@belkun he just spammed with our set everywhere, and then, when items was on top workshop community made another votes. As u can see, items on the top of page getting so much votes.
@belkun he just spammed with our set everywhere, and then, when items was on top workshop community made another votes. As u can see, items on the top of page getting so much votes.
Its case similar cs:go weapon skins workshop. On CS:GO weapon skins workshop I always get spammed by any creators to vote their creation weapon skin on my page. Its too unfair for this.
Whoses to say they can't? If they choose to sacrifice a portion of their revenue share to hit a broader auidence, then why restrict it? It's their choice. Better yet, if that organization creates their own marketing videos for the cosmetic, in reguards to Dota2VO and even DotaCinema, then how are they doing anything wrong? They are still contributing a peice to that workshop entry, the only difference is they have access to a userbase of thousands of users.
It's a matter of handling it right. And in this situtation, I feel there was a huge misunderstanding more then anything else. Nikey said the reason Empire was even on the Pugna set was because Heaven set up the workshop artist with the player, in return Nikey sectioned off a small percent to him as a way to compensate him for his networking help. How did either party do anything wrong here?
The reason is because their using their influence to get blind votes. It's like having a celebrity getting paid to say that they like McDonalds regardless of the celebrity's opinion. Its also like paying off critics to say it is good, then everyone else would think its good just because they trust the critic in saying that it is good instead of having their own opinion.
I think that the dota 2 submissions are being voted based on the votes of influential by people in the community. It boils down to is, "I like this guy, he likes this, it must be good" - Upvote.
The reason is because their using their influence to get blind votes. It's like having a celebrity getting paid to say that they like McDonalds regardless of the celebrity's opinion. Its also like paying off critics to say it is good, then everyone else would think its good just because they trust the critic in saying it is good instead of having their own opinion.
I think that the dota 2 submissions are being voted based on the votes of influential by people in the community. It boils down to is, "I like this guy, he likes this, it must be good" - Upvote.
I completely agree, and i think you used the right comparison here. Upvoting something blindly creates the illusion that people like it. I think everyone here would like more of their items in the workshop, but I wouldn't like it if "paying" for advertisement became a necessity
I've got to say that I had no idea that this sort of thing was going on. It's kind of depressing enough seeing some great artwork get lost in the Workshop sometimes anyway, so to know there's any kind of vote "rigging" going on is a bit dis-heartening to hear.
Hopefully high quality art work and dedication still wins through at the end of the day though!
"Paying" for votes creates the illusion that votes alone will get the item in game. I'm wondering if any of those guys go around to less than stellar artists and do this and promise the item to get in game? Or if they just stick to the Vlads or Anuxis(not implicating either of them, just using them as examples of artists with a lot of presence in the workshop)
"Paying" for votes creates the illusion that votes alone will get the item in game. I'm wondering if any of those guys go around to less than stellar artists and do this and promise the item to get in game? Or if they just stick to the Vlads or Anuxis(not implicating either of them, just using them as examples of artists with a lot of presence in the workshop)
Not sure if it's a good sign or a bad sign, but I have not been approached by the vote trolls
That would not work I guess. There are many items that I would like to have in game, and not exactly I would like to purchase them myself... Also because some sets are added to store after even full year, that would be crazy to force people to wait this amount of time with pre-purchase money frozen. Also there could be some cases that I would pre-purchase one thing and in the meantime something other even cooler would show up, and that I would be stuck with thing that is not best in my opinion and so on.
On the other news, I have checked latest item from our dear scammer, not even 300 votes
That would not work I guess. There are many items that I would like to have in game, and not exactly I would like to purchase them myself... Also because some sets are added to store after even full year, that would be crazy to force people to wait this amount of time with pre-purchase money frozen. Also there could be some cases that I would pre-purchase one thing and in the meantime something other even cooler would show up, and that I would be stuck with thing that is not best in my opinion and so on.
On the other news, I have checked latest item from our dear scammer, not even 300 votes
:thumbup: this in general would not work with the structure of a f2p store like the dota store. Also most users dont even pay for items and just rely on drops for their items.
Honestly, I am not sure about that one. The whole pre-purchase thing is already a bit of a catastrophe when it comes to AAA games and I am not sure how such a system would help the user-created content scene. As a matter of fact I would think that at this point Valve already has some kind of reliable formula figured out linking thumbs ups numbers to sales numbers ...
Also ... wouldn't it create even *more* possibilities for scams ?
(btw I am not saying that it wont work for sure or that it would hurt the system - I just find the idea of set pre-orders a little bit ... unnecessary somehow ?)
(btw I am not saying that it wont work for sure of that it would hurt the system - I just find the idea of set pre-orders a little bit ... unnecessary somehow ?)
Especially considering that the max votes an item can get is around 10,000 to 15,000 on the workshop when the daily amount of players is at around 700,000.
I think the idea for pre-ordering is a very poor one. I really do. But hopefully the reasoning will make sense.
As the workshop stands, votes are merely a way for Valve to judge how popular an item might be - there is no commitment required from either voter or Valve to decide what items to include. Which means that they can include whatever items they wish to prioritise, whether they be tournament items, or items that really fit well into the game etc regardless of how popular they are.
If you let people pre-order though, then that is the users putting down cold hard cash and is a very heavy commitment. This is especially so considering that money which goes into the Steam wallet does not come out, which in turn is additional pressure for Valve to add items that are very popular. Over the last few months we've also seen that popularity does not necessarily equate to quality, and there are many sets and items that have been immensely popular that haven't been added to the game for one reason or another. Potential money made becomes an even more obvious factor in determining whether sets get into the game (potentially over other factors), as if it isn't big enough already.
All told I'd rather keep the workshop money and commitment free.
First, rather then a top rated, you get a queue. This way there can never be a way to shine above others. You're provided a pre-exisiting list randomized based off variables you set. By elimating that "top rated" factor, you immediately elminate any chance scammers selling votes will get involved since the whole thing is randomized.
For the workshop, I'd suggest limiting it to a few varibles;
Announcer
Courier
Ward
HudSkin
Loading Screen
Hero
Polycount
Nexon Contest
Sping2014
The Greenlit section could be used to quell that worry of wondering when an item will get implemented. I'd hope that each new patch where they release items, they'll also greenlight items for future patches.
And this.
This alone would be a massive improvement to the workshop. It's more or less a "lets pretend you want to buy this" button. The pre-order idea suggested earlier, is the same idea.
A rating merc caught in the wild, finally
The only time i encountered one on my alt account,
he mass downvoted my items when i told him to get out,
probably not a bot voting merc, but manually, it's enough to cheese an item.
I think downvote mercs are more problematics than upvote mercs. It takes only one downvote
to send you under several pages, and i highly suspect them to be
active on dota 2 WS right now.
What i suggest for the voting system:
-Items related to the 3 most played hero of a player appears in priority in the workshop gallery
-Items that suffer low views get displayed for review in the searching queue of the game (where you can see the set pictures and the crafting minigame)
-Diminishing returns, the more same voters on the same artists, the less value theses voters have
-Voters who don't spend monthly on the game, have no downvote value (they can downvote but without stats recorded)
-Voters who spend less than 10 dollars per month have normal rating value
-Voters who spend more than 10 dollars per month have higher rating value
The rating value will be scaled to be impossible to cover it with the income of the selected item, ex. 1000 upvotes means 10000 dollars to spend for the votes which is beyond the
profit from a selected item/set.
reading this, i imagine valve is looking close when it comes to workshop vote manipulation.
:thumbup: yeah they learned a lot with the joke that is the current Greenlight set up, and it is amazing that they realize and acknowledge this and are looking to a better future
I agree about the randomized voting que system. I think that was probably one of the best things about the greenlight process. I've heard as well that Valve is not happy with Greenlight and may be drastically changing/getting rid of it. But yeah the randomized que system seems like a strong idea. I mean, you can still use social media/ communities to search specific items or share links to vote on specifics, but whatever.
Also bringing up again what people said before about sets taking up more space than they probably need. Or like Helenek said, one of the Que creating methods could be just sets.
I believe votes are redundant (aside front page exposure I guess..?), because there may be technical issues wrong with said items. (inefficient UV's or poor masks for example) This doesn't mean that the items & promo can't look cool & encourage mass votes.
Perhaps the artist has marketed their submission with only close ups, meanwhile the in game player perspective view of their items are quite poor due to bad silhouette. This is a scenario I can see popping up where an item of poor quality makes it in due to mass up votes. I don't see Valve allowing such content to make it in game, which is why the voting system should be made redundant, if it isn't already.
I don't really have any input aside from that as I'm fairly new in dealing with the workshop.
I believe votes are redundant (aside front page exposure I guess..?), because there may be technical issues wrong with said items. (inefficient UV's or poor masks for example) This doesn't mean that the items & promo can't look cool & encourage mass votes.
Perhaps the artist has marketed their submission with only close ups, meanwhile the in game player perspective view of their items are quite poor due to bad silhouette. This is a scenario I can see popping up where an item of poor quality makes it in due to mass up votes. I don't see Valve allowing such content to make it in game, which is why the voting system should be made redundant, if it isn't already.
I don't really have any input aside from that as I'm fairly new in dealing with the workshop.
Valve does not add items based solely on votes. Granted Valve has added some questionable items in the past, but they have acknowledged this. If an item is poor quality and has massive votes it will most likely not be added.
Yet you would be surprised at how many companies DON'T follow what they're talking about. I agree its nothing new, its more like common sense. But a lot of companies do the complete opposite and don't care about user experience at all. They're more about the money and that greed leads them astray from making fun games, especially in the mobile arena. It happens all the time
Sure is relevant tho ain't it. In case humans a long time from now stumble upon this thread.
Well the topic says the future of the D2 workshop and in that video its more about the past of the TF2 workshop. I just wouldn't recommend anybody who's familiar with the workshop to spend time on this video because there's nothing new for them and it's fairly long.
Yet you would be surprised at how many companies DON'T follow what they're talking about. I agree its nothing new, its more like common sense. But a lot of companies do the complete opposite and don't care about user experience at all. They're more about the money and that greed leads them astray from making fun games, especially in the mobile arena. It happens all the time
Big companies tend to be as conservative as possible and the small companies often don't have resources/guts to go into such specific territories. That's weird, yeah. I mean look at Gmod, a game that's made entirely around the concept of players creating whatever they find interesting way before valve made any hats and it proved to be successful even back then. And now minecraft dominates the sandbox market with the similar idea.
In the first 10 minutes of that video alone (hell, the first 5) they spout more wisdom than I've seen any other game company take to heart. Plenty for others to learn, despite how obvious and common knowledge it may be to some, I took away a good amount of stuff from it! hehe
Big companies tend to be as conservative as possible and the small companies often don't have resources/guts to go into such specific territories. That's weird, yeah. I mean look at Gmod, a game that's made entirely around the concept of players creating whatever they find interesting way before valve made any hats and it proved to be successful even back then. And now minecraft dominates the sandbox market with the similar idea.
I was talking more about the psychology behind their decision process. I didn't mean to talk about the UGC and all the Steam stuff. I meant that they mean to make a fun, good game first and then the monetization stuff comes next. They don't want to nickle and dime players because then they won't come back and spend more money. The market is such a genius idea as well, letting the player determine the value of something lets them feel in control.
I was talking more about the psychology behind their decision process. I didn't mean to talk about the UGC and all the Steam stuff. I meant that they mean to make a fun, good game first and then the monetization stuff comes next. They don't want to nickle and dime players because then they won't come back and spend more money. The market is such a genius idea as well, letting the player determine the value of something lets them feel in control.
What can be said, that's a mad world we live in where such fairly straightforward thinking can't pass through business and management practices
I've been listening through most of the talk from the dev days, if you guys want answers to Valves communication policies and some reasons as to why/how/when they communicate with their communities this video is probably the most relevant. Excellent point around 35:00 minutes which i already mostly knew is basically the idea that the most honest feedback they can get from their communities is when the community doesn't know for SURE if Valve is listening, and if Valve came in here on this thread and said blah blah we agree with this, were going to fix this as soon as we can, they could really stick their foot in their mouth easily.
I think this thread is excellent but for the people saying that Valve needs to talk to us weekly or whatever i just don't think that's reasonable. Definitely keep the discussions going though, they are listening, it just takes time to mull over all this info and act on it accordingly.
I dont know if it is a common thing but I have seen at least 3 idiots who I share my country with, They just downvote everything in workshop. They just open the most recent part and they just downvote everything when they have time. I hope this is not a common issue. They probably have downvoted like 100-150 items for now with periods.
Does it work? No. The Workshop works for those who have a name. however, there are so many problems getting in for those who are new.
One problem is the 'snowball issue' Valve seem quite fond of, which also is present in Dota itself, and to me isn't good design - meaning, the three top items gets featured, and thus receive even more votes (which they didn't need), and really, for what reason? It should be the entire first page - at least. Don't get me wrong. I am a huge fan of Valve's work, but they are not perfect.
Another matter - as said in a previous post: it is a killer receiving down votes from people who get kicks out of doing such things. The reality is that there are many people like that, so with the way they current system works, then they do more harm than they deserve to do. That needs re-thought.
For people who do not garner high view counts based simply on the fact they haven't a name, or aren't as marketing-minded, it is absolutely game over. Artists often aren't marketing minded, but are more into the art of their work - I know I am.
Looking back at the Workshop's early items - the way they look and the way they were presented, then there's a huge difference between then and now. Those items would never in a million years make it in today's Workshop. Now, it is all about looking cool - the presentation and friends circle, and it has become rather a club - not always based on quality when compared to those that does not receive similar treatment. I am not saying that the highly-viewed items aren't good, but more that the others are too.
As of now, there are so many items never being seen that deserve to be seen, and it is discouraging to the extreme.
First of all, it is a big deal making any quality items and getting them on there (for a lot of people), and good job for doing that, and to then see those sink like rocks within hours, with little to no views - well, I hardly have words for it.
Anyway, I think what has been meant as a fair shot for all, have become a stage for a few people, where the rest can sit and look on from the stands. Really a pity.
So, to say it is fine, then it absolutely depends on who you are.
Does it work? No. The Workshop works for those who have a name. however, there are so many problems getting in for those who are new.
One problem is the 'snowball issue' Valve seem quite fond of, which also is present in Dota itself, and to me isn't good design - meaning, the three top items gets featured, and thus receive even more votes (which they didn't need), and really, for what reason? It should be the entire first page - at least. Don't get me wrong. I am a huge fan of Valve's work, but they are not perfect.
Another matter - as said in a previous post: it is a killer receiving down votes from people who get kicks out of doing such things. The reality is that there are many people like that, so with the way they current system works, then they do more harm than they deserve to do. That needs re-thought.
For people who do not garner high view counts based simply on the fact they haven't a name, or aren't as marketing-minded, it is absolutely game over. Artists often aren't marketing minded, but are more into the art of their work - I know I am.
Looking back at the Workshop's early items - the way they look and the way they were presented, then there's a huge difference between then and now. Those items would never in a million years make it in today's Workshop. Now, it is all about looking cool - the presentation and friends circle, and it has become rather a club - not always based on quality when compared to those that does not receive similar treatment. I am not saying that the highly-viewed items aren't good, but more that the others are too.
As of now, there are so many items never being seen that deserve to be seen, and it is discouraging to the extreme.
First of all, it is a big deal making any quality items and getting them on there (for a lot of people), and good job for doing that, and to then see those sink like rocks within hours, with little to no views - well, I hardly have words for it.
Anyway, I think what has been meant as a fair shot for all, have become a stage for a few people, where the rest can sit and look on from the stands. Really a pity.
So, to say it is fine, then it absolutely depends on who you are.
H
I have to agree with every point here. I am not producing the kind of work that I expect to see in the game yet but I have felt that these issues are influencing my submissions (and submissions by some artists that are way better than me).
I think that the best thing is to keep talking about ways to improve the current system.
As people have said, the 'top 3' systems showcases some of the great work that has been done, but it also means that if you submit your art while an item is snowballing, you will not be seen by anyone but the few diligent workshop users who look at most submissions.
Other contributor have already suggested some great ideas, but I think it is important that users who do produce a lot of high quality content are not punished by a change in the system. Changes should be beneficial for every workshop contributor. Some of the systems that I can really agree with are:
-Make sets into a single workshop submission somehow. This clears up slots in the front page, making it so that more is visible to the casual workshop user. It also means that a really good single item gets the same potential exposure as a really good set. This system will also benefit the creators of any set because a single vote will be rating the entire set, this way users don't get 'voting fatigue' on a set they really like.
-Implement a workshop voting panel in the game search screen that shows 3 different slots. these could be a
Random top rated submission
Random new submission
Random submission for your top played heroes
-I get the same paranoid feelings that i suspect as a lot of other creators do (all positive feedback for half a day and then a flurry of negative votes in a very short time). The reality is down votes are going to happen, they could be legitimate feedback, or people just getting a kick out of it. As far as I'm concerned there is no distinguishing between the two and no way of removing this problem. Instead of nursing hurt feelings we should probably focus on improving other elements of the workshop system.
-I understand the struggle to get views, they are probably my biggest disappointment in my submissions. I am happy to get negative votes but I often feel a little underwhelmed by the view counts I get on the DOTA 2 workshop. Unfortunately this is another issue that cannot be directly resolved and effort should be focused on things that can be changed.
Overall I think it is mainly organisational issues that need to be resolved. No one should be punished for having better marketing, more submissions or being a veteran of the workshop.
TL;DR
Some good suggestions in this thread, lets hope some of them are implemented without punishing successful workshop users.
My main problem with the way the workshop works is the "empty" submissions.
I've posted countless messages on peoples items that are literally, a stolen image from a hero, claiming it as original work, and as a "new" loading screen.
I've also had the missfortune of uploading an item, just to realize that 5 minutes after i did, someone uploaded scanned images of a drawing, claiming its a concept and they need ppl to do it for them... pushing my submission further down, and away from people with actual good comments or votes.
Aside from that, Marketing your items is a great way to get exposure, but sometimes the items dont really portray the way the item looks in the game, an excess of layers, effects and blurs cause some items to look quite different from what they actually do in the engine (i myself am guilty of doing this in a couple of submissions) Maybe a regulated system of marketing would be a way to combat this. What i mean is, a script in game that will screenshot the item from different poses, as well as in the binding stage, so that those images are uploaded automatically when submitting an item. Of course adding the extra marketing and beauty shots would be avaialble, but at least there would be a visual norm, giving the people without strong marketing or 2d skills a fighting chance to get some votes.
Anyway, I think what has been meant as a fair shot for all, have become a stage for a few people, where the rest can sit and look on from the stands. Really a pity.
You should have been to TI3, you could have actually experienced the literal interpretation of what you just said! :thumbup:
There are new artists popping up every week and getting attention and thousands of votes and positive responses to their items. It's not a perfect system but if you make a good item it will be noticed.
It's so easy to blame people or the system when an item you post doesn't get the reception you think it deserves.
"It's so easy to blame people or the system when an item you post doesn't get the reception you think it deserves."
^ I agree. The first item I made made it up to first page for a few days, and that got me super excited. It helps being popular but you can still make it to the front without any followers!
There are new artists popping up every week and getting attention and thousands of votes and positive responses to their items. It's not a perfect system but if you make a good item it will be noticed.
It's so easy to blame people or the system when an item you post doesn't get the reception you think it deserves.
This!
Also, those who have followers, attention..etc. They put a lot of effort into it and came with time. I say, learn from them, and do what you can to improve visibility.
A good example is Prostomogy. The guy never gave up and is just hitting the stars right now.
Totally second Brontos point. You have to realize you are competing globally with incredibly talented artists. Some of which are or were at some point actual professional character artists at well known studios. If you can't match that quality there's not much to say, other than keep trying, keep improving. I know for my latest Pugna set, i worked hard on it. and was super disappointed when it didn't get the votes i hoped it would. But after taking some time away from it and looking at it again, there are obvious visual problems with that set. The worlds not always fair, and im sure Valve will do the best they can to even the playing field, but it's still going to be hard. If it was easy and someone with no experience modeling/texturing could jump in and create an item first time and get it in the store, everybody would be doing it.
Also larson where's your workshop? where's your thread? put that stuff in your signature, the internet is about linking things. I can't even find your items, i searched larson in the workshop and got nothing.
Just want to clarify before it runs off the track. I am not bu-huing about not having items accepted. People like what people like. What I was (am) frustrated about are views in general - how to get them. The problem I have had was a high approval rate, but a few negatives being enough to sink them, and that comes around to the view count - where that is so important.
If an item does not hit it running, it falls down the newly posted items like a rock, and does not end up anywhere near where people can and will see it. That said, I know that is how it works and I will have to fit within that, and I will. Anyway, I think I can do the work, but the Workshop itself is frustrating - at least to me. But, people are different. You are right about me not being the most marketing-minded person, not even having links to my stuff. I will put it in my signature, however I just never looked into that.
Now, as for the Workshop, I have been on the 1st page for quite a while with a couple of items, and that was fun, but at that point, I was more about getting an item accepted in general, and that is still my goal - first and foremost. So, I had, since starting making items for the Workshop, had to come up with a more cartoony style, and simpler and less busy designs, and hopefully it is slowly getting there with the new ones that aren't published as of yet. I have about five or six waiting in the wings, but I tend to stare myself blind working on them, and rotate around, so as not to have it turn stale.
The problem I have had was a high approval rate, but a few negatives being enough to sink them, and that comes around to the view count - where that is so important.
one of the core reasons I started this thread actually. I know how frustrating it is to be super proud of your item, believe in it, only to see after a week it has 200 views. It will get a huge amount of favorites and upvotes, but if it never gets votes fast enough it will stay down, so then you get situations where you have 200 views and 80 favorites, 98% likes, etc. but others will get insane exposure up to 80k views+.
Exposure is definitely an issue held hostage, if you get enough of an influx at the start to push it towards the front page, the horrible part is that a couple downvotes is all it takes to prevent that. I still believe it's nothing to stay too concerned about as Valve looks through all the submissions, and I have had things go in with ~130 votes, but things with a lot of attention are absolutely prioritized... to the point where it feels like the standards are lowered sometimes.
edit: But at the same time, it's their obligation to provide the community with content they show interest in, so it makes sense. To be clear, I think the problem most of us have is when we see blatantly sub-par items being pushed by third party organizations taking a cut for additional exposure they provide that's not available to the rest of us.
edit 2: that's not to say I want to see the workshop becoming this elite paradise, quite the opposite. I love seeing new faces and do my best to collab with lots of people, new and established, and I think you shouldn't NEED to be Super Pro XXX Baller, but we should at least avoid compromising the look and current aesthetic/art style of the game.
I think we're talking about the same thing - views are paramount. So, as said further up, which was a good point - sets should occupy one slot, and be judged as a set, and not individual items. I know Valve likes to approve parts of a set, but it clutters the field needlessly. I realize they get their items regardless of what people think, and that it is their call, but I for one think it could stand to be overhauled. Another point is the growth of the Workshop. It seems this system is made for a past Workshop and not with any mind on present day's situation. It isn't anything that has been made to sour the Workshop - of course, but it has become a different beast entirely from where it came, and thinking ahead a bit, it will only get worse.
I just posted three items at the same time and each has had varying levels of success, the most being 500+ views and a 93% positive rating and it has barely touched the front page (it hit 5 stars before scraping at the bottom of the front page). The second highest hasn't been on the front page has 450ish views and an 89& positive rating and is also at 5 stars. The third is doing okay but nothing noteworthy.
It is possible to have success without snowballing or getting thousands of views from posting your items everywhere.
This might stir some pots or be taken the wrong way, or just be redundant, haha, maybe... But Im going to say it because I think it sort of needs to be said.
I think having any entitlement or holding valve to any type of standard while submitting items/expectations about what will be accepted will automatically lead to disappointment. (99.999% of the time.)
The workshop is too volatile to try to have a science or reason behind things that happen/items that get accepted, sure there are trends, but its too random to be able to say anythong for certain. I think grade A artists who constantly (key word, constantly) make submissions, "'make it work" persay because valve feels like they understand the art direction, and they are known well enough that its a safe bet, but not certain at all., and there are enougj pieces at this rate of production that if something doesnt get in, its not a heart break.
I like the idea of brainstorming ways to potentially improve the experience in the submitting stage, as well as sharing experices and knowledge, but its never been valves duty to make a fair experience for accepting/submitting items. (This is said with the idea of "fair experience" being reasonable. IE, not buying votes ect. (But then even votes dont matter, right?))
Bottom line, the only sure fire way to increase your odds of acceptance is to increase your workflow/production hours/items submitted. (This is that .001% that might not lead to frustration. MAYBE)
This is definately risky buisness, and a good way to get frustrated about it is to pick up expectations and lose focus on the goal, "make killer art."
Replies
I since then deleted him
Its case similar cs:go weapon skins workshop. On CS:GO weapon skins workshop I always get spammed by any creators to vote their creation weapon skin on my page. Its too unfair for this.
The reason is because their using their influence to get blind votes. It's like having a celebrity getting paid to say that they like McDonalds regardless of the celebrity's opinion. Its also like paying off critics to say it is good, then everyone else would think its good just because they trust the critic in saying that it is good instead of having their own opinion.
I think that the dota 2 submissions are being voted based on the votes of influential by people in the community. It boils down to is, "I like this guy, he likes this, it must be good" - Upvote.
I completely agree, and i think you used the right comparison here. Upvoting something blindly creates the illusion that people like it. I think everyone here would like more of their items in the workshop, but I wouldn't like it if "paying" for advertisement became a necessity
Hopefully high quality art work and dedication still wins through at the end of the day though!
Not sure if it's a good sign or a bad sign, but I have not been approached by the vote trolls
Why not simply add a pre-order/pre-buy option for sets to see the ACTUAL monetary guage in interest?
On the other news, I have checked latest item from our dear scammer, not even 300 votes
:thumbup: this in general would not work with the structure of a f2p store like the dota store. Also most users dont even pay for items and just rely on drops for their items.
What this does, is simply weigh the voting system down to items that people actually want to purchase.
It would completely eliminate vote-scamming, and show what would actually make money for Valve.
Also ... wouldn't it create even *more* possibilities for scams ?
(btw I am not saying that it wont work for sure or that it would hurt the system - I just find the idea of set pre-orders a little bit ... unnecessary somehow ?)
Especially considering that the max votes an item can get is around 10,000 to 15,000 on the workshop when the daily amount of players is at around 700,000.
As the workshop stands, votes are merely a way for Valve to judge how popular an item might be - there is no commitment required from either voter or Valve to decide what items to include. Which means that they can include whatever items they wish to prioritise, whether they be tournament items, or items that really fit well into the game etc regardless of how popular they are.
If you let people pre-order though, then that is the users putting down cold hard cash and is a very heavy commitment. This is especially so considering that money which goes into the Steam wallet does not come out, which in turn is additional pressure for Valve to add items that are very popular. Over the last few months we've also seen that popularity does not necessarily equate to quality, and there are many sets and items that have been immensely popular that haven't been added to the game for one reason or another. Potential money made becomes an even more obvious factor in determining whether sets get into the game (potentially over other factors), as if it isn't big enough already.
All told I'd rather keep the workshop money and commitment free.
First, rather then a top rated, you get a queue. This way there can never be a way to shine above others. You're provided a pre-exisiting list randomized based off variables you set. By elimating that "top rated" factor, you immediately elminate any chance scammers selling votes will get involved since the whole thing is randomized.
For the workshop, I'd suggest limiting it to a few varibles;
The Greenlit section could be used to quell that worry of wondering when an item will get implemented. I'd hope that each new patch where they release items, they'll also greenlight items for future patches.
And this.
This alone would be a massive improvement to the workshop. It's more or less a "lets pretend you want to buy this" button. The pre-order idea suggested earlier, is the same idea.
but still, not a bad idea. i like the queue voting for items.
Its a shame if that happens.
But, regardless of that, I still think the ideas of greenlight could easily transition into the workshop and improve what we already have.
reading this, i imagine valve is looking close when it comes to workshop vote manipulation.
The only time i encountered one on my alt account,
he mass downvoted my items when i told him to get out,
probably not a bot voting merc, but manually, it's enough to cheese an item.
I think downvote mercs are more problematics than upvote mercs. It takes only one downvote
to send you under several pages, and i highly suspect them to be
active on dota 2 WS right now.
What i suggest for the voting system:
-Items related to the 3 most played hero of a player appears in priority in the workshop gallery
-Items that suffer low views get displayed for review in the searching queue of the game (where you can see the set pictures and the crafting minigame)
-Diminishing returns, the more same voters on the same artists, the less value theses voters have
-Voters who don't spend monthly on the game, have no downvote value (they can downvote but without stats recorded)
-Voters who spend less than 10 dollars per month have normal rating value
-Voters who spend more than 10 dollars per month have higher rating value
The rating value will be scaled to be impossible to cover it with the income of the selected item, ex. 1000 upvotes means 10000 dollars to spend for the votes which is beyond the
profit from a selected item/set.
The workshop will be way harder to rig then
:thumbup: yeah they learned a lot with the joke that is the current Greenlight set up, and it is amazing that they realize and acknowledge this and are looking to a better future
Also bringing up again what people said before about sets taking up more space than they probably need. Or like Helenek said, one of the Que creating methods could be just sets.
Perhaps the artist has marketed their submission with only close ups, meanwhile the in game player perspective view of their items are quite poor due to bad silhouette. This is a scenario I can see popping up where an item of poor quality makes it in due to mass up votes. I don't see Valve allowing such content to make it in game, which is why the voting system should be made redundant, if it isn't already.
I don't really have any input aside from that as I'm fairly new in dealing with the workshop.
Valve does not add items based solely on votes. Granted Valve has added some questionable items in the past, but they have acknowledged this. If an item is poor quality and has massive votes it will most likely not be added.
Hayes posted this in the WayWo, so I figured I'd Xpost here.
Well the topic says the future of the D2 workshop and in that video its more about the past of the TF2 workshop. I just wouldn't recommend anybody who's familiar with the workshop to spend time on this video because there's nothing new for them and it's fairly long.
Big companies tend to be as conservative as possible and the small companies often don't have resources/guts to go into such specific territories. That's weird, yeah. I mean look at Gmod, a game that's made entirely around the concept of players creating whatever they find interesting way before valve made any hats and it proved to be successful even back then. And now minecraft dominates the sandbox market with the similar idea.
I was talking more about the psychology behind their decision process. I didn't mean to talk about the UGC and all the Steam stuff. I meant that they mean to make a fun, good game first and then the monetization stuff comes next. They don't want to nickle and dime players because then they won't come back and spend more money. The market is such a genius idea as well, letting the player determine the value of something lets them feel in control.
What can be said, that's a mad world we live in where such fairly straightforward thinking can't pass through business and management practices
I think this thread is excellent but for the people saying that Valve needs to talk to us weekly or whatever i just don't think that's reasonable. Definitely keep the discussions going though, they are listening, it just takes time to mull over all this info and act on it accordingly.
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One problem is the 'snowball issue' Valve seem quite fond of, which also is present in Dota itself, and to me isn't good design - meaning, the three top items gets featured, and thus receive even more votes (which they didn't need), and really, for what reason? It should be the entire first page - at least. Don't get me wrong. I am a huge fan of Valve's work, but they are not perfect.
Another matter - as said in a previous post: it is a killer receiving down votes from people who get kicks out of doing such things. The reality is that there are many people like that, so with the way they current system works, then they do more harm than they deserve to do. That needs re-thought.
For people who do not garner high view counts based simply on the fact they haven't a name, or aren't as marketing-minded, it is absolutely game over. Artists often aren't marketing minded, but are more into the art of their work - I know I am.
Looking back at the Workshop's early items - the way they look and the way they were presented, then there's a huge difference between then and now. Those items would never in a million years make it in today's Workshop. Now, it is all about looking cool - the presentation and friends circle, and it has become rather a club - not always based on quality when compared to those that does not receive similar treatment. I am not saying that the highly-viewed items aren't good, but more that the others are too.
As of now, there are so many items never being seen that deserve to be seen, and it is discouraging to the extreme.
First of all, it is a big deal making any quality items and getting them on there (for a lot of people), and good job for doing that, and to then see those sink like rocks within hours, with little to no views - well, I hardly have words for it.
Anyway, I think what has been meant as a fair shot for all, have become a stage for a few people, where the rest can sit and look on from the stands. Really a pity.
So, to say it is fine, then it absolutely depends on who you are.
H
I have to agree with every point here. I am not producing the kind of work that I expect to see in the game yet but I have felt that these issues are influencing my submissions (and submissions by some artists that are way better than me).
I think that the best thing is to keep talking about ways to improve the current system.
As people have said, the 'top 3' systems showcases some of the great work that has been done, but it also means that if you submit your art while an item is snowballing, you will not be seen by anyone but the few diligent workshop users who look at most submissions.
Other contributor have already suggested some great ideas, but I think it is important that users who do produce a lot of high quality content are not punished by a change in the system. Changes should be beneficial for every workshop contributor. Some of the systems that I can really agree with are:
-Make sets into a single workshop submission somehow. This clears up slots in the front page, making it so that more is visible to the casual workshop user. It also means that a really good single item gets the same potential exposure as a really good set. This system will also benefit the creators of any set because a single vote will be rating the entire set, this way users don't get 'voting fatigue' on a set they really like.
-Implement a workshop voting panel in the game search screen that shows 3 different slots. these could be a
Random top rated submission
Random new submission
Random submission for your top played heroes
-I get the same paranoid feelings that i suspect as a lot of other creators do (all positive feedback for half a day and then a flurry of negative votes in a very short time). The reality is down votes are going to happen, they could be legitimate feedback, or people just getting a kick out of it. As far as I'm concerned there is no distinguishing between the two and no way of removing this problem. Instead of nursing hurt feelings we should probably focus on improving other elements of the workshop system.
-I understand the struggle to get views, they are probably my biggest disappointment in my submissions. I am happy to get negative votes but I often feel a little underwhelmed by the view counts I get on the DOTA 2 workshop. Unfortunately this is another issue that cannot be directly resolved and effort should be focused on things that can be changed.
Overall I think it is mainly organisational issues that need to be resolved. No one should be punished for having better marketing, more submissions or being a veteran of the workshop.
TL;DR
Some good suggestions in this thread, lets hope some of them are implemented without punishing successful workshop users.
I've posted countless messages on peoples items that are literally, a stolen image from a hero, claiming it as original work, and as a "new" loading screen.
I've also had the missfortune of uploading an item, just to realize that 5 minutes after i did, someone uploaded scanned images of a drawing, claiming its a concept and they need ppl to do it for them... pushing my submission further down, and away from people with actual good comments or votes.
Aside from that, Marketing your items is a great way to get exposure, but sometimes the items dont really portray the way the item looks in the game, an excess of layers, effects and blurs cause some items to look quite different from what they actually do in the engine (i myself am guilty of doing this in a couple of submissions) Maybe a regulated system of marketing would be a way to combat this. What i mean is, a script in game that will screenshot the item from different poses, as well as in the binding stage, so that those images are uploaded automatically when submitting an item. Of course adding the extra marketing and beauty shots would be avaialble, but at least there would be a visual norm, giving the people without strong marketing or 2d skills a fighting chance to get some votes.
You should have been to TI3, you could have actually experienced the literal interpretation of what you just said! :thumbup:
It's so easy to blame people or the system when an item you post doesn't get the reception you think it deserves.
^ I agree. The first item I made made it up to first page for a few days, and that got me super excited. It helps being popular but you can still make it to the front without any followers!
This!
Also, those who have followers, attention..etc. They put a lot of effort into it and came with time. I say, learn from them, and do what you can to improve visibility.
A good example is Prostomogy. The guy never gave up and is just hitting the stars right now.
Also larson where's your workshop? where's your thread? put that stuff in your signature, the internet is about linking things. I can't even find your items, i searched larson in the workshop and got nothing.
If an item does not hit it running, it falls down the newly posted items like a rock, and does not end up anywhere near where people can and will see it. That said, I know that is how it works and I will have to fit within that, and I will. Anyway, I think I can do the work, but the Workshop itself is frustrating - at least to me. But, people are different. You are right about me not being the most marketing-minded person, not even having links to my stuff. I will put it in my signature, however I just never looked into that.
Portfolio: http://www.henriks3dworld.com/
Workshop: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198065679225/myworkshopfiles/?appid=570
Now, as for the Workshop, I have been on the 1st page for quite a while with a couple of items, and that was fun, but at that point, I was more about getting an item accepted in general, and that is still my goal - first and foremost. So, I had, since starting making items for the Workshop, had to come up with a more cartoony style, and simpler and less busy designs, and hopefully it is slowly getting there with the new ones that aren't published as of yet. I have about five or six waiting in the wings, but I tend to stare myself blind working on them, and rotate around, so as not to have it turn stale.
one of the core reasons I started this thread actually. I know how frustrating it is to be super proud of your item, believe in it, only to see after a week it has 200 views. It will get a huge amount of favorites and upvotes, but if it never gets votes fast enough it will stay down, so then you get situations where you have 200 views and 80 favorites, 98% likes, etc. but others will get insane exposure up to 80k views+.
Exposure is definitely an issue held hostage, if you get enough of an influx at the start to push it towards the front page, the horrible part is that a couple downvotes is all it takes to prevent that. I still believe it's nothing to stay too concerned about as Valve looks through all the submissions, and I have had things go in with ~130 votes, but things with a lot of attention are absolutely prioritized... to the point where it feels like the standards are lowered sometimes.
edit: But at the same time, it's their obligation to provide the community with content they show interest in, so it makes sense. To be clear, I think the problem most of us have is when we see blatantly sub-par items being pushed by third party organizations taking a cut for additional exposure they provide that's not available to the rest of us.
edit 2: that's not to say I want to see the workshop becoming this elite paradise, quite the opposite. I love seeing new faces and do my best to collab with lots of people, new and established, and I think you shouldn't NEED to be Super Pro XXX Baller, but we should at least avoid compromising the look and current aesthetic/art style of the game.
It is possible to have success without snowballing or getting thousands of views from posting your items everywhere.
I think having any entitlement or holding valve to any type of standard while submitting items/expectations about what will be accepted will automatically lead to disappointment. (99.999% of the time.)
The workshop is too volatile to try to have a science or reason behind things that happen/items that get accepted, sure there are trends, but its too random to be able to say anythong for certain. I think grade A artists who constantly (key word, constantly) make submissions, "'make it work" persay because valve feels like they understand the art direction, and they are known well enough that its a safe bet, but not certain at all., and there are enougj pieces at this rate of production that if something doesnt get in, its not a heart break.
I like the idea of brainstorming ways to potentially improve the experience in the submitting stage, as well as sharing experices and knowledge, but its never been valves duty to make a fair experience for accepting/submitting items. (This is said with the idea of "fair experience" being reasonable. IE, not buying votes ect. (But then even votes dont matter, right?))
Bottom line, the only sure fire way to increase your odds of acceptance is to increase your workflow/production hours/items submitted. (This is that .001% that might not lead to frustration. MAYBE)
This is definately risky buisness, and a good way to get frustrated about it is to pick up expectations and lose focus on the goal, "make killer art."