So I can't find a place to ask questions about toolbag 2 errors. So I'm just going to post up in here.
Using xNormal to bake and xNormals tangent space to view my maps in toolbag, but they are displaying broken in toolbag and correct in xNormal. The image below shows rather harsh black tips on the ends of the spikes on this hand. The errors only show in toolbag 2, using both the marmoset and xNormal tangent bias.
Has anyone run into this error before? Does anyone know where the proper place to put this would be? I want to show off all my pretty stuff in toolbag as well, but if I can't get it to properly display normals...well, such errors, much wow...sigh.
I'm a bit confused about the PBR workflow. I understand how metalness, albedo, and roughness work; but without a specular map, how does one control the brightness of the highlights? I know in theory the rougher the highlight, the weaker it will be. I also know that the darker the albedo is, the more the specularity stands out. But in my mind, those can't be the only ways. Seems like that would take a lot of control away from the artist.
Am I missing something really obvious, or is this the case?
So the way the metalness thing works is basically this:
A. Your albedo map is both your diffuse and spec map
B. The metanless map defines which sections are metal and which are not. But what its really doing is the more metal it is, the more it darkens the diffuse and pulls the specular intensity and color from the albedo. Black values in the metalness map represent non-metals, and for those, a low, fixed specular intensity is used (I don't remember the value off hand).
However, If you use mid-values in the metalness mask you can sort of hack it into doing what you want. You don't need to stick to black or white. But then it will pull the spec color from there as well, which works for things like Christmas ornaments, but not really for glossy plastics.
But really, if you want fine control over the specular color and specular intensity for non-metals, you shouldn't be using the metalness function, you should use the standard blinn-phong, as that will let you do exactly that. With energy conservation on, and a bright spec intensity value with blinn-phong, it will basically work the same as the metalness thing (ie: it will darken the diffuse to make it appear more metal-ish)
here is some highpoly rendering test, roughly 500k tri.
Is it possible to render 16 bit normalmaps in TB2 (while preserving the color depth)? I tried but it seemed to render it with 8 bit depth only (I get these kind of problems). I cross checked the normalmap in Blender and there it renders smoothly without any kind of artifacts.
Is there a way to zero out a camera to so that it is looking straigth/level in one direction? The transform options seem to only affect the gizmo, not the camera itself.
Because at low FOV's, the movement/rotation becomes very sensitive wich makes it kind of hard to do it manually.
@papagersi
I think people have put 5 million tris in Marmo2 and have it work fine.
Do you have shadows on? AO and SSR will darken the inside of the mouth. There's no GI in Marmo2, so all of the lighting will be coming from the HDR cubemap. Shadows, AO, and SSR will all help darken it a bit.
I've had a 90 million poly model (in multiple chunks) in TB2, varified as i did it over google hangout. it only crashed when i started fucking around with things like AO and... when i turned on wireframe it died =[
I've had a 90 million poly model (in multiple chunks) in TB2, varified as i did it over google hangout. it only crashed when i started fucking around with things like AO and... when i turned on wireframe it died =[
yeah and that's just awsome :poly142: every body will be crashed with that much polygons, not TB2 though lol
and download the "Tropical Ruins" pano, the 8K (lat/long) file was making me lag very hard. Also, I'd have to clikc on anything twice just to make it "stick". Just so you know though, I just tested it on my PC at work and I am NOT getting the same issue. I'm only getting this issue on my PC at home. edit: Actually, I'm still getting the clicks not sticking bug with 8K. It takes 2 clicks for anything to be selected/pressed.
Interesting, does the machine youre having issues with have very low vram by any chance? I cant get this to reproduce with the 8k (jpeg file was the only 8k in that archive) or the 3K hdr. Now the clicking issue, when frame rate drops the UI becomes unresponsive (this is a known issue), are you sure this has something to do with the sky and not general low framerate issues? Does this happen in a blank scene with nothing else in it? If you can get me a scene file that reliably has the problem I will take a look, but unfortunately Im not able to reproduce it.
OBJ, but I tried FBX as well. The options I have for OBJ are: Groups, Point Groups, Materials, Smoothing, and Normals. I've never once touched those options though. For FBX, I tried to keep it down and use the bare minimum. I have Smoothing groups, and smooth mesh (not sure what that one does. Never noticed a difference) enabled. For the FBX file format, I have type set as "Binary" and Version set as "FBX 2014". (As a side note, trying to export an FBX from Maya with so many polygons is almost a certain crash for me.) I don't think it's the files themselves, really; but here is one of them, anyway: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30185090/HighMarmTest1_Joopson.obj (note: it's 62 mb) I tried loading it, and thought "What if I let it load while I'm out of my apartment?".. I came back 40 minutes later and it had loaded. So things do load, it just takes somewhere between 13 and 40 minutes to do so.
Thanks for the files. Unfortunately I have not been able to reproduce the loading slowness on any of the content that people have sent me. =( So a few things for anyone who is having file loading issues: Do you have a low amount of ram? Do you have a bunch of other programs open taking up all of your ram when youre trying to load the files? Anything else ?
On further testing my earlier numbers were a little optimistic (wrong). A 800k tris model took ~7min to import. During this time taskmanager showed toolbag having no significant memory/disk usage, but 25% cpu usage (so 100% of one core).
This was an FBX from modo with UV's. An OBJ took a similar amount of time. Collada didn't even load (nothing would happen). If I delete the UV's, it still takes a long time. Saving as 2010 fbx in ASCII format didn't seem to change anything, nor did triangulating before export. FBX export settings were save geometry, materials, morph maps, edge smoothing, animation. Interestingly enough if I disable save materials, the export will fail. Here's the mesh I was testing with. (13mb)
Thanks, I cant get this one to repro either (see above), but Ill send some of these files to our engineers to look at.
edit: Found a crash: If you have an image's options open in tb2, and then open a new scene, the options for the image isn't automatically closed. If you press Okay on the option window, tb2 will crash.
Interesting, Im not getting this crash, it may have been fixed with 2.01, are you still getting it with the latest build?
Can anyone help me out with the " Outline " feature it makes a colored outline around your mesh in the first Marmoset, anyone know how i can get the same effect?
This feature is not currently in TB2, if there is enough interest we may add it with a future update.
Sorry but I dont get the result that I would like to have in the turntable, after testing all possibilities. Maybe I was bit unclear. Lets say I place a light on the left of my character on a pedestal. Shadow is casted to the right. I would like to have a turntable anim in which my objects rotate but the shadow is always casted to the right. Hope I was clear Thx
Ah ok. Try dragging your manually created light into the sky group, this way it shouldnt rotate when turntable style is set to scene. This should do what you want.
Bug: earlier today had transform gizmo bug, I saw a while ago posted by somebody in beta thread. When you rotate model a bit using gizmo, and after imputing correct rotation into the transform section, causing model to spaz in the wrong direction. Though my geometry is not a "child" of any other object in the scene. I tried to force unparent it (though as I said its not really parented to anything) geometry will show actual rotation I have done to it before. So it seems like geometry acting as if there is a hidden parent that screws up the rotation.
Any chance of getting a duplicate mesh option? I know you can reimport a duplicate and move it. But ugghh so lazy. Be nice to duplicate a mesh if you want to show multiple angles at once.
Pretty much everyone has asked for this, I think its safe to say this will get in soon, probably with the next update.
I am really new to PBR and I was wondering, do we still need to "neutralise" albedo (diffuse) textures with inverted hue specular for non metals? Or is that now thing of the past?
No, there should be no need to do this as the renderer is gamma correct.
Not sure if this has been answered, but is it planned in the future to have the ability to import camera animations from max and maya? Would be great for those that are planning a environment.
We dont have any official plans yet, but we do plan to add animation support in a free update sometime in the future. No ETA yet or anything, this is probably more of a long term thing than something you can expect to see in the short term. We want to do animation well, so were going take our time with it.
also, notice how the backfaces are darkened when cast shadow is on. with shadows off, both front faces and back faces render with same lighting but with shadows on, the back faces seem to self shadow as well. if someone else can download the test files i posted and see if this is not a GPU specific issue that would be great.
EDIT: since the update i am getting this weird clipping that shows up depending on the distance and angle
Interesting, do you have any sort of tessellation on this mesh? I know Ive seen issues like that with tess on, if so can you turn it off and see if you have the same issue? If this is reproducible, can you get me the scene? Thanks
Hum I think I misexplain what I wanted to mean : I know where to load the vector displacement but what I mean is that I'm trying to set up from zbrush for to get a perfect vector displacement for marmoset.... Which mean I'm trying to get these perfect sphere stuff...
Hi, I just ran the VD diagnostic thing, it looks like #19 from zbrush, and scale center set to 0 set to in marmoset gives the best results.
Hey EQ, this scene contains a plane that has Camera 2 setup precisely at the right angle so that you guys can see the tearing happening. Also that plane has zeroed out rotations, if you try to move it inside outliner it will "unparent" itself from an invisible node that hides geometry true rotations. Im not sure how to reproduce it from scratch though. Hope that helps!
Great program, just jumping in for the first minute tells me that a lot has changed from the 1.1. Just one thing: are all the UV seams automatically 'split'? I didn't notice seam problems from 1.10, and I didn't harden the UV seams before: is it normal to harden the seams? Forgive my lack of knowledge in this matter.
Baked with xNormal, setup the xNormal basis in toolbag2. First one without any maps applied, second image with normal map applied. These edges are set to soft in my 3d application.
Toolbag should not split edges automatically. Vertex normals are loaded directly from the file that you import. Make sure that vertex normals are being exported from your app of choice. Let me know what file format, and where youre exporting from if you guys still have issues with this.
Using xNormal to bake and xNormals tangent space to view my maps in toolbag, but they are displaying broken in toolbag and correct in xNormal. The image below shows rather harsh black tips on the ends of the spikes on this hand. The errors only show in toolbag 2, using both the marmoset and xNormal tangent bias. Has anyone run into this error before? Does anyone know where the proper place to put this would be? I want to show off all my pretty stuff in toolbag as well, but if I can't get it to properly display normals...well, such errors, much wow...sigh.
The XNormal tangent basis isnt quite as perfect as the Maya or Max one yet, theres an issue we still need to fix with it. If you can, for now bake your normal maps in Max or Maya for the best results.
I get these kind of problems). I cross checked the normalmap in Blender and there it renders smoothly without any kind of artifacts.
What file format are you using? I think there were some problems with out TIFF loader only loading 8 bit even with 16bit files. If using TIFF, try re-saving the file as a PSD, should fix it.
I did a quick test with decimated mesh with Marmoset2 the polycount is about 200k. Q1. I just wonder how many polygoncount TB2 can manage? Q2. I put two omni lit. don't you think that would be darker inside of mouth area?
Q1: Many, it really depends on your specific video card. If you have a Titan or something, in the tens of millions - easily. With older cards, less. It also depends on how many lights, your DOF settings etc so there is no hard number. Q. Shadows are off by default when you create a point light, make sure to turn them on. Also try on AO and turn local reflections to elimination strange reflections.
ok, i think i found which setting it can work fine : it's #7 but i noticed one problem : when i rotate the light, my model become very squishy !
Interesting, #19 definitely looks like the best one to me with the diagnostic tool.
Is there any change you could get me a copy of your scene, and the vector displacement map you've baked out? Better yet if you can get one with both #19 and #7 exported.
Hey EQ, this scene contains a plane that has Camera 2 setup precisely at the right angle so that you guys can see the tearing happening. Also that plane has zeroed out rotations, if you try to move it inside outliner it will "unparent" itself from an invisible node that hides geometry true rotations. Im not sure how to reproduce it from scratch though. Hope that helps!
EQ, I have 8 gb of RAM in my computer. Marmoset doesn't seem to greatly increase strain on the RAM, it hovers around 4.76 GB in use, with or without my loading a high-poly mesh. Closing Marmoset entirely lowers it to around 4.38 GB in use. And CPU usage stays pretty low during the whole process.
This is with Windows Media Player and Chrome open, so nothing particularly greedy.
On its own, toolbag uses around 29 mb of RAM, freshly opened. And 366 mb when I'm trying to load a large mesh.
So a few things for anyone who is having file loading issues: Do you have a low amount of ram? Do you have a bunch of other programs open taking up all of your ram when youre trying to load the files? Anything else ?
8gb of ram, plenty free when trying to load a model. Nothing else hardware wise I can think of that's out of the ordinary. 2gb vram too. AMD beta drivers (7870), win8 x64..
Interesting, Im not getting this crash, it may have been fixed with 2.01, are you still getting it with the latest build?
Sure, just checked in 2.01 and its been fixed.
The features I'm currently missing the most from tb1 are being able to toggle light icons and snap camera. I'd also really like if there were a way to tile textures. Maybe even axis independent, so I could tile just across X for example. Pretty handy in knald for example to check how a texture tiles quickly.
For those with XNormal normal map problems, try turning off the sRGB color space and turning on Scale and Bias. Solved all of my problems instantly.
For normal maps sRGB should definitively be off, and scale and bias should definitely be on. Let me know if these aren't set that way by default when you load a texture for some reason.
It was originally, but after some time, it stopped being default. Zero idea how it wasn't like that by default. Uninstalled then reinstalled, and it's default now.
I was talking to a mate who was using Toolbag, and he ran into the same problem. He thought that, because the preview of the image looked light, turning on sRGB might be more 'correct'. Turns out it was because he turned off Scale and Bias too, and that was stuffing his stuff up completely.
I love this so far. It's so fast and easy to get nice results. I made this beach texture from just something off CG Textures and using nDo2. I know it's not the best thing but I love how the displacement looks and all the settings you can mess around with. ~10 mins of work, ~10 mins of tinkering in Marmoset.
A suggestion that occurred to me just now. It would be super nice to be able to group materials on the right in a similar fashion to how we group stuff on the left in the scene organizer. Also I know it's been stated before but another plus 1 for duplicating things in the scene organizer.
Replies
Baked with xNormal, setup the xNormal basis in toolbag2.
First one without any maps applied, second image with normal map applied.
These edges are set to soft in my 3d application.
Using xNormal to bake and xNormals tangent space to view my maps in toolbag, but they are displaying broken in toolbag and correct in xNormal. The image below shows rather harsh black tips on the ends of the spikes on this hand. The errors only show in toolbag 2, using both the marmoset and xNormal tangent bias.
Has anyone run into this error before? Does anyone know where the proper place to put this would be? I want to show off all my pretty stuff in toolbag as well, but if I can't get it to properly display normals...well, such errors, much wow...sigh.
Am I missing something really obvious, or is this the case?
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1961639&postcount=762
here is some highpoly rendering test, roughly 500k tri.
Because at low FOV's, the movement/rotation becomes very sensitive wich makes it kind of hard to do it manually.
And while I'm here, some more TB2 work:
I did a quick test with decimated mesh with Marmoset2
the polycount is about 200k.
Q1. I just wonder how many polygoncount TB2 can manage?
Q2. I put two omni lit. don't you think that would be darker inside of mouth area?
I think people have put 5 million tris in Marmo2 and have it work fine.
Do you have shadows on? AO and SSR will darken the inside of the mouth. There's no GI in Marmo2, so all of the lighting will be coming from the HDR cubemap. Shadows, AO, and SSR will all help darken it a bit.
yeah and that's just awsome :poly142: every body will be crashed with that much polygons, not TB2 though lol
Without turning on AO, there was no chugging at all, my GPU fan got a little louder, but not anything crazy. with AO on it started to chug.
and then i turned on wireframe.
and then it crashed, and everyone was sad =[
Interesting, does the machine youre having issues with have very low vram by any chance? I cant get this to reproduce with the 8k (jpeg file was the only 8k in that archive) or the 3K hdr.
Now the clicking issue, when frame rate drops the UI becomes unresponsive (this is a known issue), are you sure this has something to do with the sky and not general low framerate issues? Does this happen in a blank scene with nothing else in it?
If you can get me a scene file that reliably has the problem I will take a look, but unfortunately Im not able to reproduce it.
Not currently, this is something we will likely add in the future if there is enough interest in it.
Thanks for the files. Unfortunately I have not been able to reproduce the loading slowness on any of the content that people have sent me. =(
So a few things for anyone who is having file loading issues:
Do you have a low amount of ram?
Do you have a bunch of other programs open taking up all of your ram when youre trying to load the files?
Anything else ?
Thanks, I cant get this one to repro either (see above), but Ill send some of these files to our engineers to look at.
Thanks, Ill get this logged.
Interesting, Im not getting this crash, it may have been fixed with 2.01, are you still getting it with the latest build?
This feature is not currently in TB2, if there is enough interest we may add it with a future update.
Sorry, no but the HDR image based lighting content that was in TB1 is no longer compatible with TB2.
Ah ok. Try dragging your manually created light into the sky group, this way it shouldnt rotate when turntable style is set to scene. This should do what you want.
Interesting, I thought we had the transform issues sorted. Is this reproducible? If so can you explain the steps required to reproduce it? Thanks
Pretty much everyone has asked for this, I think its safe to say this will get in soon, probably with the next update.
No, there should be no need to do this as the renderer is gamma correct.
We dont have any official plans yet, but we do plan to add animation support in a free update sometime in the future. No ETA yet or anything, this is probably more of a long term thing than something you can expect to see in the short term. We want to do animation well, so were going take our time with it.
Thanks for the test scene, well look into this.
Interesting, do you have any sort of tessellation on this mesh? I know Ive seen issues like that with tess on, if so can you turn it off and see if you have the same issue?
If this is reproducible, can you get me the scene?
Thanks
Thats a new one, can you save this scene with the camera at that position so I can have a look at it? Thanks
Hi, I just ran the VD diagnostic thing, it looks like #19 from zbrush, and scale center set to 0 set to in marmoset gives the best results.
This page explains how to set the correct method in the import/export settings: http://docs.pixologic.com/user-guide/3d-modeling/exporting-your-model/vector-displacement-maps/
Let me know if this works.
hummm look like it's not enough
Hey EQ, this scene contains a plane that has Camera 2 setup precisely at the right angle so that you guys can see the tearing happening. Also that plane has zeroed out rotations, if you try to move it inside outliner it will "unparent" itself from an invisible node that hides geometry true rotations. Im not sure how to reproduce it from scratch though. Hope that helps!
Toolbag should not split edges automatically. Vertex normals are loaded directly from the file that you import. Make sure that vertex normals are being exported from your app of choice.
Let me know what file format, and where youre exporting from if you guys still have issues with this.
The XNormal tangent basis isnt quite as perfect as the Maya or Max one yet, theres an issue we still need to fix with it.
If you can, for now bake your normal maps in Max or Maya for the best results.
We will look into tiling functionality at some point in the future. Exactly how it will work is still up in the air.
sRGB can be toggled in the per-texture options bit, press the option button next to the texture input in the material editor.
What file format are you using? I think there were some problems with out TIFF loader only loading 8 bit even with 16bit files. If using TIFF, try re-saving the file as a PSD, should fix it.
Q1: Many, it really depends on your specific video card. If you have a Titan or something, in the tens of millions - easily. With older cards, less. It also depends on how many lights, your DOF settings etc so there is no hard number.
Q. Shadows are off by default when you create a point light, make sure to turn them on. Also try on AO and turn local reflections to elimination strange reflections.
Currently there is only a UV selector option for the AO map. We may look into adding this to more texture inputs if there is a lot of interest.
Interesting, #19 definitely looks like the best one to me with the diagnostic tool.
Is there any change you could get me a copy of your scene, and the vector displacement map you've baked out? Better yet if you can get one with both #19 and #7 exported.
Thanks
Thanks, I'll have a look at it.
http://www.marmoset.co/toolbag/learn/getting-started
This is with Windows Media Player and Chrome open, so nothing particularly greedy.
On its own, toolbag uses around 29 mb of RAM, freshly opened. And 366 mb when I'm trying to load a large mesh.
Sure, just checked in 2.01 and its been fixed.
The features I'm currently missing the most from tb1 are being able to toggle light icons and snap camera. I'd also really like if there were a way to tile textures. Maybe even axis independent, so I could tile just across X for example. Pretty handy in knald for example to check how a texture tiles quickly.
For normal maps sRGB should definitively be off, and scale and bias should definitely be on. Let me know if these aren't set that way by default when you load a texture for some reason.
I was talking to a mate who was using Toolbag, and he ran into the same problem. He thought that, because the preview of the image looked light, turning on sRGB might be more 'correct'. Turns out it was because he turned off Scale and Bias too, and that was stuffing his stuff up completely.
BTW, what does the Scale and Bias checkbox do?
it seems, the only options so far are rotation and position.
thanks for the clarification - I really hope it gets added as soon as possible.:)
Also, any plans on making Toolbag2 GoZ enabled?
Yeah, i saw this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPuxeouiTrU
He said "...This model contains 1.2mil poly count decimated from zbrush, only detail normal and diffuse are used..."
No idea about that. did he use color vector map on that 1.2 poly decimated from Zbrush? :poly142:
he will have generated uv's inside zbrush, and then exported polypaint to diffuse.
yeah now i know that "decimate" can do with the existing UV (there is a option button keep UVs) thank you :poly136: