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How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

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  • HixaLupa
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    HixaLupa triangle
    That's a good point wirexx, I thought that the same issue would happen if the metal case was separated anyway so I just said screw it it'll be one mesh- my fairly limp excuse for doing it this way (I did remove the top half-sphere to reduce hardening it's edges too) is that it's the HiPoly for a small asset for a game, and my laziness has clearly cost me more time in the end lol!

    sacboi said:

    Heh :)

    ...and aside from this thread alone, there's also a ton of relevant info on the wiki as well. So really, getting up to speed with the fundamentals will save all that faffing/pissing about, in the first place.

    Topology

    Subdivision Surface Modelling


    Yeah, it's pretty gutting to be caught up on something that should be so simple! Those resources are great, so many links! I'll be sure to read through them cos I clearly have gaps in my knowledge that need filling/revising lmao

    Thank you everyone, I'll give it another go in a few days cos my deadline is so soon :sm:sweat_smile: with a higher division cylinder. Is it ok to post (what i hope will be) my success later on?

  • sacboi
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    sacboi ngon master
    @HixaLupa yes, by all means repost another attempt, so that others may learn from it or if needed suggest further revisions.
  • blastframe
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    blastframe polycounter lvl 5
    Hello,
    I have a tube that I'm extruding into a flat surface. When I try to bevel the object, I run into some trouble and could use some help. I have tried using triangles to not interfere with the inner curvature of the tube as in the image below.

    It's good except that it creates distortion when subdivided.


    I then tried another way, using more spans in the tube, which worked better, but still created an uneven union of the bevels.

    Here it is subdivided:


    Does anyone have advice on how to join extrude this flat surface out with optimal beveling? I've attached an .obj of the shape (before bevelling) if it helps.

    Thank you!


  • Prime8
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    Prime8 greentooth
    Hello,
    I have a tube that I'm extruding into a flat surface. When I try to bevel the object, I run into some trouble and could use some help. I have tried using triangles to not interfere with the inner curvature of the tube as in the image below.

    It's good except that it creates distortion when subdivided.


    I then tried another way, using more spans in the tube, which worked better, but still created an uneven union of the bevels.

    Here it is subdivided:


    Does anyone have advice on how to join extrude this flat surface out with optimal beveling? I've attached an .obj of the shape (before bevelling) if it helps.

    Thank you!


    I would flatten some parts of the cylinder first before extruding, try something like this.
    Less geo should work as well.

  • blastframe
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    blastframe polycounter lvl 5
    Prime8 said:

    I would flatten some parts of the cylinder first before extruding, try something like this.
    Less geo should work as well.

    That is beautiful! I'll give this a try. Thank you very much.
  • Rolfisway
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    Rolfisway polycounter lvl 2
    Hello,
    I have a tube that I'm extruding into a flat surface. When I try to bevel the object, I run into some trouble and could use some help. I have tried using triangles to not interfere with the inner curvature of the tube as in the image below.

    It's good except that it creates distortion when subdivided.


    I then tried another way, using more spans in the tube, which worked better, but still created an uneven union of the bevels.

    Here it is subdivided:


    Does anyone have advice on how to join extrude this flat surface out with optimal beveling? I've attached an .obj of the shape (before bevelling) if it helps.

    Thank you!



  • Revel
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    Revel greentooth
    Remember SubD does NOT required all quads, jut put ngon in there, you will enjoy it more.
    In max I'll just model the first mesh low cage mesh then slap in there a chamfer modifier + turbosmooth.

  • blastframe
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    blastframe polycounter lvl 5
    Thank you, @Prime8, @Rolfisway, and  @Revel !

    I have considered all of your posts and feel much better about the bevel (thanks to you!).

    I'm now trying to extrude the side in 90°. I came up with a solution to converge the bevel spans which yields a decent result (as in the below images), but I wanted to get some feedback from some more experienced modelers before proceeding. Am I missing a better solution? When subdivided, the intersection doesn't look very clean...it's sharp and seems to split the bevel in two rather than staying continuous. I've attached an .obj file too if you wish to take a look.


    Detail View:


    Subdivided:


  • sacboi
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    sacboi ngon master
    Firstly model each example as shown, then study in turn their respective topology design, because it seems to me you're still struggling too understand the basic principles of subd modeling and that's ok, we've all been there before.

    Anyway no better way too learn that I know of than trial and error.
  • blastframe
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    blastframe polycounter lvl 5
    sacboi said:
    Firstly model each example as shown, then study in turn their respective topology design, because it seems to me you're still struggling too understand the basic principles of subd modeling and that's ok, we've all been there before.

    Anyway no better way too learn that I know of than trial and error.
    Thank you for the response. I am struggling, however this is the topology design from @Prime8 as theirs allowed me to extrude in the manor I am demonstrating in my last post. I also tried using n-gons as suggested by @Revel. Beyond that, I've done plenty of trial and error before posting again as to not spam the thread.

    Could you please be more specific about which basic principle of sub-d modeling I am not understanding? My current issue does relate to my previous one in that it's a sub-division error from the intersection of sub-d support spans, but it's different and more complex as it's now also going in a 3rd dimension with the partial extrude. I have been studying and working on modeling a lot lately, but I haven't found anything on this which is why I am coming to this forum for help (that I believe exists for when your own methods can't take you any farther).
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @blastframe

    The "chamfer" modifier in Max does most of this sort of stuff automatically. I'm not saying you shouldn't learn sub-d - the point is rather that if a mere computer algorithm can do it, then there's a reproducible method which can be studied, understood and applied consistently.

    The sub-divided mesh below looks great, with no manual editing whatsoever.
    edit: max file (2020) attached


  • Revel
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    Revel greentooth
    That somehow reminds me of the 3PointStudio logo @perna :p

  • blastframe
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    blastframe polycounter lvl 5
    @perna That does look cool.
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Revel haha oh no that reminds me how ugly it is
    @blastframe I've attached the max file in the previous post
  • sacboi
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    sacboi ngon master

    blastframe said:

    sacboi said:

    Firstly model each example as shown, then study in turn their respective topology design, because it seems to me you're still struggling too understand the basic principles of subd modeling and that's ok, we've all been there before.

    Anyway no better way too learn that I know of than trial and error.

    Thank you for the response. I am struggling, however this is the topology design from @Prime8 as theirs allowed me to extrude in the manor I am demonstrating in my last post. I also tried using n-gons as suggested by @Revel. Beyond that, I've done plenty of trial and error before posting again as to not spam the thread.

    Could you please be more specific about which basic principle of sub-d modeling I am not understanding? My current issue does relate to my previous one in that it's a sub-division error from the intersection of sub-d support spans, but it's different and more complex as it's now also going in a 3rd dimension with the partial extrude. I have been studying and working on modeling a lot lately, but I haven't found anything on this which is why I am coming to this forum for help (that I believe exists for when your own methods can't take you any farther).

    perna said it all, I'll just add these for further reading.

    http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/SubdivisionSurfaceModeling

    http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/Topology

  • Paskuihernandez
    Hi everyone!! I'm modeling ths piece and i'd like to ask you how would you model the tiny holes that the big one contains on it. This piece is going to be baked and imported to UE4 so i know i'll do the holes' normal map in photoshop or maybe designer and then applying a material in painter but i'm interested in the way this could be modeled. ^^

  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Paskuihernandez
    no illustration but these steps should be clear enough to follow as long as you're familiar with 3ds terms.

    -make a a grid. That is, a subdivided plane/quad.
    -inset by face
    -delete
    -project this onto geo with the needed curve (like the geo you have in your mesh)
    -shell modifier
    -subdivide to turn the square holes into circles

    all you really need to know is how to turn a quad into a circle with subdivision.

  • Paskuihernandez
    @perna i got all the steps but the projection part... you mean with booleans?
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Paskuihernandez

    You can project geometry onto other geometry. In many cases this it the only way to be efficient, so check whatever app you use for projection capabilities. It's the same as draping cloth over a shape.

    illustrations from online:



  • Paskuihernandez
    @perna oh ok, i know the ShapeMerge...i'll try it!! thanks!! ^^

  • Arnonious
    Hello!
    Im modeling a JBL speaker and im at the point i need to "represent" the speakers "grid/net" and have no idea how to do it XD.
  • Soviet
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    Soviet triangle
    @Arnonious Look literally four posts above yours.
  • Arnonious
    Soviet said:
    @Arnonious Look literally four posts above yours.
    i forgot to say i use Maya :smile:
    and arnold for that matter
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    Arnonious said:
    Soviet said:
    @Arnonious Look literally four posts above yours.
    i forgot to say i use Maya :smile:
    and arnold for that matter
    So?
  • Arnonious
    perna said:
    @Paskuihernandez
    no illustration but these steps should be clear enough to follow as long as you're familiar with 3ds terms.

    -make a a grid. That is, a subdivided plane/quad.
    -inset by face
    -delete
    -project this onto geo with the needed curve (like the geo you have in your mesh)
    -shell modifier
    -subdivide to turn the square holes into circles

    all you really need to know is how to turn a quad into a circle with subdivision.

    so this means nothing to me
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    Arnonious said:
    perna said:
    @Paskuihernandez
    no illustration but these steps should be clear enough to follow as long as you're familiar with 3ds terms.

    -make a a grid. That is, a subdivided plane/quad.
    -inset by face
    -delete
    -project this onto geo with the needed curve (like the geo you have in your mesh)
    -shell modifier
    -subdivide to turn the square holes into circles

    all you really need to know is how to turn a quad into a circle with subdivision.

    so this means nothing to me
    Because of two terms which are inconsistent between 3DS and Maya your entire capability to understand the post collapses? I would like to have a stern talk with your teacher.

    A face in 3DS is the same as a polygon.
    Inset is demonstrated in the following image. I found it by using the website "www.google.com"
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/27/89/37/278937724161be21dbb95c026200d2a1.png
    Shell you can just ignore.

  • Arnonious
    perna said:
    Arnonious said:
    perna said:
    @Paskuihernandez
    no illustration but these steps should be clear enough to follow as long as you're familiar with 3ds terms.

    -make a a grid. That is, a subdivided plane/quad.
    -inset by face
    -delete
    -project this onto geo with the needed curve (like the geo you have in your mesh)
    -shell modifier
    -subdivide to turn the square holes into circles

    all you really need to know is how to turn a quad into a circle with subdivision.

    so this means nothing to me
    Because of two terms which are inconsistent between 3DS and Maya your entire capability to understand the post collapses? I would like to have a stern talk with your teacher.

    A face in 3DS is the same as a polygon.
    Inset is demonstrated in the following image. I found it by using the website "www.google.com"
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/27/89/37/278937724161be21dbb95c026200d2a1.png
    Shell you can just ignore.

    thanks i guess

  • sacboi
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    sacboi ngon master

    Arnonious said:

    [...]

    -shell modifier

    [...]

    so this means nothing to me

    Actually there's a plug for this in Maya:

    https://lesterbanks.com/2015/05/getting-started-using-the-maya-shell-modifier/

    ...and for me as a 'Blenderite', "Shell Modifier" means adding thickness or volume: 

    https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/latest/modeling/modifiers/generate/solidify.html

  • Przerywnik
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    Przerywnik polycounter lvl 4
    Hello Folks, im just wondering how the heck would you model this part super fast? What I know it was created in Modo and screenshot is taken from maya. Im wondering if are there any suppa fast tricks you can use to provide shapes like that? For example Sub-d modelling - and making a turbo smooth, or procedural bridging etc.  If there are any PROs who could explain me this example, would be great and really thankfull. Im always trying to solve this kind of riddles to incerase my speed workflow insead of each-poly modelling. Thanks!
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator
    Hello Folks, im just wondering how the heck would you model this part super fast? What I know it was created in Modo and screenshot is taken from maya. Im wondering if are there any suppa fast tricks you can use to provide shapes like that? For example Sub-d modelling - and making a turbo smooth, or procedural bridging etc.  If there are any PROs who could explain me this example, would be great and really thankfull. Im always trying to solve this kind of riddles to incerase my speed workflow insead of each-poly modelling. Thanks!
    firstly model all parts seperatly. Dont attach them. Just the big shape, secondary and threshery. When you have put them in place. You can see how many segments the big cylinder needs to hold the Secondary shape. And when that is done, see if those segments are enough to hold the smaller part. if not, subdivide the mesh once and then add the smallest.
  • Paskuihernandez
    Also another thing you can do to be a bit faster but maybe with no so good results is to apply a chamfer to the hard edges so they create some support loops that will helps you to get the sub-d result in less time. But, with round shapes you'll need to fix some n-gons for sure manually.
  • sacboi
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    sacboi ngon master
    @Przerywnik for an optimised polygonal workflow, research for example a combined technique implementing boolean operands for hard surface subd content creation however results will tend to vary dependant upon object complexity plus alongside personal finesse working with your app/s of choice.
  • Przerywnik
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    Przerywnik polycounter lvl 4
    @Paskuihernandez
    @perna
    @sacboi
    @wirrexx
     Thank you for your reply folks!!  

    @sacboi
     thanks for the tip, gonna google that! English is not my native language, sometime i coudnt find a good technical keywords to put into google to find it :D briliant tip!
  • sacboi
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    sacboi ngon master
    ...you're welcome, I'll also link a couple of resources as a kind of guide, that may help shed some light as to Boolean intergration or perhaps 'acceptence' as a viable technique for use in game res HS asset generation nowadays, as opposed to when I first started out:

    https://polycount.com/discussion/168610/3ds-max-zbrush-proboolean-dynamesh-hardsurface-workflow-tutorial/p1

    https://blendermarket.com/products/hard-surface-modeling-in-blender

    (...if you've time and can afford the fee, I'd strongly recommend checking out the Blender stuff, if nothing else there's some really interesting workflow demo's covering a wide array of methods, either common and uncommon)


  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    No, seriously. It's a cylinder.




  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator
    perna said:
    No, seriously. It's a cylinder.




    Move aside Piccasso.. WE GOT PERNASSO IN THE HOUSE!
  • sacboi
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    sacboi ngon master
    Lol...took the words right out of my mouth :)
  • zachagreg
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    zachagreg sublime tool
    sacboi said:
    ...you're welcome, I'll also link a couple of resources as a kind of guide, that may help shed some light as to Boolean intergration or perhaps 'acceptence' as a viable technique for use in game res HS asset generation nowadays, as opposed to when I first started out:

    https://polycount.com/discussion/168610/3ds-max-zbrush-proboolean-dynamesh-hardsurface-workflow-tutorial/p1

    https://blendermarket.com/products/hard-surface-modeling-in-blender

    (...if you've time and can afford the fee, I'd strongly recommend checking out the Blender stuff, if nothing else there's some really interesting workflow demo's covering a wide array of methods, either common and uncommon)



    That blender one is a gold mine of information.
  • Przerywnik
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    Przerywnik polycounter lvl 4
    perna said:
    No, seriously. It's a cylinder.




    emm, i was more thinking about that angle connector between the extruded part and main cylinder shape. How do you do that? :D sorry if you guys felt trolled, i should somehow mark it with red circle to be more exact : P
  • Klunk
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    Klunk polycounter lvl 4
    I think gusset is the word you're looking for :)

  • sacboi
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    sacboi ngon master
    @Przerywnik apologies if that was the impression given, so to be clear your query was totally legit by the way.

    Additionally these types of objects are typically cast (via mold) due too engineered CNC specific tasks they're designed too perforn under load in certain environments hence the additional 'gusset' for extra strength. An engine block also perfectly illustrates this process to full effect, in fact I'll link a Tutes+ series authored by Laurens Corijn, Modeling/UV Mapping/Texturing/Real-Time render a low poly game res Hot Rod in 3ds Max/Photoshop/IDE.

    It was actually one of the first 'class A' project's end to end I'd attempted back when initially published in 2009 and IMHO still relevant nowadays as then.

    Anyway if interested check out these vids relating to the engine which describes in detail a straight forward workflow wirrexx noted upthread, where simple shapes/primitives can be used to represent a complex object.

    https://cgi.tutsplus.com/tutorials/creating-a-next-gen-video-game-hot-rod-the-complete-workflow-part-3--cg-2247

    Cheers
  • Madeira3d
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    Madeira3d polycounter lvl 3
    Hi there,

    What do you think is the best topology? 
    Also would you model it like this topology wise?

    Cheers


  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    Madeira: When you say "best", what do you mean? What is your definition of a good model? Do you feel that perhaps you've missed some rules and someone else could compliment your knowledge by pointing out mistakes? What are your own goals? I mean, the obvious ones. Is it uncertainty that prompts you to ask or is it that you seek the resolution to a specific issue? Sorry for this "answer" - I'm trying to understand the mental process and what goes into your deciding that a mesh is good enough.
  • Madeira3d
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    Madeira3d polycounter lvl 3
    Hi @perna, thank you for your help. So I’m modelling for smooth subdivision surfaces and if I subdivide the left geometry,it creates non smooth areas because of the spacing is far from regular, on the right results are good because polygons  are more uniform, but I also wanted maybe other modelling  topology alternatives to what I have done. Thanks
  • wirrexx
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    wirrexx interpolator
    Madeira3d said:
    Hi there,

    What do you think is the best topology? 
    Also would you model it like this topology wise?

    Cheers


    knockout version of your shoe base. base mesh as few polys as possible. Turbo smoothed using Smoothing groups. and look at how direction of the edgeflow on the extruded edges. 
  • perna
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    perna quad damage
    @Madeira3d

    See how this design is really just three quads, and you can subdivide and subdivide that as you need more.

    I tend to think in terms of these very simple 3d grids/voxels. Flow control happens down at the polygon level, so it means that even a coarse mesh of this style has a lot of control.

    To accompany this approach try practising transitioning between different numbers of sides and segments in an n-gon. Say a rectangle with its sides divided into 3, 12, 3 , and 7 .The 3 from the left needs to flow into the 12 on the right and the 3 up top needs to flow into 7 on the bottom. This practice will unlock many secrets of modeling if you really pay attention to what you're doing.

    another advantage of the grid approach is localised error (c). If a vert is out of place, you don't get bad shading over a large area, you get something which may even look like a natural depression or defect, wear and tear, whatever.

    Just to make it clear - the idea isn't to make these big, dense quad meshes, but to resolve all main flow issues when the mesh is just a bunch of crude boxes. Every time you subdivide this to add detail it will resolve beautifully, you can just keep dumping in as much detail as you want. 
    This kind of thing in conjunction with the chamfer modifier becomes very powerful, as it allows your these meshes that are super-crude cages, like 3d pixel art, but the final rendered items are just pristine, perfect curves and rounded corners.

    I don't even know if I'm helping, I just said a bunch of stuff. Here's the image. Check out that red. I made the wireframe red like that because it really hurts my head, it's so trippy.



    A - means, I'm too bored to write this part
    B - Chicago yo whats up eyyyyy





  • Yogev
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    Yogev node
    Hello there,

    I have this piece that I'm working on, and I was wondering if you guys have any idea on how to fix the topology/ edge flow. 


     I beveled it to be able to hold the shape when smoothing it. As I expected, the three lines that resulted made a sharp edge appear when smoothing it.
    So what I tried to do was to connect the edges in a different way, to eliminate that sharp edge. That however, didn't go very well, as there is still a bit of a weird shape going on, smooth or not.

    It is especially noticeable when putting next to another shape.

    Any ideas on how to fix this issue? Should I use something other than bevel to hold the shape? (I tried just putting some edge loops, but it gave a similar result)
  • Paskuihernandez
    This should work: 
  • Yogev
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    Yogev node
    This should work: 
    Thank you for your comment. I had an attempt at connecting the edges like you suggested, though there is still a weird edge in there. 

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