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Maya LT

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  • osman
    Police what? How do they police AAA to prevent them from pirating it currently? It's a silly argument from AD.
  • pior
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    pior high dynamic range
    Exactly - Big studios don't use pirated software (that is to say : a program that they do not have the proper license for) because it would be catastrophic economically if an audit was being performed and revealed such illegal use.

    Similarly, even if AD does not "police" every use of Maya LT, no big studio would ever use it if the license of LT states that it is for indies or small studios only - because that would mean that they are using a program that they do not have the proper license for, which is exactly like pirating.
  • iniside
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    iniside polycounter lvl 6
    It depends on license. Because studio can be composed entirely of individual self-employed contractors, even if they work in the same building (;.
  • osman
    iniside wrote: »
    It depends on license. Because studio can be composed entirely of individual self-employed contractors, even if they work in the same building (;.

    Then if I were AD I'd applaud them for going through so much trouble to just save money and let them be. Honestly, how often do you think that will happen? And is it worth it to punish the majority that is playing by the rules just because there MIGHT be someone finding a way to bypass the license terms?
  • spacefrog
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    spacefrog polycounter lvl 11
    pior wrote: »
    Exactly - Big studios don't use pirated software (that is to say : a program that they do not have the proper license for) because it would be catastrophic economically if an audit is was being performed and revealed such illegal use.
    There once (or even twice ?) was the case of a big, prominent triple AAA studio and engine manifactor around 2004, where exactly that happened :) But i guess nowadays thats a total different story
  • Equanim
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    Equanim polycounter lvl 6
    One of their main objectives is not to cannibalize existing seats of the full version, which is understandable. If the cheaper version does enough for mid-range studios to use it, then indies and contractors might follow, and no one pays 3.5k for Maya anymore. Autodesk's investors get ticked and the company takes a beating.

    I think the real problem, at least in games, is that a lot of Autodesk users are there only because it's marketable to know their software. If Modo was the standard and Autodesk tried to sell at its current price point, they'd be laughed out of the room even with all of the additional features.

    They've said they want LT to be a long term project, so maybe in a version or two they'll figure it out. I'm glad they're taking feedback and participating in the discussion though.
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    Equanim wrote: »
    One of their main objectives is not to cannibalize existing seats of the full version, which is understandable. If the cheaper version does enough for mid-range studios to use it, then indies and contractors might follow, and no one pays 3.5k for Maya anymore. Autodesk's investors get ticked and the company takes a beating.

    I think the real problem, at least in games, is that a lot of Autodesk users are there only because it's marketable to know their software. If Modo was the standard and Autodesk tried to sell at its current price point, they'd be laughed out of the room even with all of the additional features.

    They've said they want LT to be a long term project, so maybe in a version or two they'll figure it out. I'm glad they're taking feedback and participating in the discussion though.


    And I can totally understand this. I've been somewhat negative in my previous posts and I don't want to be too hard on you guys over at Autodesk. I can really appreciate what you guys are trying to do and having a solid package at an affordable price would be a great thing. I just don't feel that it is quite there yet with some of the current limitations. That being said, I hope you guys get this fixed up and I do hope you deliver a quality product.
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 7
    Equanim wrote: »
    One of their main objectives is not to cannibalize existing seats of the full version, which is understandable. If the cheaper version does enough for mid-range studios to use it, then indies and contractors might follow, and no one pays 3.5k for Maya anymore. Autodesk's investors get ticked and the company takes a beating.

    But I think that ends up being the difference between selling 100 copies of a $700 version to maybe 10 of the $3500 version. In other words, the sheer accessibility of a fully functional, non crippled streamlined version of maya can generate much more revenue by sheer quantity due to accessibility. They would probably be able to make more with studios hiring more and having more seats than less, and with users, even hobbyist, picking up Maya for home use without taking a financial hit.
    A lot of users wont even use Maya for half its features, but it would still need to be full featured with the ones it does have.
    They've said they want LT to be a long term project, so maybe in a version or two they'll figure it out. I'm glad they're taking feedback and participating in the discussion though.

    The question is then, if they make changes based on feedback, do existing users have to pay for that in the form of an upgrade fee? If so that sends the message that its best to not buy LT and wait to see what happens. If so, the low sales numbers might send the wrong message that its not wanted.
  • Ged
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    Ged interpolator
    Dataday wrote: »
    The question is then, if they make changes based on feedback, do existing users have to pay for that in the form of an upgrade fee? If so that sends the message that its best to not buy LT and wait to see what happens. If so, the low sales numbers might send the wrong message that its not wanted.

    Maybe it would be worth getting the monthly subscription just to try it out and see if it meets your needs and hopefully in a few months there will be more clarity as to wether the needed support/features will be implemented?
  • EarthQuake
    Man this thread, at first autodesk was all like MAYA LT ITS COOL BRO!

    And then polycount was like:

    tumblr_mrw02tpY3l1sped3xo1_400.gif

    Every Maya centric project that I've worked on has relied on some form of mel script to prep a model for export.

    Scripting in Maya is one of the biggest reasons why someone would use Maya over any other 3d app.

    Maya without mel to me is like:
    Max without the modifier stack
    Modo without sub-d centric modeling tools
    Zbrush without sculpting.

    I would love to see a stripped down Maya that was more game focused, to me that would look something like:
    A. good poly modeling tools, for lowpoly and high poly sub-d work (for baking normals)
    B. good uvs tools
    C. texture baking tools (normals, ao, displacement, etc)
    D. vertex painting and baking tools, either for vertex lighting or for texture blending
    E. game-centric rigging and animation tools
    F. lightmap baking tools
    G. scripting
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    praetus wrote: »
    And I can totally understand this. I've been somewhat negative in my previous posts and I don't want to be too hard on you guys over at Autodesk. I can really appreciate what you guys are trying to do and having a solid package at an affordable price would be a great thing. I just don't feel that it is quite there yet with some of the current limitations. That being said, I hope you guys get this fixed up and I do hope you deliver a quality product.

    Artists are generally passionate people so I completely understand when folks get upset or react in a negative way but the feedback here has been really solid and helped us open up some more discussions internally. The entire team here has listened to folks on forums, twitter and throughout the week here at Unite and as we've said before we are dedicated to making this a really great product and hope you can help guide us in doing that. Keep up the great feedback and help keep us moving in the right direction.
  • JacqueChoi
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    JacqueChoi interpolator
    There's really no way I can address this product without piling on the already huge list of gripes this community obviously has with this product. (Keep in mind, a majority of us are VERY passionate about our Autodesk products, which is why this backlash is as harsh as it's been).

    The problem isn't the idea behind the product itself, the problem is the ENTIRE PARADIGM you guys at Autodesk are using to approach it.

    As software developers ourselves, we WILL buy into concepts. We WILL buy into newer methods of doing things. We are totally on board with newer distribution models, streamlined tools, and less-bloated software. We simply need explanations as to what the benefits are.

    The only caveat is if the answer is 'profitability', we likely won't be on board with it.


    So with that frame of reference in mind:

    When we read about a feature such as '25k' poly limit, we naturally think the absolute WORSE things about the rationale behind it.

    Can you give us a reasonable explanation as to why that was put in? Because right now we see it as a completely unnecessary cash-grab. You mentioned you spoke to many developers. Was there a large list of developer that asked for that limit for any particular reason?

    And this doesn't simply stop at this particular feature. The optics right now is that EVERYTHING (aside from the price cut) has absolutely nothing to do with helping artists/indies, and more about maximizing profitability.
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    A. good poly modeling tools, for lowpoly and high poly sub-d work (for baking normals)
    B. good uvs tools
    C. texture baking tools (normals, ao, displacement, etc)
    D. vertex painting and baking tools, either for vertex lighting or for texture blending
    E. game-centric rigging and animation tools
    F. lightmap baking tools
    G. scripting

    I agree that is a good list.
    I think we are on our way with Maya LT, but obviously it isn't completely right yet.

    But you are missing something on your list:

    Marmoset in the Maya LT viewport...
    When is that coming? I would love to see something like that!
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    So we spoke with a lot of Unity users, folks at casual connect and reached out to some smaller shops in various cities we had team members to speak with mobile developers. That really is the core focus here is the indie mobile crowd looking to create assets for iOS, Android, Windows Phone etc. For some folks here operating in the AA and AAA space with big publishers this definitely isn't going to be up your alley for day to day work and that's where the full seats of Maya come into play. For the mobile guys it never really came up as a huge deal for them to be capped at 25,000 polygons on export when we spoke with them but we also knew that when this went public a much broader audience would be involved and chime in as well.
  • Xoliul
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    Xoliul polycounter lvl 10
    How about the lack of scripting? How did they feel about that?
    Also, is part of the reason for no scripting because one could just write their own Exporter and circumvent the 25k limit?
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    Scripting was a tough call but the opinions were mixed and we ended up without scripting. I think given the feedback here it's evident that scripting is a necessity so we'll see what we can do. Actually you wouldn't be able to circumvent the 25k limit as it's part of the FBX plugin in LT so even if you used MEL to call into FBX to write the file to disk you'd hit the limitation.
  • radiancef0rge
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    radiancef0rge Polycount Sponsor
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    I would love to see a stripped down Maya that was more game focused, to me that would look something like:
    A. good poly modeling tools, for lowpoly and high poly sub-d work (for baking normals)
    B. good uvs tools
    C. texture baking tools (normals, ao, displacement, etc)
    D. vertex painting and baking tools, either for vertex lighting or for texture blending
    E. game-centric rigging and animation tools
    F. lightmap baking tools
    G. scripting

    just curious what other than mel is not included in that list?
    The development is an ongoing process, and the feedback here has certainly created some positive discussion on the beta forums.
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    Scripting was a tough call but the opinions were mixed and we ended up without scripting. I think given the feedback here it's evident that scripting is a necessity so we'll see what we can do. Actually you wouldn't be able to circumvent the 25k limit as it's part of the FBX plugin in LT so even if you used MEL to call into FBX to write the file to disk you'd hit the limitation.

    cant you just export multiple <25k files from LT and combine them later elsewhere to form bigger files ?
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    MM wrote: »
    cant you just export multiple <25k files from LT and combine them later elsewhere to form bigger files ?

    You can and are free to do this.
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 7
    Its a lot like having a small yard, one that wouldnt really make sense to house a horse in....and then you are told by some horse breeder named "Otto Deesk" that you can just get a Pony, its like a horse but much smaller and it wont break your bank. Great for small yards!

    So lets say you go ahead and buy into it, you always wanted a horse but just couldnt do it with with a small yard and limited funds.

    Otto brings over the pony and says "here it is, oh but first I got to prep her for sale". He then proceeds to grab a sledge hammer and smash it down on the pony's back leg. "That should do it". Now lets say at this point, like any rational human being you would be like "wtf dude! why? what is wrong with you"...

    Well Otto has an answer for that, "well y'see here. I sell these here big horses for lots of money, and I cant have no one thinking you can get a small horse that cheap, espe'ssally one that can walk on 4 legs like them big horses. See if its limpin and cant be ridden the same way as them big horses over there, I wont have to be worried about losin them customers."

    To Otto, it doesnt matter that a small pony cant have the same pulling power as a full fledged work horse, or that it cant run at the same speed, or cant be used in horse shows to win nice prize money, if it still looks and walks like a normal horse its a problem.

    Lets just hope Otto gets the message that the sledge hammer approach isnt needed.
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    shaderfx wrote: »
    You can and are free to do this.

    well then i am confused why the 25k native export limit is in there to begin with ?

    the OBJ export limitation also seems to have a work around with FBX converter but most likely at the risk of messed up tangent space information as far as i seen.

    so why these couple of limitations that have some sort of annoying work around ?

    at the end of the day if they are not hardcore locks then why throw them in there at all ? it just adds more reason for someone to not buy Maya LT.
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    MM wrote: »
    so why these couple of limitations that have some sort of annoying work around ?

    I 'think' the goal was to say: "Hey, this is for Indies, so don't use it to create film assets", but I think the message has been heard loud and clear users want us to do this differently. :)
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    i thought we were not suppose to be install MEL scripts!

    it seems that it is fairly easy to install a simple third party script like MJPoly Tools and it works.

    there is no script editor but any commands can be made into buttons manually and put in custom shelves like shown here:

    4oXDNuu.jpg

    is this another fake limitation with the added botheration of no native MEL script editor...
  • Froyok
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    Froyok Polycount Sponsor
    MM wrote: »
    the OBJ export limitation also seems to have a work around with FBX converter but most likely at the risk of messed up tangent space information as far as i seen.
    There is no tangent space information inside the OBJ format so I doubt the FBX converter will break it.
  • Xoliul
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    Xoliul polycounter lvl 10
    MM wrote: »
    i thought we were not suppose to be install MEL scripts!

    it seems that it is fairly easy to install a simple third party script like MJPoly Tools and it works.

    there is no script editor but any commands can be made into buttons manually and put in custom shelves like shown here:



    is this another fake limitation with the added botheration of no native MEL script editor...

    Errr, this is interesting. I was wondering already, since so much in Maya is based around script commands.
    If this is a bug: please don't fix it Autodesk, this is great. If it's not a bug, you should really communicate that "no scripting" means no authoring of scripts, but that you can still run them. This makes it a whole lot more interesting already: the average user doesn't author scripts himself anyway.
  • monster
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    monster Polycount Sponsor
    Xoliul wrote: »
    "no scripting" means no authoring of scripts, but that you can still run them. This makes it a whole lot more interesting already: the average user doesn't author scripts himself anyway

    I would deem this acceptable and am ready to purchase about 6 copies over the next few months. If that is the case, and if it loads python modules. Our small art team will grow a little more from now until the end of the year.
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    Xoliul wrote: »
    I was wondering already, since so much in Maya is based around script commands.

    Yes exactly, Maya itself uses a LOT of mel everywhere so it needs to be able to run scripts or there would be not much left of a UI :)
  • ysalex
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    ysalex interpolator
    monster wrote: »
    I would deem this acceptable and am ready to purchase about 6 copies over the next few months. If that is the case, and if it loads python modules. Our small art team will grow a little more from now until the end of the year.


    Yeah, I'd take that too, but the obj restriction still bothers me. I might might might even be able to live with the 25K thing, but I move back and forth between zbrush and Maya too much to add the file conversion step into the process.

    Would really like to be able to use that shaderFX though, looks great.

    It's too bad, because I get the feeling that in this thread you have a couple of ADesk employees who are trying to do the best they can by the devs, who realize that these decisions are maybe not the most dev-friendly, who are having to explain away these problems without actually blaming the people at the top who have made these decisions. Decisions based on something other than what is good for their product or for the devs.
  • Xoliul
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    Xoliul polycounter lvl 10
    shaderfx wrote: »
    Yes exactly, Maya itself uses a LOT of mel everywhere so it needs to be able to run scripts or there would be not much left of a UI :)

    In that case I'd make it a top-priority to communicate this well. This changes the perception of MayaLT quite a lot imo.
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 9
    Xoliul wrote: »
    In that case I'd make it a top-priority to communicate this well. This changes the perception of MayaLT quite a lot imo.

    it would not be possible to remove the Mel from Maya all ui and keys run Mel or python commands, and the marking menus and tool uis are generated with all Mel.
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    Xoliul wrote: »
    In that case I'd make it a top-priority to communicate this well. This changes the perception of MayaLT quite a lot imo.

    I agree.
    I think the exact offering for scripting/poly caps and many other things are still being explored by management in order to find the right balance between the right solution for Indie developers, while not hurting the regular Maya market.

    We cannot really say that Maya LT v1 has full scripting, because it simply has not at this time.

    I think/hope we will get there. I really like the energy and momentum we have in the new Games Team at Autodesk, so I am hopeful we will find the right balance for the majority of people who Maya LT is for.
  • Entity
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    Entity polycounter lvl 14
    Well, if you can run scripts this certainly makes MayaLT an interesting package for asset authoring!
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    i am wondering, if a team of 5 devs get 4 MayaLT seats for regular devs and 1 Maya core seat for the inhouse tech/tools guy then will it be possible to implement the tools created in Maya core into those MayaLT seats ?

    also please integrate shaderFX into Maya core because one should not have to buy both Maya core and Maya LT just to be able to use all Maya feature. Maya core should have everything Maya LT has.

    if ADSK is worried about maya core market then they should really reconsider their subscription pricing/system. monthly sub like the adobe creative cloud model where you pay per month with annual commitment could be more profitable in the long term while being more affordable.Maya core could easily be $70-$100 a month (for single user) and that could be a steady $1200 annually forever. you would have to keep paying every month to keep using it like adobe CC does so this means a steady stream of revenue. right now one can just buy a single seat for $3675 and not upgrade for 5 years but with monthly pay it will be $6000 in 5 years and so on.
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 9
    atm I just see things just stacking up against Maya LT, crippled fbx with the limit, no proper scripting or plugins, lack of obj and plugins makes it hard to have Maya lt play along with zbrush for making base meshes. The price point is just too similar to products such as modo which offer a lot more for just a little more money.

    For the cost give me a reason to not spend a little more for modo?

    all of the things im marking against it are artificial limits as well that are just there to cripple it.

    if you wanted to remove parts of maya for indie game dev, it really should be things like mental ray, and maya dynamics and features more pointed to film.

    the only real feature it has for indie dev is shader fx which really dosnt matter much unless there is a way to have shaders made in in carry over to game engines like unity.

    think they might just make a little more offering maya with a new cheaper indie license, since poeple like me due to the large cost of maya dont upgrade often, example im on 2012 atm, and see no reason to jump to 2014 and unless 2015 when it comes out has a amazing feature set i still prolly wont upgrade due to it costing too much to do so.

    so there loseing a lot from me since i stick with 1 version for 3 to 5 years at a time
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    well, according to ADSK it seems that opening up mel scripting, unlocking poly caps and plugin support will most likely hurt their core market because current core users might think they don't need to spend $3675 on core while they could just get by fine with MayaLT for $795

    i can understand that could be a possibility, but i think they are also underestimating how the quantity of MayaLT sales would go up significantly with support for mel, plugins and no poly caps.

    either way, i think the limitations are not as effective to maximize sales revenue compared to a perpetual monthly sub with no feature limitation.
  • EarthQuake
    shaderfx wrote: »
    I agree that is a good list.
    I think we are on our way with Maya LT, but obviously it isn't completely right yet.

    But you are missing something on your list:

    Marmoset in the Maya LT viewport...
    When is that coming? I would love to see something like that!

    Hehe, that's actually a very interesting question. Do you guys have documentation on what it takes to author new content (I would assume we could make some custom nodes or something - but I'm not familiar with it at all) for shaderfx?
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    monster wrote: »
    I would deem this acceptable and am ready to purchase about 6 copies over the next few months. If that is the case, and if it loads python modules. Our small art team will grow a little more from now until the end of the year.

    So Python itself is totally sandboxed and we do not allow the user to load or call into Python modules from within Maya LT. That also means that you are unable to load up .py plugin modules as well unfortunately.
    MM wrote: »
    i am wondering, if a team of 5 devs get 4 MayaLT seats for regular devs and 1 Maya core seat for the inhouse tech/tools guy then will it be possible to implement the tools created in Maya core into those MayaLT seats ?

    So this is actually an interesting question and something I talked with some of our higher ups at Unite about. Currently Maya and Maya LT are different API's so for example you couldn't take the FBX plugin from Maya LT and use it in Maya or use Maya's Turtle plugin inside of LT. That said I do see the flaw there if you want to buy a full seat for a tools developer or plugin developer to write say your engine exporter or some other tools for the team. What are your thoughts on this? Should there be a way for that one seat to create tools for the LT seats? This still wouldn't work for Python plugins though due to the way LT is setup.
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    Hehe, that's actually a very interesting question. Do you guys have documentation on what it takes to author new content (I would assume we could make some custom nodes or something - but I'm not familiar with it at all) for shaderfx?

    Would you mind emailing me so we can explore this idea?
    I think we could do some really cool stuff there.

    [email protected]
  • Ged
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    Ged interpolator
    digital download in uk costs £700 plus £100 tax. So thats £308 more than I originally expected. :(

    Is there a monthly cloud membership so that I can pay in affordable installments? Otherwise its going to be a very long time before I can buy maya lt.
  • monster
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    monster Polycount Sponsor
    ...
    So Python itself is totally sandboxed and we do not allow the user to load or call into Python modules from within Maya LT. That also means that you are unable to load up .py plugin modules as well unfortunately.
    ...

    For a saving of (6 * $3500) - (6 * $800) = $16,200 I can probably switch back to MEL. Our "indie" tools are mostly for content delivery. I guess I'll just have to see what works and what doesn't with a demo of LT.
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    Ged wrote: »
    digital download in uk costs £700 plus £100 tax. So thats £308 more than I originally expected. :(

    Is there a monthly cloud membership so that I can pay in affordable installments? Otherwise its going to be a very long time before I can buy maya lt.

    I believe the monthly cost in the UK is £45, quarterly is £110 and yearly is £350. I'm not 100% certain so you may want to check with a reseller (and those prices are basic support btw).
    monster wrote: »
    For a saving of (6 * $3500) - (6 * $800) = $16,200 I can probably switch back to MEL. Our "indie" tools are mostly for content delivery. I guess I'll just have to see what works and what doesn't with a demo of LT.

    Give it a shot with the demo and if you run into any issues or have any questions about stuff you can email me directly. My Autodesk email is in the first post I made on the thread so ping me any time.
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    does the basic support include any future extensions of MayaLT 2014 or do you need to get subscriptions for extensions?
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    If you're buying perpetual license then you need subscription for the extensions but if you're using the Monthly, Quarterly or Yearly payment methods then you get access to the extension and latest versions of Maya LT I believe. I'll double check and get some hard info to bring back here.
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    $50 monthly sub for LT with all these limitations seems too high!

    here is a comparison with Adobe

    Photoshop CS6 full = ~$1000
    Creative Cloud single app monthly = $20

    2% of full price
    ______________________

    MayaLT full (with subscription) = $915
    monthly = $50

    5% of full price
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 7
    To keep it in perspective, it wasnt that long ago that Luxology was offering a full license for Modo 601 for $800ish. Mix that with substance designer's modo price ($395) and you have a fully featured powerful app for indie work. Sure even with the full 701 price of $1500, it might end up being a better investment for the indie than Maya lt.

    I'm pretty much ready to throw my money at Autodesk for maya lt, as long as it doesnt feel crippled or intentionally maimed to prevent competition with its own products. Otherwise, Modo/Blender are probably the most ideal indie packages.
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    Dataday have you given the trial a whirl? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts playing with the trial version. As I've said before we're very open to feedback and improving LT as much as we can.
  • giakaama
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    giakaama polycounter lvl 8
    Smcclelland, do you know when we will have MayaLT in a Europe Store in Euro currency ?

    Thank you !
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    the information I have, MayaLT is:

    For Basic Support

    £45 / 50 Euro - monthly
    £110 / 130 Euro - quarterly
    £350 / 415 Euro - annually

    For Advanced Support

    £65 / 70 Euro - monthly
    £165 / 190 Euro - quarterly
    £490 / 580 Euro - annually
  • Ged
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    Ged interpolator
    ...and we have to contact resellers to organise this annual/quarterly/monthly payment? not autodesk or the autodesk website?
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    I believe that only perpetual is available right now but the annual/monthly/quarterly should be coming soon.
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