all I see is PC becoming a place to advertise ones work and less about sharing knowledge. Sven set, Abandon set, bu... Etc. So many sets are posted just like that here for the sake of more exposure. If anyone gones back to the first 300 pages of this thread, you will know exactly what I mean. This falls along the lines of this whole last discussion. People are caring to market their items more than anything...
Also, 200 votes are enough to get your item in (maybe less). So I don't understand why go to such lengths in marketing work to hit 1k or 10k.
all I see is PC becoming a place to advertise ones work and less about sharing knowledge. Sven set, Abandon set, bu... Etc. So many sets are posted just like that here for the sake of more exposure. If anyone gones back to the first 300 pages of this thread, you will know exactly what I mean. This falls along the lines of this whole last discussion. People are caring to market their items more than anything...
Personally I believe that's that become of this thread now that we've gotten our own section of the forum. Originally we only had this one thread, everything dota workshop was discussed there. Now just about anyone has their own threads, and we have a deciated tutorial thread. Things just got more spread out.
all I see is PC becoming a place to advertise ones work and less about sharing knowledge. Sven set, Abandon set, bu... Etc. So many sets are posted just like that here for the sake of more exposure. If anyone gones back to the first 300 pages of this thread, you will know exactly what I mean. This falls along the lines of this whole last discussion. People are caring to market their items more than anything...
Also, 200 votes are enough to get your item in (maybe less). So I don't understand why go to such lengths in marketing work to hit 1k or 10k.
There's nothing wrong with promoting your work here unless nobody spends the time to answer a question you ask (which is not an issue here, i believe). It's hard to create good stuff and people want to get attention, that simple.
all I see is PC becoming a place to advertise ones work and less about sharing knowledge. Sven set, Abandon set, bu... Etc. So many sets are posted just like that here for the sake of more exposure. If anyone gones back to the first 300 pages of this thread, you will know exactly what I mean. This falls along the lines of this whole last discussion. People are caring to market their items more than anything...
Also, 200 votes are enough to get your item in (maybe less). So I don't understand why go to such lengths in marketing work to hit 1k or 10k.
I do think that coming here to promote our work is fine, and is just part of how the community works - not everyone is going to want to show all of their work processes. I've definitely benefitted from just coming here for exposure. That was all I wanted when I first joined tbh.
There's nothing wrong with promoting your work here unless nobody spends the time to answer a question you ask (which is not an issue here, i believe). It's hard to create good stuff and people want to get attention, that simple.
well there's no problem with promo here, cause its part of the process, i read vaynes comment a bit different. It just feels a bit odd that people join pc and just throw promo pics and workshop link at you. It feels a bit like an "eat or die" mentality which I highly dislike.
The problem with this is, that if everybody would do that, the community would be dead since the main purpose of the community would be nihilated which is exchange, helping eachother out, talking about stuff. If you only commit towards one side of that you kill the whole purpose. Dialog is not a one way street.
But on the other hand some people join the ring with/for exposure and stay with good comments and a helping hand, you never know. It's just maybe not really clever to join a community and simply put links out there people should vote on. I dont say its wrong, i am just stating that it might convey the wrong attitude.
On the issue of the whole "cheating" an items way into the game by partnering up with some dota2-community celebrities, I am not a big fan of it nor am I a big fan of branding. The whole issue is very complex in my opinion since valve stance on item quality seems to change from shift to shift, so you cant rely on them to sort out that crap stuff, but apparently branded stuff gets in easier when partnering up with the right people.
Its economy and all sorts of nasty practics start to appear. I am not a fan of it, but I dont think we can stop it since it has already worked in the real world, now we have a smaller but very much alike eco system. The problem I have with that is the long term and the consequences some decisions might have which people obviously cant forsee or care about at all.
When some other folks and I visited Valve after TI3 we mentioned to the Dota team that it would be nice to have sets combined into one thumbnail or entry.
I believe they said that the guys who designed the workshop system were working on other projects now. So, I don't see that coming any time soon. The workshop system is sort of external to the actual game's development.
On a different topic, I don't think there's anything to worry about with regards to needing a third party to get your items into the game now or in the future. I doubt it will go that way. Valve will just keep putting in the best stuff regardless. Not every partnered item has gone in and third party partnerships can actually a good way for newer artists to break in to the workshop (assuming the quality is acceptable).
You know i feel this is a healthy discussion for this community to be having, i know i for one share some of the concerns discussed above, while also thinking its brilliant to see additional collaboration options for working with dota 2 teams and organisations.
Mostly i don't often see marketing strategies discussed, and i feel one of the better ways for singular artists to continue to compete in a highly competitive market is to be transparent, share your marketing and social networking insights and dont let fear shut down your ability to share, to support your community and yourself.
So to go out on a limb
Marketing and Social networks i use, have taken an interest in or look like they could.
VK - sometimes referred to as the Russian version of facebook. I see items drawing large amounts of traffic from VK when they are re posted to a popular dota2 VK community.
Facebook - looks like a solid way to share your work, i havnt looked into it much yet but i imagine it's a great way to keep in touch with your fan base.
Tumblr - i started a tumblr page recently and post my items and tutorial videos. Im really liking it, It's not driving huge amounts of views but it gives people an easy way to re post my work if they like it and for me thats what counts.
Youtube - im really enjoying posting to youtube, mostly people view my tutorial videos and dont follow through to my workshop but all in all its a really rewarding platform, which im looking forward to spending more time with.
Reddit - seems to be a mixed bag, and rightly so. If you have a quality submission people will come and vote, if they don't like it they will also vote you down and likely tell you about it as well. Which is really how it should be.
Twitter - not much of a twitter user myself but i do propagate my tumblr posts through to a twitter account. Will spend more time looking into it at some point.
Twitch TV - streaming your work process. Im yet to stream my work but it looks like other artists have had great success building social followings by going this route.
CG Hub - just started posting here, and like the ability to show a wip slideshow
Creating polished Pomo images, i know it's tempting to just post your item on the workshop asap, but it really is so important to have a well put togeather promo image. Mostly you want this so it can be re posted to other social networks by viewers of your workshop and it will be the image that shows up on the dota2 activity panel, often reasonably large.
Anyway thats about all i have and feel im lacking a fair bit of knowledge in this area, it would be great to hear some of your opinions about the above social networks and ideally you have some of your own to share? i have a hard time tracking down dota 2 centric communities and would love the chance to break into a few more.
I think the issue here is that the in game top view lighting in the morning is conflicting w/ the textures, maybe because our textures were too bright. and white light on white textures means the details wont be seen.
Most of our testing process was done through the portrait view and loadout preview, so from our perspective it looked fine.
Correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure they have a lot more depth than they do in game, cause a different light source is being used in the portrait and loadout previews.
We are workin on darkening all the textures, so we can see the details pop out better in game view.
Just FYI, my post on your thread that is now a one-liner was previously a 3 paragraph scathing critique that I deleted after thinking, "fuck it, this negativity isn't worth it." However now that other people have stood up to critique it too, I know I'm not just being overly critical. Everyone else seemed to love it, so I doubted what I was thinking.
To sum it up, I think your promotional art is excellent. But I think that set is poor. The shading looks flat in-game, and the masks don't make it look metallic much. The shading issues are very visible on the sword, pauldron and bracer. It's a massive missed opportunity.
So with that in mind, when you say you "actually put effort in to create a quality set" I'm gonna have to disagree with you. You do stunning promotional work, that I agree with. And your previous sets have been very good, that I also agree with. However this set, promotional material aside I don't think is up to your standards.
And therein lie all the issues. The first is spectacular promotion blinding workshop voters to the actual quality of the set. This has been an ongoing debate on here for a while now, and some aren't very pleased with it. In the case of this set, I certainly think that the promotion has caused what's an average looking quality set to be catapulted into the realm of what should be only reserved for the very best sets. Compared that to stuff like Jeremy Klein and Anuxi's sets that barely even claim top spots the way yours do. The only other artist I can think of that consistently does that for a full set would be Don Don.
This is not to slight you or promotional work - it worked great with the Kunkka set, I've got no complaints there. But when it works that well with a set that's not as good, then it starts to look unfair.
The other thing is the pairing up with organisations to get into the Store. It's an issue because of the beaver, and the HUDs etc that have been getting in through association with small tournaments and whatnot. And since this set is not up to your usual standards, the issue rears its ugly head again here - the association with the organisation is similarly keeping people from voting on the actual quality of the set.
You might argue that the ends justify the means, and that you know better how to play the workshop. I'm entirely fine with that, I think the promotional work you do is great, and I like looking at it. I enjoy creating such stuff too in fact. I just think that knowing that set isn't as good as it should be, your effort should be in bringing the set up to the standard of your promotional work, rather than justifying the disparity in standard. I'm pretty darned sure if you can do promotional work like that you have the chops to make the set look as spectacular. My questions is if you put in the "actual effort" to make a quality set, why doesn't it?
Look at it this way, no one complained when Don Don's DK premier league set dominated the top of the charts, and neither did anyone complain when your Kunkka set did so too - because they were superb sets. In fact I took inspiration and learnt from the promotional value of your work. We're artists here, and we like to see art. People are taking issue now because the popularity due to the association with DC doesn't match the quality of that set imo.
--edit-- What package do you do your work in btw? Could it be that the normals on those pieces are inverted and therefore not shading correctly in-game? Cos the shading on that sword looks borked as hell.
I think the issue here is that the in game top view lighting in the morning is conflicting w/ the textures, maybe because our textures were too bright. and white light on white textures means the details wont be seen.
Most of our testing process was done through the portrait view and loadout preview, so from our perspective it looked fine.
Correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure they have a lot more depth than they do in game, cause a different light source is being used in the portrait and loadout previews.
We are workin on darkening all the textures, so we can see the details pop out better in game view.
One thing you might want to try is testing each item one by one in-game instead of all at once, and then comparing it to the screens of the full set in-game to see if something is breaking on the import.
When we were making our alch set, we discovered that sometimes importing the entire set into a game to test it would completely break the mask files on some of the items, making the metalness disappear and all the textures look completely flat compared to the portrait view. You might want to check and make sure that isn't happening before you make any further adjustments.
Although specular/rimlight ARE stronger in-game than in the portrait and will still brighten things up. One thing you can do on the metal parts is mess around with the alpha channel on mask 2 so that the specular lighting is a more focused dot instead of spread across the entire item, keeping most of the metal the original darker color.
I think the issue here is that the in game top view lighting in the morning is conflicting w/ the textures, maybe because our textures were too bright. and white light on white textures means the details wont be seen.
Most of our testing process was done through the portrait view and loadout preview, so from our perspective it looked fine.
Correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure they have a lot more depth than they do in game, cause a different light source is being used in the portrait and loadout previews.
We are workin on darkening all the textures, so we can see the details pop out better in game view.
That's good to hear.
The point of reference I used was that shoulder piece, which looks very good in the portrait, but it still looks relatively flat to me in the loadout view. The loadout views definitely look a lot better than the in-game ones, though they still lack some of the metalness and spec by colour I think.
The loadout and in-game do use a different view and lighting setup, though personally I find that the in-game textures use a higher res and are clearer than the loadout ones. So at least for me I find that my cosmetics actually look better in-game sometimes, even without the LOD0.
of course! but fun is that valve doesnt show ingame screens on their shop just another loadout version
@motenai thx for the kind words.. and yes i agree with you my colormaps could need some upgrade... i will mark that for myself for my next set / item try to get better :O
I was curious as to whether or not there would be massive drama going on over here today, and was not disappointed.
My thoughts on the matter are this. Contracting with companies/players is cool, if you get a good with them. Advertising/promoting your work is smart.
The DotaCinema guys came to some of us artists a few months ago and basically told us they planned to do a long monthly feature on items, if they were allowed to be cut a percentage (and therefore also credit as a contributor). I don't know if this Sven set is the first example of that or what, but it was obviously effective. And yes, this is definitely "a thing".
So in the future, having to time your submissions AROUND the monthly dotacinema bomb is annoying but manageable. I feel that good sets will always be getting in on merit. But as for the visibility that many artists strive to achieve by being at the top of the workshop, what concerns me is a future where these kinds of ads become a weekly/continual thing. Basically a third party making it so an artist must pay them revenue just to have a shot at the top of the workshop doesn't sit right with me.
semicolonthree: your posts sound very defensive and kinda aggressive. I have been accused of that sort of internet behavior in the past, I get where you're coming from. Props for getting Dota Cinema involved, but I really don't think it is standing on it's own legs. I kinda think it woulda made it to the second page of 9, maybe one piece on the top page. That's conjecture, and there's no way of knowing how it would or would not have done without Dota Cinema, so besides my opinion, there's nothing to go by.
A few of you guys are sounding kinda butthurt about someone having success, but raise some good points of concern for the future of the workshop. Like Chemical said, if Dota Cinema does this like, every week or something, it will take over the workshop, at least for a while. I think they'd wear out their welcome with the workshop community over time, but still, for a few months AT LEAST, they'd own it. I don't see Valve being very happy about that in the long run, though. They're very concerned with the workshop and the contributors, so I don't see them letting third parties take it hostage.
I don't really like it, but the workshop is currently transitioning towards something new, something more sponsorship driven. I do think, though, that there'll always be room for the sets of individuals, if they stand out. We'll just see what happens I guess!
I'm the butthurt guy! I just see artists getting screwed all the time. I guess I feel kinda strongly about this.
I even wrote a letter to reddit! I've never protested anything in my life so not sure why I'm sticking my heels in here. Maybe it was because for one fleeting second I saw hope for all aspiring artists?
Ultimately, I don't think Valve has compromised quality in these sponsorship deals. Yet. I could make the argument that they have come close to compromising quality in the past though just because an item fits a niche no one has filled, or rounds out a chest nicely just because of the hero/slot it's for. I guess my point is, the decision is really up to them, and for all we know they could really agree with what a lot of people here are saying. Or they could decide they'll make a lot of money off of DC sponsored items and just roll them all in.
I trust that they are smart guys who know how to keep this train rolling and making it accessible for everyone.
That said, sorry Vayne4800, but here is me promoting my latest submission without a WIP that will be buried by the corporate monopoly anyway
Im here just to cry and say I hate valve, had my skywrath mage staff particles working properly, and since last mega patch they just broke them. And there is no way I can't seem to make them work,(tried both Dota 2 and Dota 2 test, both with requirement page model and decompiled model, nothing works).
semicolonthree: your posts sound very defensive and kinda aggressive. I have been accused of that sort of internet behavior in the past, I get where you're coming from. Props for getting Dota Cinema involved, but I really don't think it is standing on it's own legs. I kinda think it woulda made it to the second page of 9, maybe one piece on the top page. That's conjecture, and there's no way of knowing how it would or would not have done without Dota Cinema, so besides my opinion, there's nothing to go by.
A few of you guys are sounding kinda butthurt about someone having success, but raise some good points of concern for the future of the workshop. Like Chemical said, if Dota Cinema does this like, every week or something, it will take over the workshop, at least for a while. I think they'd wear out their welcome with the workshop community over time, but still, for a few months AT LEAST, they'd own it. I don't see Valve being very happy about that in the long run, though. They're very concerned with the workshop and the contributors, so I don't see them letting third parties take it hostage.
I don't really like it, but the workshop is currently transitioning towards something new, something more sponsorship driven. I do think, though, that there'll always be room for the sets of individuals, if they stand out. We'll just see what happens I guess!
The reason im defensive is become the person who was complaining wasnt giving actual feedback, he was just flaming.
If these people can give criticism professionaly then I dont mind it. I will think about it, and accept or reject their ideas.
just a wake up call, but for those of you who are complaining about Dota Cinema, you are just lazy communist, and want the workshop to provide equal publicity even to the people who are not working hard enough to get it.
You know, Dota Cinema didnt magically get 600k subscribers out of thin air. They put sweat and tears into earning it. and you know what? they do deserve to advertise their sets, because they have put in a lot of work to become sucessful in life. I mean come on, they even have a week dota 2 top 5 workshop week episode to help "YOU" guys out, and then you sit there fucking complaining, show some respect... Dota cinema has done A LOT for the dota community.
This is a democracy here folks, the people who work the hardest willl be rewarded the most.
Its just like complaining about people not buying your local burgers, because um Mcdonalds buys ads, billboards, etc....... lol, they have this power because they deserve it, end of story.... Maybe one day your local burger joint will become the next fast food franchise... you just have to earn it...
Right now I can name some workshop artist who could probably compete w/ dota cinema's publicity.. such as kunkka (he got 23000 votes on his loadout screens), Anuxxi, Danidem, tvidotto, etc.....
If you are worriedd about views, take some advice from Lennyagony.... create blogs, use social media to advertise your set...... eventually your name will grow to the point where you can get 10k+ votes on your own.
but in all, from the fast few pages the only thing that is correct is what bounchfx said "combine collections into 1 item".. this will make everyone happier.
just a wake up call, but for those of you who are complaining about Dota Cinema, you are just lazy communist, and want the workshop to provide equal publicity even to the people who are not working hard enough to get it.
You know, Dota Cinema didnt magically get 600k subscribers out of thin air. They put sweat and tears into earning it. and you know what? they do deserve to advertise their sets, because they have put in a lot of work to become sucessful in life. I mean come on, they even have a week dota 2 top 5 workshop week episode to help "YOU" guys out, and then you sit there fucking complaining, show some respect... Dota cinema has done A LOT for the dota community.
"Show some respect" says the guy calling some of the artist on here lazy communist.
Its just like complaining about people not buying your local burgers, because um Mcdonalds buys ads, billboards, etc....... lol, they have this power because they deserve it, end of story.... Maybe one day your local burger joint will become the next fast food franchise... you just have to earn it...
Great example there! So let me get this straight, one day I can stop making good burgers in my small little resturant, sign a deal, get some adds, etc, and become a fast food chain where I make poorly made burgers that sell very well because people are blinded by marketing, but in the end make lots of money?
after all what does all those votes do? i saw valve taking in sets with 40 votes. and i saw projects be in the top3 for some time who never made it into game. all this voteshit is just a manipulation of our own minds. valve takes something in, if they think that it is good and they can make *holla holla dollar* with it - thats all (at least i think so)
This is a democracy here folks, the people who work the hardest willl be rewarded the most.
This is not how the Workshop is working right now. As I've said on another post, some amazing and fitting items just disappear after getting positive feedback from the community, while some not so great items get added just because they're partnered with some big name organization. Do you think it's fair that artists need to partner up with someone so they can have a slight chance of having their stuff noticed? I agree that DotaCinema worked hard for their subscribers and whatnot, but this isn't the point. The point is that people like that are using their popularity in order to get anything heavily marketed and then inside the game. This isn't supposed to be about marketing but about artists and their items.
As a side note, sorry if I sound like an ass, but I think you're coming up as one as well with those posts, being so aggressive and defensive about your items, as if people should be "thankful" that those organizations are using their power to promote Dota items. I can only sense your arrogance when you say that people should "work harder" to get their items noticed. Isn't this the easy way out? Just getting some big name to do the marketing work for you? How is this hard work? I believe that hard work is what you should give to your items.
Great example there! So let me get this straight, one day I can stop making good burgers in my small little resturant, sign a deal, get some adds, etc, and become a fast food chain where I make poorly made burgers that sell very well because people are blinded by marketing, but in the end make lots of money?
WHAT BLASPHEMY!!! MCDONALDS IS AMAZING!!! for its price....
1$ can get you a whole spicey chicken sandwhich man, with lettuce chicken mayo... also 1$ for a double cheese burgerrr, is really good value there... You can even get any size coke product for 1$ as well!
but if you are not a fan of mcdonalds, there are other mainstream restuarants you must like right? KFC? Wingers? Rodizios?
I think this discussion of the workshop/organizations should be in a separate thread.
But I think (because of this situation) that artists and organizations should no longer be able to submit their name on their products. Meaning they have to submit their work anonymously in the workshop just so people would vote based on quality.
Person submits item > Workshop keeps author(s) in database(for confirmation on author(s) for portfolio assessment or something)> Voting
Of course there would always be information on other sites, but in the dota 2 workshop itself, the artists should just be invisible.
No system is full proof so if anyone gets angry and starts poking some flaws in this, just know that it took me longer to type this than to think of the sytem itself.
The reason im defensive is become the person who was complaining wasnt giving actual feedback, he was just flaming.
If these people can give criticism professionaly then I dont mind it. I will think about it, and accept or reject their ideas.
Been plenty of valid criticism, maybe you are are just in denial about it becuase the criticism is aimed in your direction?
About dota cinema,
just a wake up call, but for those of you who are complaining about Dota Cinema, you are just lazy communist, and want the workshop to provide equal publicity even to the people who are not working hard enough to get it.
No, we just want the workshop (and the revenue) to belong to artists rather than outside organizations and people who just want a cut of the profit.
You know, Dota Cinema didnt magically get 600k subscribers out of thin air. They put sweat and tears into earning it. and you know what? they do deserve to advertise their sets, because they have put in a lot of work to become sucessful in life. I mean come on, they even have a week dota 2 top 5 workshop week episode to help "YOU" guys out, and then you sit there fucking complaining, show some respect... Dota cinema has done A LOT for the dota community.
Seriously doubt they put "sweat and tears" into anything. They were the first ones to make some 2 min youtube videos and hero guides and managed to get a bunch of subscribers from it.
Dont they get enough money from youtube? Do they need to own the workshop too?
And why is the show called "Top 5 Weekly" when its completely based on their opinion? Instead of "weekly workshop", where they would go through all the stuff that has been submitted in a week and give some critique?
But hey, i suppose a video longer than 10 min would be too much for them.
This is a democracy here folks, the people who work the hardest willl be rewarded the most.
Its just like complaining about people not buying your local burgers, because um Mcdonalds buys ads, billboards, etc....... lol, they have this power because they deserve it, end of story.... Maybe one day your local burger joint will become the next fast food franchise... you just have to earn it...
Just becuase that is the reality doesnt mean you have to like it. Maybe the local burger joint works harder and has better burgers? Getting the most advertisement has nothing to do with "working hard" or earning and deserving success.
Right now I can name some workshop artist who could probably compete w/ dota cinema's publicity.. such as kunkka (he got 23000 votes on his loadout screens), Anuxxi, Danidem, tvidotto, etc.....
If you are worriedd about views, take some advice from Lennyagony.... create blogs, use social media to advertise your set...... eventually your name will grow to the point where you can get 10k+ votes on your own.
but in all, from the fast few pages the only thing that is correct is what bounchfx said "combine collections into 1 item".. this will make everyone happier.
And good job calling people lazy communists just because they dont want the workshop to turn into a race of whoever can get the most advertisement by sharing revenue.
Sry if im raging but this last post by you was just...ugh
Leagues/ teams can only submit their items directly to valve representitive. Valve either accepts or denies the items. If valve wants to see how the community feels. They (vavle) submit it into the workshop without having teams/league names on the item. Finally the last condition for the item to be be with the leaguer team is that it's not advertised anywhere else on the internet(finished product). A quick search on google can finish everything up in like a minute. If it is found being advertised, it is rejected.
And good job calling people lazy communists just because they dont want the workshop to turn into a race of whoever can get the most advertisement by sharing revenue.
Isnt that what communism is tho? a communist country is basically a country that isnt a race....
Again you can have your views on it... whatever.... it doesnt make you any more correct or less correct than my beliefs. this is all a debate in the end... im all in for a democracy though.
and I have taken in criticism, and we are already working on refixing some issues w/ the sven set. Im happy to listen to criticism, as long as you are not an asshat about it... Primrose tried giving me some advice using words like fucking "abysmal" quality.. how the fuck am i suppose to react to this disrespect?
Isnt that what communism is tho? a communist country is basically a country that isnt a race....
That may be true, but this is just the workshop, not a country.
There will always be 2 sides to it. The ones who are all for total freedom and you can do whatever you want and whatever is necessary to get ahead in the workshop, and the ones who defend what the workshop originally was and was supposed to be.
Leagues/ teams can only submit their items directly to valve representitive. Valve either accepts or denies the items. If valve wants to see how the community feels. They (vavle) submit it into the workshop without having teams/league names on the item. Finally the last condition for the item to be be with the leaguer team is that it's not advertised anywhere else on the internet(finished product). A quick search on google can finish everything up in like a minute. If it is found being advertised, it is rejected.
You know I was just thinking about this today, I honestly feel if valve wants to continue to push third-parties in dota (and I hope they do) I'd like to see a second section or tab open up, decicated to just third-parties.
So it's not really communism, if it's what is was originally, and you want to keep that, it will more be conservatism right? Since we're all up in this political ideology business.
I don't see "more than half of the people" bashing the op, but even if that was true, how does this makes any of the discussion here different? People bashing OP on Reddit would suddenly change the opinion of the majority of users here? It sounds like a pretty childish excuse.
Anyway, all of this aside, I'm glad that you took criticism the right way and is changing stuff based on it. Even though I'm not really a fan of the whole thing, I think that the set have some serious potential, so good luck with everything!
Simple changes to how the workshop works could fix everything. But things like the options to import and submit sets as a whole has been in demand for a long time now and valve has only made small changes to the workshop since it opened up.
I honestly dont even know if they care at all what happens in the workshop as long as they get enough items to put in the game.
So it's not really communism, if it's what is was originally, and you want to keep that, it will more be conservatism right? Since we're all up in this political ideology business.
Look, even if you guys wanted to stop all this competitiveness. It still wouldn't happen.... just like how you cant stop an economy from existing... Lets say valve really does make some changes, there will always be a bunch of people out there who will try to find out ways to outshine each other.
its just a natural process of life, you can never get rid of it. people will find these nooks and crannys, eventually.
but a bunch of these communist countries have eventually converted to a democracy over the hundreds of years, because you know why??? a democracy is a the real way of how a population should function.
Honestly I wouldn't mind having third party sponsored sets advertised in a Banner similar to the way they are done in the DOTA 2 client. My assumption is, could be wrong, that the vast majority of these sets are included within the client anyway. With the obvious exceptions of some of the works from NaVi, I expect that working with a sponsor increases the chance of inclusion. In this way the Workshop is more of a further advertisement rather than an area for community voting. Especially in the case of Dota Cinema where the voting on the set was conducted outside of the workshop.
I think this speaks to the need for an overhaul of the workshop in general. I would love to see space for these "sponsored" sets but keep them from occupying such a large space on the front page.
i would not like to intervene on the discussion, mainly because i think discussing is always good, i just want to ask to keep the tone down and DO NOT act aggressively here, people should feel free to give their opinion without worrying of being harassed
Lets keep the discussions going, the main thread is amazing for that, but please, lets keep the environment as friendly as usual =]
We never had the chance to post it in here but here is our second item for Nexon! Tusk's Glacial Shard! I think I can speak for everyone that worked on this that we are all very proud of how this item turned out. And doing new animations for Tusk was awesome!
AndrewHelenek: Love it so much, turned out great!
7thBattery:Love this hair style too!
K-PAX: amazing set! I am almost embarrassed to upload my sword now, but I must get better... little by little... :poly136:
Puppy: Very nice for a first set! Keep it up!
My second Dota submission, there were some wips posted :poly124:, must improve at making Dota items, I am really enjoying this compared to the TF2 items I submitted :poly142:
Links to workshop
We never had the chance to post it in here but here is our second item for Nexon! Tusk's Glacial Shard! I think I can speak for everyone that worked on this that we are all very proud of how this item turned out. And doing new animations for Tusk was awesome!
Top notch work guys, definitely taking it to the next level
Replies
Also, 200 votes are enough to get your item in (maybe less). So I don't understand why go to such lengths in marketing work to hit 1k or 10k.
Personally I believe that's that become of this thread now that we've gotten our own section of the forum. Originally we only had this one thread, everything dota workshop was discussed there. Now just about anyone has their own threads, and we have a deciated tutorial thread. Things just got more spread out.
There's nothing wrong with promoting your work here unless nobody spends the time to answer a question you ask (which is not an issue here, i believe). It's hard to create good stuff and people want to get attention, that simple.
I do think that coming here to promote our work is fine, and is just part of how the community works - not everyone is going to want to show all of their work processes. I've definitely benefitted from just coming here for exposure. That was all I wanted when I first joined tbh.
well there's no problem with promo here, cause its part of the process, i read vaynes comment a bit different. It just feels a bit odd that people join pc and just throw promo pics and workshop link at you. It feels a bit like an "eat or die" mentality which I highly dislike.
The problem with this is, that if everybody would do that, the community would be dead since the main purpose of the community would be nihilated which is exchange, helping eachother out, talking about stuff. If you only commit towards one side of that you kill the whole purpose. Dialog is not a one way street.
But on the other hand some people join the ring with/for exposure and stay with good comments and a helping hand, you never know. It's just maybe not really clever to join a community and simply put links out there people should vote on. I dont say its wrong, i am just stating that it might convey the wrong attitude.
On the issue of the whole "cheating" an items way into the game by partnering up with some dota2-community celebrities, I am not a big fan of it nor am I a big fan of branding. The whole issue is very complex in my opinion since valve stance on item quality seems to change from shift to shift, so you cant rely on them to sort out that crap stuff, but apparently branded stuff gets in easier when partnering up with the right people.
Its economy and all sorts of nasty practics start to appear. I am not a fan of it, but I dont think we can stop it since it has already worked in the real world, now we have a smaller but very much alike eco system. The problem I have with that is the long term and the consequences some decisions might have which people obviously cant forsee or care about at all.
I believe they said that the guys who designed the workshop system were working on other projects now. So, I don't see that coming any time soon. The workshop system is sort of external to the actual game's development.
On a different topic, I don't think there's anything to worry about with regards to needing a third party to get your items into the game now or in the future. I doubt it will go that way. Valve will just keep putting in the best stuff regardless. Not every partnered item has gone in and third party partnerships can actually a good way for newer artists to break in to the workshop (assuming the quality is acceptable).
Mostly i don't often see marketing strategies discussed, and i feel one of the better ways for singular artists to continue to compete in a highly competitive market is to be transparent, share your marketing and social networking insights and dont let fear shut down your ability to share, to support your community and yourself.
So to go out on a limb
Marketing and Social networks i use, have taken an interest in or look like they could.
VK - sometimes referred to as the Russian version of facebook. I see items drawing large amounts of traffic from VK when they are re posted to a popular dota2 VK community.
Facebook - looks like a solid way to share your work, i havnt looked into it much yet but i imagine it's a great way to keep in touch with your fan base.
Tumblr - i started a tumblr page recently and post my items and tutorial videos. Im really liking it, It's not driving huge amounts of views but it gives people an easy way to re post my work if they like it and for me thats what counts.
Youtube - im really enjoying posting to youtube, mostly people view my tutorial videos and dont follow through to my workshop but all in all its a really rewarding platform, which im looking forward to spending more time with.
Reddit - seems to be a mixed bag, and rightly so. If you have a quality submission people will come and vote, if they don't like it they will also vote you down and likely tell you about it as well. Which is really how it should be.
Twitter - not much of a twitter user myself but i do propagate my tumblr posts through to a twitter account. Will spend more time looking into it at some point.
Twitch TV - streaming your work process. Im yet to stream my work but it looks like other artists have had great success building social followings by going this route.
CG Hub - just started posting here, and like the ability to show a wip slideshow
Creating polished Pomo images, i know it's tempting to just post your item on the workshop asap, but it really is so important to have a well put togeather promo image. Mostly you want this so it can be re posted to other social networks by viewers of your workshop and it will be the image that shows up on the dota2 activity panel, often reasonably large.
Anyway thats about all i have and feel im lacking a fair bit of knowledge in this area, it would be great to hear some of your opinions about the above social networks and ideally you have some of your own to share? i have a hard time tracking down dota 2 centric communities and would love the chance to break into a few more.
Most of our testing process was done through the portrait view and loadout preview, so from our perspective it looked fine.
Correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure they have a lot more depth than they do in game, cause a different light source is being used in the portrait and loadout previews.
We are workin on darkening all the textures, so we can see the details pop out better in game view.
One thing you might want to try is testing each item one by one in-game instead of all at once, and then comparing it to the screens of the full set in-game to see if something is breaking on the import.
When we were making our alch set, we discovered that sometimes importing the entire set into a game to test it would completely break the mask files on some of the items, making the metalness disappear and all the textures look completely flat compared to the portrait view. You might want to check and make sure that isn't happening before you make any further adjustments.
Although specular/rimlight ARE stronger in-game than in the portrait and will still brighten things up. One thing you can do on the metal parts is mess around with the alpha channel on mask 2 so that the specular lighting is a more focused dot instead of spread across the entire item, keeping most of the metal the original darker color.
That's good to hear.
The point of reference I used was that shoulder piece, which looks very good in the portrait, but it still looks relatively flat to me in the loadout view. The loadout views definitely look a lot better than the in-game ones, though they still lack some of the metalness and spec by colour I think.
The loadout and in-game do use a different view and lighting setup, though personally I find that the in-game textures use a higher res and are clearer than the loadout ones. So at least for me I find that my cosmetics actually look better in-game sometimes, even without the LOD0.
of course! but fun is that valve doesnt show ingame screens on their shop just another loadout version
@motenai thx for the kind words.. and yes i agree with you my colormaps could need some upgrade... i will mark that for myself for my next set / item try to get better :O
My thoughts on the matter are this. Contracting with companies/players is cool, if you get a good with them. Advertising/promoting your work is smart.
The DotaCinema guys came to some of us artists a few months ago and basically told us they planned to do a long monthly feature on items, if they were allowed to be cut a percentage (and therefore also credit as a contributor). I don't know if this Sven set is the first example of that or what, but it was obviously effective. And yes, this is definitely "a thing".
So in the future, having to time your submissions AROUND the monthly dotacinema bomb is annoying but manageable. I feel that good sets will always be getting in on merit. But as for the visibility that many artists strive to achieve by being at the top of the workshop, what concerns me is a future where these kinds of ads become a weekly/continual thing. Basically a third party making it so an artist must pay them revenue just to have a shot at the top of the workshop doesn't sit right with me.
So we'll just see how that goes!
A few of you guys are sounding kinda butthurt about someone having success, but raise some good points of concern for the future of the workshop. Like Chemical said, if Dota Cinema does this like, every week or something, it will take over the workshop, at least for a while. I think they'd wear out their welcome with the workshop community over time, but still, for a few months AT LEAST, they'd own it. I don't see Valve being very happy about that in the long run, though. They're very concerned with the workshop and the contributors, so I don't see them letting third parties take it hostage.
I don't really like it, but the workshop is currently transitioning towards something new, something more sponsorship driven. I do think, though, that there'll always be room for the sets of individuals, if they stand out. We'll just see what happens I guess!
I even wrote a letter to reddit! I've never protested anything in my life so not sure why I'm sticking my heels in here. Maybe it was because for one fleeting second I saw hope for all aspiring artists?
Here is a link to my letter.
http://en.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1p9gle/why_dota_cimena_and_other_3rd_parties_should_stay/
I trust that they are smart guys who know how to keep this train rolling and making it accessible for everyone.
That said, sorry Vayne4800, but here is me promoting my latest submission without a WIP that will be buried by the corporate monopoly anyway
Shame on you Valve xD
The reason im defensive is become the person who was complaining wasnt giving actual feedback, he was just flaming.
If these people can give criticism professionaly then I dont mind it. I will think about it, and accept or reject their ideas.
just a wake up call, but for those of you who are complaining about Dota Cinema, you are just lazy communist, and want the workshop to provide equal publicity even to the people who are not working hard enough to get it.
You know, Dota Cinema didnt magically get 600k subscribers out of thin air. They put sweat and tears into earning it. and you know what? they do deserve to advertise their sets, because they have put in a lot of work to become sucessful in life. I mean come on, they even have a week dota 2 top 5 workshop week episode to help "YOU" guys out, and then you sit there fucking complaining, show some respect... Dota cinema has done A LOT for the dota community.
This is a democracy here folks, the people who work the hardest willl be rewarded the most.
Its just like complaining about people not buying your local burgers, because um Mcdonalds buys ads, billboards, etc....... lol, they have this power because they deserve it, end of story.... Maybe one day your local burger joint will become the next fast food franchise... you just have to earn it...
Right now I can name some workshop artist who could probably compete w/ dota cinema's publicity.. such as kunkka (he got 23000 votes on his loadout screens), Anuxxi, Danidem, tvidotto, etc.....
If you are worriedd about views, take some advice from Lennyagony.... create blogs, use social media to advertise your set...... eventually your name will grow to the point where you can get 10k+ votes on your own.
but in all, from the fast few pages the only thing that is correct is what bounchfx said "combine collections into 1 item".. this will make everyone happier.
"Show some respect" says the guy calling some of the artist on here lazy communist.
Great example there! So let me get this straight, one day I can stop making good burgers in my small little resturant, sign a deal, get some adds, etc, and become a fast food chain where I make poorly made burgers that sell very well because people are blinded by marketing, but in the end make lots of money?
This is not how the Workshop is working right now. As I've said on another post, some amazing and fitting items just disappear after getting positive feedback from the community, while some not so great items get added just because they're partnered with some big name organization. Do you think it's fair that artists need to partner up with someone so they can have a slight chance of having their stuff noticed? I agree that DotaCinema worked hard for their subscribers and whatnot, but this isn't the point. The point is that people like that are using their popularity in order to get anything heavily marketed and then inside the game. This isn't supposed to be about marketing but about artists and their items.
As a side note, sorry if I sound like an ass, but I think you're coming up as one as well with those posts, being so aggressive and defensive about your items, as if people should be "thankful" that those organizations are using their power to promote Dota items. I can only sense your arrogance when you say that people should "work harder" to get their items noticed. Isn't this the easy way out? Just getting some big name to do the marketing work for you? How is this hard work? I believe that hard work is what you should give to your items.
Just my two cents.
WHAT BLASPHEMY!!! MCDONALDS IS AMAZING!!! for its price....
1$ can get you a whole spicey chicken sandwhich man, with lettuce chicken mayo... also 1$ for a double cheese burgerrr, is really good value there... You can even get any size coke product for 1$ as well!
but if you are not a fan of mcdonalds, there are other mainstream restuarants you must like right? KFC? Wingers? Rodizios?
But I think (because of this situation) that artists and organizations should no longer be able to submit their name on their products. Meaning they have to submit their work anonymously in the workshop just so people would vote based on quality.
Person submits item > Workshop keeps author(s) in database(for confirmation on author(s) for portfolio assessment or something)> Voting
Of course there would always be information on other sites, but in the dota 2 workshop itself, the artists should just be invisible.
No system is full proof so if anyone gets angry and starts poking some flaws in this, just know that it took me longer to type this than to think of the sytem itself.
Been plenty of valid criticism, maybe you are are just in denial about it becuase the criticism is aimed in your direction?
No, we just want the workshop (and the revenue) to belong to artists rather than outside organizations and people who just want a cut of the profit.
Seriously doubt they put "sweat and tears" into anything. They were the first ones to make some 2 min youtube videos and hero guides and managed to get a bunch of subscribers from it.
Dont they get enough money from youtube? Do they need to own the workshop too?
And why is the show called "Top 5 Weekly" when its completely based on their opinion? Instead of "weekly workshop", where they would go through all the stuff that has been submitted in a week and give some critique?
But hey, i suppose a video longer than 10 min would be too much for them.
Just becuase that is the reality doesnt mean you have to like it. Maybe the local burger joint works harder and has better burgers? Getting the most advertisement has nothing to do with "working hard" or earning and deserving success.
And good job calling people lazy communists just because they dont want the workshop to turn into a race of whoever can get the most advertisement by sharing revenue.
Sry if im raging but this last post by you was just...ugh
Leagues/ teams can only submit their items directly to valve representitive. Valve either accepts or denies the items. If valve wants to see how the community feels. They (vavle) submit it into the workshop without having teams/league names on the item. Finally the last condition for the item to be be with the leaguer team is that it's not advertised anywhere else on the internet(finished product). A quick search on google can finish everything up in like a minute. If it is found being advertised, it is rejected.
Isnt that what communism is tho? a communist country is basically a country that isnt a race....
I mean im not the only person who has this view...More than half of the people on this reddit post are actually bashing the op. http://en.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1p9gle/why_dota_cimena_and_other_3rd_parties_should_stay/
Again you can have your views on it... whatever.... it doesnt make you any more correct or less correct than my beliefs. this is all a debate in the end... im all in for a democracy though.
and I have taken in criticism, and we are already working on refixing some issues w/ the sven set. Im happy to listen to criticism, as long as you are not an asshat about it... Primrose tried giving me some advice using words like fucking "abysmal" quality.. how the fuck am i suppose to react to this disrespect?
That may be true, but this is just the workshop, not a country.
There will always be 2 sides to it. The ones who are all for total freedom and you can do whatever you want and whatever is necessary to get ahead in the workshop, and the ones who defend what the workshop originally was and was supposed to be.
You know I was just thinking about this today, I honestly feel if valve wants to continue to push third-parties in dota (and I hope they do) I'd like to see a second section or tab open up, decicated to just third-parties.
I don't see "more than half of the people" bashing the op, but even if that was true, how does this makes any of the discussion here different? People bashing OP on Reddit would suddenly change the opinion of the majority of users here? It sounds like a pretty childish excuse.
Anyway, all of this aside, I'm glad that you took criticism the right way and is changing stuff based on it. Even though I'm not really a fan of the whole thing, I think that the set have some serious potential, so good luck with everything!
I honestly dont even know if they care at all what happens in the workshop as long as they get enough items to put in the game.
Look, even if you guys wanted to stop all this competitiveness. It still wouldn't happen.... just like how you cant stop an economy from existing... Lets say valve really does make some changes, there will always be a bunch of people out there who will try to find out ways to outshine each other.
its just a natural process of life, you can never get rid of it. people will find these nooks and crannys, eventually.
but a bunch of these communist countries have eventually converted to a democracy over the hundreds of years, because you know why??? a democracy is a the real way of how a population should function.
I think this speaks to the need for an overhaul of the workshop in general. I would love to see space for these "sponsored" sets but keep them from occupying such a large space on the front page.
i would not like to intervene on the discussion, mainly because i think discussing is always good, i just want to ask to keep the tone down and DO NOT act aggressively here, people should feel free to give their opinion without worrying of being harassed
Lets keep the discussions going, the main thread is amazing for that, but please, lets keep the environment as friendly as usual =]
[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXvjpMPEVGo[/ame]
AndrewHelenek: Ohhh this looks so good. Thumbsuped!
7thBattery:Love this hair style too!
K-PAX: amazing set! I am almost embarrassed to upload my sword now, but I must get better... little by little... :poly136:
Puppy: Very nice for a first set! Keep it up!
My second Dota submission, there were some wips posted :poly124:, must improve at making Dota items, I am really enjoying this compared to the TF2 items I submitted :poly142:
Links to workshop
Top notch work guys, definitely taking it to the next level
Great work Helenek