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Does making 3d characters really pays off ?

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Ok lets put it like this.
If I  or anybody else who is unknown make 3d character (human character) which is good looking anatomy, have nice clean topology, nice clothing and modeling,good textures,nice grooming created by haircards etc ready to be rigged and animated something is  telling me that i still would not get any job opportunity or even views and likes if I post it on artstation (or any other portfolio showcase). Probably because there are tons of those good looking and functional 3d  characters on the internet, then why the hell to do this at all? It is a waste of time. It is ungrateful then. You put tons of hours of hard work and you get nothing. 

I can only do it as a hobby for my personal satisfaction, because of course we all love this but after all that hard work I would still ask myself was this worth of my time and effort because I have also real life obligations and responsibilities to do.

Replies

  • oglu
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    oglu ngon master
    If you have fun do it. Take your time until its as good as you want it to be. In my case i try todo one char per year.

    My creations are only for me. Most people dont like creatures. If im on like hunt on Artstation i would do half naked Girls. 😁


  • maxsc
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    maxsc polycounter lvl 4
    Well if you enjoy doing what you do, you are definitly not wasting your time. Wasting your time would be creating thing you are not really into just to get likes and followers.
    I strongly believe that doing art for likes and people's appreciation is the worst way you could go. There are tons of people like that on instagram or facebook, for example, who send you pm asking if you could go on their profile and like their artwork or even share it, etc.. I don't think you can go anywhere good like that. 

    As said above by the other, it comes with time and work. You won't get 10k+ followers and your dream job overnight just beacause you did one good artwork. Start by enjoying what you do, the rest will follow. Don't worry about the likes 😁

  • rollin
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    rollin interpolator
    slosh said:
    Honestly, don't worry about the likes or follows, they will come with time.  If you truly create even just ONE character that is exceptionally well done in every aspect of character art, that WILL open doors I guarantee you. 
    I honestly doubt this.
    In my opinion this is a myth that neglects all the other factors (like location, expectations, timing, luck, etc.) that are at least as important
  • slosh
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    slosh quad damage
    rollin said:
    slosh said:
    Honestly, don't worry about the likes or follows, they will come with time.  If you truly create even just ONE character that is exceptionally well done in every aspect of character art, that WILL open doors I guarantee you. 
    I honestly doubt this.
    In my opinion this is a myth that neglects all the other factors (like location, expectations, timing, luck, etc.) that are at least as important
    Well you're entitled to your opinion but I stand behind mine.  Folio is the most important thing so to me, that's what moves the needle more than anything.
  • rollin
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    rollin interpolator
    slosh said:
    rollin said:
    slosh said:
    Honestly, don't worry about the likes or follows, they will come with time.  If you truly create even just ONE character that is exceptionally well done in every aspect of character art, that WILL open doors I guarantee you. 
    I honestly doubt this.
    In my opinion this is a myth that neglects all the other factors (like location, expectations, timing, luck, etc.) that are at least as important
    Well you're entitled to your opinion but I stand behind mine.  Folio is the most important thing so to me, that's what moves the needle more than anything.
    For sure, I was just nit-picking about the "guarantee"-part :)
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR interpolator
    slosh said:
    rollin said:
    slosh said:
    Honestly, don't worry about the likes or follows, they will come with time.  If you truly create even just ONE character that is exceptionally well done in every aspect of character art, that WILL open doors I guarantee you. 
    I honestly doubt this.
    In my opinion this is a myth that neglects all the other factors (like location, expectations, timing, luck, etc.) that are at least as important
    Well you're entitled to your opinion but I stand behind mine.  Folio is the most important thing so to me, that's what moves the needle more than anything.
    Would the folio matter if you had to recruit an artist from overseas? Can you guarantee the H1B visa through the lottery even if the artist does have a degree and the required salary cap for overseas IT workers stands at 60000 USD minimum? (with a proposed increase to 130,000 USD) 
    In this situation would his industry experience matter more so you could get him in on the O category.
    Or would you outsource work to them instead (seeing as all the popular franchises are doing this to a pretty large extent reducing the amount of work available to talented locals that ought to be considered first.

    In ontario this was rectified by the liberal government offering financial incentives to AAA companies to hire locals, though more visible minorities among locals, around 264 million$ under the table tax deductible grant over a 10 year period)
     https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/ontarios-investment-in-ubisoft-failed-dismally-to-create-jobs-boost-economy/article27613036/ 
    So that's 330,000K per job, being in the most expensive city in Canada, guess how much new hires got?

    That said I doubt the government cared about candidate porfolios in this case lol. And you'd be surprised how much you can skim off the top, its so well known but no ones coming forward publicly since they're all terrified of losing their jobs.

    Several of the teachers from these companies teach at the schools, isn't that an environment ripe for sycophancy?

    In my experience sure in general the portfolio matters, but who you know seems to matter a whole lot more. Its kinda like what they think of you and your portfolio, so no particular gold standard really. 
    Also soft skills, can work under pressure, totally out the door for student hires that know someone. Its senseless.

    With companies focusing on poaching seniors, its like paddle ball. This could be rectified if working conditions improved so people stay put and any funding through government tax incentives goes to create new jobs.

    Realistically though it makes sense when you consider that a budget and bottomline matter a lot more. Look how much they spend on marketing in comparison.

    Like sure portfolio matters to leads and art directors, but usually not to HR and accounting.

  • Meloncov
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    Meloncov greentooth
    NikhilR said:
    Would the folio matter if you had to recruit an artist from overseas? Can you guarantee the H1B visa through the lottery even if the artist does have a degree and the required salary cap for overseas IT workers stands at 60000 USD minimum? (with a proposed increase to 130,000 USD) 


    Yeah, portfolio generally matters far more than location if you're within the country. Visa sponsorship is a whole 'nother animal.
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR interpolator
    Meloncov said:
    NikhilR said:
    Would the folio matter if you had to recruit an artist from overseas? Can you guarantee the H1B visa through the lottery even if the artist does have a degree and the required salary cap for overseas IT workers stands at 60000 USD minimum? (with a proposed increase to 130,000 USD) 


    Yeah, portfolio generally matters far more than location if you're within the country. Visa sponsorship is a whole 'nother animal.
    But if the portfolio was that important shouldn't the visa aspect not matter? Why not move an entire company to where the top tier artists are?
  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    @NikhilR , I remember when I was in teh army, every so often some big important person would be leaving and have a hail farewell ceremony. We all gotta go stand in the heat for three hours while some guys you never heard of talk about themselves and brag about all the wonderful shit they did for you.

    There was this one command sergeant major (big important guy) who literally rambled incoherently for three fucking hours. Just straight Trumpian dotardian nonsense. I remember thinking, "how the hell is this guy in such an important position? he's completely fucking nuts and everybody knows it."

    Of course, the guys daddy was a sergeant major. And his daddy, and so on. And the battalion commander? You think he went to west point because he was just real smart? Hell no, came from family with connections.

    You'd never get any of these guys to admit how they got to where they were though. It goes against the myth. People who've got it made are the ones who will least of all admit that meritocracy is a fantasy, because it goes directly against their ego. Most of them don't even know it. You'd have a heck of a time explaining it even if they were open minded enogh to hear it.

    I spent a fall packing moose for a big game hunting outfit. Big game hunters is usually big oil guys. Big Texas sized egos. Of course they are all just soft-bodied second-generation wealth inheritance brats. Never worked a day in their life. But they all truly believe they are hard-charging American tough-guy entrepreneurs who've earned every damn dime they've got. 

    I fucking hated listening to thhose guys and being friendly with them. but I played along and got some big-ass tips. Better than if I tried to educate them and got my ass fired, right?

    But whatever man. I mean even if you got them to admit that it's all BS and like every other thing thats not dead today they are there simply because of circumstance, so what? Not like suddenly you gonna earn free food for life. You still gotta do your work. 

    Like, if you can see through the b.s., that gives you advantage somebody who buys into the game might not have. So use it. Avoid the game altogether, ya know. There's more than one way to make living as an artist.

    But certainly if you wanna go the straight route you should keep the cards close to the chest. Then you can get to position where you have real influence and can impact greater change by setting example through leadership. Status counts for more than ideas so it's easier to impress your ideas and have them be considered if you gain the status first.

    Always gotta remember, we ain't enlightened beings. We monkeys that can talk. Monkey law is still in effect.
  • slosh
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    slosh quad damage
    NikhilR said:
    Meloncov said:
    NikhilR said:
    Would the folio matter if you had to recruit an artist from overseas? Can you guarantee the H1B visa through the lottery even if the artist does have a degree and the required salary cap for overseas IT workers stands at 60000 USD minimum? (with a proposed increase to 130,000 USD) 


    Yeah, portfolio generally matters far more than location if you're within the country. Visa sponsorship is a whole 'nother animal.
    But if the portfolio was that important shouldn't the visa aspect not matter? Why not move an entire company to where the top tier artists are?
    I don't see how one has to do with the other.  You decide if someone is worthy via many things but folio is the most important.  If that person is overseas, you think about visa after you rate their folio.  So, no matter what, visa is secondary.  And, while it's not about talent, more studios are being opened abroad.  But it has more to do with cheaper cost then talent.  I'm failing to see how your argument relates.  Anyone saying connections are vital are absolutely correct as well.  But in most cases, even if you "know" someone, if they don't bring a AAA folio, it's not happening.  
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR interpolator
    slosh said:
    NikhilR said:
    Meloncov said:
    NikhilR said:
    Would the folio matter if you had to recruit an artist from overseas? Can you guarantee the H1B visa through the lottery even if the artist does have a degree and the required salary cap for overseas IT workers stands at 60000 USD minimum? (with a proposed increase to 130,000 USD) 


    Yeah, portfolio generally matters far more than location if you're within the country. Visa sponsorship is a whole 'nother animal.
    But if the portfolio was that important shouldn't the visa aspect not matter? Why not move an entire company to where the top tier artists are?
    I don't see how one has to do with the other.  You decide if someone is worthy via many things but folio is the most important.  If that person is overseas, you think about visa after you rate their folio.  So, no matter what, visa is secondary.  And, while it's not about talent, more studios are being opened abroad.  But it has more to do with cheaper cost then talent.  I'm failing to see how your argument relates.  Anyone saying connections are vital are absolutely correct as well.  But in most cases, even if you "know" someone, if they don't bring a AAA folio, it's not happening.  
    But that's the problem, I really am not seeing AAA folio's of the quality that is stressed here correlating to the sort of people actually hired or the work actually being done in the studios. 
    Like sure in some of the more specialized studios clearly they need that level of talent, but its not the only consideration.
    Like there's talent, experience and who you know, but the work at the end in the studio doesn't really need all three so comparing the lot in a bunch seems more influenced by budget and how much time you have to consider potential hires.
    There's way too many variables.

    Its great to encourage artists to excel regardless, but I'm seeing this more as a result of there being too many applicants, then there actually being many good applicants, 

    In my experience, my folio is considered good (atleast that's what they say and it seems adequate to them) but my location and visa makes being hired an issue. But I don't know the latter until after they've compared me to someone else locally. 

    Which means that while my portfolio is important, and its good that they appreciate it, it really does seem that at the end its their budget and requirement with the least amount of complexity in the hiring process that has more influence on who they eventually go with.
    There is also very little transparency in the entire process, seems more a shot in the dark for the most part.

    And subject matter is another factor with regards to how the audience reacts, how much hype that generates, if that leads you to being featured and have a company considering you because of it, regardless of whether this extra embellishment has anything to do with the work actually being done in studio which is all behind closed doors in total secrecy.

    Kinda like wanting to associate with someone who's having his 5 mins of fame, even if the end output is the same as someone not readlly noticed or too difficult to recruit because of a visa issue.
    But then again this is the entertainment industry, so not really surprising for the most part.

  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    You can't take what somebody says at face value though.

    Somebody might politely say, "yeah the work is good, but unfortunately we don't have means to fly you" or whatever. But really they just don't wanna say, "we don't think your work is good enough."

    Like with my game, some reviews say, "yeah its great game I love it." but they only played an hour. The ones who played 40 hours, doesn't matter what they say. I know they enjoyed it. So the words mean little. The actions we can measure are whats important.

    It's unfortunate, but especially in polite, creative society I think people are timid about being direct.

    Not saying that's the case, but it could be.
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR interpolator
    You can't take what somebody says at face value though.

    Somebody might politely say, "yeah the work is good, but unfortunately we don't have means to fly you" or whatever. But really they just don't wanna say, "we don't think your work is good enough."

    Like with my game, some reviews say, "yeah its great game I love it." but they only played an hour. The ones who played 40 hours, doesn't matter what they say. I know they enjoyed it. So the words mean little. The actions we can measure are whats important.

    It's unfortunate, but especially in polite, creative society I think people are timid about being direct.

    Not saying that's the case, but it could be.
    In cases concerning my portfolio, its them considering it first, then calling me in for an in person interview after phone interview.
    The problem with this process is the absolutely zero transparency or credibility, or professionalism for that matter in several cases. Though they are likely to treat you better if you are sought after like most entertainment industry corporate professions. (likely screw you over later anyway)

    Most opportunities available are so touch and go, that many times even they don't know if the position they're interviewing for actually exists. 

    Its simple corporate mechanics at work, the poor management kind which is reflected all across glassdoor for all to see.

    And usually criticism after interview about the person or portfolio isn't given because of legal reasons. I do however find artists to be more receptive but eventually its management that makes the final decisions usually because of budget.

    For instance if a person with a great portfolio and little industry experience were going up against a senior with a great portfolio and a lot of industry experience, is it fair to consider one against the other.
    In some ways possibly, given what we actually do on the job can be done to the same standard by both.

    Though to HR, the latter seems like a safer bet, especially if they can be undercut, and many sadly have to.
    If passion blinds you, its easy to take advantage of you. Does that affect your happiness, probably not.
    But it does affect the market in a major way.

    Most times if my portfolio has been looked at, it is because I knew someone, or I applied at the right time. 
    So yes portfolio is important, but that importance is only valid if they actually see it, and if you don't know anyone inside a studio in a competitive market, or have done something to pull in the crowds to validate your work, its unlikely your portfolio will ever been seen regardless of how good you might be for the job.

    Like there's an entire thread about how sycophancy in the industry can get you work, and while everyone that admits to that is certain about their ability, how much of it is actually used in the workplace and is it only for the purpose of doing the work.

    Consider Vitaly Bulgarov joining Guru Animation to work on paw patrol. Seems mad absurd, but that wee bit of punch of a known famous face can help with marketing, which is what the majority of the budget goes towards.

    Not so say that some studios can't certainly use such talent, but consider how much is outsourced because it is cheaper. How can anyone believe that portfolio is king in the grand scheme of things especially in AAA?

    If they were that superb at their work, I wouldn't have a day job because there would be nothing to do quality assurance on. Every artist hired seemingly god tier would create superb work from the get go totally ready to ship with no quality assurance necessary.

    But the stuff I see, good god man and this is from the top studios that supposedly hire top of the line artists. Why then am I doing QA on what looks like student work?
    imagined if I judged them with the logic of you are only as good as your worst piece. I don't think a single company would be worth working for.







  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    I read somewhere that what defines a clique is a group of people who all choose to believe the same lies.

    I dunno, maybe i just made that up. But it seems true.

    In any case, if you can't suffer anything less than the cold hard truth, you really are in the special group of people who must do things their own way. 

    If that's true, then there is no time to not be working! Very easy for a lone wolf to starve.

  • slosh
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    slosh quad damage
    NikhilR, you lost me.  I don't really understand where you are going with ur argument.  Your calling work done by top Srs at AAA companies student level work?  Anyways, I just know how I view candidates coming in for jobs at companies that I have worked at.  Folio always comes first.  If the folio is solid, then connections, location, culture fit, and other things come into play.
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR interpolator
    slosh said:
    NikhilR, you lost me.  I don't really understand where you are going with ur argument.  Your calling work done by top Srs at AAA companies student level work?  Anyways, I just know how I view candidates coming in for jobs at companies that I have worked at.  Folio always comes first.  If the folio is solid, then connections, location, culture fit, and other things come into play.
    Well I work in QA at 3rd party and the models that come in for us to verify for art passes look well like student work, full of student level mistakes which we bug and send back to fix. Everything from stretched textures to deformation issues, to flipped normals, proportioning issues, missing body parts.etc 

    Its like there is no competency client side, for example the model has a weird looking head and the hair is wrong and on backwards, even the eyes are missing, but this was sent to us to verify for bugs. Are they blind?
    The likely reason behind this particular example was that the hair, eyes were outsourced and somewhere mismanaged to the point that this abomination was dropped on our doorstep. 

    I'd love to reveal what the game is but can't owing to NDA but its interesting seeing the reality what actually constitutes an approval and just how much is allowed through (remember mass effect andromeda?)

    It makes me wonder if the work was done by seniors, I mean it very likely is and I'm sure they are competent at a personal level, but what I'm getting at is does quality of portfolios actually matter for junior applicants where they need to be senior level

    I mean given the way the industry works, even the best possible quality is squandered by mismanagement to get the product to market as fast as possible, so what exactly is being accomplished here?

    There seems to be a serious disconnect between the skills that are apparently sought after and the actual skills that give competency and professionalism such as the ability to multitask and manage large volumes of work. 

    In that sense I am hoping its mismanagement, even the environment work is atrocious, floating grass, water textures placed backwards, holes everywhere.
     And the deadlines are downright nuts purely to drive hype and income which is likely why we get this sort of stuff to bug test. Probably cheaper for them just to toss it to us like rubbish thrown at 3rd world countries for recycling.

    Maybe its just the nature of the franchise, but if money and greed isn't the driver of this madness I don't know what is. Its all style no substance.

    And I'd like to believe that about folio's leading to a lot else, and I'm sure some companies truly stand by those standards, but it certainly isn't the general rule and not the only factor under consideration certainly when it comes to vetting a potential hire.

    I verified this assertion by checking through linkedin employee lists of many of the companies here in Montreal and could not find any consistency in portfolio quality across candidates.

    Like I could not say for certain that all of them had hit a particular bar, sure they might have had pieces that were great, but they clearly did not follow any specific guidelines for instance,

    1. Many had portfolio's with only sculpts and no low poly work
    2. Several had no models rendered in game engine
    3. lot of unfinished pieces across their portfolios

    What I did find in common though were.

    1. They all graduated from the same school that has teachers that come from companies where they acquire internships

    2. Some were selected because of group portfolio projects where not every artist had the same skill level, this made me wonder whether it was more prudent to make a game as a portfolio piece rather than a static well posed character.

    3. It was very rare that a candidate actually tailored their portfolio to what a company actually did. 

    4. Most times it was what was popular and trending that seemed to resonate with art leads/ prior industry experience and games published that were more vital to HR/management. In this light a junior was no match for a senior with published titles willing to take a pay cut.

    The usual response I've had to all this is that I don't know the whole story and maybe there were other aspects that showed potential. And that's fair, but the lack on transparency in what exactly constitutes a good portfolio and whether the work in it is actually relevant to the job their given is pretty startling. 

    Like I'd keep encourage artists to do great work and push themselves but to say that this would lead to all that, I'm finding that difficult to believe given what I have seen.
    So does making 3D characters pay off in the end? Depends on what the end is, for most people here its probably a job in AAA making 3D characters which clearly isn't guaranteed given the way the industry operates.

  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    You the one there so you know best, but is it possible you getting buggy characters because they in early prototyping?

    That aside, I add a little thing to your rant.

    So awhile back I did the rookies competition thing. Looked like a good idea. Good mission statement they have.

    Well I made my character which was good, not great, but nobody could say it didn't display a robust work ethic, ability to manage complex work, and tackle something out of the ordinary. So it definitely had some merit.

    Anyway, I even paid 50 bucks to get a judges review of it, and while they did provide a 20 minute long video in which they thoroughly pointed out the models shortcomings, it was clear the guy either didn't do his homework to knwo that this was a game character or he didn't knwo the differences between game characters and cinema.

    In the end, I earned a D from them, which I felt was fine because I had given myself a C. But what made me think, "well this is a load of shit" is when I saw the winners in my category. Almost none of them were game characters at all!

    Some of them were made by scanned data (from dudes working at AAA studios, going directly against the guidelines), others had UDIMS and specifically stated in the project showcase that they were experimenting with cinema characters... I did a little more poking and what you realize is, none of the winners is just random dudes who followed guidelines and submitted work anonymously. It's all people who know each other. Lots of connections. So the thing isn't really an open-to-the-public competition as it is made out to be, but more a chance for people in the in-crowd to help eachother out with gaining visibility.

    Which is fine, I guess, but the facade is a bit irksome.

    All I really gotta say is, there is one tell-tale clue that should inform you of everything you need to know about the industry. They always looking for students. Young people fresh out of college.

    Why? I'm making a game. Last thing I wanna work with is lazy kid who doesn't have any experience problem solving or working professionally. Talent isn't enough. So why then? I cannot think of any ethical answer to that question.
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR interpolator
    I had assumed it was prototyping, but the way it works client side is that because of deadlines (I'm guessing) the artists that work in engine, never really get to see what things look like in game because that would delay a build since everyone is in such a mad rush.

    So this is a finished asset for the time being, not properly done but approved at some level then sent to us to bug and fail so it goes back for iteration.

    Who knows maybe if they had more time, they would work better and we would have no job, then again we don't go developer side so no idea what the heck is going on there.
    It also means that the emphasis here isn't "one really good quality piece." rather finish to some level what you're assigned because it may work later on if someone else is assigned to it. 
    So I guess that comes down to testing how people work in teams, considering what I'm seeing it really isn't working out too great.

    Ideally given the top tier nature of the god level game artist, shouldn't their work not require any QA whatsover since their so damned great at what they do?
    Reality is that like all human beings they can make mistakes, many more so then others, but here we have this trend of reject because one thing is wrong so the person must be useless, or rather that's what the lot of us seem to want to assume since a company can do no wrong.

    Its likely just an ego thing, but this does nothing to stop mismanagement and abuse.
    Maybe we should have a black list for companies depending on how much their games suck bug wise. 

    Also the general trend I noticed from most people in the industry is, "I'm willing to deal with this since I have no choice, maybe it will lead to something better." Its really is painful to see, but they do seem to be oddly happy with their circumstances.
    Kind of like how prisoners get institutionalized.
  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    Yeah the level of perfection demanded versus what you actually doing versus what you getting paid -- and never mind benefits and general quality of life -- doesn't look like something I'd be interested in.

    But if you go to any industry ever you gonna discover the same shit. I think all things human trend towards entropy, especially in capitalist society which favors psychopathic traits for leadership.

    You know whats actually a pretty good deal? Making games and selling them yourself. Rewarding work, be your own boss, achieve creative satisfaction, keep most the money you earn.

  • focus_method
    1. you learn how to fix pipes you get a job as a plumber and you make a living out of it.
    2. you learn how to lay bricks you get a job as a bricklayer and you make a living out of it.
    3. you learn how to code and you get a job as a developer and you make a living out of it.
    4. you learn how printing machines work, learn DTP, Ps,illustrator,indesign and you get a job in printing company and make a living out of it.
    5. you learn how to sale and you get a job as a salesman and make a living out of it
    6. you learn how to weld you get a job as a welder and make a living out of it.
    7. you learn how to bake and you get a job as a baker in bakery and you make a living out of it.
    8. you learn to operate on CNC machines and you get a job as a CNC operator and you make a living out of it.
    9. you learn how to work with wood and carpentry you get a job as a carpenter and make a living out ot it

    10. you spend months and years (because it's a passion and love) to learn sculpting /modeling 3d characters, texturing,baking,shading,rendering,clothing in MD and you create a character, post it on the internet and you get NOTHING! No job, no carrier , no income (oh sorry,you get actually 3 likes and 15 views on artstation)


    then your consciousness ask you - who is fool here ?
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi insane polycounter
    You ever thought about doing both?  A job that pays a living, and making character art?

    Comedians do that.

    Post some art.  I have yet to see you finish anything.
  • rollin
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    rollin interpolator
    1. you learn how to fix pipes you get a job as a plumber and you make a living out of it.
    2. you learn how to lay bricks you get a job as a bricklayer and you make a living out of it.
    3. you learn how to code and you get a job as a developer and you make a living out of it.
    4. you learn how printing machines work, learn DTP, Ps,illustrator,indesign and you get a job in printing company and make a living out of it.
    5. you learn how to sale and you get a job as a salesman and make a living out of it
    6. you learn how to weld you get a job as a welder and make a living out of it.
    7. you learn how to bake and you get a job as a baker in bakery and you make a living out of it.
    8. you learn to operate on CNC machines and you get a job as a CNC operator and you make a living out of it.
    9. you learn how to work with wood and carpentry you get a job as a carpenter and make a living out ot it

    10. you spend months and years (because it's a passion and love) to learn sculpting /modeling 3d characters, texturing,baking,shading,rendering,clothing in MD and you create a character, post it on the internet and you get NOTHING! No job, no carrier , no income (oh sorry,you get actually 3 likes and 15 views on artstation)


    then your consciousness ask you - who is fool here ?
    Maybe this is bc nobody needs a game artist (relatively speaking)
  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    Yeah and every kid in the world isn't fighting to be a plumber... But AAA character artist isn't the only way to make living from game art.

    What I don't get... tons of artist spend most their time doing nothing but sexy models, why not just go one degree further and make porn? It sells. It really sells! You already doing it anyway, and if you don't feel comfy just sell it anonymously with different name. I mean that's the easiest thing to do.

    But if you don't want you roommate to see you sculpting titties all day there is still big area between what can be sold to an audience and what can be sold to AAA recruiter.

  • mustacheman
    oh jeez, not this again ...

    It's not that complicated.

    low-tier artists need to be in the area and need to know people
    med-tier artists send out applications and will be given art tests and interviews based on their folios
    top-tier artists are contacted by recruiters from around the world

    I'm sorry, this is how it goes.
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR interpolator
    oh jeez, not this again ...

    It's not that complicated.

    low-tier artists need to be in the area and need to know people
    med-tier artists send out applications and will be given art tests and interviews based on their folios
    top-tier artists are contacted by recruiters from around the world

    I'm sorry, this is how it goes.
    If only it was that straightforward, lol.
     All this shows is a total lack of understanding of the market which plays a massive role in if this is actually the case. And more importantly how much game industry experience and published titles add to what is considered a good portfolio.

    Personally I've never understood the tier system, or if there even is one, or rather something that artists impose upon themselves because of low self esteem and social ineptness which is very prevalent in videogames. That and a lack of a university education in several cases with limited life experience and negotiation skills.
    Add the capitalists free market system where employers have all the power and you have an environment ripe for abuse.

    Like they advertise for rockstars, ninja samurai, but I see more people with social anxiety and mental health issues in this one industry than others with much higher responsibility and stress level such as medicine and nursing.

    What lacks in our industry is adequate redressal and fair compensation, which most of the artists justify saying well that's how the market is in capitalism, pretty cowardly if you ask me but is it really that surprising given that so many consider these to be dream jobs?
    Consider how many of us hide behind anonymous identities so as not to affect our chances of being hired in an industry ready to screw you over for having an opinion. 
    A lot of this anxiety stems from the type of crowd and culture of fear that currently exists. It isn't just perpetuated by studios, we all have a role to play in fomenting this.

     The way the corporate world works sure, someone with more experience is considered a safer bet, but does that necessarily mean his skills are required from the perspective of work actually done in a studio? Or is studio work more about collaborative skills that would benefit from hiring from more diverse backgrounds.
    The sad thing is that because there is zero transparency, one can only keep speculating and more often than not the blame falls on the artist for taking crap.

    I work in QA, and if the crap I receive from these dream companies to bug test is what is top tier artist quality, I can only imagine that there is something seriously wrong with industry hiring practices and studio management.
     That is what invalidates the whole aspect of being sought after and creates abominations like Mass Effect Andromeda.
     HR and art leads/directors are totally disconnected from what would actually work best given the circumstances.

      I think regardless of your creative potential, the main factor that decides who's hired is budget and workload.
    Consider all the seniors being laid off, having to take pay cuts and consider internship positions because their job has zero protection which is what leads to seniors resigning their positions to join competitors.
     And more often than not desperately trying to protect their position by creating standards that clearly aren't reflected in the games they actually make.

     In an industry so volatile, its no wonder hiring practices are so damn sketchy. Its very asinine to just drop artists in "tiers" shooting ourselves in the foot for what is in reality a serious problem in corporate management.

    I mean if this is how it goes, its the saddest existence I've ever seen for creative people.

    The only top tier I can see is artists who push themselves solely for the perfection of their craft, not for some game industry dream job. They don't need to compete since they've used all their creative potential to live a full life, not simply languishing as a corporate puppet.
  • mustacheman
    so much bitterness

    to be able to build games that potentially millions of people enjoy is just the best thing ever IMHO.
    I have been offered lead positions with no questions asked at Ubisoft and CD PR. If I wasn't otherwise engaged I'm sure CD PR would have been an absolute blast. Maybe sometime in the future.

    ..... will go back to making art now.
    cheers
  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    NikhilR said:

    Consider how many of us hide behind anonymous identities so as not to affect our chances of being hired in an industry ready to screw you over for having an opinion.


    Yeah I think this is indicative of toxic culture. Well, maybe not toxic culture, but certainly an unhealthy one. If you can't stamp your name on what you are doing and saying for fear of professional reprisal, well just what the hell kind of nanny-ass environment is that? I mean do you believe in what you doing or not?  I thought artistic sorts would be more independent minded. I am sure many are, but the reality is if you trying to make a living you gotta do what you gotta do.

    But if what you gotta do seems counter to all good reason and instinct, that's when you know shits gotta change. And if you do care about anything beyond getting dinner, then aren't you compelled to do something? 

    Well, whatever. I spent enough years bleeding for other people and I'd personally rather just avoid a bad situation then try to fix it. Still I like to gripe about things but really it's not my crusade.

    I think it's good to speak out for what you believe but you shouldn't waste too much energy on it @nikhilR. At leat not yet. Even if everything you say is the purest truth and painfully obvious, like I already said it won't mean much without status.

    If you make a few games and maybe a hit, then a lot more people will care what you have to say.
  • mustacheman

    If you make a few games and maybe a hit, then a lot more people will care what you have to say.

    ... and you will also change your view along the way lol ;)
  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter

    yeah for sure. After publishing my first game, i gained much better understanding of the realities of selling games.

    But it also made me agree more with many of the points Nikhil makes. I think the entire make up of AAA business is flat out backwards. It's a thing that started small and grew into something big and ugly, and I think a thoughtful reassessment is going to be necessary to build a better system.

    In general, i think the fast-food business model is junk. It dehumanizes people and favors automatons. So its no brainer that humans will be replaced by AI eventually. It places profits above all else, which is fantastically stupid since profits have no correlation with human well-being.

    I think the future is to forego specialist in favor or well-balanced, well-rounded generalist who can see the big picture. They'll be paid well and have high responsibility. Instead of sacrificing infantry to the machine gun nest, small teams of elite guys who can do everything will accomplish the mission with dramatically more efficiency. Nobody will want to hire a 20 year old with talent in doing one small task. They'll want the 40 year old who has breadth of experience and can see beyond their nose.

    This means fewer people will gain a much higher degree of job satisfaction, while a larger portion of people are put out of work. But that's the problem with overpopulation. And the problem with ever-increasing technology. We keep make more humans, and keep making less work for ourselves to do. This is why when I see people complain about unwrapping UV's and wnating auto-technology to do it for them, I think, "there's an idiot. They'll sell their livelihood for convenience."

    Things will hit critical mass at some point.
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR interpolator
    I think the videogame industry compares well to the tobacco industry in many ways.
    Not a good thing.
       Give then amount blown on marketing games as opposed to developing them, there needs to be some balance to make conditions more favourable.
  • pior
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    pior high dynamic range
    I have no idea what this thread is about, but to those wondering : 

    To get a job crafting 3d hero characters (on-site at a studio or through freelancing/art asset houses), what one needs to do is to be able to hit either the Dota2/OW/Fortnite look, or a more "idealized gritty realism" look (The Division, Destiny2, and so on). It may sound like an oversimplification but I do believe that most game art falls into either or these two categories now, with even some overlap when it comes to intricate armor and gear (for instance a Diablo style game would now fall somewhere inbetween. Same for something like Borderlands).

    Either that ... or going full-on niche (flat colored lowpoly) to secure a spot at an indie studio.

    Practically speaking I would say that in order to get hire-able it would take about 2 years of regular practice for a barebones tech skillset (as in, pushing buttons in 3d programs : lowpoly, highpoly, UVs, baking, texturing), with an added edge to those who can do basic skin weighting and engine export (so add 6 months to that). But this needs to be on top of a solid art background (anatomy, proportions, and so on), so let's say 5 years or so in parallel. Tackling things the other way around (tech first and trying to figure the art later or on top) leads to massive blind spots imho.

    The obvious irony being that after developping some rather high level art/artisan skills, one may not necessarily enjoy being a cog in the machine and being told what to do by the market. This is a given in any art-related job, game or otherwise ; but I think the very nature of game characters now taking months to make and becoming a currency (skins) rather than just days/week for older handpainted content is a very real consideration to keep in mind getting in, since the satisfaction of being able to crank out cool art content in a short time is now mostly gone. Which circles back to the appeal of hitting a niche (flat colorful indie stuff) as opposed to mainstream (Zeedbrushed skins).

    Also, the Warframe Workshop seems like a very healthy place to leverage for someone to hone their game art and tech skills, and gives access (albeit indirectly) to professionals reviewing your art and potentially giving constructive feedback. Very cool stuff.
  • slosh
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    slosh quad damage
    Good thoughts Pior!
  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    How long do styles stick around though? I mean like, when you guys started out was the styles you went after still around today? I know the tech has changed a lot, but lets say today is day one for me and I wanna be a character artist real bad. And I'm just average so you could expect 6 years for me to get good. Is it still gonna be Overwatch then? I mean nobody can know of course but based on your experience would you count on that?

    Or maybe it don't really matter cause if you get art you get it and styles won't change that dramatically right?



  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR interpolator
    so much bitterness

    to be able to build games that potentially millions of people enjoy is just the best thing ever IMHO.
    I have been offered lead positions with no questions asked at Ubisoft and CD PR. If I wasn't otherwise engaged I'm sure CD PR would have been an absolute blast. Maybe sometime in the future.

    ..... will go back to making art now.
    cheers

    Thanks for judging me while hiding behind your anonymity. Its great that you put yourself first before everyone else. Though probably not the best attitude for a lead, don't you think? 
    Why don't you come out of the woodwork, so its more transparent to the apparently low and mid tier artists languishing beneath your god given talent? 

  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    @pior thanks, great answer. Very insightful.

    Not comparing my game to your examples by any stretch, but just due to constraints we also chose to do board game figurines versus animated characters. But people really enjoyed that and it certainly worked to our benefit. So I think having some production constraints can be very powerful sometimes.
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR interpolator
    @pior thanks, great answer. Very insightful.

    Not comparing my game to your examples by any stretch, but just due to constraints we also chose to do board game figurines versus animated characters. But people really enjoyed that and it certainly worked to our benefit. So I think having some production constraints can be very powerful sometimes.
    I always thought it was a very smart move. 
  • seigearts
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    seigearts triangle
    pior said:
    I have no idea what this thread is about, but to those wondering : 

    To get a job crafting 3d hero characters (on-site at a studio or through freelancing/art asset houses), what one needs to do is to be able to hit either the Dota2/OW/Fortnite look, or a more "idealized gritty realism" look (The Division, Destiny2, and so on). It may sound like an oversimplification but I do believe that most game art falls into either or these two categories now, with even some overlap when it comes to intricate armor and gear (for instance a Diablo style game would now fall somewhere inbetween. Same for something like Borderlands).

    Either that ... or going full-on niche (flat colored lowpoly) to secure a spot at an indie studio.

    Practically speaking I would say that in order to get hire-able it would take about 2 years of regular practice for a barebones tech skillset (as in, pushing buttons in 3d programs : lowpoly, highpoly, UVs, baking, texturing), with an added edge to those who can do basic skin weighting and engine export (so add 6 months to that). But this needs to be on top of a solid art background (anatomy, proportions, and so on), so let's say 5 years or so in parallel. Tackling things the other way around (tech first and trying to figure the art later or on top) leads to massive blind spots imho.

    The obvious irony being that after developping some rather high level art/artisan skills, one may not necessarily enjoy being a cog in the machine and being told what to do by the market. This is a given in any art-related job, game or otherwise ; but I think the very nature of game characters now taking months to make and becoming a currency (skins) rather than just days/week for older handpainted content is a very real consideration to keep in mind getting in, since the satisfaction of being able to crank out cool art content in a short time is now mostly gone. Which circles back to the appeal of hitting a niche (flat colorful indie stuff) as opposed to mainstream (Zeedbrushed skins).

    Also, the Warframe Workshop seems like a very healthy place to leverage for someone to hone their game art and tech skills and gives access (albeit indirectly) to professionals reviewing your art and potentially giving constructive feedback. Very cool stuff.
    That was some real nice advice...... I myself tried to learn tech stuff first when i started in 3D around 6 months, although I got on track early on and am currently learning foundational art skills and things much much more sense now.
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR interpolator
    poopipe said:
    NikhilR said:
    so much bitterness

    to be able to build games that potentially millions of people enjoy is just the best thing ever IMHO.
    I have been offered lead positions with no questions asked at Ubisoft and CD PR. If I wasn't otherwise engaged I'm sure CD PR would have been an absolute blast. Maybe sometime in the future.

    ..... will go back to making art now.
    cheers

    Thanks for judging me while hiding behind your anonymity. Its great that you put yourself first before everyone else. Though probably not the best attitude for a lead, don't you think? 
    Why don't you come out of the woodwork, so its more transparent to the apparently low and mid tier artists languishing beneath your god given talent? 


    Stop and think for a bit. 

    There are many people reading your posts who work in the industry you seem hell bent of berating. 
    These people have worked hard to get where they are. Nobody handed them anything on a plate, they've made sacrifices, they've relocated, they've probably had their health suffer cos they stayed up late getting good enough to break into what is an incredibly competitive market.

    It could just be misinterpretation but your posts over recent months seem to imply that the industry is rife with nepotism and corruption - the implication of this is that those with the jobs dont deserve them  or haven't got them based on merit. this isn't going to go down well with anyone - let alone someone who might have rolled in at 10pm after a 12 hour work day spent polishing something up so you as a consumer can enjoy it more. 

    Edit: make that 14,  clearly the hours are getting to me
    Well that makes two of us. Its just that I chose not to hide behind the anonymity of the internet.

    I admire what we do for consumers. It would be good if the companies we worked for felt the same way.

    I'm really just going by what I've seen. Its a fact that so many of us are just trying to make a living, and its a sad situation when you think about it.
    I'm not berating the industry, rather just saying it how it is, since most places we only hear of the glamorous side and how despite all the bs because of messed up corporate practices we ought to be proud of how far we've come.

    I hope you were well compensated for 14 straight hours, a consumer that admires the artist behind the work likely would not want to see you have endure that. 

    Being in 3rd party QA, I can tell you that several of the companies we service are putting their employees through the same thing, I can't imagine doing that to someone especially if I valued their art. 
    Its so bad that we've been told not to offer suggestions since they get pissed off given how much they're going through.

    Not being able to anticipate unforeseen issues is one thing, but imagine if the companies focused on appeasing smaller markets and reduced their overheads, moving their marketing investment towards artists/developers instead, putting them at the forefront of the games they make, and prioritising them over profits.

    I agree merit is important, though its interpretation can be extremely fluid in a competitive market that is more predicated on making wealth than creating art in several cases, especially in AAA.

    What's needed is more transparency so we don't all have to hide behind our opinions. And a change in the mindset that you are only good at your art when you get into a dream company. The best artists have never let that become their motivation when they approached their creativity. 

    That is the message that I'm trying to get across when I look at what makes becoming a character artist worth it.
    Needs to be more than just the job, and newcomers really need to know the difference between what it takes and what the industry has to offer. 
     
  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    Are you working 14+ hour days because you want to? Or because somebody above you has made conditions so that you can't not work that many hours?

    That's the thing. I mean I work 12+ hours almost every day and rarely take weekends off, but that's on my own stuff. That's my passion. No way in hell I am selling that to somebody who is going to take unfair cut and certainly not pay me overtime for every minute over an eight hour day. Why though? Do I just hate other people? No, because I know it's a dead end. Abusive employers are exactly like drug addicts. Don't enable them. They'll take and take and take and take... all for squat.


    I think, putting the complexities of the industries specific issues aside, what Nikhil is getting at is that too much is taken and not enough given. And a lot of industry vets, especially those who are selling tutelage or mentorship to fresh meat coming in, either don't see this or choose not to acknowledge it. Of course if you trying to teach newbies what it takes to get into the industry, why would you say, "but actually being in the industry is extremely difficulty, job security is non-existent, and majority of people burn out with health issues before a decade."

    But somebody needs to say it!

    I realize the industry is largely project based and there are certain market realities that make the game of selling games an uncertain business, but I think the effort it takes to out-compete other artist probably makes many people intentionally blind to the fact that most of these dream jobs are a raw deal.

    I mean if you got the passion, that's worth way more than any corporation is going to compensate you for. If you think $100k salary is "made it" you are severely undervaluing yourself.

    Then again, I think there is different types. Some are real artsy types who have a need for expression. To tell stories or whatever. Then there is kids who love WoW and their lifes passion is to make characters in WoW. I don't think the first set of people are going to enjoy assembly line work in a game factory like Ubisoft or w/e. But if just playing a role in the next big blockbuster you love is enough to make you happy, that's cool. But it's a real shitty thing to exploit the passion of people like that, in demanding overtime without overtime compensation. It's also destructive and short-sighted.

    Most important thing for the young person starting a career is not to only focus on getting in. There must be an exit plan. If you go in head first without clear exit plan, you're a fool and you're going to suffer for it.

  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    And one question I got -- and don't atke this as sarcastic it's a serious question -- but why are so many long time industry vets putting out tutorials and such?

    I get that a lot people are geniunely nice and want to give back. I can't say how much I appreciate it. I've been able to learn 3d from home because of all the great content out there, both free and paid. But if you've ever tried to make a tutorial, you know, it takes a LOT of time. It's not something you do just on a casual whim.

    So it makes me wonder, are most these people spending their nights and weekends making tutorials and stuff because they just made of pure love, or because it's a side hustle because their dream job doesn't provide enough? Maybe a bit of both, but this is the kind of question you gotta figure out if you trying to start a new career. You need to know, what is most peopels exit plan. How and when do they get out, and where do they usually end up?

    The artist doing mentorship on gumroad you are learning from, you need to ask them, "yo dawg how comes you aint earning them big moneys in that major studio?"


  • Biomag
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    Biomag polycounter
    A lot of what I am reading here is based on the worst you can find out there - the typical stuff that makes the media because it causes outrage and clicks - and that is being declared standard. An extremely black and white view of the industry, bloated with oversimplification.

    I am working at a place that has the reputation for crunch and had people talking to the media about how bad it is. I can't speak for anybody, but myself and what I am seeing from the people around me. I get in at 9 and leave around 7 or 8 in the evening while I am taking no breaks. Why? Because I love doing it like that, I love working on the project and I love that the people around me are putting the same effort in there and the mentality is "if we can improve something we are doing it no matter how much work it is". I am honestly expecting if you would give this team another year to finish the project that they would simply crunch for an additional year without any need for pressure from above. And this is the reason why I actually like working there.

    I could definitely earn somewhere else more, even working signifcantly less, but to me the complete package of this place offers me surpasses alternatives. Keep in mind, usually having a place like this in your CV opens doors and yet people decide to stay for years and years. I guess they are all too dumb to not get exploited - there is no other explanation, right?


    For the other topic of why doing tutorials - who would have thought that people who were driven and passionate enough to become good enough to be considered among the best in the world in their field, would show enough work ethic to produce tutorials/classes outside of their regular job? Especially in an industry where they get a chance to give back to the community the same way they got it taught from others before. Add to that that it actually gives you an additional income and the alternative would be that you just produce art for yourself in that same time. Again the only explanation for that must be they are completely abused and desparate and that's why they work so hard in their off time... I've yet to see someone at the peak of his profession being a workoholic...


    But yes, working in the AAA-industy brainwashes you and you don't see the negatives anymore, you don't want things to change and you want to see the next generation get exploited as much as you are. Keeping everything nicely black and white makes it easier to understand. Especially you don't want your friends to be overwhelmed by reality when you get them that sweet job the more qualified people got robbed of...
  • Sylvy
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    Sylvy polycounter lvl 2
    I've been trying to figure this out myself, wanted to become a character artist for awhile now, but cannot get a position whatsoever, so I'm trying to improve as much as I can. I was in a studio for a year as a lighting and render artist, but my actual passion is in character as I felt more happier doing them. Now I am looking for something that is atleast modelling. 

    Character seems like a hard position to get, there is a lot of monsters out there, but not enough job from what im seeing. Though I maybe wrong. I guess just stick to it until something pans out, maybe do a side job or if you have parents to support you while you grind on your portfolio :).
  • Alex Javor
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    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    @Biomag I appreciate your response. It's kind of hard to see beyond what you hear from media because that's all there is. So it's good that you speak up and make a thoughtful response.

    I totally get you and how you like to work. I do the same thing. And I also have an impression that a lot of the whistle-blowers are simply weak little kids with no spine or work ethic. Certainly that adds a lot to the noise. Like that little punk who complained about having PTSD from making mortal combat. Get fucking real.

    But are you earning overtime pay? Because if you are working overtime and not earning overtime pay, you are being exploited. And if you think that you aren't, you are suffering from stockholm syndrome. That is very black and white. But what more can be said about that? I mean just because you are cool with it doesn't make it right. Most domestic abuse cases never get reported, and it's not for fear of reprisal. It's "complex." Yet still we want to help the people because from outside looking in, we know it's not right.

    If we don't continually work to improve our situations, they will get worse.

    One problem I see is that the way you and people like you operate -- that is not normal. It is exceptional. That is how a CEO works. But are you making a CEO salary? And how much is the CEO making? Are they and other executives making so much more that if you subdivided their salaries and bonuses you could increase wages for every single person in the company significantly? If yes, then you are worth more. A lot more.

    And what if you have a family crisis. And you can't make the crunch for some time? What if you are a genuinely talented artist and can consistently deliver good quality work but you just don't like to work extra hours because like, you want to walk your dog and eat dinenr with your wife? Normal human stuff? Person like that worth keeping around? Or are they just not tough enough to make games?

    And what happens when, after five more years, you just don't got the steam left to keep working like this? Where will you be? Does being at top of the artist game count for anything then? What happens to people who don't go into leadership positions?

    I'm all about the work, man. But if you are going to work like that, you ought to be thinking about retirement at 40, not worrying over paying rent or whether or not you can support a family.


  • Biomag
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    Biomag polycounter
    @Alex Javor 
    I really respect your opinion as you are coming from a side that I basically agree, but you oversimplify this.

    My contract situation is a bit different than the regular teams as I am just insourced for a couple of months (mine is actually worse, but that's a long story and I deliberatly decided to stick to it and not go with an alternative that I had, fully aware of the long term). But yes, overtime is paid for the whole team and it actually isn't mandatory. And if there is a crisis in your family you simply go and deal with it - you are surrounded by humans, not monsters.

    I am going to be honest - places like this are not for everyone and I absolutely get it if someone doesn't like it and moves on. I don't consider those who went and talked to the press to be the weak links. I have no clue who they were, but generally speaking I do understand why people might want to go elsewhere and that is completely fine. I for myself have not decided if I would take an offer for a permanent position yet, no rush to do so after 2 out of 6 months of the gig. In any case the workload is rather working in their favour and not against them in my case, but I also don't have pets, no plans for children, I am absolutely not a social person and my girlfriend understands my motivation and has no issues with the time I spend there (probably I have a bigger issue to have her doing more of the household besides her job and me being less of a help at home).

    Now if you do value work-life-balance more than working, which is totally legitmate and makes me not think lesser of someone, you will see this situation differently. But at the end of the day it doesn't come down to working hours vs pay. For me to work on a project like this, surrounded by some of the most bad ass people I know, all pushing towards their own limits and the limits of the tech involved, striving for a reslut that might be the game of they year in a highly competitive field - that gives me more than anything else in life. Knowing that I could keep up with that and deliver on the high expectations of teammates (and players) is something I wanted to know if I can do. That's also an experience who no one will be ever capable of taking away from me - so fuck the money, spare time and everything, I fulfiled a personal need that I couldn't get anywhere else.

    Now what the future holds and how long I will stay is a completely different matter. The point the you are underestimating is that the workers can leave and go somewhere else. When you are among the best in your field you get to choose where you want to go (not 100%, but you have options). You are not a victim of the system.


    Going on to the old CEO debate... coming from parents who grew up in a communist country, I totally get the mentality of them being overpaid and yadda yadda yadda... and yes, artists are definitely hopelessly underpaid compared to developers and traditional management staff (producers, project managers, finance,...). This should change, but then there is reality and all that crap making it a slow change. I don't even want to go there and talk about the same thing that can be said about every freaking industry out there regarding CEO'S pays. Its all out there, talked about, discussed from every angle imaginable. This here isn't the place for it and people have their own legitimate opinions on it.

    From my side though - I don't want to have my own company. I'm bored out of my mind any time I have to deal with legal and financial shit (and yeah, I have a law degree, but when it comes to my own stuff, I simply don't want to spend my time with these things). I actually don't even want to deal with other department issues - I don't want to care about the details of gameplay, animations, marketing, coding,... I don't want to hear about that if its not related to my tasks and we have to solve somehting. So yes, big studios are the place I want to be, so I can focus on my team's work and leave the other stuff to people I completely trust to nail it 1000x better than I would ever be able to. But this means big teams, big organisations, big money and big CEO paychecks... All I can do is get the best contract for myself out of it and I'm fine with that.
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