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Maya LT

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  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 7
    Bellsey wrote: »
    I think there's a lot of crossed wires here and people are seemingly desperate for Autodesk to literally follow Adobe's model, even though Autodesk haven't even said that. :)

    On the contrary, thats the last I think most users want (including myself). Again there's a trust issue at play, and the track record hasnt been in AD's favor. It was already stated that there will not be an "upgrade" for the LT line. Its also been stated that their goal is to move away from upgrades and go towards rentals and subscriptions (obviously because more revenue can be had this way).

    This leaves a pretty obvious picture in the direction of future AD products including Maya LT. If you delayed on upgrading for a few years, regardless you would have to pay the full amount to get the latest version of the software. This isnt something I desperately want to happen, the opposite in fact. Given whats been said over the past two weeks though... it doesnt paint the image you are suggesting.

    If they want more people on rentals and subscriptions, how do you think that will play out in the long run? Corporate will do what benefits them the most.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    The information I've posted is the current upgrade policy. It would seem to me, that based on the information that was announced from the investors day, that Autodesk will be ending their upgrade program. As of Feb 1st 2015 (still over a year away), users will be unable to upgrade old versions in the way I described.
  • oglu
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    oglu ngon master
    now its looking more interesting...

    new polylimit 65k
    and no polylimit with the send to Unity feature...
    Hi all,
    I am super excited about the reception of Maya LT thus far, its off to a great start and indie developers are putting it through its paces.

    For those of you that are not familiar with Maya LT, its a version of Maya aimed at indie game development at a price that is affordable for all. For $50 a month, you get full maya modeling, animation tools, shader FX, texture baking and much more. Its just the beginning and we have a lot in the works that will continue to add value games workflows.

    Great updates are coming for Maya LT in the next couple of weeks that I wanted to share. First, we increased the FBX poly limit to a per object of 65k polygons on export, allowing you to create advanced characters or assembling large worlds. Additionally, we added a special workflow with Unity that allows you to "Send to" Unity directly. This allows you to access your project files from Maya LT and export UNLIMITED polycounts to Unity projects. Thats right, there are no limits what you can do with LT and Unity.

    For more info, follow me on twitter

    Frank DeLise
    Director Games Solutions
  • Lazerus Reborn
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    Lazerus Reborn polycounter lvl 8
    This allows you to access your project files from Maya LT and export UNLIMITED polycounts to Unity projects.

    I do not know the capability of unity, but that still screws anyone trying to highpoly bake right? That was the concern/crippling point that everyone was huffing & puffing about with the poly limits.

    I mean what if you use a similar tool to turbosmooth? Would it refuse to smooth the model? How would it act when you reach the 65k limit?

    I can't see it acting nice to say the least.
  • oglu
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    oglu ngon master
    think that more about bringing in whole levels or multipart objects and not one single object with 1mio poly...
    a car for example hast hundreds of parts and all togehter about 250k poly... you could now send a car over in one go...
  • pior
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    pior high dynamic range
    I guess they really, genuinely believe that the whole polygon limit thing was a good idea to begin with ...
    So basically ... they still don't understand that even indie devs might need to bake models in Xnormal. Oh well.

    PR talk is such a strange thing. "Yay, we heard your feedback ! Except, we really didn't !"
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    Lazerus,

    I don't understand your point.

    Inside the Maya LT scene there is no polycount limit at all.

    So if you want to have a 3 million polycount model inside LT, that is not a problem. You can "Turbosmooth" it as much as you want.

    It is only when you export to FBX that there is a 65k limit.

    So if you want to take your base mesh to Mudbox, as long as it is below 65k then you can and do your detail painting and baking there.

    If you want to bake in Maya LT, then you can use as large a high poly mesh as you want. No restrictions.

    The only thing you cannot do is export the high poly from LT. But you should not need to do that, because the game won't use the high poly and in something like Mudbox you use the lower poly.

    As for obj support. I don't know if that is coming, but I do know that FBX is far more developed so it would probably be beneficial for Zbrush to support FBX as an import format since many game engines tend to support FBX these days.
  • pior
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    pior high dynamic range
    If you want to bake in Maya LT, then you can use as large a high poly mesh as you want. No restrictions.

    In theory, that sounds great (and I suppose that this is something that product managers at Autodesk genuinely believe). However, in practice Xnormal exists for a reason, and it is so widespread in both the indie and non-indie spaces that I think it is a bit silly of Autodesk to ignore its existence and penetration (and therefore, the need to be able to export to OBJ without limits)

    Now to be fair, Maya can actually be pretty speedy when it comes to baking a simple normal map. But for anything else, Xnormal runs in circles around it performance wise. Adding to that that converting a SmoothPreview model to raw geo for baking can cause huge issues and slowdown, it creates a scenario where it is a huge relief for the artist to be able to be outside of Maya for anything baking related.

    I also understand that AD wants to push for FBX instead of OBJ. But again, I would bet that a survey within game professionals would give OBJ as a clear winner when it comes to the question of what is the most used format for raw geo export.

    I am not saying that FBX is bad ; just that its history has been pretty bumpy, and it affects its perception as a reliable format. I have memories of older FBX plugins just failing to import or export for no apparent reason, whereas OBJ has always been rock solid.
  • ysalex
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    ysalex interpolator
    shaderfx wrote: »

    The only thing you cannot do is export the high poly from LT. But you should not need to do that, because the game won't use the high poly and in something like Mudbox you use the lower poly.

    What they are saying, and I think they're saying it very clearly so I'm not sure the confusion here, is that if they create a subdivision mesh, say a hard surface mesh for a gun, they will not be able to bake in a program outside of Maya.

    After they model the weapon, they will have to apply several smooths to it, to get the gun smooth enough for a bake. But at a very low, low number of polygons for this high-poly mesh, they are no longer allowed to export - so they will not be able to bake it in another program, say Xnormals.

    This is a huge restriction for a lot of people, because exporting the smoothed high version to bake is a very necessary step in almost every pipeline. Without being able to get the high-poly mesh out of Maya, they can't do anything with it.

    I don't even do that much hard surface in Maya and this would even hinder me when I go to make basic stuff for characters.

    Number wise - if I want to create a high poly object for baking in xnormal (a very huge part of my workflow), I am limited to 937 quad polygons in Maya. With three subdivions, I hit the 60K limit. So if you're creating a 10K quad mesh for a gun, you're limited to a single subdiv/smooth, before you run up against the limit, which is not nearly, nearly, nearly enough for baking out good low res maps.

    I don't see how this functionality isn't seen as super simple stuff.
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    pior wrote: »
    I guess they really, genuinely believe that the whole polygon limit thing was a good idea to begin with ...

    I think it is more one of the strategies to not cannibalize regular Maya.
    We want to offer Indie devs some of the great tools inside Maya at an affordable price, but we don't want to make it unfair for the regular Maya user.

    It makes no sense for LT to take away Maya customers.
    What we want is for LT to find a home in Indie devs that would not otherwise use regular Maya.

    There is no evil plot behind it. And as you can see we are already tweaking what LT offers to try and align it better.
  • pior
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    pior high dynamic range
    Oh I totally understand that there is no bad intention behind these limitations. But as I mentioned it earlier in the thread, I just don't see any reason why LT should have any less features than regular Maya to begin with.

    The distinction could very well be made at the license level - a studio could qualifiy as "LT eligible" if its workforce is under a certain number of seats, for instance. Then this studio would simply get "LT pricing", for a full, unrestricted Maya experience.

    But back on the subject of which features to restrict : I personally think that preventing full resolution export is a very unwise idea. Even individual freelancers working in, say, movie previz often need to quickly export dense subdivided meshes for a quick Keyshot render, for instance.
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    ysalex wrote: »
    Number wise - if I want to create a high poly object for baking in xnormal (a very huge part of my workflow), I am limited to 937 quad polygons in Maya. With three subdivions, I hit the 60K limit. So if you're creating a 10K quad mesh for a gun, you're limited to a single subdiv/smooth, before you run up against the limit, which is not nearly, nearly, nearly enough for baking out good low res maps.

    Good point yes.

    I think at the moment the xnormal workflow you describe is not supported for LT. You'd have to use the baking tools inside Maya.

    I think it would be worth describing why the baking tools in LT are not up to the job. Is it just performance in xNormal? Or are there other baking problems in Maya's baking tools too?
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    pior wrote: »
    The distinction could very well be made at the license level

    I was of this opinion too, but I don't think Autodesk could really make that work. You cannot go police 1000's of small users and see if they may have broken the license agreement. Some may not even fully understand or read the license agreement.

    That was my understanding of the situation.
  • CheeseOnToast
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    CheeseOnToast polycounter lvl 15
    I think it would be worth describing why the baking tools in LT are not up to the job. Is it just performance in xNormal? Or are there other baking problems in Maya's baking tools too?

    Caveat: I'm still on Maya 2012, so I'm just assuming that the baking process is pretty much unchanged in later versions.

    Baking normal maps in Maya is pretty decent. However, baking AO is a massive pain. It uses a different renderer (Mental Ray), takes forever, often crashes and has some weird unintuitive problems where you need to hide the low poly model for it not to occlude itself.

    It's also missing the vast array of other baking options that Xnormal has, including the ability to bake vertex colour to texture straight from a polypainted Zbrush model and baking curvature maps (both very useful).

    Unifying the baking process to use tha same renderer for everything would be a good start. Get a large sample of workflows from artists in the industry and see what they think is missing or could be improved.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    If you want to bake stuff like normal maps, vertex maps, etc, etc, then you're better off using Turtle. It's far better (imo) and easier then using Mental Ray.
    Turtle is included in MayaLT and now also Maya, not just Suites only like it was.

    Xnormal is good (no denying that), but in my experience there are alot of Maya based studios also using Turtle, and have done for years.

    As for formats, again OBJ is good and tried and tested. But, despite this, it's old and still kinda limiting. FBX is a way better and more flexible option (and there's an SDK for it as well).
    I think for some people, FBX might still has this stigma attached to it. They tried it in previous years, encountered problems and then never went back to it. I can sympathise and relate to this, based on my own production experience. However the FBX today is a different beast to what it was. I've seen many studios now go back to it, and adopt it as their exporting format and for Unreal/Unity, it's become the best way to get data into their tech.
  • Ged
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    Ged interpolator
    I think one of the main issues with using mayas normal map baking is that maya doesnt seem to handle high poly meshes very well (eg 4 million poly zbrush model). Maya seems to really struggle or crash with these meshes, where xnormal just does the job, am I wrong?
  • WarrenM
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    WarrenM Polycount Sponsor
    OBJ has the main limiting factor of only supporting a single UV set. Blech.
  • Rilokin
    Hi,
    I am just a hobbiest, and have no plans for commercial use atm. I am very interested in Maya LT. But the product right now is not quite where it needs to be. Now upping fbx polygon export to a 65k limit is a welcome start.

    My concern is, I do want to buy the product as a single perpetual license, and no subscriptions. If I buy it now, am I locked out of the coming changes unless I pay more money? I'm sorry, not being rude, but that's the way I understand the pricing model at AD. Buy your product, and if you don't subscribe you don't get any updates.

    I'm not prepared as a hobbiest to pay money for a product that doesn't seem to have hit it's full stride yet, to just have to pay more money to get it up to speed.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    Ged wrote: »
    I think one of the main issues with using mayas normal map baking is that maya doesnt seem to handle high poly meshes very well (eg 4 million poly zbrush model). Maya seems to really struggle or crash with these meshes, where xnormal just does the job, am I wrong?

    Many years back, I might have agreed with you, but not now. In last several versions of Maya, I've had no problems in importing high poly meshes. I was testing one only last week with Maya and MayaLT. Character assets, multiple objects -12m polys no problem. And I believe that asset originally came from ZBrush.

    As for baking though, as I said, you can use Maya's/Mental Ray, but I'd use Turtle. I find it cleaner and more efficent.
  • Michael Knubben
    The idea of 'not cannibalizing regular Maya sales' is a silly one'. Set qualifications a studio has to meet (income/size/idontknow), and limit the sale of MayaLT to them.
    'Oh but what if a larger studio cheats and gives us the wrong information?!!11' Uh... then they don't have a legitimate license. You know, like those people I hear about who use pirated software?

    Offer studios the option of buying your software at rates that are affordable for them, or live with the fact that they'll consider other software.

    Speaking of the no-script thing (which uh.. wtf? if any software relies on scripts it's Maya), together with the export limits, I suppose that completely kills the GoZ workflow?
  • pior
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    pior high dynamic range
    Many years back, I might have agreed with you, but not now. In last several versions of Maya, I've had no problems in importing high poly meshes. I was testing one only last week with Maya and MayaLT. Character assets, multiple objects -12m polys no problem. And I believe that asset originally came from ZBrush.

    As for baking though, as I said, you can use Maya's/Mental Ray, but I'd use Turtle. I find it cleaner and more efficent.

    I think it is great that you took the time to make such a test, but unfortunately it doesn't really paint the whole picture of the highpoly to lowpoly asset creation process, which is what is being discussed here. Being able to import a dense mesh from Zbrush is great (and actually, quite necessary) but then there are many other steps involved in the process.

    For instance, let's say that this dense mesh imported just fine. Which retopology tools were then used in order to create the final ingame mesh ? Were the Maya Live tools speedy enough to even allow the user to create the lowpoly mesh while conforming to the high ? If not, then how would such a highres mesh be then exported to Topogun for accurate, high performance retopology ? In order to export it under the 65k limit, the user would certainly have to rely on some polygon reduction tools. Did Maya behave well when processing that high resolution mesh for reduction ?
    OBJ has the main limiting factor of only supporting a single UV set. Blech.

    This is not relevant to the problem at hand. In the context of this discussion, OBJ is being used as a rock solid way to export high density polygonal data, eventually along with simple material properties (for per-chunk region mask baking) and vertex color information (to bake diffuse to texture). The lack of secondary UV channel support is not a problem in that pipeline.

    Now of course FBX has these features and more. But I have to admit that I do have a bit of an icky feeling when I have to use that format, based on bad experiences in the past. Sure enough, these problems might be solved by now but once you lose the trust of the user it is hard to gain it back - whereas OBJ never ever failed me.

    Please note that I am not trying to be excessively defensive here, and my intention is not to ignore or refute arguments just for the sake of doing so. I just want to help, bringing up the issues that I see with the current direction of Maya LT, from the perspective of 8 years working at game studios, a good chunk of which spent with Maya as a primary 3D tool.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    pior wrote: »
    I think it is great that you took the time to make such a test, but unfortunately it doesn't really paint the whole picture of the highpoly to lowpoly asset creation process, which is what is being discussed here. Being able to import a dense mesh from Zbrush is great (and actually, quite necessary) but then there are many other steps involved in the process.

    For instance, let's say that this dense mesh imported just fine. Which retopology tools were then used in order to create the final ingame mesh ? Were the Maya Live tools speedy enough to even allow the user to create the lowpoly mesh while conforming to the high ? If not, then how would such a highres mesh be then exported to Topogun for accurate, high performance retopology ? In order to export it under the 65k limit, the user would certainly have to rely on some polygon reduction tools. Did Maya behave well when processing that high resolution mesh for reduction ?

    I didn't have to do a specific test because I knew it worked. But I have also been doing stuff with Maya and Maya LT recently.

    The modelling tools in MayaLT have full parity with those in the full Maya, and that includes all the improvements made with new modelling toolkit (built upon NEX). Personally I've never had any problems with Maya's modelling (it always has been very good), but the new improvements have been well received and there's hopefully more to come. There are plenty of videos showing the new tools, including the retopo tools.

    Also, included in these improvements, is poly reduction and again, this is also in LT. For some time Maya's poly reduction wasn't that great, so rather then reinventing the wheel and in the spirit of sharing best practices, we've taken reduction algorithm (and related featureset) from Softimage and added it to Maya. This has improved things greatly, because (imo) the poly reduction feature in Softimage was awesome and the best of all the 3.
    The performance is better, and I can dynamically reduce a mesh even if it's skinned to a rig and being animated.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    as a bump to this tread, the Service Pack and Extension Release for MayaLT 2014 is now the live and can be downloaded.

    Please note that it's the Extension release that includes the new 65K export limit and the built in Send to Unity option.

    Only customers with active Subscription will be entitled to the Extension for Maya LT 2014. Rental plan customers of Maya LT will have access to extension releases for the duration of their rental plan.
  • Rilokin
    Bellsey wrote: »
    Only customers with active Subscription will be entitled to the Extension for Maya LT 2014. Rental plan customers of Maya LT will have access to extension releases for the duration of their rental plan.

    While the changes are welcome, only allowing customers with subs to take advantage of the changes, on a piece of software that is so new, and still finding its footing is terrible, just terrible. Having to pay more for patches for basic functionality is terrible.

    If I misunderstand AD's policy feel free to enlighten me. I'm not touching the software until AD gets it into a stable state...... if then.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    One of the benefits of being on Subscription, is that those customers can get these extensions. These aren't just patches and bug fixes, but sometimes new features and substantial enhancements to existing features.
    The policy is consistent with other Autodesk offerings. And many of the modelling improvements in this Maya LT Extension, are also in the recent Maya 2014 Extension.

    For normal bug fixes, Autodesk can (and will) often release hotfixes and service packs. These are freely available to anyone, so that if someone isn't on subscription, they can still get those important fixes.
  • Rilokin
    So say I went and bought Maya LT today. Do I get the version with the new polygon limit, or is a sub STILL required to get that?
  • pior
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    pior high dynamic range
    Speaking of pricing - what will be the price of an upgrade from one standalone release of MayaLT to the next (without subscription) ? It seems like an update will be rolling out quickly...

    Also, and again not being gratuitously aggressive here : I do hope that AD will stick to its word regarding bug fixes and service packs this time. I have been paying for the (needlessly expensive) Mudbox upgrades multiple times already, and while currently on 2012 + service pack 3 I am still getting fatal crashes regularly - to a point that I have to actively avoid the circumstances that I know are causing said crashes.

    In other words, I hope AD will maintain support on the different point releases of a product like MayaLT better than they did for Max and Mudbox, which ended up leaving the user quickly feeling abandoned despite paying full cash for the promised support in the first place.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    Rilokin wrote: »
    So say I went and bought Maya LT today. Do I get the version with the new polygon limit, or is a sub STILL required to get that?

    It would be the same as other software with these Extension releases, you would need to purchase Subscription in order to get these exclusive features.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    pior wrote: »
    Speaking of pricing - what will be the price of an upgrade from one standalone release of MayaLT to the next (without subscription) ? It seems like an update will be rolling out quickly...

    Also, and again not being gratuitously aggressive here : I do hope that AD will stick to its word regarding bug fixes and service packs this time. I have been paying for the (needlessly expensive) Mudbox upgrades multiple times already, and while currently on 2012 + service pack 3 I am still getting fatal crashes regularly - to a point that I have to actively avoid the circumstances that I know are causing said crashes.

    In other words, I hope AD will maintain support on the different point releases of a product like MayaLT better than they did for Max and Mudbox, which ended up leaving the user quickly feeling abandoned despite paying full cash for the promised support in the first place.

    I don't have any information at this time regarding upgrades for MayaLT.

    Regarding big fixes and service packs, I'm not in a position to absolutely confirm anything around release schedules, and I can't speak for the product development guys. But, if we feel that hotfixes/service packs are warranted and the teams can deliver them, then I believe they do try their upmost to do so. And, looking at the 2014 releases, we have delivered multiple service packs for some packages.

    But with paying for upgrades, this is where the debate is regards that versus subscription. You feel that you've needlessly paid for expensive upgrades, but just from the financial view, it probably would of been cheaper to have been on subscription. You would of got releases beyond 2012 (and any fixes in them), and any respective Extension releases, and you would of retained previous usage rights, which is a benefit of subscription.
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 7
    Bellsey wrote: »
    It would be the same as other software with these Extension releases, you would need to purchase Subscription in order to get these exclusive features.

    Its no surprise then that when googling "bait and switch" you start finding Autodesk in the search results.

    Its like saying "we heard your complaints and to reward you for your feedback, which we requested, we wont give you these fixes unless you hop on the plan that gives us far more leverage over your wallet". It's disgusting.
  • pior
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    pior high dynamic range
    Well of course subscriptions have their advantages ... but only if there is a guarantee that the following release will be totally bug free, backwards compatible, and totally transparent to the user.

    However this it is almost never the case, to a point where it is now widely accepted that switching to a newer version of an Autodesk product at release should be avoided. Average recommended time is one year.

    To go back to my specific, personal experience with Mudbox : I purchased 2009 as a standalone license and later upgraded two times (or was it three ? ) for the promised upgrades and added features. The reason why I like purchasing a point release and maybe some upgrades as opposed to paying for a subscription is simply budget control : I'd rather pay once and for all for a solid product and never have to think about further costs added down the line, rather than knowing that I will have to pay repeatedly, and potentially suffer from the stress of re-install, new bugs, and compatibility issues.

    But with the high price of upgrades, I personally feel "burnt" by the Autodesk pricing policies ; that does not make me want to take yet another leap of faith and switch to subscription at all.

    Now on the subject of fixes : sure, subscriptions roll out potential fixes, but as a point release user I do expect the version I paid for to be maintained well too. However after years of Mudbox experience and multiple bug reports on my end (even sending narrated videos to the team outlining some issues ...), expensive updates, and 4 subsequent releases of the program, I am still running into the same old fatal bugs. This is a problem that the availability of a subscription program does not fix. All I want is some QA testing, and engineers maintaining the code of a program that I paid full price for about two years ago.

    Now of course this is not directly related with Maya LT and its future developments. However I do think that this kind of user stories might give you a bit of perspective, and explain why many of us can be very critical about the practices of Autodesk regarding pricing, dev cycles, and communication.

    There is a lot of trust to be gained back, and companies like Pixologic understand it very well.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    pior wrote: »
    Well of course subscriptions have their advantages ... but only if there is a guarantee that the following release will be totally bug free, backwards compatible, and totally transparent to the user.

    Those are very high expectations. So high, that personally I think they would be hard for any software vendor to deliver. For example, the idea of being totally bug free. Imo, there's not such thing as bug free but if you can name a software (or game for that matter) on the market that is 100% completely bug free, then I'd sit corrected.
    pior wrote: »
    However this it is almost never the case, to a point where it is now widely accepted that switching to a newer version of an Autodesk product at release should be avoided. Average recommended time is one year.

    I'm sorry but I would have to contest that. The notion that its somehow widely accepted that people don't move to a latest version and there's some kind or standard recommendation is (imo) misinformed. There many factors why people don't always moved to the latest version, very often it can be project related, or perhaps there is some dependancy on technology or tools.
    In recent years, I've seen customers move to the latest version alot quicker and some situations people run the current and previous version side by side.
    pior wrote: »
    Now on the subject of fixes : sure, subscriptions roll out potential fixes, but as a point release user I do expect the version I paid for to be maintained well too. However after years of Mudbox experience and multiple bug reports on my end (even sending narrated videos to the team outlining some issues ...), expensive updates, and 4 subsequent releases of the program, I am still running into the same old fatal bugs. This is a problem that the availability of a subscription program does not fix. All I want is some QA testing, and engineers maintaining the code of a program that I paid full price for about two years ago.

    Now of course this is not directly related with Maya LT and its future developments. However I do think that this kind of user stories might give you a bit of perspective, and explain why many of us can be very critical about the practices of Autodesk regarding pricing, dev cycles, and communication.

    I'm sorry I can't really offer you any information regarding long running bugs, only that sometimes certain issues are harder to fix than others. Unfortunately some issues could be so deeply embedded and could take multiple versions to fix, or resolve. Other times, it might take a new feature to maybe close off legacy issues. There are many factors to consider.

    Point of note though, fixes don't always just go to Subscription only, that's why there are hotfixes and service packs. Maya 2014 had an extension release and we just released an update to that extension. At the same time, there was also a third service pack released publicly this week for Maya 2014. as there were bug fixes that we could push out.
  • Rilokin
    Ok so today, I contacted a CSR at AD to try to get some answers on the extensions for maya lt. I was told...

    Extensions are only available to people with subscriptions!
    If you cancel your subscription, you lose access to the extensions!

    That is nothing short of insane. There is no way I will ever touch a product with fees like that.

    If I misunderstand what a subscription is, someone please explain it to me.

    Does it allow you to upgrade for free to the next years version? Sort of like adobe? If so that might change my mind. But if you are subscribing to just this years version, and it's upgrades, that's terrible.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    The way Subscription works, for perpetual licenses you buy a license then you can pay the fee for Subscription. The Subscription is annual and as long as you continue to pay the annual fee and remain on Subscription, you will always receive the latest version of your software, whenever it is released.

    If you decide to not renew your subscription, then you remain at the latest version you have paid for. For example, if you were using 2013 version of your software and were on Subscription, you would of automatically received 2014. If you had stopped your Subs, before the 2014 release, then you would of remained on the 2013 version and not received 2014.

    Of course, you might change your mind and decide that you do want the latest version, but if not on Subscription, you would have to pay an upgrade fee. This is currently 70% of the price for an entirely new license. So just by doing some simple math, Subscription is actually the best and most cost-effective way of always keeping your Autodesk software up to date.

    There are other benefits and services with Subscription, so of course if you aren't on and paying for Subscription, then you stop having access to those things. And yes that would include the Extension releases, because these are only available to customers who are on an active Subscription.

    For the Rental plans it's not quite the same. Subscription isn't available on the rental plans, however because you're on rental and paying in a different way, you still receive some of the benefits, including technical support and software updates. (rental customers of Maya LT 2014, will receive the Maya LT 2014 Extension release.
  • Rilokin
    Ok, so I am understanding you to say, if I buy Maya LT for 795, then subscribe for 120 dollars, next year, or whenever the next years version is released, as long as I am subscribed. I get next years version for free (other than the subscription cost). And in the following years I get to keep getting new versions for free (other than the subscription cost). If this is the case I guess it's not so bad.

    But I want to clarify one other thing, the csr I talked to today said that I would lose access to extensions if I cancel my subscription. Does this mean I will lose access to all extensions, meaning even the past ones that have already been downloaded and installed, or just access to new ones that come out.
  • Visum
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    Visum polycounter lvl 5
    Bellsey wrote: »
    Those are very high expectations. So high, that personally I think they would be hard for any software vendor to deliver. For example, the idea of being totally bug free. Imo, there's not such thing as bug free but if you can name a software (or game for that matter) on the market that is 100% completely bug free, then I'd sit corrected.

    Nice proof how AD treats customers.
    We know it's bugged but we don't give a crap because bug free software idea is so high you were probably on drugs when thought of it.

    Try Vray and see what happens when you have a critical bug yet took how many months to fix nex issues in 2014? People couldn't even use the new modelling toolkit because it slowed system to a crawl.
    You charged them for it and they were stuck for months and here you come pretty much telling us that we shouldn't complain because bugs are absolutely normal and our expectations are unreal.

    ...
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    Visum wrote: »
    Nice proof how AD treats customers.
    We know it's bugged but we don't give a crap because bug free software idea is so high you were probably on drugs when thought of it.

    Try Vray and see what happens when you have a critical bug yet took how many months to fix nex issues in 2014? People couldn't even use the new modelling toolkit because it slowed system to a crawl.
    You charged them for it and they were stuck for months and here you come pretty much telling us that we shouldn't complain because bugs are absolutely normal and our expectations are unreal.

    ...

    No, you have misunderstood what I am saying.

    We do not have a carefree and 'like it or lump it' attitude. I can't speak for every company out there, but I'm sure that any software provider/developer (including Autodesk) does not intend on shipping their product(s) with bugs. We try and resolve and fix as many bugs as possible to ensure our software is stable and reliable. Like our customers, it's always a high priority.

    Of course, I agree, the aim should be to fix All bugs and make the software 100% bug free, however despite the best of efforts, this isn't always possible. You could fix all bugs on one day and by the next, new ones have appeared.
    There are many factors and variables though, much of our software has some complex technology inside it, there's also 3rd Party in there as well, such as for example Mental Ray. We need our technology partners to try and resolves their bugs, as much as we need to try fix our own. Also, many people are running on different specs of hardware, which can also make a difference.

    I'm not saying customers should not complain either, in fact quite the opposite. I'm happy for people to complain, and anyone is within their right to vent, but at the same time I'd also want people to actually log the bugs with us. The more data we have from logged bugs, or the crash error reports, the better.
  • Ged
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    Ged interpolator
    Bellsey wrote: »
    We try and resolve and fix as many bugs as possible to ensure our software is stable and reliable.,

    So if someone buys maya LT and doesnt have a subscription do they still get the bug fixes? I can understand not get extensions to tools and new features but surely they are entitled to getting the features they originally paid to work properly.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    Ged wrote: »
    So if someone buys maya LT and doesnt have a subscription do they still get the bug fixes? I can understand not get extensions to tools and new features but surely they are entitled to getting the features they originally paid to work properly.

    Absolutely. If we are able to, we will release hotfixes and service packs that are freely available to all customers, regardless of whether they're on Subscription or not. Sometimes they can be incremental, others they're entirely fresh installs.

    Everyone has been looking at the Maya LT extension release, but overlooked the fact that at the same time, there was a free service pack released to all customers, as well.
    It can be downloaded from here: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/dl/item?siteID=123112&id=22446528&linkID=9242259

    The same happened with the recent Extension releases for Maya, Max and Mudbox. As they were released, at the same time, free service packs were also released.
  • Ged
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    Ged interpolator
    Ok thats cool. So do we need to download both the service pack and the extension if we are running a rental maya LT?
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    If you're renting, download the extension release.
  • pior
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    pior high dynamic range
    It's quite nice to be able to have an open conversation on these subjects here with official AD guys, for sure :)

    I know I'll certainly give LT a try in the future for sure. Still not interested in actually getting a license for it, but I most definitely want to give the modeling tools a try.

    The discussion about point releases and service packs is interesting too. Deep down I cannot help but feel that the annual release cycle is a mistake and adds unnecessary pressure on the developers, but I suppose it's not going to change anytime soon now, especially since it is a good tool for marketing in the short term. (kind of like the Guitar Hero and Madden games, in a way hehe)
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    pior wrote: »
    The discussion about point releases and service packs is interesting too. Deep down I cannot help but feel that the annual release cycle is a mistake and adds unnecessary pressure on the developers,

    It depends on the feature.
    Sometimes having to wait 6 months to a year until customers finally get your stuff in their hands kind of sucks as a developer.

    By the time it reaches customers you have been coding on different things for months.

    In other cases, you are right. Some times things are not quite 100% of where you want them to be as developer and having to release it is not great.

    We have the ability to release beta's every two weeks on the beta board, which allows us to get stuff to customers frequently, which is nice. But to the public at large we do not have a system in place to opt-in to those bi-monthly builds unless you sign up for the beta.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    Another thing to point out, is that it can take sometime for some features to be implemented, especially to a very complete level. There's often alot of work involved.
    One approach we have taken more recently (certainly with Maya anyway) is to implement a feature for the first time in a good and solid state, then build upon it with improvements as each version goes. This has worked well with things like Viewport 2.0, Node Editor, Scene Assembly, and even the modelling toolkit.
  • Froyok
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    Froyok Polycount Sponsor
    [ame=" 2013 - Your Next Modeling Tool (Autodesk ) - YouTube[/ame]

    Presentation of Maya LT at Unity Unite 2013.
  • ulricr
    aurodesk should prevent people from buying maya lt without subscription. if they do not already. because if you buy it now, you get the old 2014 build and not the extension release with the features you might think you get.
    then again, it would not surprise me if No One has bought LT outright without sub yet and all of these questions about the 799$ product are just theoritical.
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    Frank Delise just tweeted:

    Maya LT scripting on its way.
    Also polycap raised to 65k and unlimited when exporting to Unity.

    I am not sure if OBJ export is coming too.

    https://twitter.com/frankdelise
  • jawwny
    Forgive me if I'm missing something(I am a blender user day to day). But it appears there is no ability to create IK solvers in Maya LT, only forward kinematics a or human ik rig. So if your game design included non human creatures then you would have to animate everything with forward kinematics? This really surprised me and was not obvious in the promotional material/specs. Eventually found it in writing here: http://docs.autodesk.com/mayalt2014/en_us/index.html?url=files/Introduction.htm,topicNumber=d30e2590

    "Basic keyframe animation, with some HumanIK (but no advanced solvers or Muscle).
    Basic rigging is supported (joints, smooth skinning, blendshapes, and basic constraints), but more advanced deformers, constraints, retargeting, and utility nodes are not available. You can import and animate an existing rig with IK handles, however you cannot create a new rig with IK solvers in Maya LT."

    Is it just me missing something? I read this entire thread and it has not been mentioned once???
  • jawwny
    first post bump (took 1 day to approve). can anyone let me know if this is a thing? is there really a market out there for studios that want to animate characters without basic ik?
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    As I said in a post on another forum.....Maya LT is aimed at a specific type of development and developer. We've tried to keep the features clean and simple. Character rigging is a complex task and discipline, even for the most experienced TD's and complex projects. HumanIK (HIK for short)can simplify that process for people who perhaps lack the rigging skills, or maybe don't have the time. HumanIK is actually a very good and powerful IK solver. It's the same technology inside Motionbuilder and also a middleware solution used in the games such as Assassins Greed.

    HIK inside Maya and MayaLT, provides the user with a full body FK and IK rig to animate with. All the controls for pinning/constraining the rig are also there in Maya LT. You can define whatever Biped skeleton rig you like for HIK, as long as it has the minimum amount of joints for the HIK solver to work. This should be listed in the documentation.

    In Motionbuilder, you can actually rig quadrupeds in HIK and I've done this many times, but you know thinking about it now, I don't think I've tried this in Maya or Maya LT, so I'll look into that.
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