This might stir some pots or be taken the wrong way, or just be redundant, haha, maybe... But Im going to say it because I think it sort of needs to be said.
I think having any entitlement or holding valve to any type of standard while submitting items/expectations about what will be accepted will automatically lead to disappointment. (99.999% of the time.)
The workshop is too volatile to try to have a science or reason behind things that happen/items that get accepted, sure there are trends, but its too random to be able to say anythong for certain. I think grade A artists who constantly (key word, constantly) make submissions, "'make it work" persay because valve feels like they understand the art direction, and they are known well enough that its a safe bet, but not certain at all., and there are enougj pieces at this rate of production that if something doesnt get in, its not a heart break.
I like the idea of brainstorming ways to potentially improve the experience in the submitting stage, as well as sharing experices and knowledge, but its never been valves duty to make a fair experience for accepting/submitting items. (This is said with the idea of "fair experience" being reasonable. IE, not buying votes ect. (But then even votes dont matter, right?))
Bottom line, the only sure fire way to increase your odds of acceptance is to increase your workflow/production hours/items submitted. (This is that .001% that might not lead to frustration. MAYBE)
This is definately risky buisness, and a good way to get frustrated about it is to pick up expectations and lose focus on the goal, "make killer art."
This is all quite reasonable, I don't think you would be upsetting anyone.
I agree that it isn't Valve's duty to give everyone an equal chance, you have to make it for yourself. My only suggestions really would be to make the experience better for every contributor and every user, a more streamlined system for everyone's benefit.
I also think it is unlikely and I would much prefer it if some more work was put into the performance of the steam client in general.
You are not stirring my pot at all. My point is that it is as it is, but it could stand to be improved. I will say this: when I posted my first item, I did quite well and was on page one without really trying, as well as my second item. Then not so good with the others, even though they had high approval - percentage-wise, so it might just be a matter of quality and quantity. I will keep cracking on. But, the thread is about how and why to improve the Workshop, and I think many here have had several good suggestions, and that is great. Is anything going to change? No. I don't think so, but one day it probably will see something happening.
I personally feel like Valve is striking a pretty good balance at the moment. After all, there are already many ways for an item to gain leverage :
- Thumbs up/Thumbs down/Neutral
- Written comments being counted
- Page views
And on top of that, Valve has its own secret formula to determine the 5-stars rating.
As far as I am concerned, the only thing that I think could be changed is the Thumb Down option, which I think should be removed altogether because it can be abused by trolls. In case of actual art theft the report button should be enough. And if someone just doesn't like an item, *not* thumbing it up should be enough.
And then at the end of the day, this is not a fully automated system anyways : there is still a human at the end of the pipe, sorting out submissions, deciding what to put in or not, and deciding the cash value and rarity of an item being accepted.
I think the only "not so great" area is the down time after an item submission, during which the artist just doesn't know what is going to happen. I honestly still don't know what to think about this. It's definitely a rough point, but I doubt that there is anything that can be done about it, since items can idle for months before being accepted ... which is still better than being downright rejected and taken out of the system forever.
One thing is certain tho : at this point in the life of the workshop, just making a "pretty" armor item with the average WoW-style thick borders and the usual swirls and dents is not enough. There needs to be something original about it, either adding to the lore of the character or spinning him/her/it in a nicely unexpected direction while still being visually fitting. Which I think is a fantastic thing, as this is the most interesting part of any design process.
Furthermore, now is the time to really think out of the box in terms of bundles, packs, and so on. And one shouldn't forget that there is always the "other" kind of submission, outside of the safe boundaries of hero gear, wards and couriers. There is a lot of potential here, even if it is, of course, a little bit risky.
Yeah how DO we actually get Valve to add service providers? Just send em a bunch of emails?
I would totally suggest Ace-Angel, though I've yet to use those shaders. And I think we should suggest the Marmoset guys for adding the Dota2 shader to Toolbag
Marmoset are already included. I noticed that when u submit an item there is a section clearly marked for service providers. You can make a suggestion via there.
Hey everyone, I'd like to echo my thoughts on this discussion as I'm a recent, budding artist joining the Dota 2 Workshop community and feel I should express similar thoughts (that I happened to post on the dev.dota2.com forum as well).
I definitely feel like exposure is the hardest thing to come by and agree with two_larsens that the workshop isn't made to handle it's current state as best as it can. It's also incredibly discouraging to start out because - indeed as has been noted - you are competing with professional artists seemingly on their downtime or "between jobs". The only potential exposure are themed items (for holidays/events) or items which aren't so easy to create/are not in excess (like announcer packs, for example).
It feels and seems like many of the professional artists working on items are now dedicated Workshop contributors and indeed some are more dedicated and professional than others. Taking on the workshop as someone unknown and fresh is basically impossible; people are expecting so much more now. First it was weapon models, then sets, now people are expecting loading screens and HUDs to go along with their weapons and sets. The 'big name' marketers aren't making it any easier either. I have yet to see them take up new artists or artists with little/no previous exposure which is quite disappointing.
I'm not trying to get people to sympathize with me, because it is what it is. But in its current state, the workshop is nothing more than a popularity contest and it's quite obvious to anyone starting out, looking in. And for those (like me) who are struggling to create revenue, we pretty much just get shunned by the immensity that the workshop has become and would get lucky to even see 500 views (let alone a helpful comment or two) after a month.
It's hard. It's really hard to get into the workshop successfully. There needs to be change, for better or for worse (at least, in my opinion).
I think it should be hard to get into the workshop. It should require dedication, hard work and a set amount of skills. I have a feeling that many people are starting off making items for DotA with little to no experience at all, and expect to get stuff accepted, then complain and says the system is unfair when things are not going their way. The workshop isn't for everyone, and you got to adapt to be successful.
I think it should be hard to get into the workshop. It should require dedication, hard work and a set amount of skills. I have a feeling that many people are starting off making items for DotA with little to no experience at all, and expect to get stuff accepted, then complain and says the system is unfair when things are not going their way. The workshop isn't for everyone, and you got to adapt to be successful.
That is true however, raising the bar every month is just difficult. For beginners aspiring to get something in-game is like running after someone who has had a head start and is faster than you.
GhostDetector, the game industry as a whole is super competitive. The Workshop is essentially a mini version of the industry. To get an item accepted is essentially 'getting a job'
I think the Workshop is actually harder than job hunting since you're competing against people worldwide instead of the people in just your country/state.
While there are some tangible things that should be changed in the Workshop like the way sets are presented and battling against votebots, the competition level should not be touched IMO
Don't think that if you're a beginner in 3D you'll be able to get an item accepted quickly, its the same as a job. You have to meet the skill requirements first, which right now is at a professional level in the Workshop
I don't think it should be easy. That's not the point. The point is discoverability in the workshop is governed by popularity rather than quality of work (usually) or otherwise curiosity. I am by no means a "professional" artist (I don't work for anyone at the moment, thus the freelancing), but I do have several years experience in 3D modeling and a decade of experience in more traditional forms of art. The issue is simple, yet complex to solve without creating more complications down the line.
The bottom line is, the workshop isn't fair for new people, regardless of their skill set. Professional artists with a group of followers will always have the better deal because of the way the Workshop is currently structured. If it was more like Greenlight with its queueing process, the grounds to workshop submission would likely change for the better of all participants.
The popular artists can still get their items up and into the eyes of the public. Nothing changes for them. But the newcomers would be able to have their work seen rather than sidelined due to lack of convenience or otherwise.
There is definitely room for improvement for the workshop to grow and mature and to be a better place for artists in general. It is not so, in it's current form.
Edit: Just to clarify, I'm just suggesting an alternative to submission discoverability. I'm not trying to complain from a personal level.
The design of the workshop is horrible and could improve on a lot of things, but if you make something good and have a nice presentation you will get votes, but you also need good timing. Sometimes the workshop is flooded with items and its better to wait to submit until it's cooled down.
As for people talking about workshop contributors with followers etc. Most of the people I think of when you say that are people who worked there ass off promoting there stuff and building that following. Those groups didn't just happen overnight.
p.s. I hate it when people complain about things being a "popularity contest" aka the app store, greenlight etc. Life is a popularity contest, which isn't a bad thing. Popularity, usually, but def not always(fucking kardashians), comes from being really good at something, and being noticed for it. If your not being noticed for what your doing yet, you need to look at your own work with a really critical unbiased eye and try to make improvements. It's really hard, but if it was easy, everybody would be doing it.
And yes as others have stated this is about as hard as it is to get a job in the industry, maybe a little more because of the global competition your facing.
...The point is discoverability in the workshop is governed by popularity rather than quality of work (usually) or otherwise curiosity....
...The bottom line is, the workshop isn't fair for new people, regardless of their skill set. Professional artists with a group of followers will always have the better deal because of the way the Workshop is currently structured. ..
I'll put this out there. I make a point of sorting through the workshop by newest entries rather than most popular so I can vote on stuff as it is submitted as opposed to adding to something with 10K votes in the bag. Even so, looking at the front page of the workshop right now, all of those entries look pretty solid. Three pages in, I'm still seeing some pretty good stuff. Even when I sort by new, most the stuff that looks good has 4 or more stars with the exception of new stuff that doesn't have enough votes to show a rating yet.
My point is, I'm not seeing work that looks awesome that is getting left by the wayside. Most the people you're seeing on the front page either worked their asses off promoting their work and gained a following and/or they're putting out quality assets. Their work speaks for itself and that's why it is there.
Maybe it would be better if the default page was the recently submitted instead of popular in order to force people to look at new stuff as opposed to "what's hot" or maybe it'd be better if in the client while waiting for match making it could show you items that have a low number of votes so they gained exposure. On the other hand depending on what people think, exposure is a double edged sword. It may just net you with a few hundred more downvotes.
I agree with praetus, quality will find a way to shine regardless if you're a super popular artist. I got my first item accepted maybe 2 months after I started doing stuff for the Workshop, I might have had 10 followers at the time. The only promotion I did was on here and Facebook, so maybe 50 more people voted for it between those two places.
And I'm far from the most popular artist on the Workshop but I have a couple 5 star items with over 1000 ratings. Quality will find an audience
that's what i was trying to say, way better way of putting it! I believe there are occasions of quality getting lost in a pile of trash, in some systems. I do not however think the workshop is a case in this matter, i see it as highly competitive ecosystem.
Replies
This is all quite reasonable, I don't think you would be upsetting anyone.
I agree that it isn't Valve's duty to give everyone an equal chance, you have to make it for yourself. My only suggestions really would be to make the experience better for every contributor and every user, a more streamlined system for everyone's benefit.
I also think it is unlikely and I would much prefer it if some more work was put into the performance of the steam client in general.
- Thumbs up/Thumbs down/Neutral
- Written comments being counted
- Page views
And on top of that, Valve has its own secret formula to determine the 5-stars rating.
As far as I am concerned, the only thing that I think could be changed is the Thumb Down option, which I think should be removed altogether because it can be abused by trolls. In case of actual art theft the report button should be enough. And if someone just doesn't like an item, *not* thumbing it up should be enough.
And then at the end of the day, this is not a fully automated system anyways : there is still a human at the end of the pipe, sorting out submissions, deciding what to put in or not, and deciding the cash value and rarity of an item being accepted.
I think the only "not so great" area is the down time after an item submission, during which the artist just doesn't know what is going to happen. I honestly still don't know what to think about this. It's definitely a rough point, but I doubt that there is anything that can be done about it, since items can idle for months before being accepted ... which is still better than being downright rejected and taken out of the system forever.
One thing is certain tho : at this point in the life of the workshop, just making a "pretty" armor item with the average WoW-style thick borders and the usual swirls and dents is not enough. There needs to be something original about it, either adding to the lore of the character or spinning him/her/it in a nicely unexpected direction while still being visually fitting. Which I think is a fantastic thing, as this is the most interesting part of any design process.
Furthermore, now is the time to really think out of the box in terms of bundles, packs, and so on. And one shouldn't forget that there is always the "other" kind of submission, outside of the safe boundaries of hero gear, wards and couriers. There is a lot of potential here, even if it is, of course, a little bit risky.
For example, if I choose Polycount as a service provider are they notified?
He deserves a cut without a doubt, so everyone who uses his shader lets recommend him.
I would totally suggest Ace-Angel, though I've yet to use those shaders. And I think we should suggest the Marmoset guys for adding the Dota2 shader to Toolbag
I definitely feel like exposure is the hardest thing to come by and agree with two_larsens that the workshop isn't made to handle it's current state as best as it can. It's also incredibly discouraging to start out because - indeed as has been noted - you are competing with professional artists seemingly on their downtime or "between jobs". The only potential exposure are themed items (for holidays/events) or items which aren't so easy to create/are not in excess (like announcer packs, for example).
It feels and seems like many of the professional artists working on items are now dedicated Workshop contributors and indeed some are more dedicated and professional than others. Taking on the workshop as someone unknown and fresh is basically impossible; people are expecting so much more now. First it was weapon models, then sets, now people are expecting loading screens and HUDs to go along with their weapons and sets. The 'big name' marketers aren't making it any easier either. I have yet to see them take up new artists or artists with little/no previous exposure which is quite disappointing.
I'm not trying to get people to sympathize with me, because it is what it is. But in its current state, the workshop is nothing more than a popularity contest and it's quite obvious to anyone starting out, looking in. And for those (like me) who are struggling to create revenue, we pretty much just get shunned by the immensity that the workshop has become and would get lucky to even see 500 views (let alone a helpful comment or two) after a month.
It's hard. It's really hard to get into the workshop successfully. There needs to be change, for better or for worse (at least, in my opinion).
That is true however, raising the bar every month is just difficult. For beginners aspiring to get something in-game is like running after someone who has had a head start and is faster than you.
I think the Workshop is actually harder than job hunting since you're competing against people worldwide instead of the people in just your country/state.
While there are some tangible things that should be changed in the Workshop like the way sets are presented and battling against votebots, the competition level should not be touched IMO
Don't think that if you're a beginner in 3D you'll be able to get an item accepted quickly, its the same as a job. You have to meet the skill requirements first, which right now is at a professional level in the Workshop
The bottom line is, the workshop isn't fair for new people, regardless of their skill set. Professional artists with a group of followers will always have the better deal because of the way the Workshop is currently structured. If it was more like Greenlight with its queueing process, the grounds to workshop submission would likely change for the better of all participants.
The popular artists can still get their items up and into the eyes of the public. Nothing changes for them. But the newcomers would be able to have their work seen rather than sidelined due to lack of convenience or otherwise.
There is definitely room for improvement for the workshop to grow and mature and to be a better place for artists in general. It is not so, in it's current form.
Edit: Just to clarify, I'm just suggesting an alternative to submission discoverability. I'm not trying to complain from a personal level.
p.s. I hate it when people complain about things being a "popularity contest" aka the app store, greenlight etc. Life is a popularity contest, which isn't a bad thing. Popularity, usually, but def not always(fucking kardashians), comes from being really good at something, and being noticed for it. If your not being noticed for what your doing yet, you need to look at your own work with a really critical unbiased eye and try to make improvements. It's really hard, but if it was easy, everybody would be doing it.
And yes as others have stated this is about as hard as it is to get a job in the industry, maybe a little more because of the global competition your facing.
I'll put this out there. I make a point of sorting through the workshop by newest entries rather than most popular so I can vote on stuff as it is submitted as opposed to adding to something with 10K votes in the bag. Even so, looking at the front page of the workshop right now, all of those entries look pretty solid. Three pages in, I'm still seeing some pretty good stuff. Even when I sort by new, most the stuff that looks good has 4 or more stars with the exception of new stuff that doesn't have enough votes to show a rating yet.
My point is, I'm not seeing work that looks awesome that is getting left by the wayside. Most the people you're seeing on the front page either worked their asses off promoting their work and gained a following and/or they're putting out quality assets. Their work speaks for itself and that's why it is there.
Maybe it would be better if the default page was the recently submitted instead of popular in order to force people to look at new stuff as opposed to "what's hot" or maybe it'd be better if in the client while waiting for match making it could show you items that have a low number of votes so they gained exposure. On the other hand depending on what people think, exposure is a double edged sword. It may just net you with a few hundred more downvotes.
And I'm far from the most popular artist on the Workshop but I have a couple 5 star items with over 1000 ratings. Quality will find an audience
that's what i was trying to say, way better way of putting it! I believe there are occasions of quality getting lost in a pile of trash, in some systems. I do not however think the workshop is a case in this matter, i see it as highly competitive ecosystem.