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Maya LT

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  • Froyok
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    Froyok Polycount Sponsor
    Yeah, and what if you want to make something not human ? A mechanical arm for example ?

    Sorry but the choice of removing IK is totally stupid. It would have been more logical to remove HIK in my opinion since it's an high-end feature that (probably) gain a lot of time. Therefore indie developers should be less comfortable since they pay less (at least, I see it that way, that would be a good balance between Maya and Maya LT features).


    Autodesk seems to believe that indie developer equals less experienced user, no need to say it's a very biased point of view.
  • jawwny
    Thanks for the response! I am very interested in learning Human IK as a solution for certain game designs, the stuff it does for Assassins creed looks amazing, I would still feel uneasy about treating it as a catch all rigging solution however, although it is an interesting point you bring up about rigging quadrupeds. It looks to me that Maya LT is maybe aimed at very small teams without full time animators or technical artists, maybe generalist programmer/3d artists who only buy mocap animation? Hopefully in the future it could grow to meet the needs of say indie ps4/xbone devs but at the moment it doesn't seem like a viable option compared to full fat Maya/Blender.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    Froyok wrote: »
    Yeah, and what if you want to make something not human ? A mechanical arm for example ?

    Sorry but the choice of removing IK is totally stupid. It would have been more logical to remove HIK in my opinion since it's an high-end feature that (probably) gain a lot of time. Therefore indie developers should be less comfortable since they pay less (at least, I see it that way, that would be a good balance between Maya and Maya LT features).


    Autodesk seems to believe that indie developer equals less experienced user, no need to say it's a very biased point of view.

    HIK isn't just about only creating human characters in only human proportions. You can define the skeleton rig to whatever proportions you like, as long as HIK as the minimum set of joints it needs to solve correctly. Same for things like legs, you can rig something like a minotaur in HIK. I accept that some would say that this is still essentially a biped character, but it's also non-human with possible non-human proportions.

    But at the same time, if you have a development team of only 5-7 guys and none of them has done much character rigging at all. How long would it take someone, from scratch, to rig a character with all the relevant controls, IK/FK switching, etc etc? In this context, HIK is definitely an option worth considering.
    I think alot will depend on the scope of the project and the complexity of the assets people are trying to create. And we're by no means assuming that an indie developer is less experienced. One size doesn't fit all.
  • Rivojen
    There is a "Create IK handle" option inside the Joint tool options. It did however break when they rebuilt the animation system. They are however working on getting it fixed.
    So yeah, it is there just not working atm.

    http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/Maya-LT-General/Joint-tool-Create-Ik-handle-option/td-p/4575175
  • Howl
    Just met with an Autodesk dev at the NYC Games Forum who presented Maya LT and confirmed that full MEL support is included in the latest closed beta build and launching to users soon. I'll follow up once theres a launch date.

    That may just put it on my Christmas list.
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 7
    According to Frank D's twitter page, "Its coming very soon in the next update. Mel scripting support and OBJ export. :)"

    Is this update also only for subscribers or will it be available to all LT buyers regardless of subscription?
  • Rivojen
    Update: Maya LT Extension 2 is out now. With NEW and awesome features, such as: IK handles, polevector constraints, OBJ Export and the new and amazing MEL scripting.
    Sorry for the sarcasm, but these are things that should never have been removed in the first place.
    Good to see they have listened to the users. Now if they could get UV features that are as good as Headus Uv-layout pro.
  • Xoliul
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    Xoliul polycounter lvl 10
    Is it only MEL, no Python ?
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    no plugins ?

    without plugins how will someone use third-party export tools such as collada or even xNormal's SBM format ?
  • radiancef0rge
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    radiancef0rge Polycount Sponsor
    No python just mel
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 7
    Ok so it seems like this is only available to those on a subscription. Kind of a D*** move but hey, whats new. Will this then be part of Maya LT 2015 without the subscription?
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    Anything that is in the subscription usually ends up in the full next release afaik.
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    MM wrote: »
    no plugins ?

    without plugins how will someone use third-party export tools such as collada or even xNormal's SBM format ?


    That is, at least for the moment, not what Maya LT is about.
    If you need a custom pipeline, then you need to get full Maya.

    Other wise, you need to make due with FBX/OBJ exporting.
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 7
    shaderfx wrote: »
    Anything that is in the subscription usually ends up in the full next release afaik.

    I hope so, though for many of us, I have the feeling it will just mean waiting until Maya LT looks more well rounded as part of the default package. If Modo and others start adopting the steam approach, its going to make taking the dive into lt even less likely.
  • dmj
    I see that they have added IK handles, but does anyone know if the extension includes the ability to create spline IK as well?
  • Rivojen
    dmj wrote: »
    I see that they have added IK handles, but does anyone know if the extension includes the ability to create spline IK as well?

    I'm guessing that they have just fixed the IK handle tool that was present and broken from the start.
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    We added single-chain and rotation plane IK back into Maya LT but still no spline IK.
  • iniside
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    iniside polycounter lvl 6
    necromancer resurrection.

    Is python scripting supported ? Or plugins like APEX Cloth.

    There is one cool, plugin written in python, that I can't tell about (for character rigging).
    And APEX Cloth. Well, you know it's cloth. More secondary movement is always good to have.
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    Python is not supported no, just MEL scripting inside of Maya LT.

    As for plugins it's not supported right now but something we've been discussing about supporting key third party plugins that people have mentioned here (xNormal and the like).
  • Schultzie
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    Schultzie polycounter lvl 9
    I know this really isn't Maya LTE related, but I wish Autodesk would come up with a subscription solution for individuals. $200 a month to use Maya is just ridiculous.
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    Out of curiosity what's a fair price in your eyes per month for an individual?
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    if adobe can offer ALL adobe tools for $50/month (with annual commitment) then $200 for any SINGLE tool from autodesk seems over the top unreasonable.

    http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/buying-guide.html

    something like $50/month sounds right specially given how buggy and unstable Autodesk tools are(even with certified hardware/drivers) and how Adobe tools are so much more polished and almost no bugs...
  • Schultzie
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    Schultzie polycounter lvl 9
  • Ged
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    Ged interpolator
    MM wrote: »
    if adobe can offer ALL adobe tools for $50/month (with annual commitment) then $200 for any SINGLE tool from autodesk seems over the top unreasonable.

    Yeah I totally agree.
  • Bellsey
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    Bellsey polycounter lvl 5
    MM wrote: »
    if adobe can offer ALL adobe tools for $50/month (with annual commitment) then $200 for any SINGLE tool from autodesk seems over the top unreasonable.

    Ged wrote: »
    Yeah I totally agree.

    I'm not sure it's quite as clear cut as that. You're comparing two very different types of products with some very different capabilities and technologies.
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    MM wrote: »
    if adobe can offer ALL adobe tools for $50/month (with annual commitment) then $200 for any SINGLE tool from autodesk seems over the top unreasonable.

    Bit of an Apples to Oranges comparison there really. Maya is $3675 straight up where the Master Collection was what about $2599? You're also comparing Adobe's pricing under an annual plan compared to our month-to-month plan. If you sign up on an annual plan then it's $1865 for a year of Maya so ~50% of the price of a new seat straight up.

    http://www.autodesk.com/products/autodesk-maya/buy
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    Bit of an Apples to Oranges comparison there really. Maya is $3675 straight up where the Master Collection was what about $2599? You're also comparing Adobe's pricing under an annual plan compared to our month-to-month plan. If you sign up on an annual plan then it's $1865 for a year of Maya so ~50% of the price of a new seat straight up.

    http://www.autodesk.com/products/autodesk-maya/buy

    your point seems a bit irrelevant to me and here is why:

    $1865 is 50% of a perpetual license. this mean that a sub of 2 year would total to 100% of full price and by 4 years you get back 200% and so on. annual upgrades are not worth $1865 in my opinion.

    on the other hand, adobe charges $50 per month so in 4 years adobe would get back $2400 which is still little short of their full price.

    i am not the best in math but i tried, anyone feel free to correct me if i am wrong.

    i also believe if Autodesk offered a more reasonable monthly sub fee then they would make considerably more money in the long run. right now you might have lets say 1000 people on sub so that totals to $200k per month. if the sub fee was $50 you might get close to 5000 subs and that would be like $250k per month. you would make more $$$ with volume of subs.

    here is an earlier post from me to compare the ratio.
    MM wrote: »
    $50 monthly sub for LT with all these limitations seems too high!

    here is a comparison with Adobe

    Photoshop CS6 full = ~$1000
    Creative Cloud single app monthly = $20

    2% of full price
    ______________________

    MayaLT full (with subscription) = $915
    monthly = $50

    5% of full price
  • DerekLeBrun
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    DerekLeBrun polycounter lvl 11
    Bit of an Apples to Oranges comparison there really. Maya is $3675 straight up where the Master Collection was what about $2599? You're also comparing Adobe's pricing under an annual plan compared to our month-to-month plan. If you sign up on an annual plan then it's $1865 for a year of Maya so ~50% of the price of a new seat straight up.

    http://www.autodesk.com/products/autodesk-maya/buy


    Even factoring in the different prices and annual discounts, you're still comparing 4.2% of the total cost of a single piece of software ($3675), to 1.9% of the total cost of an entire suite of software ($2599). Is Maya really worth double the entire Adobe suite per month?
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    Yes a price difference between Maya/Photoshop is justified because the number of people you can sell Maya to is significantly smaller then the number of people you can sell Photoshop to.

    Regardless of the price you put on Maya.

    It is a more specialized software that requires probably equal if not more programmers to work on.

    So in order to have enough funds to support development and due to smaller user base, the price will be higher.
  • aleksdigital
    Even factoring in the different prices and annual discounts, you're still comparing 4.2% of the total cost of a single piece of software ($3675), to 1.9% of the total cost of an entire suite of software ($2599). Is Maya really worth double the entire Adobe suite per month?

    This must be a rhetorical question. What something is worth is what someone is willing to buy. Maya is so fing good and will get better next year with open subdiv and bifrost. $200 a month isnt much - if you can get decent freelance contracts you should easily cover it
  • WarrenM
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    WarrenM Polycount Sponsor
    $200 a month is insane when you consider that the last 5 years or so of updates for Max have been meager at best. I'd be pissed if I was paying $2,400 a year to use a piece of software that was barely ever updated and never had bugs fixed. Bugs that have existed for YEARS...

    To Adobe's credit, they have released some good stuff in the CC series of apps and I feel I'm getting my subscription value there so far. Bear in mind, this is $50 for ALL of their apps. Autodesk is talking about $200 for a single app. They could at least bundle in Mudbox or something and make it a complete offering for 3D artists.
  • DerekLeBrun
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    DerekLeBrun polycounter lvl 11
    You can make the same money freelance doing 2D art in Photoshop or doing After Effects animation. So double the price is sort of cost prohibitive if you aren't making double the money as a 3D artist.
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 7
    I dont buy the "number of people you can sell Maya to is significantly smaller then the number of people you can sell Photoshop to" argument at all. It's also not just photoshop though. If someone needed just one of those niche apps adobe offers, they have access to it for less. Take aftereffects for example.

    But hey its fine, if you would rather not compete and push the indies towards your competition, then thats your right. I just dont think you guys understand your market and seem to suffer from heightened self worth syndrome.
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 7
    I wanted to ask, would it be possible to export the Shader file (once done creating it) in CGFX, etc, format, to be loaded and used in an different version of Maya, or if Max doesn't get the LT treatment?
  • Fwap
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    Fwap Polycount Sponsor


    OT: Why is it almost a whole $2000 on the price here in Australia? $6055
    Accounting for currency difference as well.

    Also my 2 cents on the subject, Adobe's CC is what $50 a month, so if i work 38 hours a week at a rate of, hypothetically of course, at $25p/h which is reasonable IMO for an "indie developer" i'm only working 2 hours out of my 152 hour week to pay for the tools i use.

    Maya LT on the other hand is a whole $325 (AUS) a month, that's 13 working hours out of 152 just to pay for the tool you use to make money. A whole day and a half! )

    Not everyone is Half Brick or Minecraft level of indie developer that can turn millions P.A

    But hey charge what you will, people will still buy it.
    I'll just sell my kidney and save up to buy it outright.

    P.s Its 5am here and i've been awake since 8am the day before, i will not be held responsible for any mistakes in my mathematics
  • shaderfx
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    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    Ace-Angel wrote: »
    I wanted to ask, would it be possible to export the Shader file (once done creating it) in CGFX, etc, format, to be loaded and used in an different version of Maya

    Yes. But the future goal is to also be able to take your ShaderFX graph to the other applications. Without having to bake it down to a CGFX/HLSL file.
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    Dataday wrote: »
    I dont buy the "number of people you can sell Maya to is significantly smaller then the number of people you can sell Photoshop to" argument at all. It's also not just photoshop though. If someone needed just one of those niche apps adobe offers, they have access to it for less. Take aftereffects for example.

    But hey its fine, if you would rather not compete and push the indies towards your competition, then thats your right. I just dont think you guys understand your market and seem to suffer from heightened self worth syndrome.

    3D is a niche industry not a commodity and Photoshop has a massive presence amongst photographers, designers etc. When was the last time you saw a photographer ask for Maya to do their work?

    Precisely why Maya LT exists for the indie market.
  • DerekLeBrun
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    DerekLeBrun polycounter lvl 11
    3D is a niche industry not a commodity and Photoshop has a massive presence amongst photographers, designers etc. When was the last time you saw a photographer ask for Maya to do their work?

    Precisely why Maya LT exists for the indie market.

    After Effects caters to the similarly niche industry of 2D animation and visual effects. Yet it's price is orders of magnitude less. Furthermore I don't know why you guys keep mentioning Photoshop specifically when the price comparisons have been against the entire adobe creative suite.
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 7
    shaderfx wrote: »
    Yes. But the future goal is to also be able to take your ShaderFX graph to the other applications. Without having to bake it down to a CGFX/HLSL file.
    Oh, so the entire lineup of Autodesk will have this ability? That would be interesting to see, any chances of creating the ability to 'lock' the files as well if that is implemented, or encrypt so people don't meddle with them other then visual usage?
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 7
    3D is a niche industry not a commodity and Photoshop has a massive presence amongst photographers, designers etc. When was the last time you saw a photographer ask for Maya to do their work?

    Precisely why Maya LT exists for the indie market.

    I dont think its as niche as you make it out to be, a lot has changed over the years, but that wasnt what I was referring to specifically. What I didnt buy was how that reasoning is used within the context of a higher charge for a subscription platform that borderline feels anti-consumer.

    Lets face it, how much of the revenue made actually goes right back into R&D? According to a report from 2010, only 10%. What we see as consumers is not research and development, but more acquisition of other software or plug-ins, some go into maya, some dont.

    So if one were to buy into the mentality of it being a niche and thus higher cost, then logic would dictate that the user's actually see the added cost go back into the software they rely on. That doesnt seem to be the case. If only a tiny fraction of the revenue made actually goes back into Maya, then its hard to justify paying MORE instead of LESS.

    Make sense? I am not surprised at how much the CEO of AD makes, nor do I care really, but if one is pushed to pay more for that supposed niche, then make sure the money spent on all those subs and higher price points actually goes back into the software itself... just common sense.
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    3D is a niche industry not a commodity and Photoshop has a massive presence amongst photographers, designers etc. When was the last time you saw a photographer ask for Maya to do their work?

    Precisely why Maya LT exists for the indie market.

    pricing is high because it is a niche industry or the industry is niche because of the ridiculous pricing ? :poly121:
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    In the global economy it's an unbelievably niche market but it's also a very high profile one so there's a misconception around just how many seats there are out there.

    I'd be curious to see the report mentioned there and who authored it. Unfortunately I can't really disclose internal workings, budgets etc but I can say that on the Maya side we have a very heavy R&D presence. Autodesk as a whole is a pretty massive company so you have to look more at the M&E space which is where we play vs the entire organization.

    Obviously you want to drive value into your software as you want to continue to drive adoption and sales but when you serve such a wide array of industries there's always going to be dillution. In software you're never going to be able to please every single person but that doesn't mean you stop striving to at least try and we certainly try to find that balance at the feature level where people in various industries get things they want or need.

    I don't make decisions at the corporate level man, at best I tell the coffee machine what type of coffee I want and what size of mug I've got so it doesn't overflow.
  • ValN84
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    ValN84 polycounter lvl 5
    I'm really glad you guys "patched the holes" in Maya LT, it's much better package right now and actually something that the target customers would enjoy. I wouldn't have ever considering buying Maya LT without Mel, they're my favorite couple :P
  • perfect_paradigm
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    perfect_paradigm polycounter lvl 7
    I would love a Maya targeted at game developers so that we can get excited about every new release, knowing it will be relevant for game development. It's also nice that it was cleaned of the stuff irrelevant to indie game devs.

    However, I'm concerned that Maya LT was "cleaned" a little too much and is now a little incomplete in rigging and animation. And I also really hate to see the wrap deformer and wire tool removed which are very useful for modeling as well.

    To people who know rigging and animation: How important are those removed features, such as animation layers and spline IK, for low-budget game developers?

    Here's the comparison between Maya and Maya LT. Look at the top for the extension features in which they added back a few things.

    http://www.autodesk.com/products/maya-lt/compare

    I appreciate the devs coming to the forums. And I realize they are trying to strike a difficult balance of making Maya LT complete for low-budget indie game devs while still incomplete for the Maya markets(film, high-budget games). But I hope they can do just a little more to make it complete for me, then I'll be very happy to get that annual rental deal soon.
  • MichaelElphick
    I just got my full licence at work today, how do we upgrade to the extension 2? I believe we are on the subscription service (pay monthly?)

    Once mel scripting is possible? does that mean toolboxs such as http://www.froyok.fr/blog/2012-12-frotools-3-2-new-enhanced-ui-and-tools will now be able to be used? aswell as the popular Nightshade UV editor?

    :poly122:
  • radiancef0rge
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    radiancef0rge Polycount Sponsor
    nightshade and frotools work for me right now with extension 2
  • smcclelland
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    smcclelland polycounter lvl 3
    Most community MEL scripts should work but there are likely some that use things we've taken out of Maya LT so if there's something critical you use that isn't working let me know and I can take a look over the script and see if I can convert it to something that works in LT.
  • Froyok
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    Froyok Polycount Sponsor
    I would gladly update my scripts to be compatible with Maya LT. Unfortuntely I don't own it so I can't test it myself. (I also doubt my retopo script can be used since it requires a python plugin)
  • MichaelElphick
    Hi Froyok! I installed Maya LT Extension 2 today, and your current tools version works out of the box! For some reason I had to restart maya for all the icons to show, but I think thats a LT issue!

    Thanks again for the awesome toolbox!
  • Sinking
    Is there no way to get the Extensions without subscription? I think not, however, I am stuck with the student version of LT, which doesn't save settings (reverts to radians, instead of degrees), it doesn't save/export weightmap paints, no scripting aaaand no obj export.

    I use my custom toolbar from older Maya, so I could actually use the Mel Scripts, like FroTools, Roadkill, etc. It's a workaround. Yet, my Maya LT only has FBX export, and I need an OBJ exporter in order to make Roadkill work. I was curious about LT, for ShaderFX, Turtle and texture baking, but I am working with a version of LT that Autodesk should be ashamed to offer to anyone, student or not.

    Why are there so many crucial functions unavailable in the student version? Why would they remove the viewcube, now I finally got used to the thing ^^? What am I supposed to do with it without updates. The student version of LT is halfway useless, so I recommend for students to get full Maya versions and pray Autodesk releases improved versions of Maya LT to their customers who aren't on subscription, in the future.


    Also: Are Autodesk Service Packs incremental, or do I need to download SP1, SP2, SP3, subsequently?
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