This makes me laugh so hard
polycounter lvl 18
Remember that thread here about Everquest 2 characters and how crappy they were? And how many people defended it as being tech limitation?
http://forums.gaming-age.com/showthread.php?t=36852
OWNED.
http://forums.gaming-age.com/showthread.php?t=36852
OWNED.
Replies
john
lol...theres hope for me yet....
john
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I agree with you there. If someone can get paid for that , then even I can get a job in the industry.
I would've gone with WoW, art direction from Blizzard blows this crap away, then the asians make it all spiffy.
im sure there will be people saying that the western models are better.
and that makes me cry
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how true...
work that comes out of Japan is to a higher degree of quality than in the West.
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I'd like to know the reasons for that. I'm not a fan of anime, but the differences in quality of art between the old and new EQ2 characters is painfully obvious. Except, one of the new version chicks looks WAY too thin.
work that comes out of Japan is to a higher degree of quality than in the West.
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Hurray! Someone finally said what I've been thinking. I haven't put much thought into it, but maybe it's the huge importance Oriental cultures put in aesthetics? Like, compare cathedrals to temples. Temples have alot of detail in the form and silhouette, but also alot of painted and line detail. Lots of curves upon curves and such and such. Cathedrals are mostly form, with the texture of the materials providing most of the surface detail. I don't know much of what I'm talking about. Like, haven't bothered to do any research, but these are things I'm thinking of off the top of my head.
But yeah, Daz. I'm sure alot of it has to do with discipline. But you gotta wonder how many hours that discipline causes them to do.
I'm really looking forward to what the Japanese and Koreans do with normal maps.
In general, the Japanese hold group identity in higher esteem than the individual. I think westerners are vaguely aware of this, but not so much the extent to which it has an effect. Discipline is a factor in their successes, but a team-oriented culture can even compensate for a lack of discipline in certain regards. Consider an American game design studio. If some guy on your team is screwing up, be it laziness or lack of ability or whatever, a common response is "it's not my fault, it's not my problem, etc etc." The individual and his shortcomings are isolated, rather than viewed in terms of the overall result. America is the world's leading 'blame' culture; people are generally more interested in making sure the other guy is in the wrong than finding mutual solutions to make it right. If the guy sucks or is a slacker, some will even stand back and hope the guy falls flat on his face so management drags him to the curb, shitty product be damned. The westerner just disassociates himself from the product - this is my art, but not my game (I think Daz made this point before, in reference to his work on Goldeneye 2 being on his resume).
The Japanese would handle it almost in an entirely opposite fashion. If someone isn't pulling his weight, the whole group would try to pick up his slack - seeing if they could help the guy get it together, working a few extra hours to make up work that he hasn't finished, etc. Individual accolades are almost forgotten, as they collectively identify themselves as a team, and by the game they're making. No one wants to be part of a team that makes a shitty game; they won't simply say "well, my stuff was fine, everyone else sucked." An employee who is consistently not a team player will eventually be let go, but every effort will first be made to get everyone on the same page and working together to achieve their common goal. Blame simply isn't an issue like it is in the west - if the product sucks, people go out of their way to take responsibility for it ("I didn't help him enough") rather than the classic American style ("he ruined it for everyone"). Quality can't help but improve, even if people are just working sane 9-to-5 schedules, because everyone has the group/product's best interest in mind.
That sounds pretty great, for the most part, but it has a drawback. Some of you might have heard the Japanese referred to as lousy inventors but great innovators. The group-oriented culture and desire to fit in tends to stifle original, outside-the-box thinking. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but that creative individuals are less likely to bring their ideas forward for fear of rocking the boat. The nail that sticks up is the one that gets pounded down, so to speak, and Japanese in general don't want that sort of humiliation (not being a team player, etc). Japanese manufacturing has made its name by taking other nations'/cultures' ideas and making them 'better.' People think of Japanese cars and electronics, mainly, but it can even extend to video game art.
I don't know if I related this to the EQ2 situation very well, or how this might apply to other Asian cultures (my coursework was Japanese specific), but I think there are a few good talking points in there
As for the question at hand. I've asked a friend of mine before, her answer was thus:
"We whip our artists."
but thats just what I think and I could be wrong, and maybe its a terrible tragedy...
I read on CGtalk a japanese guy describing trying to find a job in japan video game industry ( He finally got a job at Namco Japan ). Only the best of the best get in and that means you are competing against people who have been Anime artists, Background painting artists , Manga artists .Can you imagine if you had to compete with people who had been working at Disney for years painting background to get a texturing job . You would certainly have to step up the game . So in other words everybody working as an artist in the Japanese game industry is like a Kenneth Scott or Bobo . That makes sense to me also just by comparing game art from japan to game art in America . Take for Example the lastest Mortal Combat vs Soul Calibur 2 . Mortal combat looks pretty good but it just does compare to Soul Calibur 2 or the latest DOA . Just my opinion.
pogonip: You do have a point, no matter how badly spelt it was-- though I think you exaggerate a little. Rather than "everyone in japan draws, EVERYONE", which isn't really true-- it's more an issue of the exceptance of NPR art and stylism in general as people age. The existence of Manga and Anime in mainstream Japanese culture means that the job of the NPR and/or production artist is much more largely accepted and therefore, sought after-- therefore as you mentioned, there are many more of them.
I don't know about anyone else on this board, but personally, my experiences with art in our society has been poor at best. I won't regale to you tales of art classes that were canceled out of frustration with the students, or any of that crap because you don't want to hear it, but suffice it to say, the finer qualities of life are lost on most "healthy young american" youths-- and not just the current generation. If all our football fans were artists, we'd kick Japan's ass Artwise
I don't have to even bring in any asian artist into this discussion to show how weak the art is on Eq2. Thank you... goodnight.
Scott
The eyes are way out of proportion, nearly two-thirds of the head, and the mouth so small that the character is lucky she doesn't starve to death. Typical manga facial characteristics, an exaggeration of form rather than artistic ignorance. If you'd gone with someone infamously bad, a guy like Rob Liefeld let's say, I could see your point, but Turner's later Witchblade and Fathom work has been very distinctively his own style. He's consistant with his distortions, which I think shows intent. You might not like the look, but a lot of people aren't fans of huge-eyed school girls with inexplicable cat ears either. That's taste, not technical merit.
I mainly went into a comparison of 2 pieces of good game art from the US and Japan. Yeah, the US EQ stuff is bad, but also the Asian EQ2 stuff, but just looks better. Mainly, what Mojo said.
On a side note, I'd like to make a game where you're a semi-ridged penis, trying to copulate with your own soul to give birth to the concept of bliss. A concept that eludes us so often. It's a metaphor.
pogonip: thats quite an exaggeration there dude, theres plenty of people in the states who draw from a really early age I disagree that VERYONE in Japan is like ken scott or bobo, thats just not true, hell look at the damn asian EQ 2 screenshots, they're slightly better than the US ones, but they don't COMPLETELY BLOW everything away. Seriously the whole Japanese superiority is pretty stupid, they're humans just like us they eat breathe and draw just like us, there are some of them that are good and there are some of them that suck, same with us, there are some differences, and thats why they seem to have tighter art direction than generally is the case in the states.
AND ... its pretty hard to get into the industry here in the states too.
honestly those asian EQ2 models look better than the US ones... but they still aren't all that amazing...
i think that when something is artists style, it is imediantly obvious that it is style, no one looks at mike mignolas work and think that it is just poorly drawn,. actualy now that i think about it even mignolas proportions are better than that pic that ruggles posted, the human characters that is.
Who cares it its technically correct. The point is does it fit what is being drawn?
I remember seeing a Rob Liefeld cover of Captain America, where Capt America's back was towards you.....the anatomy showed 2 spines on Cap....separate column for the neck, then a separate column for the back, and you could see a zig zag and a break between the two.
Yet Rob was thought of as a great artist?.....at the time...and Rob Liefeld is still in the business.
I think the problem with game art is the same problem the comic book industry had during the 1990's....game art is being runned by fans rather then artists.
In the 90's, it was hard to distinguish between fan art and comic book art......I'm seeing a parallel.
What I'm insinuating is: Rob Liefeld is a fanboy....what are fanboys in the game industry?
[Edit]And Daz, I already know I can't spell....[/Edit]
Another thing is that here in the States I really don't think that the BEST of the BEST artists go into video games with few exceptions like Kenneth Scott and some others at various game companies . Maybe that is just starting to happen now and maybe more will go with Next Gen becoming more appealing to those types, but I think it's pretty obvious that the best people work in the Film FX industry and places like Pixar and Dreamworks . Where as in Japan a good portion of the best people work in the Video game industry . I really think if you took some of the best artists from our Film industry and places like Pixar and Dream works and put them in various American game companies you would see a vast improvment in Game art Quality and at the very least better animation . I just think that's being honest .
Ohh and you say that it is hard to get in the game industry here and I agree with you to a point but it is much harder to get into the Film Industry at like ILM or Pixar , and that would be comparing apples to oranges with the Japanese video game industry .
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I remember the first time I saw a Fathom comic. I loved everything about it. I still enjoy looking at the comics greatly. In short, I love Fathom.
You might not like the look, but a lot of people aren't fans of huge-eyed school girls with inexplicable cat ears either. That's taste, not technical merit.
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I was purposefully avoiding using Anime as a counter example. I think Turner is crap, because "Bad" isn't a style. I'm intollerant of many examples of heavy stylization... sue me.
Scott
pogonip: I think the problem is that you manage to say it in a way that even I disagree with you.
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I never said I was a good debater I also have knack of putting things the wrong way or some how offending people when the intention was never there !! ..O'well who cares EA is going to buy every company eventually anyways nobody will know who makes what
Ohh and I personally think Micheal Turner has done some very beautiful work but now his stuff is just so influnced by Marc Silvestri who also at one time was a good artist but now looks more like Liefield quality
I loved this Cover from Fathom by Turner
Scott
Without context, a lot of great artwork work is thrown in the garbage right out. No one is going to look at Picasso's Nude Descending A Staircase and find that figure more technically 'accurate' than the Fathom cover, but that's not the basis upon which it ought to be evaluated.
Hughs is awesome.
Turner sucks....it's as simple as that.
And Neal Adams kicks ass and you should kiss his feet.
Really, you guys should look at jeffrey jones, syd mead, and john foster before you start love'n hack storyboard artists.
http://www.jonfoster.com/
Alot of people called john foster....he's the one I'm talk'n about.
[Edit: This is my Neeener Neeener]OH OH OH OH, and by the way Ron Lemen, the art instructor you met at San Francisco Concept Art Convention thinks Most Image Artists suck too.......Ron Lemen likes the masters.[/Edit]
If you really want to fall in love with an Image Artist, fall in love with Travis Trist or Jim Lee
http://www.travischarestgallery.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=gallery