This makes me laugh so hard

Daz

Remember that thread here about Everquest 2 characters and how crappy they were? And how many people defended it as being tech limitation?

http://forums.gaming-age.com/showthread.php?t=36852

OWNED.

Kevin Johnstone

sheesh.... someone got paid to make the US version...

Slayerjerman

jesus, i was expecting some slightly modified looking characters. But the asian release versions totally blew me away. Where can i get a copy of that version? ROFL

ElysiumGX

i never actually knew the EQ2 characters looked THAT bad. Jeezus. I hope the artists have been fired. And if by chance those artists visit this forum....I hope you've been fired and beaten severely with clubs wrapped in barbwire.

Mishra

jesus christ no wonder people like world of warcraft better.

Bronco

lol...theres hope for me yet....

john

Hollowmind

Damn. That US human female looks like she has downs syndrome while the Jap version is hot as hell.

adam

Dubya tee eff, we suck.

Thegodzero

You know you're bad, when the team thats only supposed to translate you're game goes and makes new art for it because it too ugly.

flaagan

i like how the responses go from "damn we got cheated" to "what are WoW people doing here" to "Those asian characters look like ass to the American modles" to "yah, i dont like the 'anime' characters, USA~!"

pogonip

Ehhh no Offense to you R13 but Sony is chalked full of has half assed artists !! I mean those American version models were getting complaints from the first screen shots . Are they supposed to be stylized or something ?? I dunno if I was the Art Director on EQ 2 I would have went with the Bad ASS Soul Calibure look ( slightly less anime maybe ) rather then the current Eq 2 " Hey mom look what I made in Bryce in like 2 seconds " look .

Marine

hopefully sony will release those models in a content update or an expansion. they're not quite as cool as lineage2's characters though

rolfness

mmmm lineage 2 sigh I miss that game ...

KDR_11k

Knowing SOE those will DEFINITELY be in some kind of addon.

TechSmith

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lol...theres hope for me yet....

john

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I agree with you there. If someone can get paid for that , then even I can get a job in the industry.

RageUnleashed

Roflmao and to think one of my friends was saying "omg EQ2 has the best graphics EVERRRRR".

I would've gone with WoW, art direction from Blizzard blows this crap away, then the asians make it all spiffy.

JO420

Wow what a difference,althogh best mmog models ive seen have to be the Dark Age of Camelot expansion models,the elf girls are beautifully made.

sundance

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im sure there will be people saying that the western models are better.


and that makes me cry


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how true...

Daz

As far as I see it there are two compounding issues here. Firstly, that the Art direction on EQ2 failed miserably in its duties and responsibilities, and secondly, that generally ( note that I said generally here. Not 'in all cases' ) work that comes out of Japan is to a higher degree of quality than in the West. The reasons for that, are worthy of further discussion I think.

TomDunne

Because all their artists are ninjas, obviously.

ElysiumGX

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work that comes out of Japan is to a higher degree of quality than in the West.

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I'd like to know the reasons for that. I'm not a fan of anime, but the differences in quality of art between the old and new EQ2 characters is painfully obvious. Except, one of the new version chicks looks WAY too thin.

JKim3

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work that comes out of Japan is to a higher degree of quality than in the West.

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Hurray! Someone finally said what I've been thinking. I haven't put much thought into it, but maybe it's the huge importance Oriental cultures put in aesthetics? Like, compare cathedrals to temples. Temples have alot of detail in the form and silhouette, but also alot of painted and line detail. Lots of curves upon curves and such and such. Cathedrals are mostly form, with the texture of the materials providing most of the surface detail. I don't know much of what I'm talking about. Like, haven't bothered to do any research, but these are things I'm thinking of off the top of my head.

Daz

I believe it's a lot to do with discipline, a strong chain of command and rank on the team. Look at the textures in Metal Gear Solid 2 or 3. Unlike most western games, every single one of them looks like they were painted by the same artist. They have that distinct immaculate pixel perfect style. They must simply have extremely tight and detailed style guides to work from, set in place by and enforced by the Art Director religiously. Ths is not something I've ever experienced on any game I've ever worked on. By the way, WoW I think has disciplined Art Direction. Again I would say that it has a texture set that looks like the work of one individual.

ndcv

Yeah, like the roof of the Cistine Chapel. Lame!

JKim3

I know you were just joking, but incase someone brings it up, I never said game art from the west was bad. It's just not my taste, is all.

But yeah, Daz. I'm sure alot of it has to do with discipline. But you gotta wonder how many hours that discipline causes them to do. But, I would love to work at a company with the passion to dedicate the time and money for a game. Much like MGS3. It really feels like they were caring about the product as much or more than the sales.

I'm really looking forward to what the Japanese and Koreans do with normal maps.

TomDunne

I think it's a slippery slope to try explaining why a culture or race performs a given task better or worse than another (barring the obvious ninja explanation), but I actually covered something along these lines in a Japanese anthropology course I took ages ago.

In general, the Japanese hold group identity in higher esteem than the individual. I think westerners are vaguely aware of this, but not so much the extent to which it has an effect. Discipline is a factor in their successes, but a team-oriented culture can even compensate for a lack of discipline in certain regards. Consider an American game design studio. If some guy on your team is screwing up, be it laziness or lack of ability or whatever, a common response is "it's not my fault, it's not my problem, etc etc." The individual and his shortcomings are isolated, rather than viewed in terms of the overall result. America is the world's leading 'blame' culture; people are generally more interested in making sure the other guy is in the wrong than finding mutual solutions to make it right. If the guy sucks or is a slacker, some will even stand back and hope the guy falls flat on his face so management drags him to the curb, shitty product be damned. The westerner just disassociates himself from the product - this is my art, but not my game (I think Daz made this point before, in reference to his work on Goldeneye 2 being on his resume).

The Japanese would handle it almost in an entirely opposite fashion. If someone isn't pulling his weight, the whole group would try to pick up his slack - seeing if they could help the guy get it together, working a few extra hours to make up work that he hasn't finished, etc. Individual accolades are almost forgotten, as they collectively identify themselves as a team, and by the game they're making. No one wants to be part of a team that makes a shitty game; they won't simply say "well, my stuff was fine, everyone else sucked." An employee who is consistently not a team player will eventually be let go, but every effort will first be made to get everyone on the same page and working together to achieve their common goal. Blame simply isn't an issue like it is in the west - if the product sucks, people go out of their way to take responsibility for it ("I didn't help him enough") rather than the classic American style ("he ruined it for everyone"). Quality can't help but improve, even if people are just working sane 9-to-5 schedules, because everyone has the group/product's best interest in mind.

That sounds pretty great, for the most part, but it has a drawback. Some of you might have heard the Japanese referred to as lousy inventors but great innovators. The group-oriented culture and desire to fit in tends to stifle original, outside-the-box thinking. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but that creative individuals are less likely to bring their ideas forward for fear of rocking the boat. The nail that sticks up is the one that gets pounded down, so to speak, and Japanese in general don't want that sort of humiliation (not being a team player, etc). Japanese manufacturing has made its name by taking other nations'/cultures' ideas and making them 'better.' People think of Japanese cars and electronics, mainly, but it can even extend to video game art.

I don't know if I related this to the EQ2 situation very well, or how this might apply to other Asian cultures (my coursework was Japanese specific), but I think there are a few good talking points in there

Asthane

Its good to see this kind of discussion without it turning into anti-anime. I hate to see hate for "anime" template get in the way of obviously good art.

As for the question at hand. I've asked a friend of mine before, her answer was thus:

"We whip our artists."

rawkstar

heh... yeah I'm thinking theres just a different mentality when it comes to game art. In the west its the ego driven "mine's better", we all want to affect something and somehow matter that is why everyone tries to make his work unique, rather than try and make something great as a team. This might also have something to do with the whole capitalistic "make what sells" approach they have for games here in the west, so in general gameplay suffers too, its quantity of things that sell over quality of products that are great. That is also just speaking in general, there are ofcourse good companies in the west that make great things, but they're usually more of an exception rather than the general rule. This also means that theres less confidence in the people working on projects in the west in the fact that those projects are indeed great, so that brings in things like "Yeah the game sucks, but my art is great" so in general I think game artists in the west tend to believe that what they're doing personally is more important than conforming to a certain style to benefit the project. Might also have something to do with the whole fact that most US game artists are fairly young and and theres the whole "rebel/nonconformist" thing going on in their heads...

but thats just what I think and I could be wrong, and maybe its a terrible tragedy...

pogonip

I think it's a lot more simple then all that. Japanese are raised on Manga and Anime and EVERYBODY draws when they are young . Like if you ever seen the stuff that Masamune Shirow was rejected for when he was trying to become a manga artist it would have blown away some of Americas more talented working comic book artists at the time . Being a highly compedative and very skilled artist from a young age is much more engrained in there culture . I really think those classic skill sets like drawing and painting really make the diffrence when it comes to the skill of an artist even if he decides to just do 3D modeling . Learning to think in Perportion and Volume and shading ( lighting ) .

I read on CGtalk a japanese guy describing trying to find a job in japan video game industry ( He finally got a job at Namco Japan ). Only the best of the best get in and that means you are competing against people who have been Anime artists, Background painting artists , Manga artists .Can you imagine if you had to compete with people who had been working at Disney for years painting background to get a texturing job . You would certainly have to step up the game . So in other words everybody working as an artist in the Japanese game industry is like a Kenneth Scott or Bobo . That makes sense to me also just by comparing game art from japan to game art in America . Take for Example the lastest Mortal Combat vs Soul Calibur 2 . Mortal combat looks pretty good but it just does compare to Soul Calibur 2 or the latest DOA . Just my opinion.

Malekyth

I hope we can agree that the Asian release looks better than the Western one not because Japanese artists are generally better than Western artists, but because this group of American artists didn't do a particularly good job (or they had too little time to do it, or the wrong people were assigned to particular jobs, or whatever; the usual suspects apply). At the very least, you can't compare crappy American art to competent Japanese art as an example to support these stupid Internet-driven notions of Japanese superiority. The EQ2 comparisons shouldn't even constitute food for thought, really.

JKim3

It's probably better to say that it's all a matter of taste.

Asthane

Malekyth: The issue is really a case of number as well as quality. Sure, you can say that you should compare bad art to bad art, but in general I see a lot more american games with bad art-- not to mention the level of the product. With the popularity of Everquest, there should have been no way in hell it could have been shipped with such poor art. I think it shows a frightening disregard for the quality of the product in the (american) game dev machine. It's as much an issue with the publisher/art director as it is just saying "the artists sucked" or "american artists suck", really. Yes, this is probably a poor backdrop for the Japanese vs. American art discussion, but that discussion is valid (and noticable, not just in games).

pogonip: You do have a point, no matter how badly spelt it was-- though I think you exaggerate a little. Rather than "everyone in japan draws, EVERYONE", which isn't really true-- it's more an issue of the exceptance of NPR art and stylism in general as people age. The existence of Manga and Anime in mainstream Japanese culture means that the job of the NPR and/or production artist is much more largely accepted and therefore, sought after-- therefore as you mentioned, there are many more of them.

I don't know about anyone else on this board, but personally, my experiences with art in our society has been poor at best. I won't regale to you tales of art classes that were canceled out of frustration with the students, or any of that crap because you don't want to hear it, but suffice it to say, the finer qualities of life are lost on most "healthy young american" youths-- and not just the current generation. If all our football fans were artists, we'd kick Japan's ass Artwise

Mojo2k

while i think the new models look much better, i still do not think they look "good"

MoP

JKim3: I don't think it's really a matter of taste, those models in the Western version are pretty damn bad, for a big-budget famous-name game.

Scott Ruggels

Not really JKim3. O can agree that there are lots of skilled and talented artists working in Both Japan and America. But I will also offer up that art education in the U.S. Currently really stinks, mostly because of the cult of Self Expressionism, and that in Japan, they have not given up their traditional education in art. I will say that many American artists have overcome the limitations of art education in the U.S. and have gone onto amazing careersm but at no point can I realisitcally consider this a difference of opinions with the proportions of the face being so off in comparison, then it really is beyond "style"m and into objective measurements and classifications. People that think the following image is of high quality, well, all their taste is in their mouth.
Cover the facem and look at all the proportion errors inthe body and the lopsidedness. It's not a "Style", it'sa large error. Compare it with this:

I don't have to even bring in any asian artist into this discussion to show how weak the art is on Eq2. Thank you... goodnight.

Scott

TomDunne

You're picking Michael Turner as your example of bad American art? I don't agree with your analysis there. He knows what he's doing, and that *is* deliberate style. I don't think what he's doing with his art is any more wrong than what's going on here, unless you want to say Masamune Shirow is equally lacking in fundamentals:



The eyes are way out of proportion, nearly two-thirds of the head, and the mouth so small that the character is lucky she doesn't starve to death. Typical manga facial characteristics, an exaggeration of form rather than artistic ignorance. If you'd gone with someone infamously bad, a guy like Rob Liefeld let's say, I could see your point, but Turner's later Witchblade and Fathom work has been very distinctively his own style. He's consistant with his distortions, which I think shows intent. You might not like the look, but a lot of people aren't fans of huge-eyed school girls with inexplicable cat ears either. That's taste, not technical merit.

JKim3

I guess I shouldn't have deleted the rest of what I said.


I mainly went into a comparison of 2 pieces of good game art from the US and Japan. Yeah, the US EQ stuff is bad, but also the Asian EQ2 stuff, but just looks better. Mainly, what Mojo said.

On a side note, I'd like to make a game where you're a semi-ridged penis, trying to copulate with your own soul to give birth to the concept of bliss. A concept that eludes us so often. It's a metaphor.

rawkstar

scott... yeah i don't think thats bad art, theres plenty of stylized art out there, with lots of exaggerations and so on, doesn't make it bad art, unless its SUPPOSED to be realistic.

pogonip: thats quite an exaggeration there dude, theres plenty of people in the states who draw from a really early age I disagree that VERYONE in Japan is like ken scott or bobo, thats just not true, hell look at the damn asian EQ 2 screenshots, they're slightly better than the US ones, but they don't COMPLETELY BLOW everything away. Seriously the whole Japanese superiority is pretty stupid, they're humans just like us they eat breathe and draw just like us, there are some of them that are good and there are some of them that suck, same with us, there are some differences, and thats why they seem to have tighter art direction than generally is the case in the states.

AND ... its pretty hard to get into the industry here in the states too.

honestly those asian EQ2 models look better than the US ones... but they still aren't all that amazing...

Mojo2k

i agree with ruggles, in my opinion that turner picture is horible, there seems to be a thing where if an artist is famous, and draws stuff badly, but he draws it badly every time the same way, it gets chalked up to style. the same thing happened with Rob Liefeld, completely horrible artist, yet was one of the most famous ones of his era. because he jumped on the "guns bigger than god, and increasingly large breasts" bandwagon early on. also he did a million lil squiggly lines on his images that really did nothing, but made people think it had more "detail"

i think that when something is artists style, it is imediantly obvious that it is style, no one looks at mike mignolas work and think that it is just poorly drawn,. actualy now that i think about it even mignolas proportions are better than that pic that ruggles posted, the human characters that is.

oXYnary

Well technically Matt Groening drawings suck, but its that style that is part of its charm.

Who cares it its technically correct. The point is does it fit what is being drawn?

TomDunne

I don't think Liefeld's work qualified as consistant. He couldn't keep perspective and scale the same panel-to-panel, much less page-to-page. Look at some of Turner's backgrounds sometime, if you want. To me, it looks like he knows the rules but simply doesn't choose to apply them to his stylized (as in 'extremely stretched out') character work.

NoSeRider

I know Liefeld is off the subject matter...bad game art in EQ2, but what the hell were people thinking?

I remember seeing a Rob Liefeld cover of Captain America, where Capt America's back was towards you.....the anatomy showed 2 spines on Cap....separate column for the neck, then a separate column for the back, and you could see a zig zag and a break between the two.

Yet Rob was thought of as a great artist?.....at the time...and Rob Liefeld is still in the business.

I think the problem with game art is the same problem the comic book industry had during the 1990's....game art is being runned by fans rather then artists.

In the 90's, it was hard to distinguish between fan art and comic book art......I'm seeing a parallel.

What I'm insinuating is: Rob Liefeld is a fanboy....what are fanboys in the game industry?

[Edit]And Daz, I already know I can't spell....[/Edit]

pogonip

Mr.Rockstar : You fail to see that in Japan from an early age there is much more emphasis on becoming better and better . Here in the US it's much more casual and we did'nt have much resources until the last few years for helping yourself greatly improve. It's not that we are not as talented it's just more laid back approach to becoming an artist here in the states and thus not as progressive. I don't see why people are so up tight about it . It's like being pissed off cause someone says " Italian Renissence artists were better then french Renissence artists " . I think we know who is the clear winner there but does that make french artists less talented ??

Another thing is that here in the States I really don't think that the BEST of the BEST artists go into video games with few exceptions like Kenneth Scott and some others at various game companies . Maybe that is just starting to happen now and maybe more will go with Next Gen becoming more appealing to those types, but I think it's pretty obvious that the best people work in the Film FX industry and places like Pixar and Dreamworks . Where as in Japan a good portion of the best people work in the Video game industry . I really think if you took some of the best artists from our Film industry and places like Pixar and Dream works and put them in various American game companies you would see a vast improvment in Game art Quality and at the very least better animation . I just think that's being honest .

Ohh and you say that it is hard to get in the game industry here and I agree with you to a point but it is much harder to get into the Film Industry at like ILM or Pixar , and that would be comparing apples to oranges with the Japanese video game industry .

Asthane

pogonip: I think the problem is that you manage to say it in a way that even I disagree with you. Most of your statements sound like the vague assumptions of a fanboy-- no offense. If I'm wrong, please explain why you think all of Japan's "best artists" are in games any more than america's?

poopinmymouth

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I remember the first time I saw a Fathom comic. I loved everything about it. I still enjoy looking at the comics greatly. In short, I love Fathom.

Scott Ruggels

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You might not like the look, but a lot of people aren't fans of huge-eyed school girls with inexplicable cat ears either. That's taste, not technical merit.

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I was purposefully avoiding using Anime as a counter example. I think Turner is crap, because "Bad" isn't a style. I'm intollerant of many examples of heavy stylization... sue me.

Scott

pogonip

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pogonip: I think the problem is that you manage to say it in a way that even I disagree with you.

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I never said I was a good debater I also have knack of putting things the wrong way or some how offending people when the intention was never there !! ..O'well who cares EA is going to buy every company eventually anyways nobody will know who makes what

Ohh and I personally think Micheal Turner has done some very beautiful work but now his stuff is just so influnced by Marc Silvestri who also at one time was a good artist but now looks more like Liefield quality

I loved this Cover from Fathom by Turner

Scott Ruggels

Nice composition, Nice use of color. shoulders too bulbous and lacking structure. Distance between ribcage and top of illiac crest of pelvis too long. Pelvis too deep. Upper arm too short, forearm too long.

Scott

TomDunne

Settle down, Beavis. Just giving my opinion, no need for lawyers. I simply don't think anyone can declare what is or isn't bad without context. What Turner does is poor if measured against technically accurate work, George Bridgman or someone, but it's well within the established, exaggerated style of comic book art. I mean, Jack Kirby was messing with proportion 40 years ago, and there's plenty of other genre precedent. That doesn't make Kirby's work bad or Turner's, just different.

Without context, a lot of great artwork work is thrown in the garbage right out. No one is going to look at Picasso's Nude Descending A Staircase and find that figure more technically 'accurate' than the Fathom cover, but that's not the basis upon which it ought to be evaluated.

Marine

would you consider j. scott campbell's style full of errors? his style is similar to that of turner's but it's a style he chose. the errors are conscious, and constant, there's planning involved in that specific style he chooses.

NoSeRider

Campbell is a Disney freak.
Hughs is awesome.
Turner sucks....it's as simple as that.

And Neal Adams kicks ass and you should kiss his feet.

Really, you guys should look at jeffrey jones, syd mead, and john foster before you start love'n hack storyboard artists.

http://www.jonfoster.com/

Alot of people called john foster....he's the one I'm talk'n about.

[Edit: This is my Neeener Neeener]OH OH OH OH, and by the way Ron Lemen, the art instructor you met at San Francisco Concept Art Convention thinks Most Image Artists suck too.......Ron Lemen likes the masters.[/Edit]

If you really want to fall in love with an Image Artist, fall in love with Travis Trist or Jim Lee

http://www.travischarestgallery.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=gallery