All of this stuff that is heavily promoted outside the workshop doesn't seem to be on the same playing field. It's like workshop entries on steroids.
I think the lesson to take from this is... valve needs to consolidate 'Sets' separately from collections, and have them only take up one slot on the weekly lists. Having 6-7 dominate the top is ridiculous, There needs to be a 'This is a set' button separate from collections, which pops them all together.
Not to sound cocky, but my previous sets have dominated the top charts without a organization promoting it. My Kunkka set took up all 8 top slots for a week straight. Want to know why? Because we actually put effort in to create a quality set, solid presentation w/ videos and icons to make us stand out. Dota Cinema was just an extreme overkill this time.
The lesson here is, u need to get up off your ass and take some initiative. The dota 2 workshop is by far the most competitive steam workshop, and you need to do whatever you can to make your stuff stand out. Do something clever w/ a fun video idk... you cant expect everyone to play fair on an even battlefield, welcome to life.
Just dont sit there crying with your thumb in your mouth, take some initiative like Danidem and his videos, TVidotto videos, Mr. Pinkman, etc, then maybe you will get the attention you want.
If I understand this right, Valve set this up for artists?
I hope Dota Cinema and Nexon (whever else) aren't getting revenue from the sets they push through.
It's a democratic system - which is fair - until someone shows up with 600k of their Youtube friends.
Their are easily 3-4 other sets released this week that are as good or better - also in more than 2 colors.
I said I was done my rant but it seriously annoys me when people game the system.
In regards to the Nexon projects, it's related to promoting Dota's launch (Which happened today) in Korea in partnership with Valve. The Dota cinema stuff is a marketing service from the looks of it, in exchange for a %. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Agree though, sets should be consolidated into one icon to reduce clutter and give other people some front page love. A lot of quality work and sets lately.
Well it is the official sven set for DC, which is going to be used forever as their icon. So its not a marketing service at all. The set is going to be used in all the tutorial videos when sven gets used a test dummy for spells, attacks, etc.
also note that the sven set was pieced together based off of votes from dota cinema fans, so its a tribute to them as well.
In regards to the Nexon projects, it's related to promoting Dota's launch (Which happened today) in Korea in partnership with Valve. The Dota cinema stuff is a marketing service from the looks of it, in exchange for a %. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Agree though, sets should be consolidated into one icon to reduce clutter and give other people some front page love.
Not to sound cocky, but my previous sets have dominated the top charts without a organization promoting it. My Kunkka set took up all 8 top slots for a week straight. Want to know why? Because we actually put effort in to create a quality set, solid presentation w/ videos and icons to make us stand out. Dota Cinema was just an extreme overkill this time.
The lesson here is, u need to get up off your ass and take some initiative. The dota 2 workshop is by far the most competitive steam workshop, and you need to do whatever you can to make your stuff stand out. Do something clever w/ a fun video idk... you cant expect everyone to play fair, welcome to life.
Just dont sit there crying with your thumb in your mouth, take some initiative like Danidem and his videos, TVidotto videos, Mr. Pinkman, etc, then maybe you will get the attention you want.
Look man, I enjoy your work and you've done some real quality stuff in the past, but the fact of the matter is the set honestly isn't that good. You're saying take initiative, which makes a great deal of sense if people were bitching about their own sets not doing well, then pointing fingers your way, but what it boils down to is that this set had rocketed to popularity almost solely based on the MASSIVE backing come the Dota Cinema subscribers. The rest are coming from the excellent presentation like you said, but you're in flat out denial I'd you're saying it's as popular as it is because YOU presented it well; the biggest proof of this is 3000+ votes on a damned bracer. And no, you do sound like a cocky shit by comparing this set to your kunkka, because that one is light years ahead of this one in so many ways, texturing especially, you've got two colors on this set, the texturing is down right abysmal, and the masks make this flat texture mixed with the ao and normal map make this entire thing look like plastic. It needs a lot work, and it seems like a rather large amount of us agree on that outside the whole DC promotion thing.
Not to sound cocky, but my previous sets have dominated the top charts without a organization promoting it.
Well, you are obviously doing something right. Still, IMHO your in game screen shots aren't that spectacular. All of your sets are completely monochromatic. Your promotional work is outstanding.
you cant expect everyone to play fair on an even battlefield, welcome to life.
Yeah, it's not my first BBQ - but thanks I've been around long enough to know how fast stuff gets exploited. I guess I should be saying "Congratulations!"
Look man, I enjoy your work and you've done some real quality stuff in the past, but the fact of the matter is the set honestly isn't that good. You're saying take initiative, which makes a great deal of sense if people were bitching about their own sets not doing well, then pointing fingers your way, but what it boils down to is that this set had rocketed to popularity almost solely based on the MASSIVE backing come the Dota Cinema subscribers. The rest are coming from the excellent presentation like you said, but you're in flat out denial I'd you're saying it's as popular as it is because YOU presented it well; the biggest proof of this is 3000+ votes on a damned bracer. And no, you do sound like a cocky shit by comparing this set to your kunkka, because that one is light years ahead of this one in so many ways, texturing especially, you've got two colors on this set, the texturing is down right abysmal, and the masks make this flat texture mixed with the ao and normal map make this entire thing look like plastic. It needs a lot work, and it seems like a rather large amount of us agree on that outside the whole DC promotion thing.
Look kid, try not to overthink things. Do you even know what exploitation means?
Dota cinema has subscribers right? So what do they do, they advertise their set like a normal human being. What are they suppose to do, not advertise it? rofl... my friend its something called utilizing resources.
its not like, we are paying people $ to vote or something... This whole sven project had the dc community involved. they voted for the set, and we produced it.. there is nothing being exploited at all.
Well, you are obviously doing something right. Still, IMHO your in game screen shots aren't that spectacular. All of your sets are completely monochromatic. Your promotional work is outstanding.
Yeah, it's not my first BBQ - but thanks I've been around long enough to know how fast stuff gets exploited. I guess I should be saying "Congratulations!"
SemiColonThree: Why are you being so combative and aggressive? Can we leave the insults at home and have a civil discourse? This isn't the first time you've lashed out at people who are discussing things in a general sense. Don't take things so personally.
There are valid points being brought up here. Like sets being represented as a single item on the workshop page instead of taking up 5-7 slots, and the influence of large organizations on workshop presentation.
1. Its buisness
2. lots of votes didnt help NA'VI, so set quality does rly matter ALOT
3. whats about making couriers and sets for tournaments, didnt see same reaction for Alliance set
so conlusion is- chill and do your best
Had fun streaming last night! I guess I can post these here now since they're public, but we're going to be including some custom animations with this tusk weapon we're working on! A new loadout animation, and new headbutting attack animation! Im saving the second for when we submit tonight!
SemiColonThree: Why are you being so combative and aggressive? Can we leave the insults at home and have a civil discourse? This isn't the first time you've lashed out at people who are discussing things in a general sense. Don't take things so personally.
There are valid points being brought up here. Like sets being represented as a single item on the workshop page instead of taking up 5-7 slots, and the influence of large organizations on workshop presentation.
Just wondering what's with the edge of this weapon? It really stands out for me and looks out of place - not sure if its trying to be sharp (a gradient would be better, a 2 color edge on that angle looks weird) or if you scaled your UV's and are displaying empty white texture.
This is just a question - not a attack, thread seemed to have gotten aggressive.
Just wondering what's with the edge of this weapon? It really stands out for me and looks out of place - not sure if its trying to be sharp (a gradient would be better, a 2 color edge on that angle looks weird) or if you scaled your UV's and are displaying empty white texture.
This is something unique in the world - and it is super cool for artists.
Artists need to stick together and protect this thing rather than whoring themselves out to get a leg up on other artists.
What is the future of this practice of giving a percentage to 3rd parties who have done nothing to create the art? Will they gain an ever increasing margin until artists again are left with nothing? I realize that statement is a little hyperbolic, but it feels like a likely scenario if you protract this out.
Why can't we stick together as artists and protect the true spirit of the workshop?
ok why are you assuming things to begin with, how do u know these things you claim?
1st DC was involved from step a to b in the concept process, and gave us a lot of these ideas.
2nd they are going to help sell the set by promoting store links in their videos, and the set will be featured on all the tutorial videos. so as a business perspective its more profittable.
3rd i repeat again.... the dc fans help put this set together too
4th, the most obvious thing is that sven is the icon of dota cinema? this isnt a abaddon set or anything... yea this is sven we are talking about here...
You are stuck in that mindset that you think every single dota 2 organization is some evil corporation. try to get some facts b4 u make such claims.
This is something unique in the world - and it is super cool for artists.
Artists need to stick together and protect this thing rather than whoring themselves out to get a leg up on other artists.
What is the future of this practice of giving a percentage to 3rd parties who have done nothing to create the art? Will they gain an ever increasing margin until artists again are left with nothing? I realize that statement is a little hyperbolic, but it feels like a likely scenario if you protract this out.
Why can't we stick together as artists and protect the true spirit of the workshop?
1. Its buisness
2. lots of votes didnt help NA'VI, so set quality does rly matter ALOT
3. whats about making couriers and sets for tournaments, didnt see same reaction for Alliance set
so conlusion is- chill and do your best
DotaCinema sent out a written to offer to artists, a TL:DR is basically "You make a set, we will advertise it in our videos but want a cut for it " and they go on to list the amount of views they get per video to interest the artist - this is purely marketing, they don't give feedback or anything you're just creating your own thing and getting more votes by giving them a cut. The sven set was much more involved then initially suggested in the offer, I saw different concepts - polls for the community to vote, so hopefully they've decided to disregard just getting a cut for marketing and have some involvement
Creating something for a team like Alliance involves direct communication with the players / team, you're involved and they're involved in the design process, you won't start making something until both parties are happy with the concept.
This sven set is of course Iconic to DC as the videos feature a sven, so I don't believe it to be part of the forementioned deal, I also remember seen plenty of different concepts and them actually developing it. So please don't make it a part of the topic - I think it's just a example of how powerful marketing can be.
Hopefully saying that doesn't prevent me from appearing in the workshop weekly! But to me it's the same as when I first read their offer - if my work is good it will get upvoted, and if valve likes it they will put it in, having 20k votes don't mean much at the end of the day.
This is something unique in the world - and it is super cool for artists.
Artists need to stick together and protect this thing rather than whoring themselves out to get a leg up on other artists.
What is the future of this practice of giving a percentage to 3rd parties who have done nothing to create the art? Will they gain an ever increasing margin until artists again are left with nothing? I realize that statement is a little hyperbolic, but it feels like a likely scenario if you protract this out.
Why can't we stick together as artists and protect the true spirit of the workshop?
This is where I'll chime in because I agree with you for the most part. For the most part. Some third parties I feel have a right to promote themselves in game for the things they give back to the community. Things like the Na'Vi Weaselcrow, or the IG Dragon are great for the community and fans who love these teams and now have a way to show it. The workshop allows these esport organizations a way to reach out to get these items created without having to go through the process of contacting a developer, setting up meetings, etc. With that being said, the workshop can grow off esports, and vice versa.
Now these can be handled in a few ways, through my own personal experiences working along side of these organizations. Personally, I have no problem giving a percent of the revenue to these organizations as long as the deal is fair for both sides. What can you conclude as fair? That's up to the artist. Third party organizations have a right to be on the workshop, I support it fully. I also feel that it can also inspire other starting workshop artist, acting as a way of, if I make something awesome I can get noticed, and maybe that will lead to an evenutal partnership. What I don't support is organizations taking advantage of workshop artist. And based off a few emails and things I've heard though the grapevine, I can see that blanetly happening. And it needs to stop.
At the end of the day, the most important thing, single most important, reguardless of anything, ANYTHING, is the quality of the item in game, its readablity, tone, color pallet, silhouette. Everything else is an afterthought, something optional, that doesn't determine wether or not your item is successful.
Take what I've typed however you want. I love DOTA, I love the workshop, and I love everyone on polycount, and more then anything else, I fucking love to animate. Cheers everyone. :thumbup:
Creating something for a team like Alliance involves direct communication with the players / team, you're involved and they're involved in the design process, you won't start making something until both parties are happy with the concept.
Working with Nexon was a blast, the communication line was awesome, they knew what they wanted, and creating Korean inspired dota items was a nice change. Overall it was a great experience and I hope others have the oppertunity to work with them in the future. They are doing third-party workshop right! :thumbup:
Random question, is DotaCinema a youtube partner? Do they make ad revenue from their videos?
If set deserves to get ingame, it will, with or without advertisement
Robo already nailed it some pages ago, but that pretty much sums it up.
I would really disagree of such sponsorships if it meant that the sponsored item/set would have bigger chances to get in just because it's linked to some kind of organization, despite its quality.
Hopefully, that's still not the case so far, I think, and I don't see a problem with the guys on DC trying to make a cut from the Workshop.
They've fans and a large community behind them, it's not like they are random people that have no involvement with the Dota scene whatsoever who are just in for some quick cash grab, exploiting artists and such.
Though, I agree that if sponsored stuff start flooding the workshop it won't be good either, but that's something that never happened. Just keep your eyes opened and stones ready to throw at the right time, that isn't right now.
Robo already nailed it some pages ago, but that pretty much sums it up.
I would really disagree of such sponsorships if it meant that the sponsored item/set would have bigger chances to get in just because it's linked to some kind of organization, despite its quality.
Hopefully, that's still not the case so far, I think, and I don't see a problem with the guys on DC trying to make a cut from the Workshop.
They've fans and a large community behind them, it's not like they are random people that have no involvement with the Dota scene whatsoever who are just in for some quick cash grab, exploiting artists and such.
Though, I agree that if sponsored stuff start flooding the workshop it won't be good either, but that's something that never happened. Just keep your eyes opened and stones ready to throw at the right time, that isn't right now.
I honestly think a lot of the issues could be solved with a 'Set' button when submitting on the workshop, separate from collections, that combines the items to one page, so that submissions on the weekly pages aren't flooded. It would also help consolidate set votes from being spread apart.
It's just kind of weird having one or two sets taking up the entire page, regardless of how awesome the sets are, really. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.
I'll chime in on this debate I guess, I'm a bit biased since I worked on the alliance alch set, but I feel that as long as 1) the submission quality is still high 2) both parties are getting a fair deal 3) the partner providing marketing has given a lot to the dota community and deserves to be a part of the game and 4) it is still very much possible for submissions to be accepted without having a partner, then everything is good.
If any of those 4 rules start getting broken regularly then I'll get worried, the penguin and beaver couriers are a bit concerning, but I don't see a problem with the dota cinema sven set at all.
It's just kind of weird having one or two sets taking up the entire page, regardless of how awesome the sets are, really. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.
Agreed.
Random question, is DotaCinema a youtube partner? Do they make ad revenue from their videos?
I think I remember sunsfan saying on a livestream on youtube that he didn't care if people were running adblock or not because they don't make much from youtube anyway, I'm fairly sure the vast majority of their profits come from the dotacinema website.
I liked the workshop when it was just artists making cool stuff for a game they like.
Now, not so much.
The workshop was a very different place when i submitted my first item over a year ago now.
Since then, the workshop has become more and more filled with items that have people and organizations like DotaCinema, CyborgMatt etc. attached to them as well as e-sport team items and items accompanied by tournament tickets. All in exchange for advertisement.
It was obvious this was gonna happen eventually as the workshop grew.
My concern is this: If this continues, in 6-12 months what hope will there be for those who dont want to go all super business like and just make items for fun? Probably none whatsoever.
I liked the workshop when it was just artists making cool stuff for a game they like.
Now, not so much.
The workshop was a very different place when i submitted my first item over a year ago now.
Since then, the workshop has become more and more filled with items that have people and organizations like DotaCinema, CyborgMatt etc. attached to them as well as e-sport team items and items accompanied by tournament tickets. All in exchange for advertisement.
It was obvious this was gonna happen eventually as the workshop grew.
My concern is this: If this continues, in 6-12 months what hope will there be for those who dont want to go all super business like and just make items for fun? Probably none whatsoever.
This is what I worry about too, will having a partnership be a requirement to get accepted a year from now unless you're an Anuxi or Danidem or Jeremy Klein?
I have faith in Valve, but I do worry sometimes.
Although admittedly the quality of submissions today is about 5x better than a year ago too, so so far the increased competition has only been a good thing for the playerbase.
As long as the criteria for an item stays at excellent design, faithful execution, and approval by valve based on those two ideas alone (with or without the public's full approval) there will never be a monopoly on the workshop. Good ideas simply can't be contained, they will find their own way to shine.
I honestly think a lot of the issues could be solved with a 'Set' button when submitting on the workshop, separate from collections, that combines the items to one page, so that submissions on the weekly pages aren't flooded. It would also help consolidate set votes from being spread apart.
It's just kind of weird having one or two sets taking up the entire page, regardless of how awesome the sets are, really. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.
I really like this idea. Lots of great items are being missed out because of the current system.
As long as the criteria for an item stays at excellent design, faithful execution, and approval by valve based on those two ideas alone (with or without the public's full approval) there will never be a monopoly on the workshop. Good ideas simply can't be contained, they will find their own way to shine.
Valve is the one that accepts items in the game.
If the public's approval is not needed, why does the voting system exist ?
If the public's approval is needed, what about the invisible items in a monopolized workshop ?
all new entries must be posted on the first page at the top spot. Up votes shouldn't exist. Instead, Players should Down vote the stuff they dont want, Acting like a filter of public opinion rather than a selection-opinion.
It should be "We dont Want this" Not "We want this".
Again, would players browse through all the random (no offense, often trash stuff) posted ? its not their job to voice their opinion ya know ...
Public opinion on a set does matter to a certain extent, but valve is in the end the sole arbiter of what gets in and what doesn't. The key word there being they don't need full consent from the public to say "we want this featured in our game"
Every new submission could be rated by players in game. Maybe while you are waiting for a game to start a new submission would flash on screen and you could rate it on predetermined criteria.
Each new submission would have equal # of votes and the items would display on the workshop in order of user opinion.
For example, you could rate an item from 1-10 across 1000 users. From that you would have a number between 1-10,000 that would be a pretty good statistical approximation of how universally acceptable an item is.
I actually think data like that might be more useful.
If the public's approval is not needed, why does the voting system exist ?
If the public's approval is needed, what about the invisible items in a monopolized workshop ?
That's my main gripe with the workshop. It just doesn't make sense.
Valve says that they only add what the community wants, but we see pretty frequently that a lot of items that reach the front page just vanish and never see the light of day. On the other hand, the inverse also happens. I browse the workshop pretty often, and obviously also Polycount, and it isn't uncommon to see stuff (specially single items on crates) that just get added to the game without any major acceptance from the playerbase, making it look like Valve doesn't care about votes but "quality".
I would love to see a "Steam Workshop 2.0" with lots of improvements, but I've seen similar discussions as this one on lots of places and they never lead to anything.
My few thoughts on the last pages of conversation.
Dota 2 Workshop (at least the way I lived it)...i started posting my first object 1 year ago, and back then the workshop was a nice place...single artists trying to make something nice for the game they loved...trying to improve also their art skill...very few professional artists involved back then. In general the people voting back then were rewarding quality (mainly poor at that point) and ideas.
Then polycount contest came, and that was the turning point...professional got involved, big on anyone Anuxi who really got an edge on most of the community and started posting superior quality items and a new idea...you can make of Dota 2 your main career!
From here slowly the new idea got in the mind of people, who took Dota 2 way more seriously than what was for TF2 before...sponsored items, linked to big names, big tournaments, slowly started appearing, while the bar of quality kept raising (except few episodes of penguins and beavers (and CKs?)). And the last thing that this morning made my eyes goes like O_O was the 7500 votes of the Sven set in 12 hours. Impressive!...and worrying...
All this story is only to give a perspective of evolution of the workshop...the direction it's taking...Today things are still ok...Sven got hyper popular, but it doesn't prevent other sets without any sponsorship to shine as well (althought way less, even at the same level of quality).
But i think it's not hard to see where this is going...the track is pretty clear ahead...all these episodes of sponsorships and "special sets" are becoming more and more popular, to the point that in some months to 1 year maximum they are going to be almost the standard to get ahead of the thousand of things that get published everyweek...and this scares me a bit. I miss the "old, 1 year ago" times, where was the artist and only the artists that could make the difference.
On the Steam Workshop system...agreed with the thing that Sets should get one slot!
Agree also on how certain items of good quality remains invisible if they don't get an initial boost to make it to the first page at least...
I think the best system wouldn't be actually complicated....Valve already has it...The Greenlight System...you get a batch of 10-12 items, randomly chosen between good,bad,average or whatever....then people vote those items Yes or No....pretty straight forward...and you pass to the next one. after those, you get the option to load or not another batch...in this way every item get visibility, but only certain items get big votes.
And i think with this i said mine...cya
Edit: on the Riki set...not bad, nice presentation as well, but i'd work more on the textures...they look a bit too flat colors imho...welcome in the rumble!
Agree also on how certain items of good quality remains invisible if they don't get an initial boost to make it to the first page at least...
I think the best system wouldn't be actually complicated....Valve already has it...The Greenlight System...you get a batch of 10-12 items, randomly chosen between good,bad,average or whatever....then people vote those items Yes or No....pretty straight forward...and you pass to the next one. after those, you get the option to load or not another batch...in this way every item get visibility, but only certain items get big votes.
I like this. Though there would still need to be a way to see top rated stuff, yeah? obviously there would be direct linking still, but changing the front page from 'top this week' to your random/here vote some suggestion is a good one imo. It's really about showing a wider range of items for consideration instead of those that get the 'initial bump', as it has been said.
And here is my blog where i usually post my WIP. Next project I will make sure to post it in here too. http://dota2puppy.blogspot.com/
I really want to improve myself as an 3D artist and making items for fun. I saw so many great great great artists in polycount, I want to learn from them in here >.<
Sven got hyper popular, but it doesn't prevent other sets without any sponsorship to shine as well (althought way less, even at the same level of quality).
I worry that I, as a single freelance DOTA 2 PLAYING ARTIST that wants to contribute to the game not make 6 digit incomes from it (although it would be nice) that i would be stripped of the chance to get my items in the game because of some monopoly in the workshop.
Valve wont let their game go to Sh*t, so i dont worry about quality of all the submissions that much.
So basically : Valve, we know you love all the big guys pumping the marketed good stuff out and filling your pockets, we would still love to have a significant chance of having our items ingame.
I never did claim to be more successful than everyone
The whole arguement was about complaining about viewcount and votes.
Listen mate, it's all part of the same issue.
Just FYI, my post on your thread that is now a one-liner was previously a 3 paragraph scathing critique that I deleted after thinking, "fuck it, this negativity isn't worth it." However now that other people have stood up to critique it too, I know I'm not just being overly critical. Everyone else seemed to love it, so I doubted what I was thinking.
To sum it up, I think your promotional art is excellent. But I think that set is poor. The shading looks flat in-game, and the masks don't make it look metallic much. The shading issues are very visible on the sword, pauldron and bracer. It's a massive missed opportunity.
So with that in mind, when you say you "actually put effort in to create a quality set" I'm gonna have to disagree with you. You do stunning promotional work, that I agree with. And your previous sets have been very good, that I also agree with. However this set, promotional material aside I don't think is up to your standards.
And therein lie all the issues. The first is spectacular promotion blinding workshop voters to the actual quality of the set. This has been an ongoing debate on here for a while now, and some aren't very pleased with it. In the case of this set, I certainly think that the promotion has caused what's an average looking quality set to be catapulted into the realm of what should be only reserved for the very best sets. Compared that to stuff like Jeremy Klein and Anuxi's sets that barely even claim top spots the way yours do. The only other artist I can think of that consistently does that for a full set would be Don Don.
This is not to slight you or promotional work - it worked great with the Kunkka set, I've got no complaints there. But when it works that well with a set that's not as good, then it starts to look unfair.
The other thing is the pairing up with organisations to get into the Store. It's an issue because of the beaver, and the HUDs etc that have been getting in through association with small tournaments and whatnot. And since this set is not up to your usual standards, the issue rears its ugly head again here - the association with the organisation is similarly keeping people from voting on the actual quality of the set.
You might argue that the ends justify the means, and that you know better how to play the workshop. I'm entirely fine with that, I think the promotional work you do is great, and I like looking at it. I enjoy creating such stuff too in fact. I just think that knowing that set isn't as good as it should be, your effort should be in bringing the set up to the standard of your promotional work, rather than justifying the disparity in standard. I'm pretty darned sure if you can do promotional work like that you have the chops to make the set look as spectacular. My questions is if you put in the "actual effort" to make a quality set, why doesn't it?
Look at it this way, no one complained when Don Don's DK premier league set dominated the top of the charts, and neither did anyone complain when your Kunkka set did so too - because they were superb sets. In fact I took inspiration and learnt from the promotional value of your work. We're artists here, and we like to see art. People are taking issue now because the popularity due to the association with DC doesn't match the quality of that set imo.
--edit-- What package do you do your work in btw? Could it be that the normals on those pieces are inverted and therefore not shading correctly in-game? Cos the shading on that sword looks borked as hell.
Replies
If you watch "Indie Game" you will see that it was Valve who also changed the marketing landscape for indie game developers.
Pretty awesome.
I'm done now
I have finished my new set..
http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=188785392
+1
I think the lesson to take from this is... valve needs to consolidate 'Sets' separately from collections, and have them only take up one slot on the weekly lists. Having 6-7 dominate the top is ridiculous, There needs to be a 'This is a set' button separate from collections, which pops them all together.
Also, K-Pax.... that's AWESOME!
I hope Dota Cinema and Nexon (whever else) aren't getting revenue from the sets they push through.
It's a democratic system - which is fair - until someone shows up with 600k of their Youtube friends.
Their are easily 3-4 other sets released this week that are as good or better - also in more than 2 colors.
I said I was done my rant but it seriously annoys me when people game the system.
The lesson here is, u need to get up off your ass and take some initiative. The dota 2 workshop is by far the most competitive steam workshop, and you need to do whatever you can to make your stuff stand out. Do something clever w/ a fun video idk... you cant expect everyone to play fair on an even battlefield, welcome to life.
Just dont sit there crying with your thumb in your mouth, take some initiative like Danidem and his videos, TVidotto videos, Mr. Pinkman, etc, then maybe you will get the attention you want.
In regards to the Nexon projects, it's related to promoting Dota's launch (Which happened today) in Korea in partnership with Valve. The Dota cinema stuff is a marketing service from the looks of it, in exchange for a %. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Agree though, sets should be consolidated into one icon to reduce clutter and give other people some front page love. A lot of quality work and sets lately.
also note that the sven set was pieced together based off of votes from dota cinema fans, so its a tribute to them as well.
Look man, I enjoy your work and you've done some real quality stuff in the past, but the fact of the matter is the set honestly isn't that good. You're saying take initiative, which makes a great deal of sense if people were bitching about their own sets not doing well, then pointing fingers your way, but what it boils down to is that this set had rocketed to popularity almost solely based on the MASSIVE backing come the Dota Cinema subscribers. The rest are coming from the excellent presentation like you said, but you're in flat out denial I'd you're saying it's as popular as it is because YOU presented it well; the biggest proof of this is 3000+ votes on a damned bracer. And no, you do sound like a cocky shit by comparing this set to your kunkka, because that one is light years ahead of this one in so many ways, texturing especially, you've got two colors on this set, the texturing is down right abysmal, and the masks make this flat texture mixed with the ao and normal map make this entire thing look like plastic. It needs a lot work, and it seems like a rather large amount of us agree on that outside the whole DC promotion thing.
Well, you are obviously doing something right. Still, IMHO your in game screen shots aren't that spectacular. All of your sets are completely monochromatic. Your promotional work is outstanding.
Yeah, it's not my first BBQ - but thanks
and again, like i said Dota Cinema is just overkill i still believe it wouldve reached the top charts anyways. learn 2 read
Dota cinema has subscribers right? So what do they do, they advertise their set like a normal human being. What are they suppose to do, not advertise it? rofl... my friend its something called utilizing resources.
its not like, we are paying people $ to vote or something... This whole sven project had the dc community involved. they voted for the set, and we produced it.. there is nothing being exploited at all.
There are valid points being brought up here. Like sets being represented as a single item on the workshop page instead of taking up 5-7 slots, and the influence of large organizations on workshop presentation.
2. lots of votes didnt help NA'VI, so set quality does rly matter ALOT
3. whats about making couriers and sets for tournaments, didnt see same reaction for Alliance set
so conlusion is- chill and do your best
about the lashes
Ive been extremely friendly with about 99% of the polycount community, aside from a couple disrespectful people.
I not once, started the arguement... if these people are knocking at my door, im going to open the door.
This is just a question - not a attack, thread seemed to have gotten aggressive.
Artists need to stick together and protect this thing rather than whoring themselves out to get a leg up on other artists.
What is the future of this practice of giving a percentage to 3rd parties who have done nothing to create the art? Will they gain an ever increasing margin until artists again are left with nothing? I realize that statement is a little hyperbolic, but it feels like a likely scenario if you protract this out.
Why can't we stick together as artists and protect the true spirit of the workshop?
1st DC was involved from step a to b in the concept process, and gave us a lot of these ideas.
2nd they are going to help sell the set by promoting store links in their videos, and the set will be featured on all the tutorial videos. so as a business perspective its more profittable.
3rd i repeat again.... the dc fans help put this set together too
4th, the most obvious thing is that sven is the icon of dota cinema? this isnt a abaddon set or anything... yea this is sven we are talking about here...
You are stuck in that mindset that you think every single dota 2 organization is some evil corporation. try to get some facts b4 u make such claims.
DotaCinema sent out a written to offer to artists, a TL:DR is basically "You make a set, we will advertise it in our videos but want a cut for it " and they go on to list the amount of views they get per video to interest the artist - this is purely marketing, they don't give feedback or anything you're just creating your own thing and getting more votes by giving them a cut. The sven set was much more involved then initially suggested in the offer, I saw different concepts - polls for the community to vote, so hopefully they've decided to disregard just getting a cut for marketing and have some involvement
Creating something for a team like Alliance involves direct communication with the players / team, you're involved and they're involved in the design process, you won't start making something until both parties are happy with the concept.
This sven set is of course Iconic to DC as the videos feature a sven, so I don't believe it to be part of the forementioned deal, I also remember seen plenty of different concepts and them actually developing it. So please don't make it a part of the topic - I think it's just a example of how powerful marketing can be.
Hopefully saying that doesn't prevent me from appearing in the workshop weekly! But to me it's the same as when I first read their offer - if my work is good it will get upvoted, and if valve likes it they will put it in, having 20k votes don't mean much at the end of the day.
This is where I'll chime in because I agree with you for the most part. For the most part. Some third parties I feel have a right to promote themselves in game for the things they give back to the community. Things like the Na'Vi Weaselcrow, or the IG Dragon are great for the community and fans who love these teams and now have a way to show it. The workshop allows these esport organizations a way to reach out to get these items created without having to go through the process of contacting a developer, setting up meetings, etc. With that being said, the workshop can grow off esports, and vice versa.
Now these can be handled in a few ways, through my own personal experiences working along side of these organizations. Personally, I have no problem giving a percent of the revenue to these organizations as long as the deal is fair for both sides. What can you conclude as fair? That's up to the artist. Third party organizations have a right to be on the workshop, I support it fully. I also feel that it can also inspire other starting workshop artist, acting as a way of, if I make something awesome I can get noticed, and maybe that will lead to an evenutal partnership. What I don't support is organizations taking advantage of workshop artist. And based off a few emails and things I've heard though the grapevine, I can see that blanetly happening. And it needs to stop.
At the end of the day, the most important thing, single most important, reguardless of anything, ANYTHING, is the quality of the item in game, its readablity, tone, color pallet, silhouette. Everything else is an afterthought, something optional, that doesn't determine wether or not your item is successful.
Take what I've typed however you want. I love DOTA, I love the workshop, and I love everyone on polycount, and more then anything else, I fucking love to animate. Cheers everyone. :thumbup:
Working with Nexon was a blast, the communication line was awesome, they knew what they wanted, and creating Korean inspired dota items was a nice change. Overall it was a great experience and I hope others have the oppertunity to work with them in the future. They are doing third-party workshop right! :thumbup:
Random question, is DotaCinema a youtube partner? Do they make ad revenue from their videos?
Pretty damn sure that's a yes.
Robo already nailed it some pages ago, but that pretty much sums it up.
I would really disagree of such sponsorships if it meant that the sponsored item/set would have bigger chances to get in just because it's linked to some kind of organization, despite its quality.
Hopefully, that's still not the case so far, I think, and I don't see a problem with the guys on DC trying to make a cut from the Workshop.
They've fans and a large community behind them, it's not like they are random people that have no involvement with the Dota scene whatsoever who are just in for some quick cash grab, exploiting artists and such.
Though, I agree that if sponsored stuff start flooding the workshop it won't be good either, but that's something that never happened. Just keep your eyes opened and stones ready to throw at the right time, that isn't right now.
***
@SemiColonThree:
Although I would agree that your work is good, it's far from the best one around.
And even if it was, I don't think you're in position of saying what other artists should do to be sucessful *as you*, not in such an arrogant way.
***
So yeah folks, let's keep the good stuff coming. Less talkin', more raidin'!
The whole arguement was about complaining about viewcount and votes.
It's just kind of weird having one or two sets taking up the entire page, regardless of how awesome the sets are, really. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.
If any of those 4 rules start getting broken regularly then I'll get worried, the penguin and beaver couriers are a bit concerning, but I don't see a problem with the dota cinema sven set at all.
Agreed.
I think I remember sunsfan saying on a livestream on youtube that he didn't care if people were running adblock or not because they don't make much from youtube anyway, I'm fairly sure the vast majority of their profits come from the dotacinema website.
That and making it less sluggish, dear god, it's a chore to open each item to rate up.
Now, not so much.
The workshop was a very different place when i submitted my first item over a year ago now.
Since then, the workshop has become more and more filled with items that have people and organizations like DotaCinema, CyborgMatt etc. attached to them as well as e-sport team items and items accompanied by tournament tickets. All in exchange for advertisement.
It was obvious this was gonna happen eventually as the workshop grew.
My concern is this: If this continues, in 6-12 months what hope will there be for those who dont want to go all super business like and just make items for fun? Probably none whatsoever.
This is what I worry about too, will having a partnership be a requirement to get accepted a year from now unless you're an Anuxi or Danidem or Jeremy Klein?
I have faith in Valve, but I do worry sometimes.
Although admittedly the quality of submissions today is about 5x better than a year ago too, so so far the increased competition has only been a good thing for the playerbase.
I really like this idea. Lots of great items are being missed out because of the current system.
Valve is the one that accepts items in the game.
If the public's approval is not needed, why does the voting system exist ?
If the public's approval is needed, what about the invisible items in a monopolized workshop ?
all new entries must be posted on the first page at the top spot. Up votes shouldn't exist. Instead, Players should Down vote the stuff they dont want, Acting like a filter of public opinion rather than a selection-opinion.
It should be "We dont Want this" Not "We want this".
Again, would players browse through all the random (no offense, often trash stuff) posted ? its not their job to voice their opinion ya know ...
Just my thoughts.
Every new submission could be rated by players in game. Maybe while you are waiting for a game to start a new submission would flash on screen and you could rate it on predetermined criteria.
Each new submission would have equal # of votes and the items would display on the workshop in order of user opinion.
For example, you could rate an item from 1-10 across 1000 users. From that you would have a number between 1-10,000 that would be a pretty good statistical approximation of how universally acceptable an item is.
I actually think data like that might be more useful.
That's my main gripe with the workshop. It just doesn't make sense.
Valve says that they only add what the community wants, but we see pretty frequently that a lot of items that reach the front page just vanish and never see the light of day. On the other hand, the inverse also happens. I browse the workshop pretty often, and obviously also Polycount, and it isn't uncommon to see stuff (specially single items on crates) that just get added to the game without any major acceptance from the playerbase, making it look like Valve doesn't care about votes but "quality".
I would love to see a "Steam Workshop 2.0" with lots of improvements, but I've seen similar discussions as this one on lots of places and they never lead to anything.
i hope at least somebody likes it
The Scattered Prince :
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=189012444
and ye! thx to all polycounters that do tutorials and help! you guys do a great job :poly142:
Dota 2 Workshop (at least the way I lived it)...i started posting my first object 1 year ago, and back then the workshop was a nice place...single artists trying to make something nice for the game they loved...trying to improve also their art skill...very few professional artists involved back then. In general the people voting back then were rewarding quality (mainly poor at that point) and ideas.
Then polycount contest came, and that was the turning point...professional got involved, big on anyone Anuxi who really got an edge on most of the community and started posting superior quality items and a new idea...you can make of Dota 2 your main career!
From here slowly the new idea got in the mind of people, who took Dota 2 way more seriously than what was for TF2 before...sponsored items, linked to big names, big tournaments, slowly started appearing, while the bar of quality kept raising (except few episodes of penguins and beavers (and CKs?)). And the last thing that this morning made my eyes goes like O_O was the 7500 votes of the Sven set in 12 hours. Impressive!...and worrying...
All this story is only to give a perspective of evolution of the workshop...the direction it's taking...Today things are still ok...Sven got hyper popular, but it doesn't prevent other sets without any sponsorship to shine as well (althought way less, even at the same level of quality).
But i think it's not hard to see where this is going...the track is pretty clear ahead...all these episodes of sponsorships and "special sets" are becoming more and more popular, to the point that in some months to 1 year maximum they are going to be almost the standard to get ahead of the thousand of things that get published everyweek...and this scares me a bit. I miss the "old, 1 year ago" times, where was the artist and only the artists that could make the difference.
On the Steam Workshop system...agreed with the thing that Sets should get one slot!
Agree also on how certain items of good quality remains invisible if they don't get an initial boost to make it to the first page at least...
I think the best system wouldn't be actually complicated....Valve already has it...The Greenlight System...you get a batch of 10-12 items, randomly chosen between good,bad,average or whatever....then people vote those items Yes or No....pretty straight forward...and you pass to the next one. after those, you get the option to load or not another batch...in this way every item get visibility, but only certain items get big votes.
And i think with this i said mine...cya
Edit: on the Riki set...not bad, nice presentation as well, but i'd work more on the textures...they look a bit too flat colors imho...welcome in the rumble!
thanks Snowstorm Tamarin Oroboros 7thBattery and bounchfx
and hope custom animation in game asap~ go go go AndrewHelenek and Vidotto.
I like this. Though there would still need to be a way to see top rated stuff, yeah? obviously there would be direct linking still, but changing the front page from 'top this week' to your random/here vote some suggestion is a good one imo. It's really about showing a wider range of items for consideration instead of those that get the 'initial bump', as it has been said.
http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=188726463
And here is my blog where i usually post my WIP. Next project I will make sure to post it in here too.
http://dota2puppy.blogspot.com/
I really want to improve myself as an 3D artist and making items for fun. I saw so many great great great artists in polycount, I want to learn from them in here >.<
Cheers to everyone and have a nice day.
I worry that I, as a single freelance DOTA 2 PLAYING ARTIST that wants to contribute to the game not make 6 digit incomes from it (although it would be nice) that i would be stripped of the chance to get my items in the game because of some monopoly in the workshop.
Valve wont let their game go to Sh*t, so i dont worry about quality of all the submissions that much.
So basically : Valve, we know you love all the big guys pumping the marketed good stuff out and filling your pockets, we would still love to have a significant chance of having our items ingame.
Listen mate, it's all part of the same issue.
Just FYI, my post on your thread that is now a one-liner was previously a 3 paragraph scathing critique that I deleted after thinking, "fuck it, this negativity isn't worth it." However now that other people have stood up to critique it too, I know I'm not just being overly critical. Everyone else seemed to love it, so I doubted what I was thinking.
To sum it up, I think your promotional art is excellent. But I think that set is poor. The shading looks flat in-game, and the masks don't make it look metallic much. The shading issues are very visible on the sword, pauldron and bracer. It's a massive missed opportunity.
So with that in mind, when you say you "actually put effort in to create a quality set" I'm gonna have to disagree with you. You do stunning promotional work, that I agree with. And your previous sets have been very good, that I also agree with. However this set, promotional material aside I don't think is up to your standards.
And therein lie all the issues. The first is spectacular promotion blinding workshop voters to the actual quality of the set. This has been an ongoing debate on here for a while now, and some aren't very pleased with it. In the case of this set, I certainly think that the promotion has caused what's an average looking quality set to be catapulted into the realm of what should be only reserved for the very best sets. Compared that to stuff like Jeremy Klein and Anuxi's sets that barely even claim top spots the way yours do. The only other artist I can think of that consistently does that for a full set would be Don Don.
This is not to slight you or promotional work - it worked great with the Kunkka set, I've got no complaints there. But when it works that well with a set that's not as good, then it starts to look unfair.
The other thing is the pairing up with organisations to get into the Store. It's an issue because of the beaver, and the HUDs etc that have been getting in through association with small tournaments and whatnot. And since this set is not up to your usual standards, the issue rears its ugly head again here - the association with the organisation is similarly keeping people from voting on the actual quality of the set.
You might argue that the ends justify the means, and that you know better how to play the workshop. I'm entirely fine with that, I think the promotional work you do is great, and I like looking at it. I enjoy creating such stuff too in fact. I just think that knowing that set isn't as good as it should be, your effort should be in bringing the set up to the standard of your promotional work, rather than justifying the disparity in standard. I'm pretty darned sure if you can do promotional work like that you have the chops to make the set look as spectacular. My questions is if you put in the "actual effort" to make a quality set, why doesn't it?
Look at it this way, no one complained when Don Don's DK premier league set dominated the top of the charts, and neither did anyone complain when your Kunkka set did so too - because they were superb sets. In fact I took inspiration and learnt from the promotional value of your work. We're artists here, and we like to see art. People are taking issue now because the popularity due to the association with DC doesn't match the quality of that set imo.
--edit-- What package do you do your work in btw? Could it be that the normals on those pieces are inverted and therefore not shading correctly in-game? Cos the shading on that sword looks borked as hell.
Thumbs up'ed!