The reason PC games don't have a used market is because they are not tied to physical media. Even on a DVD, a PC game is purely software. There is no value in reselling such software because the bonding of software and storage medium is nonexistent. People trade and sell console games because the disc and software are inseparable, while a PC game and it's media are easily separated. A person can buy a copy of "Death Master X", rip a copy, and give that copy to his buddy. There's no reason for a used market for PC games, it's easier to just share your copy with your social network and them with you. Retailers refuse to buy your games because you can copy them. All you need is a handy DRM crack from the p2p networks and you're golden.
Artificial difference, software is just software, PC games used to have drm just as much as consoles had, but the difference was that PC's were not locked like consoles are.
In the end, as have been mentioned in this thread, consoles while chipped will act just the same was as a pc game where the copy-protection have been bypassed, you just burn a disk and give to a friend.
the used games shops stopped taking in pc games when the fact that a tiny key would show how unbound games are to the physical medium, and that the disc lost its worth when that key was used.
Consoles are now coming full circle and are becoming like pc's have been for quite some time, games are software, not a physical medium.
Yeah I don't get this argument either, seems like a certain small group of conspiracy oriented people are making a big deal out of this. And even if this is what MS is doing, the masses have already proved that they don't really care about their privacy too much -- are these same people concerned about their google searches, or having a facebook? Those two companies already have a ton of information on you, not to mention a history of shady privacy oriented choices.
I don't understand throwing around the term "conspiracy" on this issue. There's a camera and a microphone monitoring and recording your actions. That's not something being imagined, that's a fact. In fact, it's being touted as a feature that you should want.
I don't understand throwing around the term "conspiracy" on this issue. There's a camera and a microphone monitoring and recording your actions. That's not something being imagined, that's a fact. In fact, it's being touted as a feature that you should want.
people have to call reality a 'conspiracy' because they cannot accept reality. reality is painful. it strips you of your beliefs and shows you how feeble you are. its much nicer to pretend and believe in a story. stories make people happy and safe. the nice people take care of us. they would not be in charge if they were not good people. they would never do anything to harm us. its mainly a combination of the naivete. underdeveloped critical reasoning skills. and an upbringing that enforced obedience to authority.
as was noted before in this thread microsoft granted over 70,000 taps in 2012 to various government organizations. including video and audio taps. they are well equipped to store all that data and would not hesitate to collect it for there own use. share it with governments who request it or try to monetize the analytic data. but some will chose not to believe this reality because they want to be safe and happy and believe in there story.
Yeah I don't get this argument either, seems like a certain small group of conspiracy oriented people are making a big deal out of this. And even if this is what MS is doing, the masses have already proved that they don't really care about their privacy too much -- are these same people concerned about their google searches, or having a facebook? Those two companies already have a ton of information on you, not to mention a history of shady privacy oriented choices.
For the record, it's difficult, but you can opt-out of Facebook's data harvesting.
I don't understand throwing around the term "conspiracy" on this issue. There's a camera and a microphone monitoring and recording your actions. That's not something being imagined, that's a fact. In fact, it's being touted as a feature that you should want.
And where exactly has Microsoft said they're monitoring/recording everything and uploading every detail to their servers?
They haven't said that, no. That would destroy any chance of the console selling, whatsoever. However, what they HAVE talked about is the device monitoring everything about you and everything going on in your room, potentially down to the logo on your shirt in order to target adverts at you. If you don't see the road that's leading down, I don't know what else I can say to persuade you that it's probably bad.
So some fears potentially allayed? We'll see, he does some dancing around it, but sounds like you'll have the option to limit what info gets sent, which is a relief.
And where exactly has Microsoft said they're monitoring/recording everything and uploading every detail to their servers?
if you read the link i posted and read the pdf that is exactly where they tell you that they have done those things. just because they have not monitored you personally is not the point. they have, can and will monitor anyone they want. the issue is that the capability is there and they have used it. if you do not find surveillance acceptable then you can not have the device in your home. the act of having the device gives them the capability. they routinely use that capability. it is a fact.
I'm more concerned that this is a 'gateway' piece of hardware - once it's become accepted that this is in the living room, the floodgates will open so to speak, and boundaries will continue to be pushed.
if you read the link i posted and read the pdf that is exactly where they tell you that they have done those things. just because they have not monitored you personally is not the point. they have, can and will monitor anyone they want. the issue is that the capability is there and they have used it. if you do not find surveillance acceptable then you can not have the device in your home. the act of having the device gives them the capability. they routinely use that capability. it is a fact.
unless you can disconnect it then its not off. its just resting. no deal.
And it's estimated that there will be 7.8 billion mobile phones in 2014, most with cameras and microphones and all capable of giving a users location away and most being on a person 24/7.
If you really expect any kind of privacy you shouldn't be connecting to a network of any sort.
Sulky - sure, but the fact that mobile phones can do that does't make it a necessity for a console design to do so too.
That's the whole point really - no one can deny that there are many ways to monitor people easily today. I just think it would be kinda cool if a game console manufacturer stayed out of this kind of business and focused all its energy on making a solid game system instead.
And it's estimated that there will be 7.8 billion mobile phones in 2014, most with cameras and microphones and all capable of giving a users location away and most being on a person 24/7.
If you really expect any kind of privacy you shouldn't be connecting to a network of any sort.
What you're saying here, to my eyes, is that there is little difference between having a phone in your pocket that has GPS tracking and having a camera/microphone aimed at you while you sit in your living room. There is a WORLD of difference there.
now that we can agree on the reality i will submit there is a huge differences between the quality and the scope of intrusions into your privacy by different devices. for instance i have a cell phone with no camera. most people make it a point to turn there cellphone off. and i make it a point to do that. also it is illegal for your phone carrier to access your phone conversations for its own purposes. same with the camera. there are lots of legal restrictions on phones. you phone is not designed to monitor a room at high fidelity with audio and video equipment etc.
to suggest that there is any comparison between that type of surveillance and the capability to collect data from a web browser is silly. the RIAA and others spend millions trying to harvest fairly simple data like ip addresses and they fail miserably. often shooting themselves in the foot accusing the wrong people and getting slapped by the courts. most of the data that is collected is anonymous usage statistics because there is total anonymity on the internet. most user data is not traceable to someones real identity unless they specifically put that data out in the open and a company makes an effort to harvest it. some of the sites like facebook do indeed collect user statistics. but facebook is optional. and the interesting people i know would never use it. its like the walmart of the internet. catering to the lowest common denominator.
if you would like to check out some non technical solutions to managing your privacy there are many options now.
start page search, a replacement for google that does not store your ip address. https://startpage.com/eng/?
its much easier to protect your privacy then you think. the people who put out the message that privacy is irrelevant and can not be protected are social engineering you. it is usually people from law enforcement or people who have a financial stake in surveillance. they are lying. do not be so gullible.
@gray Nobody is saying privacy is irrelevant, and implying that people that don't share your same paranoia are gullible, naive, and have "underdeveloped critical thinking skills" is ridiculous. I would argue that those "naive" people simply have bigger things to worry about than if Microsoft is measuring what ads I'm looking at on the dashboard.
I get the slippery slope argument others have presented though. I can understand how to some this is just another step down the road of corporations knowing everything about your browsing/purchasing habits, but I'd argue that we're already there, as most people already know (and don't care) that they're constantly tracked online, and all that data is gathered by any number of corporations trying to sell you something.
your second point is a direct contradiction of your first!
edit:
now that you know some of your data is collected and there are ways to stop that breach of your privacy you should upgrade your toolset. nothing is static. you can just as easily swing the pendulum back and stop surveillance and data collection. there is no 'we'. your privacy is in your hands and you can stop most if not all intrusions if you want to.
And it's estimated that there will be 7.8 billion mobile phones in 2014, most with cameras and microphones and all capable of giving a users location away and most being on a person 24/7.
If you really expect any kind of privacy you shouldn't be connecting to a network of any sort.
except that with mobile phones, the location tracking is a valid asset for police, for example, and it's obvious and accepted (at least I would think so) that cellphone can be used to determine a person's location.
I can't imagine a case where kidnapped children are rescued because they were playing rhythm twerks in someone's basement and kinect found their faces in user database. (lvl. 2 satire alert)
I totally agree. It's the fact that the user controls the hardware that makes PC games impossible to resell. Although, I don't think mod chips are ubiquitous enough to view as a serious issue. Multiplayer is still not an option for those people, they still have to obey the terms of Xbox Live and the EULA if they want online play.
If console developers want to continue to sell copies, it's likely they're going to have to adopt a model similar to Steam if they don't want to do away with used games.
The one thing that is surprising to me is how quiet Microsoft has been on all of these rumors swirling around. Hopefully E3 will shed light on all of the (mis)information being spread around. Microsoft's silence on all of this is stunning.
Holy fuck. This thread is just a mess of bullshit, people worrying about things they have no fucking clue of and other nonsense.
Gray. I can honestly say I think you are a very paranoid person. No idea how old you are. Your history or anything about you but holy fuck. Go see a shrink or something.
Jesse, do you have a stake in what happens with the XBone? You seem to take so much of this so personal. MS wouldn't have any of these issues if they had actually answered questions at the conference.
I admit, there is a lot of speculation here, without many facts. Hopefully MS is smart enough to address many of these concerns at E3, rather than allowing the rumor mill to continue churning up more speculation. Based on what I'm seeing from many gamers though, the security thing is definitely a concern that is shared with more people than just Gray.
I have no stake at all. I just think it's a bit insane that so many people worry about the unknown so much. I mean many of you guys carry a smart phone that is gps capable that tracks or could track every single place you go. Every text message you send is recorded/saved on a server. There are cameras all over the city you walk/live in.
Yet putting a camera and a microphone in a video game console is the straw that breaks the camels back? Really?
That is my point. Many are starting to sound like they are being tracked by the FBI/CIA. Reason Microsoft has turned over info is because people do things like swatting, threaten people over xbox live, harass and or report crimes.
But as a personal level thing. I'm not being defensive about this at all. I find it funny that any time someone says something that goes against what many say they are defensive when I guess I could turn around and say many of you are defensive and paranoid for no reason because of things you may suspect it is doing.
I can tell you right now that unless you are actually doing something illegal or whatever, no one cares about you.
Is data mined? Yeah sure is. For advertising. Not to lock you up at Gitmo...
Is data mined? Yeah sure is. For advertising. Not to lock you up at Gitmo...
So it's OK then? Fuck that. I don't want advertisers scrutinizing my life so I can receive even more fucking advertising in my daily life. At the very least, I won't let them do it through a cam/mic that I willingly install in my living room.
Maybe it's the way I'm reading things, but most of your replies here have had a very angry/aggressive tone to them. Not trying to pick a fight with you, just pointing it out. I typically side with you on most other thread (not so much on this one though )
I think this may be the thing that hit to close to home for people. Yeah, there are cameras everywhere, and our cellphones are definitely a point of concern, when it comes to security. Not that camera watchdogs are ever truly necessary (IMO), but the ability to watch people on a game/entertainment system is line that is getting unnecessarily crossed. Most of the concerns now, have been triggered by the patent exposing that the kinect will do more than watch your movements as an input device.
Even if MS isn't watching you, there are/should be concerns about other people getting into your system and watching you. Webcams on laptops, have been exposed a lot, in recent years, for allowing someone to hack your system rather easily, and see what is happening in your home. The XBone puts that right into your livingroom.
Either way, I find it funny when people (on either side) get so angry that they change a discussion to an argument. Personally, I'll just send my message with my $$. I won't be purchasing an XBone, because the overall focus of the system seems too far from gaming, and very anti-consumer. I don't think there is anything at E3 that will convince me otherwise.
I think that this video talks some good points. Like what happens to people that don't have the same TV providers? or espn access... or whatever. Also, i do believe that the console was geared to compete with Apple, therefore all of the things that is trying to do except be a game console.
Also.. i am interested to see what is gonna happen with xbox live fee. I am sure that this will still be the norm. Paying for the service to sell you more ads, and to be able to use netflix, or use any other service you are already paying for. So you are paying more to do what you can do on your pc, or say a ps4, and even a wiiU.
Whatever the reason... so far the ps4 looks to me a little more of what i want. If they show exclusives and something great at E3, i'll just skip this one for now.
Also... people are in their right to discuss their worries in the thread. I dunn see why its necessary to tell people they are paranoid or what not. They can care for whatever it is that they want. Didn't know Polycount dictates what kind of thinking people should have before they post.
So it's OK then? Fuck that. I don't want advertisers scrutinizing my life so I can receive even more fucking advertising in my daily life. At the very least, I won't let them do it through a cam/mic that I willingly install in my living room.
The point isn't to feed you more advertisements it to remove the advertisements for shit you have no interest in and replace them with stuff you do.
One example, if you think about the way the appstore works it's a disaster for everyone involved. It's essentially a brick and mortar storefront except on the internet, where you have shelf-space on the front page where 90%+ of the sales are made.
The result is that even though getting your app to the appstore is easy, getting exposure is unbelievably hard. Developers are stuck in a catch 22 where their game has to sell well to get into the top sellers list in order for it to turn a significant profit. It's not helpful to consumers either because they're all funneled the same products to the exclusion of things they might be more interested in and if they are not interested in anything on the front page searching for something they want becomes a chore.
With data mining they could make more relevant recommendations based on your purchase history and people with similar tastes. If you've ever bought anything off Amazon they're pretty much the king of applying data mining with suggestions based on your browsing patterns, purchasing history, and other peoples purchase history.
That said the entire premise of having an internet connected camera in my living room does make me uncomfortable and just seems a bit too orwellian.
The point isn't to feed you more advertisements it to remove the advertisements for shit you have no interest in and replace them with stuff you do.
One example, if you think about the way the appstore works it's a disaster for everyone involved. It's essentially a brick and mortar storefront except on the internet, where you have shelf-space on the front page where 90%+ of the sales are made.
The result is that even though getting your app to the appstore is easy, getting exposure is unbelievably hard. Developers are stuck in a catch 22 where their game has to sell well to get into the top sellers list in order for it to turn a significant profit. It's not helpful to consumers either because they're all funneled the same products to the exclusion of things they might be more interested in and if they are not interested in anything on the front page searching for something they want becomes a chore.
With data mining they could make more relevant recommendations based on your purchase history and people with similar tastes. If you've ever bought anything off Amazon they're pretty much the king of applying data mining with suggestions based on your browsing patterns, purchasing history, and other peoples purchase history.
That said the entire premise of having an internet connected camera in my living room does make me uncomfortable and just seems a bit too orwellian.
Why are there ads on my console in the first place? I should have the ability to say no to ads and disable this data mining. I paid for the damn console, I shouldn't have to have ads shoved down my throat. I have the right to tell Microsoft to keep their damn nose out of my life.
Just so we're clear, the aggression is not directed towards you, it's towards MS. Please don't take offense, none was intended.
Why are there ads on my console in the first place? I should have the ability to say no to ads and disable this data mining. I paid for the damn console, I shouldn't have to have ads shoved down my throat. I have the right to tell Microsoft to keep their damn nose out of my life.
Just so we're clear, the aggression is not directed towards you, it's towards MS. Please don't take offense, none was intended.
In certain cases it makes sense. I mean if you go to the xbox live arcade the whole point of that is to sell indie games, you're essentially in a store obviously you're going to see advertisements.
Steam mines data also (although I believe they use it to aid developers with things like hardware statistics not for advertising purposes), if you have any antivirus installed they all mine data to improve virus detection.
Anyway my only point was that data mining is usually done because it helps benefit the consumer in some way, I agree with everyone here that there are serious limits on how I'm comfortable having people mine data from me.
Edit: I was wrong, Steam mines purchase data also to target advertisements
Why are there ads on my console in the first place? I should have the ability to say no to ads and disable this data mining. I paid for the damn console, I shouldn't have to have ads shoved down my throat. I have the right to tell Microsoft to keep their damn nose out of my life.
Just so we're clear, the aggression is not directed towards you, it's towards MS. Please don't take offense, none was intended.
That fight was already lost years ago. You pay for cable every month, why are there commercials? You paid to get into the theatre, why are there commercials? Blah.
So how do you guys feel about the ads here on polycount then? PS3 had ads as well. It is a way to keep the costs of the services down. Servers, customer service. It all costs money. Advertisers pay good money to get on here. Honestly I ignore most of it as it is no bother but look around. You will find ads everywhere.
Google, Facebook, Amazon, Xbox live, Playstation Network, Steam.
So how do you guys feel about the ads here on polycount then? PS3 had ads as well. It is a way to keep the costs of the services down. Servers, customer service. It all costs money. Advertisers pay good money to get on here. Honestly I ignore most of it as it is no bother but look around. You will find ads everywhere.
Google, Facebook, Amazon, Xbox live, Playstation Network, Steam.
Gotta confess a dark secret.... I use an adblocker so I don't see any ads on polycount Sorry
So how do you guys feel about the ads here on polycount then? PS3 had ads as well. It is a way to keep the costs of the services down. Servers, customer service. It all costs money. Advertisers pay good money to get on here. Honestly I ignore most of it as it is no bother but look around. You will find ads everywhere.
Google, Facebook, Amazon, Xbox live, Playstation Network, Steam.
I'm not paying for access to Polycount, so the ads are a reasonable measure.
I did pay for a console and I have a right to not have someone use my property as a channel to force ads on me. I should have the ability to turn the ads off.
I use ad block too but I've excluded Polycount and a bunch of other sites that I frequently visit and want to support. The ads on polycount are pretty unintrusive anyway and it keeps the site running so I dont really mind : )
I'm not using ad blocker, and as stated, no one is paying for access to polycount. That being said, I understand ads on game systems. I don't think they should make up such a large portion of the UI though (as it does on the 360). I DO think that, if you're paying for Live Gold, or PS+, the ads should not exist (unless they relate to benefits of those subscription programs).
People tend to forget how much cost is involved in maintaining the servers to maintain user data, master servers, and other various content. The ad revenue assists in that. Your original investment in the system does not maintain those services for 5+ years.
Finally a decent person going over the pros and cons fairly objectively without frothing at the mouth about used games as a human right and it posting naked pics of them eating breakfast. Like this douchebag...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ekOtn7L1N0"]Xbox One Reveal: Angry Rant - YouTube[/ame]
Now before you freak out, "you're attacking that angry guy, how could you not agree with him"? These two guys are pretty much saying the exact same thing and I agree with them, the only difference is that one of the guys makes me want to punch him in the throat.
The angry paranoid internet nerds really do take all of the oxygen out of the room...
These two guys are pretty much saying the exact same thing and I agree with them, the only difference is that one of the guys makes me want to punch him in the throat..
Both Total Biscuit and Angry Joe are both internet video game personalities, Angry Joe definitely gives me a slight I want to punch in him the face feeling, but his reviews are actually very good, if you can ignore the yelling. I can cut him some slack for rushing to get out a video on the Xbox one before anyone else. Of course TB's video is going to be a lot less sensationalist, his video came out much later, after everyone else has gotten their word in, and the dust settled. One criticism I have of TB's video is him glossing over the difference between DDR3 and GDDR5, basically saying it's not an advantage or edge that the PS4 has over the Xbox One.
Both Total Biscuit and Angry Joe are both internet video game personalities, Angry Joe definitely gives me a slight I want to punch in him the face feeling, but his reviews are actually very good, if you can ignore the yelling. I can cut him some slack for rushing to get out a video on the Xbox one before anyone else. Of course TB's video is going to be a lot less sensationalist, his video came out much later, after everyone else has gotten their word in, and the dust settled. One criticism I have of TB's video is him glossing over the difference between DDR3 and GDDR5, basically saying it's not an advantage or edge that the PS4 has over the Xbox One.
I liked Angry Joe at first, it was amusing, but not long after I started it just got extremely grating, and I got tired of the constant negativity. I really liked TB's video, very reasoned, good arguments. I think he glossed over the DDR3/GDDR5 issue just because he doesn't quite understand the differences, he went so far as to say that, but in general, I think he makes a good point, that just because one may be perceived to be more powerful, it's all about what developers can do with it, but that goes for any new tech.
heh, privacy issues can be a little overwhelming at first if your not familiar with them.
but i can assure you that its not 'paranoia' its what most of the serious world has to deal with on a daily basis. every large company, government agency, layers, political organisation, banks, stock brokerage, hospital etc has to deal with these issues and has a CSO, chief security officer. and a team of security staff that works with IT to ensure the privacy of communications and sensitive information.
start with something close to home. your NDA, why do you have to sign an nda, what's the big deal? just post all your models and renders on the net why be paranoid about it? well we all know you would be instantly fired if you did that. everything you do is sensitive information and can effect your entire studio if some of this information ends up in public. these are just pictures, even pictures of trolls and elves are sensitive information that can get you fired if your not careful.
just think about more important data, business plans, cash flow, legal cases etc. in most companies people who handle sensitive information can only use devices provided by the CSO to conduct business on. cellphones, laptops etc. these devices are locked down and restricted. they connect to encrypted vpn servers and private gateways. the security team monitors this very closely. any sort of internal data is behind rings of firewalls, special user accounts and other security.
private property is 'private'. you can do all sorts of thing on private property that you can not do on public property. if you smoke a joint in your home there is nothing anyone can do about it. if you smoke a joint at the the mall... your children can be confiscated from you for "ever". you will go to jail. depending on how much you have you can have your house, car and bank account seized. essentially your life can be ruined. private property is the red line for most people. having a camera in your house that can be accessed at any time by law enforcement or anyone else and can incriminate you in breaking the law is full stop not going to happen.
most of the public is just now starting to understand the capability of various devices and the ramifications. but i can assure you that these issues will get bigger and more privacy laws will be enacted to protect people. and more people wil be better equipped to protect there private information easily. part of making that happen is to demand your rights and the laws are not violated. and collectively pushing back at attempts to push the ball in the wrong direction.
That's totally true. I cannot imagine any company serious about its security allowing a Kinect2 in its breakroom - the same way they won't allow business related conversations over an unsecured IM client or Facebook chat.
At the end of the day it's not so much about what the company behind the camera or IM client is claiming to be doing with the data ; it's all about that "pipe" being installed in the first place. But it's true that most of the public doesn't seem to care about that.
not been reading all the thread but seen amazon listed the price for the one at £500+ gbp ?
seems a bit much to me tho?
yeah I would only consider purchasing if its under £350. I agree with the sentiment that you should not have to deal with ads if you have paid for a full price product or service, it destroys the beauty of the ui and just generally clutters the experience with small annoyances. I dont mind going to stores on the console and being showered with ads but they should keep it out of the home screen and general game play experience.
Don't forget the possible lives that could be ruined by such devices. Activities that were thought private become public that could embarrass and ruin the reputation of people. It could cost them their jobs, relationships, opportunities, and so on.
ZacD : Totally - but by the look of things, it really doesn't seem like a power plug and a TV is enough for the new XBox to run and play the games shoved in it's tray. That's probably the one simple question that MS should answer by now, and if I am not mistaken, they are still dancing around the issue ...
ZacD : Totally - but by the look of things, it really doesn't seem like a power plug and a TV is enough for the new XBox to run. That's probably the one simple question that MS should answer by now, and if I am not mistaken, they are still dancing around the issue ...
I wonder how they are going to handle events and situations where they don't have internet but need to market the Xbox One, such as in stores and at expos, including dev's showing off their games at expos. If it is as simple as changing a setting in a hidden command console, it might be a day one hack or exploit.
Replies
Artificial difference, software is just software, PC games used to have drm just as much as consoles had, but the difference was that PC's were not locked like consoles are.
In the end, as have been mentioned in this thread, consoles while chipped will act just the same was as a pc game where the copy-protection have been bypassed, you just burn a disk and give to a friend.
the used games shops stopped taking in pc games when the fact that a tiny key would show how unbound games are to the physical medium, and that the disc lost its worth when that key was used.
Consoles are now coming full circle and are becoming like pc's have been for quite some time, games are software, not a physical medium.
people have to call reality a 'conspiracy' because they cannot accept reality. reality is painful. it strips you of your beliefs and shows you how feeble you are. its much nicer to pretend and believe in a story. stories make people happy and safe. the nice people take care of us. they would not be in charge if they were not good people. they would never do anything to harm us. its mainly a combination of the naivete. underdeveloped critical reasoning skills. and an upbringing that enforced obedience to authority.
as was noted before in this thread microsoft granted over 70,000 taps in 2012 to various government organizations. including video and audio taps. they are well equipped to store all that data and would not hesitate to collect it for there own use. share it with governments who request it or try to monetize the analytic data. but some will chose not to believe this reality because they want to be safe and happy and believe in there story.
http://www.microsoft.com/about/corporatecitizenship/en-us/reporting/transparency/
For the record, it's difficult, but you can opt-out of Facebook's data harvesting.
And where exactly has Microsoft said they're monitoring/recording everything and uploading every detail to their servers?
So some fears potentially allayed? We'll see, he does some dancing around it, but sounds like you'll have the option to limit what info gets sent, which is a relief.
if you read the link i posted and read the pdf that is exactly where they tell you that they have done those things. just because they have not monitored you personally is not the point. they have, can and will monitor anyone they want. the issue is that the capability is there and they have used it. if you do not find surveillance acceptable then you can not have the device in your home. the act of having the device gives them the capability. they routinely use that capability. it is a fact.
edit:
@JONNYquid
unless you can disconnect it then its not off. its just resting. no deal.
And it's estimated that there will be 7.8 billion mobile phones in 2014, most with cameras and microphones and all capable of giving a users location away and most being on a person 24/7.
If you really expect any kind of privacy you shouldn't be connecting to a network of any sort.
That's the whole point really - no one can deny that there are many ways to monitor people easily today. I just think it would be kinda cool if a game console manufacturer stayed out of this kind of business and focused all its energy on making a solid game system instead.
to suggest that there is any comparison between that type of surveillance and the capability to collect data from a web browser is silly. the RIAA and others spend millions trying to harvest fairly simple data like ip addresses and they fail miserably. often shooting themselves in the foot accusing the wrong people and getting slapped by the courts. most of the data that is collected is anonymous usage statistics because there is total anonymity on the internet. most user data is not traceable to someones real identity unless they specifically put that data out in the open and a company makes an effort to harvest it. some of the sites like facebook do indeed collect user statistics. but facebook is optional. and the interesting people i know would never use it. its like the walmart of the internet. catering to the lowest common denominator.
if you would like to check out some non technical solutions to managing your privacy there are many options now.
tor browser, anonymous browsing via an onion routing protocol.
https://www.torproject.org/
ghosterly, block google analytics and site tracking.
https://www.ghostery.com/
start page search, a replacement for google that does not store your ip address.
https://startpage.com/eng/?
its much easier to protect your privacy then you think. the people who put out the message that privacy is irrelevant and can not be protected are social engineering you. it is usually people from law enforcement or people who have a financial stake in surveillance. they are lying. do not be so gullible.
I get the slippery slope argument others have presented though. I can understand how to some this is just another step down the road of corporations knowing everything about your browsing/purchasing habits, but I'd argue that we're already there, as most people already know (and don't care) that they're constantly tracked online, and all that data is gathered by any number of corporations trying to sell you something.
edit:
now that you know some of your data is collected and there are ways to stop that breach of your privacy you should upgrade your toolset. nothing is static. you can just as easily swing the pendulum back and stop surveillance and data collection. there is no 'we'. your privacy is in your hands and you can stop most if not all intrusions if you want to.
they should have stated this during initial presentation.
except that with mobile phones, the location tracking is a valid asset for police, for example, and it's obvious and accepted (at least I would think so) that cellphone can be used to determine a person's location.
I can't imagine a case where kidnapped children are rescued because they were playing rhythm twerks in someone's basement and kinect found their faces in user database. (lvl. 2 satire alert)
I totally agree. It's the fact that the user controls the hardware that makes PC games impossible to resell. Although, I don't think mod chips are ubiquitous enough to view as a serious issue. Multiplayer is still not an option for those people, they still have to obey the terms of Xbox Live and the EULA if they want online play.
If console developers want to continue to sell copies, it's likely they're going to have to adopt a model similar to Steam if they don't want to do away with used games.
More gas on this raging inferno.
The one thing that is surprising to me is how quiet Microsoft has been on all of these rumors swirling around. Hopefully E3 will shed light on all of the (mis)information being spread around. Microsoft's silence on all of this is stunning.
Gray. I can honestly say I think you are a very paranoid person. No idea how old you are. Your history or anything about you but holy fuck. Go see a shrink or something.
I admit, there is a lot of speculation here, without many facts. Hopefully MS is smart enough to address many of these concerns at E3, rather than allowing the rumor mill to continue churning up more speculation. Based on what I'm seeing from many gamers though, the security thing is definitely a concern that is shared with more people than just Gray.
Yet putting a camera and a microphone in a video game console is the straw that breaks the camels back? Really?
That is my point. Many are starting to sound like they are being tracked by the FBI/CIA. Reason Microsoft has turned over info is because people do things like swatting, threaten people over xbox live, harass and or report crimes.
But as a personal level thing. I'm not being defensive about this at all. I find it funny that any time someone says something that goes against what many say they are defensive when I guess I could turn around and say many of you are defensive and paranoid for no reason because of things you may suspect it is doing.
I can tell you right now that unless you are actually doing something illegal or whatever, no one cares about you.
Is data mined? Yeah sure is. For advertising. Not to lock you up at Gitmo...
http://kotaku.com/xbox-ones-kinect-can-turn-off-microsoft-says-noting-510100564?utm_campaign=Socialflow_Kotaku_Facebook&utm_source=Kotaku_Facebook&utm_medium=Socialflow
Was just going to post it. Storm in a teacup it seems. Roll on E3.
Maybe it's the way I'm reading things, but most of your replies here have had a very angry/aggressive tone to them. Not trying to pick a fight with you, just pointing it out. I typically side with you on most other thread (not so much on this one though
I think this may be the thing that hit to close to home for people. Yeah, there are cameras everywhere, and our cellphones are definitely a point of concern, when it comes to security. Not that camera watchdogs are ever truly necessary (IMO), but the ability to watch people on a game/entertainment system is line that is getting unnecessarily crossed. Most of the concerns now, have been triggered by the patent exposing that the kinect will do more than watch your movements as an input device.
Even if MS isn't watching you, there are/should be concerns about other people getting into your system and watching you. Webcams on laptops, have been exposed a lot, in recent years, for allowing someone to hack your system rather easily, and see what is happening in your home. The XBone puts that right into your livingroom.
Either way, I find it funny when people (on either side) get so angry that they change a discussion to an argument. Personally, I'll just send my message with my $$. I won't be purchasing an XBone, because the overall focus of the system seems too far from gaming, and very anti-consumer. I don't think there is anything at E3 that will convince me otherwise.
I think that this video talks some good points. Like what happens to people that don't have the same TV providers? or espn access... or whatever. Also, i do believe that the console was geared to compete with Apple, therefore all of the things that is trying to do except be a game console.
Also.. i am interested to see what is gonna happen with xbox live fee. I am sure that this will still be the norm. Paying for the service to sell you more ads, and to be able to use netflix, or use any other service you are already paying for. So you are paying more to do what you can do on your pc, or say a ps4, and even a wiiU.
Whatever the reason... so far the ps4 looks to me a little more of what i want. If they show exclusives and something great at E3, i'll just skip this one for now.
Also... people are in their right to discuss their worries in the thread. I dunn see why its necessary to tell people they are paranoid or what not. They can care for whatever it is that they want. Didn't know Polycount dictates what kind of thinking people should have before they post.
One example, if you think about the way the appstore works it's a disaster for everyone involved. It's essentially a brick and mortar storefront except on the internet, where you have shelf-space on the front page where 90%+ of the sales are made.
The result is that even though getting your app to the appstore is easy, getting exposure is unbelievably hard. Developers are stuck in a catch 22 where their game has to sell well to get into the top sellers list in order for it to turn a significant profit. It's not helpful to consumers either because they're all funneled the same products to the exclusion of things they might be more interested in and if they are not interested in anything on the front page searching for something they want becomes a chore.
With data mining they could make more relevant recommendations based on your purchase history and people with similar tastes. If you've ever bought anything off Amazon they're pretty much the king of applying data mining with suggestions based on your browsing patterns, purchasing history, and other peoples purchase history.
That said the entire premise of having an internet connected camera in my living room does make me uncomfortable and just seems a bit too orwellian.
Why are there ads on my console in the first place? I should have the ability to say no to ads and disable this data mining. I paid for the damn console, I shouldn't have to have ads shoved down my throat. I have the right to tell Microsoft to keep their damn nose out of my life.
Just so we're clear, the aggression is not directed towards you, it's towards MS. Please don't take offense, none was intended.
Steam mines data also (although I believe they use it to aid developers with things like hardware statistics not for advertising purposes), if you have any antivirus installed they all mine data to improve virus detection.
Anyway my only point was that data mining is usually done because it helps benefit the consumer in some way, I agree with everyone here that there are serious limits on how I'm comfortable having people mine data from me.
Edit: I was wrong, Steam mines purchase data also to target advertisements
Google, Facebook, Amazon, Xbox live, Playstation Network, Steam.
Ditto on addblocker tho. lol
I'm not paying for access to Polycount, so the ads are a reasonable measure.
I did pay for a console and I have a right to not have someone use my property as a channel to force ads on me. I should have the ability to turn the ads off.
People tend to forget how much cost is involved in maintaining the servers to maintain user data, master servers, and other various content. The ad revenue assists in that. Your original investment in the system does not maintain those services for 5+ years.
Finally a decent person going over the pros and cons fairly objectively without frothing at the mouth about used games as a human right and it posting naked pics of them eating breakfast. Like this douchebag...
[ame="
Now before you freak out, "you're attacking that angry guy, how could you not agree with him"? These two guys are pretty much saying the exact same thing and I agree with them, the only difference is that one of the guys makes me want to punch him in the throat.
The angry paranoid internet nerds really do take all of the oxygen out of the room...
Both Total Biscuit and Angry Joe are both internet video game personalities, Angry Joe definitely gives me a slight I want to punch in him the face feeling, but his reviews are actually very good, if you can ignore the yelling. I can cut him some slack for rushing to get out a video on the Xbox one before anyone else. Of course TB's video is going to be a lot less sensationalist, his video came out much later, after everyone else has gotten their word in, and the dust settled. One criticism I have of TB's video is him glossing over the difference between DDR3 and GDDR5, basically saying it's not an advantage or edge that the PS4 has over the Xbox One.
I liked Angry Joe at first, it was amusing, but not long after I started it just got extremely grating, and I got tired of the constant negativity. I really liked TB's video, very reasoned, good arguments. I think he glossed over the DDR3/GDDR5 issue just because he doesn't quite understand the differences, he went so far as to say that, but in general, I think he makes a good point, that just because one may be perceived to be more powerful, it's all about what developers can do with it, but that goes for any new tech.
seems a bit much to me tho?
but i can assure you that its not 'paranoia' its what most of the serious world has to deal with on a daily basis. every large company, government agency, layers, political organisation, banks, stock brokerage, hospital etc has to deal with these issues and has a CSO, chief security officer. and a team of security staff that works with IT to ensure the privacy of communications and sensitive information.
start with something close to home. your NDA, why do you have to sign an nda, what's the big deal? just post all your models and renders on the net why be paranoid about it? well we all know you would be instantly fired if you did that. everything you do is sensitive information and can effect your entire studio if some of this information ends up in public. these are just pictures, even pictures of trolls and elves are sensitive information that can get you fired if your not careful.
just think about more important data, business plans, cash flow, legal cases etc. in most companies people who handle sensitive information can only use devices provided by the CSO to conduct business on. cellphones, laptops etc. these devices are locked down and restricted. they connect to encrypted vpn servers and private gateways. the security team monitors this very closely. any sort of internal data is behind rings of firewalls, special user accounts and other security.
private property is 'private'. you can do all sorts of thing on private property that you can not do on public property. if you smoke a joint in your home there is nothing anyone can do about it. if you smoke a joint at the the mall... your children can be confiscated from you for "ever". you will go to jail. depending on how much you have you can have your house, car and bank account seized. essentially your life can be ruined. private property is the red line for most people. having a camera in your house that can be accessed at any time by law enforcement or anyone else and can incriminate you in breaking the law is full stop not going to happen.
most of the public is just now starting to understand the capability of various devices and the ramifications. but i can assure you that these issues will get bigger and more privacy laws will be enacted to protect people. and more people wil be better equipped to protect there private information easily. part of making that happen is to demand your rights and the laws are not violated. and collectively pushing back at attempts to push the ball in the wrong direction.
At the end of the day it's not so much about what the company behind the camera or IM client is claiming to be doing with the data ; it's all about that "pipe" being installed in the first place. But it's true that most of the public doesn't seem to care about that.
yeah I would only consider purchasing if its under £350. I agree with the sentiment that you should not have to deal with ads if you have paid for a full price product or service, it destroys the beauty of the ui and just generally clutters the experience with small annoyances. I dont mind going to stores on the console and being showered with ads but they should keep it out of the home screen and general game play experience.
I wonder how they are going to handle events and situations where they don't have internet but need to market the Xbox One, such as in stores and at expos, including dev's showing off their games at expos. If it is as simple as changing a setting in a hidden command console, it might be a day one hack or exploit.