacity, to bridge the gap between Shipping the game, and production on the next game.
What can a game company do with a team of Artists, Designers, and Audio with very limited programming, tech, or engine support? We can make new levels, and new art but we can't make new mechanics, we can't creep new features, we likely can't re-design the weapon systems, or change how navigation works. We probably shouldn't rebalance anything, and we also probably shouldn't change the main campaign in any way.
So, unless you have a better suggestion, DLC is pretty much the obvious answer (DLC is NOT 'cut content' like deleted scenes from a movie or outtakes like the raging gamers would have you believe).
Thing is, keeping around staff is not cheap, and it's certainly not free. A team of Senior Designers and Artists require significant salary/ So what we're taking about is an expensive undertaking to make completely optional bonus-content made from scratch (It literally is Bonus Content), but needs to still break even in terms of profitability to tie us over until the next game.
Let me state the obvious with this. Game Studio spend well over $50 million on a AAA game. It's a HUGE risk huge reward scheme.
If ANY publisher felt that DLC would in any way raise the metacritic score by 1-tick, it would absolutely most definitely be in the main game. That 1% can mean HUGE monetary bonuses for the team, and can potentially offer major offset in sales. The difference between a 79 Metascore to an 81 Metascore is monumental for sales and marketing. An 85 Metascore is nearing GOTY territory which is a HUGE marketing boon. The difference of 1 point can often mean a sequel gets made or not.
I don't want to diminish the contributions by the DLC teams across the industry, but you have to realise DLC is NOT pertinent content that adds anything of significance to the main game. It's a small extension/expansion for people who really wanted to continue their experience and don't mind paying for it.
I was asking about the microtransactions not the dlc I already know why DLC exists, it's mostly common sense.
I think the problem is that people don't understand the pipeline. If companies would just hold on to the DLC even for 2 weeks it would make a big difference then deploying it day 1. It's not the consumers responsibility to understand that, its the marketing teams. Alot of people will just see DLC day 1 and say well its done why couldn't it be sold with the package.
At any rate I'm excited to get my hands on it once the performance stuff get sorted, really want to use my new 1070 gtx :-) Game looks like tons of fun and congrats guys I've always been a massive fan of the style
But that's i think the main problem today; many devs can't really see totally undestand the average player, and vise versa, players can't really understand just how hard it is to make games, and how much it costs. Hence when some game needs minor visual downgrade, like in case of Witcher 3, everyone is going crazy over it, without really understand that things like this simply happens.
Here's the thing though. Most Devs DO understand the average gamer. They have far more data and info on player metrics and habits than the public does. A big problem (the biggest problem IMO) is the hardcore gamer (who happens to be the loudest segment), is not the average gamer but thinks they are. Im not saying its all on the public, but its less 50/50 and more 80/20 public these days.
I was asking about the microtransactions not the dlc I already know why DLC exists, it's mostly common sense.
Oh I apologize.
I personally hate game-breaking microtransactions, but really don't care if it's cosmetic or if you chose to ruin your single player experience.
Some people liked playing the original DOOM in God mode with infinite BFG. I don't think the devs really care about them, and if the publishers want them pay for that crap, they can go nuts.
I think the vocal gamer public raging about this are such a small minority.
IMHO There's a huge difference between the people who vote with their wallets, and people who rage about things online. I'm sure if there was any real detriment to the product, or if this lead to lower profitability, publishers would stop doing it.
I was asking about the microtransactions not the dlc I already know why DLC exists, it's mostly common sense.
Oh I apologize.
I personally hate game-breaking microtransactions, but really don't care if it's cosmetic or if you chose to ruin your single player experience.
Some people liked playing the original DOOM in God mode with infinite BFG. I don't think the devs really care about them, and if the publishers want them pay for that crap, they can go nuts.
I think the vocal gamer public raging about this are such a small minority.
IMHO There's a huge difference between the people who vote with their wallets, and people who rage about things online.
Your right it is, some people bang a really loud drum. I mean how many copies of the game did you sell vs some comments I'm sure is wildly skewed and does not even come close to representing the average base. Be proud of what you guys did !
Replies
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/deus-ex-mankind-divided-having-issues-on-pc-preord/1100-6442945/
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/all-the-deus-ex-mankind-divided-microtransactions-/1100-6442924/
well I sure made the right decision cancelling that pre order then.
lesson learned
Never ever preorder anything again.
even if you love the series..
It's a dick move by the "community" to have a tantrum, trash the brand name, and immediately refund your copy because you have the option to use microtransactions
I pre-ordered the game and I guess I have those items but I haven't even touched them yet. I really don't care at all.
Anyways, the game is absolutely beautiful and there is an insane amount to explore even in the first hour or two. I'm loving how much work was put into all the digital newspapers and data devices and how well it goes along with the story. So far, it's definitely one of my favorite games in the past few years!
The art book is great too. I'm really glad you all were able to show early concepts from Jensen as well as the other characters.
how can you not see the problem here?
on a more on topic note, i cant wait to play this, the art looks dope as hell and loved HR. probably gonna sink my teeth into this soon. I'll keep my mouth shut and not be a negative nancy until i get some decent hands on time and can formulate an actual opinion.
Games use to be sold complete, it just seems more and more companies take out park of the game to resell them. I'm not saying this is the case with Deus Ex but its a hard topic
I have worked on at least 5 games that have had DLC and not once was it something that was taken out of the main game and re-packaged as DLC. I don't think I have ever bought any DLC for any game, but I am not gonna sit here and bitch that it shouldn't exist. I would love to see some examples of AAA full price games that cannot be completed or are not fun without purchasing what people infer as mandatory microtransactions or dlc.
http://kotaku.com/deus-ex-mankind-divided-sure-has-beautiful-wood-1785708949
The funny part about comments on the cash shop praxis is that people shifted it towards cheating the things in, because fuck the man or whatever. Now people who hadn't thought about cheating are thinking about it now. Simply because it's now part of the game meta and presented as a game feature they feel is unobtainable, like it feeds into completionism somehow.
Having said that, cant wait to pick the game up in a week or so!
Any chance of getting any art dumps or breakdowns? Especially for the characters.
release the DLC one year or 6 months after the launch
Expecting your userbase to know something about the developing process and expecting them to be sympathetic is a bad plan.
a disturbingly large portion of the gaming community is composed of people who don't care about context
these are the same people who saw the removal of Tracer's pose in overwatch as "pandering to social justice warriors"
and think that anyone who says otherwise is also a stupid liberal idiot who worships anita sarkesian
but.. back to the topic
I know that in the first few months of release is when dlc is going to be 100% effective
but eh.. just to save face, just release it 6 months after.
I've streamed out the world multiple times, a lot of assets just never stream in, including what looks like the platform I need to access the combat tutorial.
There's also no save point in the first mission at all! They don't appear to allow manual or auto saves (or the fail...), so when I shut down after an hour to double check that my drivers were up to date, I lost all process.
I want to love you Deus Ex, but why must you hurt me so?
(and no, my machine is not min spec ;P)
I think I get what he means, my only bug with this so far was getting it on the day it came out and not being able to play it due to the day one patch which was 3.8 GB, which took til 10.30pm at night after starting it from getting home from work at 6. I don't have a bad internet speed but due to having the playstation in a different room to a modem so have to rely on its wireless which isn't great but whatever happened to picking up a game and being able to play straight away these days? It's not even like the game has a online multiplayer presence that needs to be fixed.
But would also like to say great game so far only played it for 2 hours so far and feel as though I've done nothing due to just exploring and trying to find everything I can !
I was worried about how well it would run given what I had read in the steam reviews but I'm finding it runs perfect on high settings on my i5-2400/GTX970.
Other things though feel like a serious step down from HR. Why can't you exit menus by pressing tab a second time? You have to press tab to open a menu then click the back button or hit escape to exit it... I also really cannot understand how anyone could think it was a good idea to put horizontal lens flares all over the hacking screen, they look remarkably like node connections which makes hacking pointlessly difficult on complex node graphs.
Minor complaints though, overall my experience has been great so far.
Maybe you already did that, as you said, heh
When off, its pleasant and nice looking but could do with a bit of sharpness. With it on, its "OMG turn it off, too much!"
Also, I think I've hit a bug with the augmentation disable/enabling. I can try to disable all my augs basically and still be "overloaded".
I think I may, however just have been doing it wrong. It was late at night.
Jensen looks great! Some of the NPC's......not so much. There is a wider gulf in both style and quality, between hero characters and npc/rando street civilians than even the previous game(which suffered from the same issue quite a bit).
Edit: 1 more thing...I feel like the walk speed and default mouse sensitivity are too high. Everything is just a little jittery and fast for me...maybe I'll get used to it as I play more. I found myself crouching while walking around the hub areas just to feel like I wasn't running everywhere.
The apartment buildings and underground club in one of the sidequests are beautifully designer and it's a shame that most people will end up skipping them entirely.
Definitely my game of the year, if not the past few years. Environment wise, definitely my top 3 of all time easily.
I do find it strange there's an anti-DLC discussion on what's largely a professional game dev website. I don't expect the comments section of Kotaku, or Youtube to understand this, but Polycount is considered to be a professional website, and we should have some knowledge of this.
Let me break it down:
Pre-Orders are good indicators for how well a game will sell. Whether you believe in them as a consumer or not isn't what i'm talking about. As a developer I am merely pointing out it is an excellent barometer for projected sales.
When a publisher can reliably estimate what what the sales will be, they can confidently double down on additional content, or a sequel or something to carry over the staff until the next project is ready to ramp up.
THE DLC IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS PLANNED FROM THE START.
The DLC is planned ONCE they know what the financial projections are. So it's not a cut mission, nor was it ever supported to be in the main story arc. It was planned and developed once we had a better idea of what the budget for it would be, and can therefore plan the scope accordingly.
Here's another piece of non-shocking information that should be common knowledge on Polycount:
3D ARTISTS AND DESIGNERS GET RAMPED DOWN FIRST, and 3D ARTISTS ARE RAMPED UP LAST.
I was ramped off of Deus Ex: Mankind Divided back in February. The Character Art tasks were completed.
There was a small 'skeletal' team who planned and organized the scope of the DLC, who coordinated the ramp down times from DXMD with ramp-up for the DLC.
They outlined a roadmap of our tasks, using the same engine, same tools, without nearly as much programmer or tech support. DLC teams can largely be comprised of content creators like artists/writers/designers if it's done smartly (we're adding content, not a significant amount of new features, or new mechanics).
What this means as a developer is either a SELLABLE DLC gets made, or I sit around and do nothing, while the next project is being planned and designed, and grey-boxed. Also should note, the MAIN GAME has to burn on a disk (in some cases) a couple of month before it hits the shelves. A DLC literally does not have to be ready until the week before you submit, so there's a couple of months where DLC can be the only thing you work on, or nothing at all.
BTW doing nothing usually means you're laid off.
Of course I didn't think that a bunch of men in suits came in and wanted to increase "the stock" by 5% and please the investors.
I actually thought it was a project that's made parallel to the main game.. uh.. when I say it out loud it kind of does sound illogical..
But eh.. yeah
single use and microtransactions
I don't work in the game industry(yet!)
So why is it that game publishers/studios do that? I mean it cheapens the experience and I can't seem to pin down why it exists.
Is there something I'm missing?
Isn't it far easier to just work around them, instead of trying to change their expectations?
I always hear, "DLC should be on the disc". But why? Even if it was developed concurrently with the game, if there is enough content on the disc to warrant the price point and the DLC was meant to be extra from the get go and wasn't cut from the main game, what's the issue. Its their game, they decide how much content they need to put on the disc to warrant the purchase.
And I hear people complaining about microtransactions. I've never used them but I don't see the harm if they're cosmetic which is the case a lot of times. Evolve is a classic example. People lost their shit for cosmetic DLC. Why?! Its completely harmless. If people want to be nickel and dimed, then more power to them.
Listen, games are getting more expensive, If people want to bitch about frame rates, 30fps v 60fps, if they want better graphics and gameplay and still want game prices to not increase, then the money has to come from somewhere. And if they want to take advantage of some rich kid with more money than sense, then hats off to them.
People complain about season passes. I don't get it, the season pass will be there once the dlc is out, why are you complaining, no one is forcing you to buy it. And when the dlc is out, you can get it at a reduced price with the season pass, its a win win.
I love games but sometimes, I feel like there's too much of an over reaction about games in general.
You do have very valid points. Games really are getting very expensive to make, no doubt about it.
But do try to understand the opposite side too. Games are expensive, but for many, if not most people, 60€ for game is a LOT of money. And i can kinda understand them, if i pay THAT much money, at least i expect to get full experience, as some would call it. And to pay on top of that 30€ extra? That makes it 90€ game. Sure noone is forcing you to pay it, and it's not something that you really need anyway, but with all AND microtransactions, i can see why many players think it's kinda getting out of hands or rather, them being exploited. Regardless of the dev cost, there's only so much people can afford to pay for games.
I heard not all MTs in this game are pur cosmetic, but are in one way or another, connected to the game, in a sense that it makes game easier or something. Someone who actually is playing the game, can say more about it (i plan to get it after i replay HR).
That at least in some games, pc, but i'd rather not even go into mobile market, can lead to changes in game, since hey, you have to make at least some people to pay those MTs, otherwise, what's the point.
Many devs do this nicely, not really hurting gameplay, but that's not always the case. Not the same thing, but i almost stopped playing games on mobile, cause they are butchering gameplay to such a degree at lof times, that it's unplayable if you don't actually pay much more than you'd play for actually game in usual way (As in, one time pay). And that's what i think people are afraid of, and i can't really blame them.
So sure, you are not forced to, but people to have a feeling that what you once get as part of the vanilla game, they are now selling you as extra content, for rather high price too (+ MTs). Like, in case of mass effect 3 iirc (or was it 2?), where one of the day1 dlcs gave you party member, who's race is at the very core of the story. In such cases, i can get behind their reasonings.
But that's i think the main problem today; many devs can't really see totally undestand the average player, and vise versa, players can't really understand just how hard it is to make games, and how much it costs. Hence when some game needs minor visual downgrade, like in case of Witcher 3, everyone is going crazy over it, without really understand that things like this simply happens.
But yeah, reading about DE:MD and especially No man's sky, despite all that, i do feel like gamers really are getting a little overly angry all too fast.
And sorry for the long post. :P
It's REALLY hard to ramp up a good team, and it's even harder to retain them.
When I joined Eidos, this job posting with was literally open for well over a year without a single qualified applicant. I had to be coerced by a lot of friends here in the studio to even apply. It was really difficult to find someone.
When a team gets ramped up, and the game does well, it's usually in the best interest of the studio to keep their senior staff around to work on the next game. They bring knowledge and experience pertinent on how to directly improve things.
It should be obvious that 3D Artists are the first to be ramped down (I won't get into that), but this is where it gets tricky:
Seniors Staff are constantly being hit up by recruiters. If we don't know what we'll be working the months before we're ramped down, we will probably start replying back to those recruiters who are messaging us, and be gone.
So it's in the best interest of the Studio, to keep content creators (3D Artists, level designers, Audio etc) working in some capacity, to bridge the gap between Shipping the game, and production on the next game.
What can a game company do with a team of Artists, Designers, and Audio with very limited programming, tech, or engine support? We can make new levels, and new art but we can't make new mechanics, we can't creep new features, we likely can't re-design the weapon systems, or change how navigation works. We probably shouldn't rebalance anything, and we also probably shouldn't change the main campaign in any way.
So, unless you have a better suggestion, DLC is pretty much the obvious answer (DLC is NOT 'cut content' like deleted scenes from a movie or outtakes like the raging gamers would have you believe).
Thing is, keeping around staff is not cheap, and it's certainly not free. A team of Senior Designers and Artists require significant salary/ So what we're taking about is an expensive undertaking to make completely optional bonus-content made from scratch (It literally is Bonus Content), but needs to still break even in terms of profitability to tie us over until the next game.
Let me state the obvious with this. Game Studio spend well over $50 million on a AAA game. It's a HUGE risk huge reward scheme.
If ANY publisher felt that DLC would in any way raise the metacritic score by 1-tick, it would absolutely most definitely be in the main game. That 1% can mean HUGE monetary bonuses for the team, and can potentially offer major offset in sales. The difference between a 79 Metascore to an 81 Metascore is monumental for sales and marketing. An 85 Metascore is nearing GOTY territory which is a HUGE marketing boon. The difference of 1 point can often mean a sequel gets made or not.
I don't want to diminish the contributions by the DLC teams across the industry, but you have to realise DLC is NOT pertinent content that adds anything of significance to the main game. It's a small extension/expansion for people who really wanted to continue their experience and don't mind paying for it.
I was asking about the microtransactions not the dlc
I already know why DLC exists, it's mostly common sense.
At any rate I'm excited to get my hands on it once the performance stuff get sorted, really want to use my new 1070 gtx :-) Game looks like tons of fun and congrats guys I've always been a massive fan of the style
Im not saying its all on the public, but its less 50/50 and more 80/20 public these days.
I personally hate game-breaking microtransactions, but really don't care if it's cosmetic or if you chose to ruin your single player experience.
Some people liked playing the original DOOM in God mode with infinite BFG. I don't think the devs really care about them, and if the publishers want them pay for that crap, they can go nuts.
I think the vocal gamer public raging about this are such a small minority.
IMHO There's a huge difference between the people who vote with their wallets, and people who rage about things online. I'm sure if there was any real detriment to the product, or if this lead to lower profitability, publishers would stop doing it.
release DLC's a minimum of a month later. BOOM.