I thought the whole point of the workshop was that we'd be lightening the load for the Valve people by taking over repetitive, simpler art tasks (and getting the community involved in some way), leaving them time to focus on bigger things. For them to have to give feedback to tons of artists on tons of items seems a little counter-productive. I could see some small feedback here and there on stuff that they intend on adding, and a form with some basic feedback on why something doesn't get in being useful, but it's not their job to hold hands in this process.
I could see some small feedback here and there on stuff that they intend on adding, and a form with some basic feedback on why something doesn't get in being useful, but it's not their job to hold hands in this process.
I for one agree with this and Lennyagony nailed it on the head. If they just had some very simple feedback system where the artist looking at your item can pick from a drop down list, or check something off in a combo box would be more than enough, and that way too Valve could have a simple uniform way to interact with the workshop community better.
Like Lennyagony posted, this seems to be the ideal solution to me at least:
"Your item has been reviewed and will not be considered for addition.
Your item's have been reviewed and will not be considered for addition in the current round but have been flagged for re review at a later date
Your item has been reviewed and will be submitted to the test client for testing
This could potentially be expanded upon
will not be considered for addition due to - Overall quality
will not be considered for addition due to - Style
will not be considered for addition due to - Silhouette
Or any other regular issues, or combination of issues etc. "
I for one agree with this and Lennyagony nailed it on the head. If they just had some very simple feedback system where the artist looking at your item can pick from a drop down list, or check something off in a combo box would be more than enough, and that way too Valve could have a simple uniform way to interact with the workshop community better.
Like Lennyagony posted, this seems to be the ideal solution to me at least:
"Your item has been reviewed and will not be considered for addition.
Your item's have been reviewed and will not be considered for addition in the current round but have been flagged for re review at a later date
Your item has been reviewed and will be submitted to the test client for testing
This could potentially be expanded upon
will not be considered for addition due to - Overall quality
will not be considered for addition due to - Style
will not be considered for addition due to - Silhouette
Or any other regular issues, or combination of issues etc. "
Yeah, that would definitely be helpful to the artist. Though having been in the fantastical world of outsourcing feedback myself, I sure wouldn't wanna be the one who has to go through and do that for eight million rejected workshop submissions (which, to be fair, you'd have to do, along with actually opening and reviewing those models). That's not even getting into what it would mean for the other Valve games with workshopsv:
I thought the whole point of the workshop was that we'd be lightening the load for the Valve people by taking over repetitive, simpler art tasks (and getting the community involved in some way), leaving them time to focus on bigger things. For them to have to give feedback to tons of artists on tons of items seems a little counter-productive. I could see some small feedback here and there on stuff that they intend on adding, and a form with some basic feedback on why something doesn't get in being useful, but it's not their job to hold hands in this process.
unless I missed it I don't think anyone was asking for Valve to do hand holding nor specific feedback or critiques on everyone's items. That's what polycount and other game art communities are here for (and quite good at!). More communication/transparency to the community IN GENERAL (not just us) was one of the big points I took away from Diretide, and outside of that, stuff like Lenny mentioned seemed like a good proposal. We all would rather have them work on new heroes, breakdowns, game updates, etc. but I don't think it has to be 'one or the other' when it comes to them speaking out to the community vs getting work done.
I sure wouldn't wanna be the one who has to go through and do that for eight million rejected workshop submissions (which, to be fair, you'd have to do, along with actually opening and reviewing those models). That's not even getting into what it would mean for the other Valve games with
Yeah, I don't think it would be necessary to do it for every single one. That wouldn't make sense. personally I'm thinking with edge cases (like "this WOULD be great but 1 tiny thing...", which to be fair they seem to be doing!), and stuff flagged for approval/acceptance in the future, just to ease our anticipation. But who knows, maybe half the fun is not knowing until the day of for some people?
second edit:
Also great point about the other valve workshop games. It's definitely something to keep in mind, as Dota 2 isn't the only game with workshop support. I do think a lot of changes proposed in this thread however would benefit all the workshops, but when it comes down to the 'leaving notes' thing, I can absolutely see that getting overwhelming very quickly, unless they had one person dedicated to the job.
I sure wouldn't wanna be the one who has to go through and do that for eight million rejected workshop submissions
I should have added this in my original post. I would in no way expect Valve to go back and give feedback on any already submitted model. I feel if they implemented something like this it would be a from now on going forward thing, but this could also lead to the issue of people resubmitting old items to get the feedback. As awesome as this would be I can totally see the double edge sword, pandora's box situation this could lead to
1. The division between Pro Sets <-> Independent Stuff.
I think it's really cool the idea make stuff for pro teams, but it needs to be separated from the indepent stuff.
2. Workshop page needs to be more intuitive or make the visitors to check more stuff then look at the first page.
The suggestion is more related to the web design of the workshop page, which I feel like: "should I browse other pages to see and like more stuff or just check the weekly top?"
So this is my suggestion:
Ok I'm not good with web design, but I guess a more intuitive buttons could encourage people to browse more. Also added a "Random" Button, to help those items that are left in the dark.
1. The division between Pro Sets <-> Independent Stuff.
I think it's really cool the idea make stuff for pro teams, but it needs to be separated from the indepent stuff.
Absolutely, I meant to mention something like this earlier but it slipped my mind. I feel like Pro/Indie sets should be on separate pages in the workshop, and maybe in the store too, but I think the new found price disparity already kind of separates them.
The problem with separating them in the workshop then becomes, which has priority for those stopping in to browse? Is it a valid or even fair solution? Is the page then split in two, or is it two separate pages? Would it just create a further divide between those with pro set opportunities and those without? It's interesting, I don't have a solution but I think you are hitting on a topic worth discussing.
You got a point, maybe dividing will create a kind of elitism? I dunno.
I would be satisfied if at least sets have their own division, and taking just 1 slot at the workshop. It feels silly making a set and people voting each element separated, since if it's aproved all the items are going anyway.
Also I forgot to mention single items section, it needs more love.
Reading back on all the suggestions above, it really seems to me that the easiest thing Valve could do would be to add more filtering options to the Workshop pages. It doesn't even need much of a layout change - just some more filters and categories. That way there would be no fear of "breaking" the workshop by adding new rules - it would just bring more visibility to existing items.
The random button is an excellent idea, and also having it ingame at idle times or at the press of a button (if the player wants it, of course) could really work well.
I would personally love to have a solid search field in the Workshop page too - smart enough to search for heroes, set names, item names, and author(s) names. I was looking for a specific set made by a friend the other day and had a hard time finding it, even though I knew the hero it was for and the names of the artists.
At the end of the day it all really depends on how Valve reads their own metrics. Do they just browse items randomly and cherry pick what feels right ? Do they just look at the best rated from the previous weeks, and discuss that ? And so on.
Now I have no problem with their process being quite organic, and if one day they decide to go and have a look at "all" the thousands of already submitted items, they can do that too. But I am still really concerned with the fact that items sit idle for weeks or months, even after receiving good ratings and visibility. The Coco courier by JFletcher comes to mind again - I really don't understand why it is not available in the store yet, or at least flagged by Valve as "will be added to the game for sure". I would think that from the artist's perspective it's really a weird situation to be in.
Considering the time and effort involved in creating such a piece, I think it is Valve's responsibility to take the time and acknowledge it fully. It is free work (and eventually free money) gracefully given to them, after all !
Reading back on all the suggestions above, it really seems to me that the easiest thing Valve could do would be to add more filtering options to the Workshop pages. It doesn't even need much of a layout change - just some more filters and categories. That way there would be no fear of "breaking" the workshop by adding new rules - it would just bring more visibility to existing items.
The random button is an excellent idea, and also having it ingame at idle times or at the press of a button (if the player wants it, of course) could really work well.
I would personally love to have a solid search field in the Workshop page too - smart enough to search for heroes, set names, item names, and author(s) names. I was looking for a specific set made by a friend the other day and had a hard time finding it, even though I knew the hero it was for and the names of the artists.
At the end of the day it all really depends on how Valve reads their own metrics. Do they just browse items randomly and cherry pick what feels right ? Do they just look at the best rated from the previous weeks, and discuss that ? And so on.
Now I have no problem with their process being quite organic, and if one day they decide to go and have a look at "all" the thousands of already submitted items, they can do that too. But I am still really concerned with the fact that items sit idle for weeks or months, even after receiving good ratings and visibility. The Coco courier by JFletcher comes to mind again - I really don't understand why it is not available in the store yet, or at least flagged by Valve as "will be added to the game for sure". I would think that from the artist's perspective it's really a weird situation to be in.
Considering the time and effort involved in creating such a piece, I think it is Valve's responsibility to take the time and acknowledge it fully. It is free work (and eventually free money) gracefully given to them, after all !
Coco actually just went in this patch, so no worries in that regard. I think most people who have been doing this for a while have accepted they might need to wait weeks to months potentially for their items to get in. The key is to just keep submitting new stuff at this point.
Considering the time and effort involved in creating such a piece, I think it is Valve's responsibility to take the time and acknowledge it fully. It is free work (and eventually free money) gracefully given to them, after all !
Coco actually just went in this patch, so no worries in that regard. I think most people who have been doing this for a while have accepted they might need to wait weeks to months potentially for their items to get in. The key is to just keep submitting new stuff at this point.
Cool yeah, just saw it in the store, along with the BH set Great stuff ! Goes to show that even tho the system does need some polishing, some aspects of it really work well.
Also, Chemical : maybe I phrased it poorly ? I am just saying that from an artist's perspective (on both sides : the Valve art team, and the workshop contributors), this kind of work obviously represents a huge amount of time and energy. Concept, modelling, texturing, animations, promotion ... If after that, things stay idle for months without any feedback as to why (two months for Coco, and 10 months for the BroodMother set), I think that is a bit of a problem.
Now don't get me wrong, I think it is great how the Workshop lets artists submit freely whatever they want, especially since its self-regulating nature ensures that items remain very lore-friendly and the quality levels are very high. But if it comes at the price of being left in the dark for months after such a time investment, then I understand that, as mentioned earlier, some artists decided to leave the Workshop scene altogether. Personally I don't mind the current system too much, as I like the idea of just making art for the fun of it. But I can see how it can be very frustrating too !
Also, Chemical : maybe I phrased it poorly ? I am just saying that from an artist's perspective (on both sides : the Valve art team, and the workshop contributors), this kind of work obviously represents a huge amount of time and energy. Concept, modelling, texturing, animations, promotion ... If after that, things stay idle for months without any feedback as to why (two months for Coco, and 10 months for the BroodMother set), I think that is a bit of a problem.
Now don't get me wrong, I think it is great how the Workshop lets artists submit freely whatever they want, especially since its self-regulating nature ensures that items remain very lore-friendly and the quality levels are very high. But if it comes at the price of being left in the dark for months after such a time investment, then I understand that, as mentioned earlier, some artists decided to leave the Workshop scene altogether. Personally I don't mind the current system too much, as I like the idea of just making art for the fun of it. But I can see how it can be very frustrating too !
Oh, believe me, Iknow what thatfeels like. But like Oroboros said, in general you gotta just keep creating quality stuff and eventually something will pay off. As much as I think we'd all love more info about our submissions at times (and it's great when I receive some), I certainly don't expect or feel entitled to it. The workshop is a big place, and it's only getting bigger.
If people want to leave because they feel it's too frustrating, risky or it doesn't suit their working style, that totally makes sense. In my case, I recently quit my studio job (along with Dry) so I'd be able to dedicate a full-time schedule to making stuff and have greater success in the workshop.
I guess I just don't equate time or hard work spent to guaranteed acceptance or attention. There's a lot of people making stuff these days, and competition is growing. It can be fun and it can definitely be rewarding, but it's obviously just not for everyone.
Oh yeah totally! I didn't mean to suggest that a lot of time or effort should guarantee acceptance, at all - sorry if I badly expressed it. I just meant to say that after such a long time staying idle, it would have been nice of Valve to at least shoot a quick private message to the set authors earlier on - either positive or negative. It would help at bringing "closure" to an artist, so to speak.
We also have to realize that there's actually new people joining the workshop scene all the time, so these types of questions and thoughts are normal.
In regards to how Valve chooses items or when they choose to implement them? It's really not something you can predict, but you can definitely be reassured that doing quality work rarely goes unrecognized.
If it does, and that is how it feels some times, there might be factors like say, an armor set being created for a hero that's in the middle of being reworked by Valve, or too much saturation of items for a particular hero. For example: Omniknight hasn't had any cosmetics accepted for close to a year due to them experimenting with a red color scheme for him (Which just went live), that required them to retint all the existing cosmetics. The development process seems to be just as organic, as evidenced by the amount of hero reworks recently.
While i completely get why would anyone wants some clear indication that his hard work was reviewed, i don't think that's a good idea. Receiving dev comment now means a great lot for people, can you imagine what they'll get through after they get "it's okay" mark and will have to sit through 6 months of patches, without their items in sight?
There's a reason this exists:
Note: correspondence with the game's developers (e.g. Valve) does not guarantee that your submission will be chosen.
And a little bit about it was in the legal agreement, which they changed and combined with the steam legal agreement now, but nonetheless, you should read it too.
There are bunch of reasons why something gets in or doesn't, be it something technical, poor timing, stylistical inconsistencies, market oversaturation, the amount of work needed for it to be added and so on. But this doesn't mean that Valve should waste time by explaining everything they do, mostly since it takes out of their actual work time and because, clearly, almost every submission has their own reasons for (not) being added.
I do wish they'd spread more "This item is incompatible with D2", to kind of steer the submissions style, but as far as i can tell, they don't want to limit your creativity by highlighting something and openly declining something else.
Many of you wonder why some "quality" submissions don't get in, this happens mostly because good model does not mean that it's a good Dota 2 submission. And let's not get into the issue of mixing the items. So in the end it comes to the individual preference, and when you think about it, Valve did a great job in representing every facet of D2 workshop, taking mostly out of how they look ingame, not because of the hand-painted promo, team or organisation promoting the item, or sick 2048 textures that actually get downsized to 256 and loses every last detail.
As for the actual workshop layout and the representation of the submissions, there was a time when top 3 showed most recent/some random fresh submissions and i think that was one of the best ways to handle it. Top 3 gets the most views, and by exposing fresh stuff there you can bring the attention to the new stuff, instead of pouring another 1000 votes into already 10000 times upvoted submision.
Adding workshop to the match search sounds like a good idea, but in fact it'll just help flashy promos. The Greenlight way is the best, i think. You get a queue of items to vote for, easy to navigate, clear instructions, if sets are going to be grouped in the futre, i think it could work out nicely.
@Vlad, they don't really need to do much work, all they need is to copy and paste a comment to the set in general or single item saying, "its noisy" "breaks silhouette" "Oversaturated". Each dev of valve can do like 10 a day, in which all they have to do is copy paste comments.
I recently submitted an item (like a week ago) and it recieved many down votes. I forgot to put in-game pics but it seems people just vote just base on the thumbnail (all I had was the thumbnail). Nobody bothered to inform me that I was missing ingame pics or even asked!
So I propose a new system.
Voters can only vote if they provide constructive critisism. They can either write one themselves or choose from categories such as "Too much saturation" "Breaks silhoulette". Then these comments are made public for the community to decide if the comment was true or not. If it wasn't then the voter would be punished somehow. If it is true, then the author gets constructive critisim and improve his skills.
The dota 2 workshop isn't just filtering the good and bad items. Its also to improve the bad items so that it can work in dota 2. I'm not saying all bad Items can be improved (Like ones that break lore) but problems with color and scale could be fixed.
I'm just kind of tired of seeing negative votes without getting a reason why or any comments on how to improve with the item.
Of course this system cannot be applied for 3rd parties and team backed items because lets face it. The fans would just say "Hey its good" no matter how bad it is and would rate the bad comments(the ones saying "It breaks lore") down.
While i completely get why would anyone wants some clear indication that his hard work was reviewed, i don't think that's a good idea. Receiving dev comment now means a great lot for people, can you imagine what they'll get through after they get "it's okay" mark and will have to sit through 6 months of patches, without their items in sight?
There's a reason this exists:
Note: correspondence with the game's developers (e.g. Valve) does not guarantee that your submission will be chosen.
And a little bit about it was in the legal agreement, which they changed and combined with the steam legal agreement now, but nonetheless, you should read it too.
There are bunch of reasons why something gets in or doesn't, be it something technical, poor timing, stylistical inconsistencies, market oversaturation, the amount of work needed for it to be added and so on. But this doesn't mean that Valve should waste time by explaining everything they do, mostly since it takes out of their actual work time and because, clearly, almost every submission has their own reasons for (not) being added.
I do wish they'd spread more "This item is incompatible with D2", to kind of steer the submissions style, but as far as i can tell, they don't want to limit your creativity by highlighting something and openly declining something else.
Many of you wonder why some "quality" submissions don't get in, this happens mostly because good model does not mean that it's a good Dota 2 submission. And let's not get into the issue of mixing the items. So in the end it comes to the individual preference, and when you think about it, Valve did a great job in representing every facet of D2 workshop, taking mostly out of how they look ingame, not because of the hand-painted promo, team or organisation promoting the item, or sick 2048 textures that actually get downsized to 256 and loses every last detail.
As for the actual workshop layout and the representation of the submissions, there was a time when top 3 showed most recent/some random fresh submissions and i think that was one of the best ways to handle it. Top 3 gets the most views, and by exposing fresh stuff there you can bring the attention to the new stuff, instead of pouring another 1000 votes into already 10000 times upvoted submision.
Adding workshop to the match search sounds like a good idea, but in fact it'll just help flashy promos. The Greenlight way is the best, i think. You get a queue of items to vote for, easy to navigate, clear instructions, if sets are going to be grouped in the futre, i think it could work out nicely.
So I propose a new system.
Voters can only vote if they provide constructive critisism. They can either write one themselves or choose from categories such as "Too much saturation" "Breaks silhoulette". Then these comments are made public for the community to decide if the comment was true or not. If it wasn't then the voter would be punished somehow. If it is true, then the author gets constructive critisim and improve his skills.
that sounds about as effective as the ingame commend system
that sounds about as effective as the ingame commend system
i.e. not very
Improvement is always better.
Edit: Also about commenting on items while waiting for the game to load (like the minigame) would be a good idea. But instead of having pre-determined items, it'll be items less than X amount of votes. Of course there would have to be a better UI.
@Vlad, they don't really need to do much work, all they need is to copy and paste a comment to the set in general or single item saying, "its noisy" "breaks silhouette" "Oversaturated". Each dev of valve can do like 10 a day, in which all they have to do is copy paste comments.
If only crits could be melted down to ten responses.
I recently submitted an item (like a week ago) and it recieved many down votes. I forgot to put in-game pics but it seems people just vote just base on the thumbnail (all I had was the thumbnail). Nobody bothered to inform me that I was missing ingame pics or even asked!
People are to blame for your mistake! I've seen "Needs ingame pics" comments a bunch of times, getting downvoted one time doesn't mean that we should go all nazi on the comments.
Voters can only vote if they provide constructive critisism. They can either write one themselves or choose from categories such as "Too much saturation" "Breaks silhoulette". Then these comments are made public for the community to decide if the comment was true or not. If it wasn't then the voter would be punished somehow. If it is true, then the author gets constructive critisim and improve his skills.
That's laughable, opinions are not something you should be punished for, and very few of the workshop commenters have necessary skills/ability to provide proper critique.
The dota 2 workshop isn't just filtering the good and bad items. Its also to improve the bad items so that it can work in dota 2. I'm not saying all bad Items can be improved (Like ones that break lore) but problems with color and scale could be fixed.
I'm just kind of tired of seeing negative votes without getting a reason why or any comments on how to improve with the item.
Of course this system cannot be applied for 3rd parties and team backed items because lets face it. The fans would just say "Hey its good" no matter how bad it is and would rate the bad comments(the ones saying "It breaks lore") down.
And you're saying yourself that this wouldn't work.
@Vlad, they don't really need to do much work, all they need is to copy and paste a comment to the set in general or single item saying, "its noisy" "breaks silhouette" "Oversaturated". Each dev of valve can do like 10 a day, in which all they have to do is copy paste comments.
I recently submitted an item (like a week ago) and it recieved many down votes. I forgot to put in-game pics but it seems people just vote just base on the thumbnail (all I had was the thumbnail). Nobody bothered to inform me that I was missing ingame pics or even asked!
So I propose a new system.
Voters can only vote if they provide constructive critisism. They can either write one themselves or choose from categories such as "Too much saturation" "Breaks silhoulette". Then these comments are made public for the community to decide if the comment was true or not. If it wasn't then the voter would be punished somehow. If it is true, then the author gets constructive critisim and improve his skills.
The dota 2 workshop isn't just filtering the good and bad items. Its also to improve the bad items so that it can work in dota 2. I'm not saying all bad Items can be improved (Like ones that break lore) but problems with color and scale could be fixed.
I'm just kind of tired of seeing negative votes without getting a reason why or any comments on how to improve with the item.
Of course this system cannot be applied for 3rd parties and team backed items because lets face it. The fans would just say "Hey its good" no matter how bad it is and would rate the bad comments(the ones saying "It breaks lore") down.
Eh... I think limiting comments would actually hinder the workshop. Part of what makes the workshop fun is the mindless user comments . Honestly, if you're expecting any constructive feedback from the comments, then you should set your expectations very very low. Oh and punishing users for voicing their opinions is just not right.
Using it for a short time, I honestly don't see anything wrong with it at all. I'm sure all of you know about this page and its content http://www.dota2.com/workshop/requirements
If your models don't get accepted, you should know why. Then again, they can't accept every model that's submitted.
I've seen a bunch of awesome weapons and clothing that are lurking in the workshop.
In the end it's just a combination of how uprated the item is and weather or not the Dota2 admins will like it.
The only thing I would like added is if the public can test an item in-game before voting/purchase.
Using it for a short time, I honestly don't see anything wrong with it at all. I'm sure all of you know about this page and its content http://www.dota2.com/workshop/requirements
If your models don't get accepted, you should know why. Then again, they can't accept every model that's submitted.
I've seen a bunch of awesome weapons and clothing that are lurking in the workshop.
In the end it's just a combination of how uprated the item is and weather or not the Dota2 admins will like it.
The only thing I would like added is if the public can test an item in-game before voting/purchase.
If Valve can somehow implement an in-game model viewer in the browser, that would be so convenient for everyone.
Adding a so-called 'screening process' for comments is a bad idea. You can only vote or post something if its a constructive crit leaves out soooo many people. The majority of people who play Dota probably wouldn't even know how to give critique. Just because something gets downvoted a bit doesn't mean we need to get all control freak on posters. As much as we would like it to be, the Workshop is NOT a professional art forum.
Danpaz: Like you said, they can't accept everything that is submitted. The requirements page only scratches the surface of how to get an accepted item though. If Valve could expand a little more about acceptance procedure that would help a lot. Like HOW do they pick items? Does character popularity and market saturation effect it as much as WE think it does? There's a lot of amazing items and sets that are still sitting in the Workshop with high ratings.
Even knowing that Valve is a very relaxed company, for being run by such a big company the Workshop is still very unorganized and chaotic in regards to end-game for contributors.
I'm curious as to how Greenlight works as well since its a similar feature as the Workshop. If a game receives a set number of votes does it go up on Steam? Or is it more arbitrary community approval with no timeline for acceptance?
Eh... I think limiting comments would actually hinder the workshop. Part of what makes the workshop fun is the mindless user comments . Honestly, if you're expecting any constructive feedback from the comments, then you should set your expectations very very low. Oh and punishing users for voicing their opinions is just not right.
I'm not saying to punish the comments that are true, I'm saying to punish those that are not. Plus, the comments can always be on a from a set list of critiques, like plain or something. Its not like everyone would just say that a comment is bogus just because they don't like it.
If the dota2 worskhop isn't also to improve submissions, why is there a feature to edit submissions? Because changes could be made to improve an item. Be it scale, color, etc.
I said that this way wouldn't work with fans because they would just vote it up like the earlier asian anti mage set. That's why I said that teams and 3rd parties would have to be excluded.
Maybe the crits could be a poll, like from a set list therefore the author(s) can see whats the problem. It would have to be split into categories like, Animation, Texture, Lore, Rigg.
Not everybody can see whats wrong with their work. This is because when someone works on something, the person could be bias with his work or he has worked with the item long enough that he doesn't notice the mistakes anymore.
How about this? Disregard the idea of voting on other people's crits. This system would be completely anonymous and only the author(s) of the item can see the results.
A poll system:
It goes on how the rater likes or dislikes the item/set.
Likes:
Nothing really necesarry here but there can always be options on what they like.
It would be worded like " I like the ____ of the item"
-texture
-shape
-idea
-etc
Dislike:
This category would be in the opinion of the voter.
These would be separated in different categories which have sub categories
-Animation
-clipping occurs
-does not fit personality of the character
-Texture
-too noisy
-too plain
-Doesn't fit color scheme
-Lore
basically its whether it fits the lore or not. It doesn't really need a subcategory
-Shape
- It breaks silhouette
- Its something the hero cannot use (Like a hammer/sword for axe's primary weapon or a staff for pugna)
- Its silhouette isn't unique.
-Rigg
-off centered or something.
(maybe others if i'm missing some)
The system would be a dropdown menu after the vote and must be completed for the vote to count. It will be completely anonymous and people can choose multiple areas.
Atleast this way, the author(s) can see what people don't like about the item.
It could not work because %70 of the voters doesnt know anything about modelling stuff. They just up vote because of its look. And with this change maybe they wont even bother voting
Ghost, I think you're confusing the purpose of the workshop with the purpose of this forum. The edit item features don't indicate that supposedly the workshop was designed to let people improve their work. They are simply there so that people may make changes if anything goes wrong.
By all indications the workshop only exists to weed out the good items from the bad so that Valve does not need to sort through them themselves. Greenlight works this exact same way, so Valve has already set precedence for it.
Furthermore like cagdasx44 said, the people who vote for submissions on the workshop rarely give usable feedback which takes into account the processes we have to go through. In fact I believe a lot of voters don't even look for in-game images - a lot of them probably just look at the nice promo image, leave a vote and go on their way without a second thought to what the item actually looks like. All they're concerned with is whether the item looks good to them. That does not always mean they can help pinpoint what's wrong with it when it doesn't.
I think the voting system works well as it is now - it's simple and quick which makes it easy to get lots of votes for or against. Given it's purpose as a way of making good work visible to Valve, I believe it does its job well. I think the issue is more with how much visibility is available, and what ways there are to make more visibility available.
Ghost, I think you're confusing the purpose of the workshop with the purpose of this forum. The edit item features don't indicate that supposedly the workshop was designed to let people improve their work. They are simply there so that people may make changes if anything goes wrong.
By all indications the workshop only exists to weed out the good items from the bad so that Valve does not need to sort through them themselves. Greenlight works this exact same way, so Valve has already set precedence for it.
Furthermore like cagdasx44 said, the people who vote for submissions on the workshop rarely give usable feedback which takes into account the processes we have to go through. In fact I believe a lot of voters don't even look for in-game images - a lot of them probably just look at the nice promo image, leave a vote and go on their way without a second thought to what the item actually looks like. All they're concerned with is whether the item looks good to them. That does not always mean they can help pinpoint what's wrong with it when it doesn't.
I think the voting system works well as it is now - it's simple and quick which makes it easy to get lots of votes for or against. Given it's purpose as a way of making good work visible to Valve, I believe it does its job well. I think the issue is more with how much visibility is available, and what ways there are to make more visibility available.
I guess i misjudged the purpose of the workshop. I was hoping to know why some people don't like the item. Besides, voting based on presentation isn't really worth anything. You can have good looking food that tastes disgusting and bad looking food that tastes delicious.
Yeah I have to say that I don't mind the current Steam comments at all. Now of course they can sometimes feel a bit pointless when they are just reposts of the ASCI "thumbs up" graphic, but in a way, the comments evolved to be that way in an organic manner (probably related to the "like" system on FB), and it seems like it is striking a nice balance now. I am actually pleasantly surprised to see that gamers actually do take the time to post at all. That's cool !
Also, some Steam users *do* take the time to write down actual comments on there already, and some of these are very valuable because of how honest (and sometimes harsh) they can be. I think that between such raw gamer comments and the more carefully worded critiques here on Polycount, one has access to all the necessary metrics needed to know whether or not an item has a chance to make it to the store.
On the subject of promo images and sexy thumbnails : I have to say that I was a bit surprised by how important they are at first (especially after working at studios where the only thing that really matters is the quality of the asset itself, not how shiny and sexy its presentation is), but in the context of the workshop I think this is simply the nature of the beast. After all, we are making tiny RTS assets, occupying just a few pixels on a screen. Therefore, the promo image and thumbnails are just as important as the asset itself, in the sense that they sell the idea of the item, which helps suspension of disbelief and creates that special connection with the player. Just like the character selection screens in older fighting games, showing you a badass portrait of a character that is only a few dozen of pixels tall on screen.
Also I think that having to create nice thumbnails and attractive promotional images is an interesting exercise - a nice occasion to step outside one's comfort zone. It does take time and energy, but I think it is worth it. And after all, Valve evens the field once they put the items in store anyways, with their very neutral screenshots on grey background. I think that's a fair system in that regard.
I guess i misjudged the purpose of the workshop. I was hoping to know why some people don't like the item. Besides, voting based on presentation isn't really worth anything. You can have good looking food that tastes disgusting and bad looking food that tastes delicious.
It's okay I understand how you feel. It sucks not to have the feedback you'd like to hear. But believe me, people have difficulties in offering their comments. Thoughts aren't easy to translate into words most of the time, it takes effort to think carefully before they post. Some are afraid what they said might sound offensive, some are just terrible at explaining they think, some are too busy to share their opinion. Personally, I'm glad enough to receive comments from the Workshop, because if they leave a comment they gave a damn about my submissions! Just face it, ALL Steam users are gamers in general. They aren't professionally trained critics.
Why asking for critiques when you already have Polycount? Here we have amazing artists offering great and constructive advices for you to improve. I learned so much from the community here since the first day I joined (you guys rock). If you'd like to know why the votes aren't doing justice, I believe we can help you explain.
Also I think that having to create nice thumbnails and attractive promotional images is an interesting exercise - a nice occasion to step outside one's comfort zone. It does take time and energy, but I think it is worth it. And after all, Valve evens the field once they put the items in store anyways, with their very neutral screenshots on grey background. I think that's a fair system in that regard.
We ARE artists come on, if we're capable of creating kickass cosmetics, learning to create more appealing promo images wouldn't hurt! People still judge books by their covers, must well invest more time in marketing assets. Not to say we should let go of our technical skills, getting better at promo designs bring a lot of benefits! (It's for your own good, believe me) I attend artist alley in conventions now and then and I couldn't express how important appeal is to general audience! What attracts people sells, but doesn't mean you should let go of your technical skills. To put it simple, if you can do something good, make it better.
(Took me a while to translate my thoughts properly in this reply, it's really not easy for me to comment haha ;____; )
it'd be neat if there was an option to disable stuff like the tri budget and texture sizes / generate generic test textures. at the moment you can force lod 0 and use dummies for lod 1 but it's still a bit of a hassle checking out silhouettes and stuff ingame early on.
I'd also be awesome if we got more then one hero added to the workshop pool every three months. I mean, before Luna, who was the last hero added? Wasn't it abbadon when he released a few months ago?
Oh yes, there's always a need for importer improvements and fixes. I'd like for some summons to be fixed like Druid's Ult, and even more to be added like Dragon Knight's Ult among others.
it'd be neat if there was an option to disable stuff like the tri budget and texture sizes / generate generic test textures. at the moment you can force lod 0 and use dummies for lod 1 but it's still a bit of a hassle checking out silhouettes and stuff ingame early on.
I don't know if this is still the case, but that data was all client side, there should be a file somewhere you can edit that can change the poly budgets and texture resolutions. I remember doing this to get a test chicken in game before courier tools were implemented.
I'm a 3D Environment artist, and rather new to the Dota 2 item making. I've have had to learn fast how to cartoonify my otherwise realistic style, but it's been great fun.
Anyway, with my somewhat brief experience with the whole submission/voting process, then it does seem a little bewildering with what in fact happens behind the scenes.
I can see why feedback can't be given to all, but that doesn't mean it doesn't need it. If nothing else: how about a button system? It could be five colors ranging from 'Possible - to Not Being Considered', and even a combination of it - like breaking lore, color scheme or silhouette. That way people can move on to the next item (mentally), which they should do anyway, but at least there isn't that ' lost at sea' feeling.
As for high-vote items sitting in the wings for a long time, and others getting in right away after a few days, then it is odd, but I guess that is how it is.
In regards to style break and lore break, then from what I see, then it happens all the time, and it completely depends on the whim of Valve and the mood of the Workshop.
What I have noticed is that whole sets takes preference over single items - like the Anti-Mage blindfold. Which is also why - if I hit on some idea, I file it in 'later, as a full set', which means it might not ever happen.
Anyway. They need some sort of feedback system. Whether that's possible, is another matter, but artists are fickle and it would, overall - considering the time spent as item-builders, be a small thing.
Alrighty, so on reddit someone wound up making this thread. which brings up the interesting discussion on how to improve the workshop based off community suggesions. While browsing I read this idea.
"What valve should really do is incentivize the voting of items through Steam levels, DOTA XP and achievements to start."
Now, I don't know about you, but this idea seems like the golden ticket. I don't see how this idea wouldn't skyrocket workshop particpation. Tie it with the DOTA XP, vote on items, level up, earn your own items! I mean, that's got a pretty good ring to me. :thumbup:
I'm not quite sure what you mean Andrew...like if players vote they get points themselves? Wouldn't that make things worse because then they'd just upvote everything equally whether it's good or not?
I don't think there's anything wrong with the voting system as it is, and I for one, would hate to tie more into it - particularly since there's a danger of it not really being about the items, but a lot of other interests.
The Sony Workshop has a pretty good system where the devs actually communicate with the creators. Of course it's on a much smaller scale, but it sure doesn't do a whole lot of harm.
It's rewarding participation, and it wont be a way to farm consistant XP. The idea at its foundation is strong, but it does need some refinement.
Look at it like this;
You have a system in dota where leveling doesn't exponenatly grow as you progess like other systems. The way the current system works represents your participation in the game. Play the game, earn XP. Simple. And each level requires 1000 xp, that remains consistant.
Now what you can do with this is carry that over into the workshop, the xp remains to function the same way, you reward the xp for their particpation. You can offer a small ammount of XP for an upvote/downvote and additional xp for a comment. And yes, that can be as simple as the infamous "Volvo plz add this, *thumbs up*". Again, you want to reward particpation, you aren't looking for feedback and critics, if you want that you come here and post your work or press your luck on reddit.
You can offer something like 10xp(1%), maybe 5xp (.05%), when users provide their vote, upvote or downvote, doesn't matter. And another 5xp, or 10xp if they choose to leave a comment. Sure you risk some users just farming the workshop for points, but since the reward is so small it turns into a waste of time. The key is to find a reward that results into an equal ammount you would earn in from time spent in a single game of dota, and make it slightly less. This would make it a waste of time for people to farm consistantly since they'd earn more playing the game, unless their a powerfarmer and somehow achieving both, but those type of people would be limited in numbers. All this would simply provide is a thank you for taking the time to offer your opinion. If you partner this with the other suggestion I made earlier by intergrating the workshop into the "Searching for game browser" You could potentially see workshop participation skyrocket.
"Upvote, downvote, leave a comment, get xp, cut and dry. Thanks for your parcitpation."
Maybe it's a bit to far out there, but I kinda like the idea! :poly124:
The Sony Workshop has a pretty good system where the devs actually communicate with the creators. Of course it's on a much smaller scale, but it sure doesn't do a whole lot of harm.
I think that's one of the biggest thing people on the valve workshop are calling for. There seems to be a large lack of communication. But given the scale of this workshop, it's understandable in some reguard. :P
It's one way of doing it, however, I personally like that people vote on the items they would like to see make to the actual shop - like political elections. There is plenty of weird stuff going on with that too
Perhaps, on some semi-regular basis, Valve could pick either a set/item that's been added or one that's good but not been added and say what they liked, what they'd change/tweak and - if it's not been accepted - why it didn't make the cut. Even if it's "we feel it's too similar to this thing we added" or "we feel this hero's had enough items added recently".
Doesn't have to be too in-depth or a full critical breakdown. Something like the comments for the Polycount contest finalists. They've been some of the most helpful things I've read with regards to how/why Valve have selected what to add. That said, some sets are just awesome and don't need any explanation (and some are on the other end of that spectrum and don't need explanation either).
But I think it would help them direct/guide the workshop artists as a community and we'd eventually be able to get a better feel for what they're after. It helps us feel like there's a bit of communication without it being the unreasonable feedback on every item some people are asking for (and boilerplate/stock responses won't be that useful - if you get feedback just saying, for example, "Breaks lore" then that's not helpful).
I really like the random-item voting box on loading screens, beats the hell out of sitting staring at a loading screens and it's helpful, too.
This would farm up people that can collaborate with major channels/groups in return leaving all the people who wants to work alone under leveled , even if the current system needs work, this is pushing it by far and it'll only be a matter of time before it becomes a leveling game no matter how good willed u intended this to be.
It's rewarding participation, and it wont be a way to farm consistant XP. The idea at its foundation is strong, but it does need some refinement.
Look at it like this;
You have a system in dota where leveling doesn't exponenatly grow as you progess like other systems. The way the current system works represents your participation in the game. Play the game, earn XP. Simple. And each level requires 1000 xp, that remains consistant.
Now what you can do with this is carry that over into the workshop, the xp remains to function the same way, you reward the xp for their particpation. You can offer a small ammount of XP for an upvote/downvote and additional xp for a comment. And yes, that can be as simple as the infamous "Volvo plz add this, *thumbs up*". Again, you want to reward particpation, you aren't looking for feedback and critics, if you want that you come here and post your work or press your luck on reddit.
You can offer something like 10xp(1%), maybe 5xp (.05%), when users provide their vote, upvote or downvote, doesn't matter. And another 5xp, or 10xp if they choose to leave a comment. Sure you risk some users just farming the workshop for points, but since the reward is so small it turns into a waste of time. The key is to find a reward that results into an equal ammount you would earn in from time spent in a single game of dota, and make it slightly less. This would make it a waste of time for people to farm consistantly since they'd earn more playing the game, unless their a powerfarmer and somehow achieving both, but those type of people would be limited in numbers. All this would simply provide is a thank you for taking the time to offer your opinion. If you partner this with the other suggestion I made earlier by intergrating the workshop into the "Searching for game browser" You could potentially see workshop participation skyrocket.
"Upvote, downvote, leave a comment, get xp, cut and dry. Thanks for your parcitpation."
Maybe it's a bit to far out there, but I kinda like the idea! :poly124:
I think that's one of the biggest thing people on the valve workshop are calling for. There seems to be a large lack of communication. But given the scale of this workshop, it's understandable in some reguard. :P
Well, as far as minimum feedback, then it could even be just two options for Valve to submit to the artist: under consideration, or not. That way at least people (the artists) can move on.
Further up the posts, there were also some calling for the heroes that are not yet included for work - like Clockwork, Zeus, and Nightstalker, but I would think that they are not, since they're replacing the models for newer versions - like Venomancer. That would be my guess.
Yeah I am not too found of the idea of awarding XP to people leaving comments either.
If anything, the good thing about the current system is that it is totally free of any "carrots" at the end of a stick - people leave comment if they feel like it, and that's great ! I am actually very nicely surprised to see the amount of Steam users/gamers making the effort to leave ratings and comments already. I don't think there is a need for any incentive to generate more of that.
Like many have mentioned, just a little bit more of Valve presence would be enough. The private dev comment sections is available already, they just need to use it a little bit more
Replies
I for one agree with this and Lennyagony nailed it on the head. If they just had some very simple feedback system where the artist looking at your item can pick from a drop down list, or check something off in a combo box would be more than enough, and that way too Valve could have a simple uniform way to interact with the workshop community better.
Like Lennyagony posted, this seems to be the ideal solution to me at least:
"Your item has been reviewed and will not be considered for addition.
Your item's have been reviewed and will not be considered for addition in the current round but have been flagged for re review at a later date
Your item has been reviewed and will be submitted to the test client for testing
This could potentially be expanded upon
will not be considered for addition due to - Overall quality
will not be considered for addition due to - Style
will not be considered for addition due to - Silhouette
Or any other regular issues, or combination of issues etc. "
Yeah, that would definitely be helpful to the artist. Though having been in the fantastical world of outsourcing feedback myself, I sure wouldn't wanna be the one who has to go through and do that for eight million rejected workshop submissions (which, to be fair, you'd have to do, along with actually opening and reviewing those models). That's not even getting into what it would mean for the other Valve games with workshopsv:
But yeah, I totally get what you're saying.
unless I missed it I don't think anyone was asking for Valve to do hand holding nor specific feedback or critiques on everyone's items. That's what polycount and other game art communities are here for (and quite good at!). More communication/transparency to the community IN GENERAL (not just us) was one of the big points I took away from Diretide, and outside of that, stuff like Lenny mentioned seemed like a good proposal. We all would rather have them work on new heroes, breakdowns, game updates, etc. but I don't think it has to be 'one or the other' when it comes to them speaking out to the community vs getting work done.
yikes, simultaneous post! haha
update:
Yeah, I don't think it would be necessary to do it for every single one. That wouldn't make sense. personally I'm thinking with edge cases (like "this WOULD be great but 1 tiny thing...", which to be fair they seem to be doing!), and stuff flagged for approval/acceptance in the future, just to ease our anticipation. But who knows, maybe half the fun is not knowing until the day of for some people?
second edit:
Also great point about the other valve workshop games. It's definitely something to keep in mind, as Dota 2 isn't the only game with workshop support. I do think a lot of changes proposed in this thread however would benefit all the workshops, but when it comes down to the 'leaving notes' thing, I can absolutely see that getting overwhelming very quickly, unless they had one person dedicated to the job.
I should have added this in my original post. I would in no way expect Valve to go back and give feedback on any already submitted model. I feel if they implemented something like this it would be a from now on going forward thing, but this could also lead to the issue of people resubmitting old items to get the feedback. As awesome as this would be I can totally see the double edge sword, pandora's box situation this could lead to
1. The division between Pro Sets <-> Independent Stuff.
I think it's really cool the idea make stuff for pro teams, but it needs to be separated from the indepent stuff.
2. Workshop page needs to be more intuitive or make the visitors to check more stuff then look at the first page.
The suggestion is more related to the web design of the workshop page, which I feel like: "should I browse other pages to see and like more stuff or just check the weekly top?"
So this is my suggestion:
Ok I'm not good with web design, but I guess a more intuitive buttons could encourage people to browse more. Also added a "Random" Button, to help those items that are left in the dark.
Absolutely, I meant to mention something like this earlier but it slipped my mind. I feel like Pro/Indie sets should be on separate pages in the workshop, and maybe in the store too, but I think the new found price disparity already kind of separates them.
The problem with separating them in the workshop then becomes, which has priority for those stopping in to browse? Is it a valid or even fair solution? Is the page then split in two, or is it two separate pages? Would it just create a further divide between those with pro set opportunities and those without? It's interesting, I don't have a solution but I think you are hitting on a topic worth discussing.
I would be satisfied if at least sets have their own division, and taking just 1 slot at the workshop. It feels silly making a set and people voting each element separated, since if it's aproved all the items are going anyway.
Also I forgot to mention single items section, it needs more love.
The random button is an excellent idea, and also having it ingame at idle times or at the press of a button (if the player wants it, of course) could really work well.
I would personally love to have a solid search field in the Workshop page too - smart enough to search for heroes, set names, item names, and author(s) names. I was looking for a specific set made by a friend the other day and had a hard time finding it, even though I knew the hero it was for and the names of the artists.
At the end of the day it all really depends on how Valve reads their own metrics. Do they just browse items randomly and cherry pick what feels right ? Do they just look at the best rated from the previous weeks, and discuss that ? And so on.
Now I have no problem with their process being quite organic, and if one day they decide to go and have a look at "all" the thousands of already submitted items, they can do that too. But I am still really concerned with the fact that items sit idle for weeks or months, even after receiving good ratings and visibility. The Coco courier by JFletcher comes to mind again - I really don't understand why it is not available in the store yet, or at least flagged by Valve as "will be added to the game for sure". I would think that from the artist's perspective it's really a weird situation to be in.
Considering the time and effort involved in creating such a piece, I think it is Valve's responsibility to take the time and acknowledge it fully. It is free work (and eventually free money) gracefully given to them, after all !
Coco actually just went in this patch, so no worries in that regard. I think most people who have been doing this for a while have accepted they might need to wait weeks to months potentially for their items to get in. The key is to just keep submitting new stuff at this point.
Come on, are you serious?
That's awesome to hear, what a great courier. c:
Also, Chemical : maybe I phrased it poorly ? I am just saying that from an artist's perspective (on both sides : the Valve art team, and the workshop contributors), this kind of work obviously represents a huge amount of time and energy. Concept, modelling, texturing, animations, promotion ... If after that, things stay idle for months without any feedback as to why (two months for Coco, and 10 months for the BroodMother set), I think that is a bit of a problem.
Now don't get me wrong, I think it is great how the Workshop lets artists submit freely whatever they want, especially since its self-regulating nature ensures that items remain very lore-friendly and the quality levels are very high. But if it comes at the price of being left in the dark for months after such a time investment, then I understand that, as mentioned earlier, some artists decided to leave the Workshop scene altogether. Personally I don't mind the current system too much, as I like the idea of just making art for the fun of it. But I can see how it can be very frustrating too !
Oh, believe me, I know what that feels like. But like Oroboros said, in general you gotta just keep creating quality stuff and eventually something will pay off. As much as I think we'd all love more info about our submissions at times (and it's great when I receive some), I certainly don't expect or feel entitled to it. The workshop is a big place, and it's only getting bigger.
If people want to leave because they feel it's too frustrating, risky or it doesn't suit their working style, that totally makes sense. In my case, I recently quit my studio job (along with Dry) so I'd be able to dedicate a full-time schedule to making stuff and have greater success in the workshop.
I guess I just don't equate time or hard work spent to guaranteed acceptance or attention. There's a lot of people making stuff these days, and competition is growing. It can be fun and it can definitely be rewarding, but it's obviously just not for everyone.
Anyway, just two more of my cents.
In regards to how Valve chooses items or when they choose to implement them? It's really not something you can predict, but you can definitely be reassured that doing quality work rarely goes unrecognized.
If it does, and that is how it feels some times, there might be factors like say, an armor set being created for a hero that's in the middle of being reworked by Valve, or too much saturation of items for a particular hero. For example: Omniknight hasn't had any cosmetics accepted for close to a year due to them experimenting with a red color scheme for him (Which just went live), that required them to retint all the existing cosmetics. The development process seems to be just as organic, as evidenced by the amount of hero reworks recently.
While i completely get why would anyone wants some clear indication that his hard work was reviewed, i don't think that's a good idea. Receiving dev comment now means a great lot for people, can you imagine what they'll get through after they get "it's okay" mark and will have to sit through 6 months of patches, without their items in sight?
There's a reason this exists:
There are bunch of reasons why something gets in or doesn't, be it something technical, poor timing, stylistical inconsistencies, market oversaturation, the amount of work needed for it to be added and so on. But this doesn't mean that Valve should waste time by explaining everything they do, mostly since it takes out of their actual work time and because, clearly, almost every submission has their own reasons for (not) being added.
I do wish they'd spread more "This item is incompatible with D2", to kind of steer the submissions style, but as far as i can tell, they don't want to limit your creativity by highlighting something and openly declining something else.
Many of you wonder why some "quality" submissions don't get in, this happens mostly because good model does not mean that it's a good Dota 2 submission. And let's not get into the issue of mixing the items. So in the end it comes to the individual preference, and when you think about it, Valve did a great job in representing every facet of D2 workshop, taking mostly out of how they look ingame, not because of the hand-painted promo, team or organisation promoting the item, or sick 2048 textures that actually get downsized to 256 and loses every last detail.
As for the actual workshop layout and the representation of the submissions, there was a time when top 3 showed most recent/some random fresh submissions and i think that was one of the best ways to handle it. Top 3 gets the most views, and by exposing fresh stuff there you can bring the attention to the new stuff, instead of pouring another 1000 votes into already 10000 times upvoted submision.
Adding workshop to the match search sounds like a good idea, but in fact it'll just help flashy promos. The Greenlight way is the best, i think. You get a queue of items to vote for, easy to navigate, clear instructions, if sets are going to be grouped in the futre, i think it could work out nicely.
I recently submitted an item (like a week ago) and it recieved many down votes. I forgot to put in-game pics but it seems people just vote just base on the thumbnail (all I had was the thumbnail). Nobody bothered to inform me that I was missing ingame pics or even asked!
So I propose a new system.
Voters can only vote if they provide constructive critisism. They can either write one themselves or choose from categories such as "Too much saturation" "Breaks silhoulette". Then these comments are made public for the community to decide if the comment was true or not. If it wasn't then the voter would be punished somehow. If it is true, then the author gets constructive critisim and improve his skills.
The dota 2 workshop isn't just filtering the good and bad items. Its also to improve the bad items so that it can work in dota 2. I'm not saying all bad Items can be improved (Like ones that break lore) but problems with color and scale could be fixed.
I'm just kind of tired of seeing negative votes without getting a reason why or any comments on how to improve with the item.
Of course this system cannot be applied for 3rd parties and team backed items because lets face it. The fans would just say "Hey its good" no matter how bad it is and would rate the bad comments(the ones saying "It breaks lore") down.
Totally agree with this!
that sounds about as effective as the ingame commend system
i.e. not very
Improvement is always better.
Edit: Also about commenting on items while waiting for the game to load (like the minigame) would be a good idea. But instead of having pre-determined items, it'll be items less than X amount of votes. Of course there would have to be a better UI.
People are to blame for your mistake! I've seen "Needs ingame pics" comments a bunch of times, getting downvoted one time doesn't mean that we should go all nazi on the comments.
That's laughable, opinions are not something you should be punished for, and very few of the workshop commenters have necessary skills/ability to provide proper critique.
It's not.
And you're saying yourself that this wouldn't work.
Eh... I think limiting comments would actually hinder the workshop. Part of what makes the workshop fun is the mindless user comments
http://www.dota2.com/workshop/requirements
If your models don't get accepted, you should know why. Then again, they can't accept every model that's submitted.
I've seen a bunch of awesome weapons and clothing that are lurking in the workshop.
In the end it's just a combination of how uprated the item is and weather or not the Dota2 admins will like it.
The only thing I would like added is if the public can test an item in-game before voting/purchase.
If Valve can somehow implement an in-game model viewer in the browser, that would be so convenient for everyone.
Danpaz: Like you said, they can't accept everything that is submitted. The requirements page only scratches the surface of how to get an accepted item though. If Valve could expand a little more about acceptance procedure that would help a lot. Like HOW do they pick items? Does character popularity and market saturation effect it as much as WE think it does? There's a lot of amazing items and sets that are still sitting in the Workshop with high ratings.
Even knowing that Valve is a very relaxed company, for being run by such a big company the Workshop is still very unorganized and chaotic in regards to end-game for contributors.
I'm curious as to how Greenlight works as well since its a similar feature as the Workshop. If a game receives a set number of votes does it go up on Steam? Or is it more arbitrary community approval with no timeline for acceptance?
I'm not saying to punish the comments that are true, I'm saying to punish those that are not. Plus, the comments can always be on a from a set list of critiques, like plain or something. Its not like everyone would just say that a comment is bogus just because they don't like it.
If the dota2 worskhop isn't also to improve submissions, why is there a feature to edit submissions? Because changes could be made to improve an item. Be it scale, color, etc.
I said that this way wouldn't work with fans because they would just vote it up like the earlier asian anti mage set. That's why I said that teams and 3rd parties would have to be excluded.
Maybe the crits could be a poll, like from a set list therefore the author(s) can see whats the problem. It would have to be split into categories like, Animation, Texture, Lore, Rigg.
How about this? Disregard the idea of voting on other people's crits. This system would be completely anonymous and only the author(s) of the item can see the results.
A poll system:
It goes on how the rater likes or dislikes the item/set.
Likes:
Nothing really necesarry here but there can always be options on what they like.
It would be worded like " I like the ____ of the item"
-texture
-shape
-idea
-etc
Dislike:
This category would be in the opinion of the voter.
These would be separated in different categories which have sub categories
-Animation
-clipping occurs
-does not fit personality of the character
-Texture
-too noisy
-too plain
-Doesn't fit color scheme
-Lore
basically its whether it fits the lore or not. It doesn't really need a subcategory
-Shape
- It breaks silhouette
- Its something the hero cannot use (Like a hammer/sword for axe's primary weapon or a staff for pugna)
- Its silhouette isn't unique.
-Rigg
-off centered or something.
(maybe others if i'm missing some)
The system would be a dropdown menu after the vote and must be completed for the vote to count. It will be completely anonymous and people can choose multiple areas.
Atleast this way, the author(s) can see what people don't like about the item.
By all indications the workshop only exists to weed out the good items from the bad so that Valve does not need to sort through them themselves. Greenlight works this exact same way, so Valve has already set precedence for it.
Furthermore like cagdasx44 said, the people who vote for submissions on the workshop rarely give usable feedback which takes into account the processes we have to go through. In fact I believe a lot of voters don't even look for in-game images - a lot of them probably just look at the nice promo image, leave a vote and go on their way without a second thought to what the item actually looks like. All they're concerned with is whether the item looks good to them. That does not always mean they can help pinpoint what's wrong with it when it doesn't.
I think the voting system works well as it is now - it's simple and quick which makes it easy to get lots of votes for or against. Given it's purpose as a way of making good work visible to Valve, I believe it does its job well. I think the issue is more with how much visibility is available, and what ways there are to make more visibility available.
I guess i misjudged the purpose of the workshop. I was hoping to know why some people don't like the item. Besides, voting based on presentation isn't really worth anything. You can have good looking food that tastes disgusting and bad looking food that tastes delicious.
Also, some Steam users *do* take the time to write down actual comments on there already, and some of these are very valuable because of how honest (and sometimes harsh) they can be. I think that between such raw gamer comments and the more carefully worded critiques here on Polycount, one has access to all the necessary metrics needed to know whether or not an item has a chance to make it to the store.
On the subject of promo images and sexy thumbnails : I have to say that I was a bit surprised by how important they are at first (especially after working at studios where the only thing that really matters is the quality of the asset itself, not how shiny and sexy its presentation is), but in the context of the workshop I think this is simply the nature of the beast. After all, we are making tiny RTS assets, occupying just a few pixels on a screen. Therefore, the promo image and thumbnails are just as important as the asset itself, in the sense that they sell the idea of the item, which helps suspension of disbelief and creates that special connection with the player. Just like the character selection screens in older fighting games, showing you a badass portrait of a character that is only a few dozen of pixels tall on screen.
Also I think that having to create nice thumbnails and attractive promotional images is an interesting exercise - a nice occasion to step outside one's comfort zone. It does take time and energy, but I think it is worth it. And after all, Valve evens the field once they put the items in store anyways, with their very neutral screenshots on grey background. I think that's a fair system in that regard.
It's okay I understand how you feel. It sucks not to have the feedback you'd like to hear. But believe me, people have difficulties in offering their comments. Thoughts aren't easy to translate into words most of the time, it takes effort to think carefully before they post. Some are afraid what they said might sound offensive, some are just terrible at explaining they think, some are too busy to share their opinion. Personally, I'm glad enough to receive comments from the Workshop, because if they leave a comment they gave a damn about my submissions! Just face it, ALL Steam users are gamers in general. They aren't professionally trained critics.
Why asking for critiques when you already have Polycount? Here we have amazing artists offering great and constructive advices for you to improve. I learned so much from the community here since the first day I joined (you guys rock). If you'd like to know why the votes aren't doing justice, I believe we can help you explain.
We ARE artists come on, if we're capable of creating kickass cosmetics, learning to create more appealing promo images wouldn't hurt! People still judge books by their covers, must well invest more time in marketing assets. Not to say we should let go of our technical skills, getting better at promo designs bring a lot of benefits! (It's for your own good, believe me) I attend artist alley in conventions now and then and I couldn't express how important appeal is to general audience! What attracts people sells, but doesn't mean you should let go of your technical skills. To put it simple, if you can do something good, make it better.
(Took me a while to translate my thoughts properly in this reply, it's really not easy for me to comment haha ;____; )
it'd be neat if there was an option to disable stuff like the tri budget and texture sizes / generate generic test textures. at the moment you can force lod 0 and use dummies for lod 1 but it's still a bit of a hassle checking out silhouettes and stuff ingame early on.
I don't know if this is still the case, but that data was all client side, there should be a file somewhere you can edit that can change the poly budgets and texture resolutions. I remember doing this to get a test chicken in game before courier tools were implemented.
I'll see if I can dig that up again.
Anyway, with my somewhat brief experience with the whole submission/voting process, then it does seem a little bewildering with what in fact happens behind the scenes.
I can see why feedback can't be given to all, but that doesn't mean it doesn't need it. If nothing else: how about a button system? It could be five colors ranging from 'Possible - to Not Being Considered', and even a combination of it - like breaking lore, color scheme or silhouette. That way people can move on to the next item (mentally), which they should do anyway, but at least there isn't that ' lost at sea' feeling.
As for high-vote items sitting in the wings for a long time, and others getting in right away after a few days, then it is odd, but I guess that is how it is.
In regards to style break and lore break, then from what I see, then it happens all the time, and it completely depends on the whim of Valve and the mood of the Workshop.
What I have noticed is that whole sets takes preference over single items - like the Anti-Mage blindfold. Which is also why - if I hit on some idea, I file it in 'later, as a full set', which means it might not ever happen.
Anyway. They need some sort of feedback system. Whether that's possible, is another matter, but artists are fickle and it would, overall - considering the time spent as item-builders, be a small thing.
Thanks.
two_larsens Workshop:
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198065679225/myworkshopfiles/?appid=570
Portfolio
http://www.henriks3dworld.com/
Now, I don't know about you, but this idea seems like the golden ticket. I don't see how this idea wouldn't skyrocket workshop particpation. Tie it with the DOTA XP, vote on items, level up, earn your own items! I mean, that's got a pretty good ring to me. :thumbup:
The Sony Workshop has a pretty good system where the devs actually communicate with the creators. Of course it's on a much smaller scale, but it sure doesn't do a whole lot of harm.
Look at it like this;
You have a system in dota where leveling doesn't exponenatly grow as you progess like other systems. The way the current system works represents your participation in the game. Play the game, earn XP. Simple. And each level requires 1000 xp, that remains consistant.
Now what you can do with this is carry that over into the workshop, the xp remains to function the same way, you reward the xp for their particpation. You can offer a small ammount of XP for an upvote/downvote and additional xp for a comment. And yes, that can be as simple as the infamous "Volvo plz add this, *thumbs up*". Again, you want to reward particpation, you aren't looking for feedback and critics, if you want that you come here and post your work or press your luck on reddit.
You can offer something like 10xp(1%), maybe 5xp (.05%), when users provide their vote, upvote or downvote, doesn't matter. And another 5xp, or 10xp if they choose to leave a comment. Sure you risk some users just farming the workshop for points, but since the reward is so small it turns into a waste of time. The key is to find a reward that results into an equal ammount you would earn in from time spent in a single game of dota, and make it slightly less. This would make it a waste of time for people to farm consistantly since they'd earn more playing the game, unless their a powerfarmer and somehow achieving both, but those type of people would be limited in numbers. All this would simply provide is a thank you for taking the time to offer your opinion. If you partner this with the other suggestion I made earlier by intergrating the workshop into the "Searching for game browser" You could potentially see workshop participation skyrocket.
"Upvote, downvote, leave a comment, get xp, cut and dry. Thanks for your parcitpation."
Maybe it's a bit to far out there, but I kinda like the idea! :poly124:
I think that's one of the biggest thing people on the valve workshop are calling for. There seems to be a large lack of communication. But given the scale of this workshop, it's understandable in some reguard. :P
Doesn't have to be too in-depth or a full critical breakdown. Something like the comments for the Polycount contest finalists. They've been some of the most helpful things I've read with regards to how/why Valve have selected what to add. That said, some sets are just awesome and don't need any explanation (and some are on the other end of that spectrum and don't need explanation either).
But I think it would help them direct/guide the workshop artists as a community and we'd eventually be able to get a better feel for what they're after. It helps us feel like there's a bit of communication without it being the unreasonable feedback on every item some people are asking for (and boilerplate/stock responses won't be that useful - if you get feedback just saying, for example, "Breaks lore" then that's not helpful).
I really like the random-item voting box on loading screens, beats the hell out of sitting staring at a loading screens and it's helpful, too.
Further up the posts, there were also some calling for the heroes that are not yet included for work - like Clockwork, Zeus, and Nightstalker, but I would think that they are not, since they're replacing the models for newer versions - like Venomancer. That would be my guess.
If anything, the good thing about the current system is that it is totally free of any "carrots" at the end of a stick - people leave comment if they feel like it, and that's great ! I am actually very nicely surprised to see the amount of Steam users/gamers making the effort to leave ratings and comments already. I don't think there is a need for any incentive to generate more of that.
Like many have mentioned, just a little bit more of Valve presence would be enough. The private dev comment sections is available already, they just need to use it a little bit more