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Next-Gen Jak (WIP)

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polycounter lvl 11
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Melazee polycounter lvl 11
Hi all!

I was recently inspired by the scrapped Jak 4 concepts in Naughty Dog's artbook, and decided to have a go at making a model of him (and possibly Daxter?) in my minuscule spare time.

I'm using this concept as a rough guide, although adapting it slighting as there were some features I wasn't really a fan of such as the face and the hair (this concept isn't mine, photo taken from the Naughty Dog art book):

image_by_gashu_monsata-d8fi25q.jpg

WIP shots:

Forgive the horrendous draw-over hah.
jakwip_by_gashu_monsata-d8g8n76.jpg

My original base sculpt which is going to be chopped apart eventually, still want to fix things such as the lack of tailbone on the spine however
1_by_gashu_monsata-d8g8n79.jpg


I don't have a tonne of experience modelling and sculpting clothes, so this should be a fun challenge! I attended a 1 hour web seminar with the Lead Character Artist at Naughty Dog, Frank Tzeng, last night which was super useful.

I'll keep this thread updated with progress (it'll be extremely slow :<)

Replies

  • Neox
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    Neox veteran polycounter
    get your basic shape down before you add details like pores or hair. it looks like a subdivided basemesh with some surface noise on top. don't forget your low and mid levels!
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Thanks for the feedback! I did try to do low and mid levels, however I always seem to shy away from making anything too sharp for some reason and end up smoothing it all out so it looks like a subdivided basemesh :P I did a bit of polypainting before I read this (first time trying Polypainting properly, he ended up looking slightly burnt hah). After all this, I might just end up going back and doing the head over again:

    10947668_10205875310903983_272718192_n_by_gashu_monsata-d8g9xi0.jpg
  • KingKellogg
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    KingKellogg polycounter lvl 6
    Wasn't the original cartoony looking? ( I didn't play them )
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Yep!

    latest?cb=20130105171127&path-prefix=es

    Naughty Dog decided to do the Last of Us instead because Jak wasn't working out. In all fairness, I think the Jak games probably would be better sticking to its stylistic routes, but it would have been really interesting to see how a more realistic game would have looked and played.
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi high dynamic range
    The body as a whole, I think, could stand to be somewhat proportonally taller. I know the concept from the original Jax games proves him ot be somewhat stocky, but the new concept, with a more realistic bent, seems slightly lankier, more basketball player physique like.

    How the heck did you get that skin polypainted that well?
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    That's true, I wasn't sure what body build to go for really. Like, should I stick to the original or the new concept? I wasn't too sure so I ended up making him a bit more stocky like people remember him. I'm studying skulls currently to fix up the head shape and such too. My lack of anatomy knowledge is apparent :P

    For the Polypaint, I think I used a speckled Alpha and had the brush style on the splatter mode to give the skin a more dappled look. I made redder areas such as the end of the nose and cheeks, and the areas where his beard/stubble show through I made a more grey/blue. The lips were just from a photo though. I think the skin looks a bit too dirty for what I was going for, but then... I suppose he is a rugged desert man huh ;)
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Tonight's update, only got an hour free time. I did a quick sculpt over to get the face looking better. The lips are terrible currently, need to re-project my mesh since I ran out of usable topology there. I do struggle with lips however. Any good tips on making them not look like the character is pulling duckface? Also think I need to tone down the neck muscles there a tad hah.

    wip_by_gashu_monsata-d8gfx31.jpg

    Feedback greatly appreciated!
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi high dynamic range
    Assuming you're dynameshing like a madman, I'd say isolate the two lips separately through polygroups. Take each one at a time to accentuate the plump and planar angle of the lips, so you don't have to deal with both at once.

    In regards to the thickness of the lips, just try overdoing it first so it's easier to just use the Move tool to pull things back, instead of inching forward to the ideal. Think phenotypically African in terms of "over-doing" since archtypically, they tend to have nice, full lips.

    That was sightly racist. But . . .

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbud8rLejLM&quot;]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbud8rLejLM[/ame]
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Thanks for the feedback!

    I wasn't using Dynamesh (in hindsight, it probably would be better for the head). I was using subdivisions, and then when I ran out of polys I would use Z-Remesher, and then project my high detail back onto the newly generated low poly version (that way I don't lose my subdivision levels). But really, I could probably do the exact same thing with Dynamesh hah. I avoided it on the body as I kept getting weird artifacts with Dynamesh (it kept bridging between the legs), so I used remesher instead. But for the head, Dynamesh would probably be perfect.

    In super super hindsight, perhaps I should work on a base model in Maya with good topology to start, hah.

    Good tip on the lips. I also always seem to get them to look... not quite relaxed? Like the character is squeezing them together, or doing some odd expression with them.
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Another update for tonight! Still not happy with the lips hmm.

    Kept his large-ish nose from the original games :) Might make his face a bit longer too, he has a pointier chin than here.

    wip2_by_gashu_monsata-d8gkktf.jpg
  • KingKellogg
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    KingKellogg polycounter lvl 6
    Looks good for the realistic route, but I do agree with you that they should stay with the stylish look.
  • BagelHero
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    BagelHero interpolator
    For the lips (you're missing some forms, under the lip especially):

    xlarge-Head-neck-Block-outs-82.jpg
    xlarge-Head-neck-Block-outs-145.jpg
    xlarge-Head-neck-Secrets-157.jpg
    xlarge-Head-neck-Secrets-158.jpg

    Your nose here is also strange look out of all the major hills and valleys on whatever refs you're using, this looks a bit blobby.
    xlarge-Head-neck-Block-outs-147.jpg

    Source: https://www.anatomy4sculptors.com/anatomy.php

    You're also missing proper eyelids and the folds and overhangs in that area are confused. Perhaps try something like this to fix that up:
    [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA4QziHEk8E[/ame]



    Finally, make up your mind whether or not you're following the concept/style (make your own if you're not, everything is confused as it stands). You're at too high a subdiv for the structure changes you're making. Your result doesn't look like Jax, because you're deviating too far. Despite being cartoon-y anyway, he looks young, has this punk-y teen face (that's why the more realistic concept you posted originally has this kinda skaterdude face).

    He looks old and stocky from this latest face, I think it's the wrong direction. If I may, a liquefy paintover:

    54d186911d622.png

    Stop trying to define your forms with lines, you should be defining form by building up the form!
    He looks old and crinkly-- smooth out with a lower subdiv. Realistic =/= middle aged. The head is far too bulbous, take a look at some proportional charts and skulls.

    My paintover is just trying to get back the vague essence of an angry youth/ basic proportional issues, so some of it is too idealized/stylish, but I'm of the opinion that if more time was spent (this took like 5 minutes), then you could easily keep the squatness in (since Jak always seemed quite stubby to me, I can see it working), and still get a more youthful aggressiveness.

    A lot of the problems are related to where and how you added wrinkles, and the general muddiness and bulbousness of the skull/brow. The muddiness can read as skin sagging/stretching, just FYI, so try to work at much lower subdivs so the smooth tool actually works as intended.

    Your earlier version was much better, despite lacking forms. It looked more youthful and the jaw/cheeks sold your vision of Jak a lot better than they do right now.

    All in all, I'll just say it: Plan ahead instead of throwing stuff together in zbrush at super high details. It will save you time and energy.
    Looking forward to seeing your progress, hope this post isn't too much haha.
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Thankyou sooo much! This feedback is super helpful for sure, really appreciated! Thankyou for all the useful links and the paintover, you're absolutely right. I am a bit all over the place with where the style is going currently. I was going for a Chris Pine-esque look with him, but really, now that you mention it, Jak's face should be much longer and pointier.

    I've been having a bit of trouble with the face wrinkles. I either make him look far too old (especially with the lines around the nose/mouth area), or I smooth them out altogether. I need to really focus on getting that balance.

    Again thankyou so much for taking the time to give me this feedback! I'm glad I decided to keep this project posted here, everyone is super helpful :)
  • steve0
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    steve0 polycounter lvl 5
    That's some good feedback right there. Posts like that remind me why this community kicks ass! @BagelHero

    Keep on truckin Melazee, can't wait to see updates!
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Okay, update! Not getting much time to work on this at the moment during the day, but I'll do what I can :)

    Tried to apply the feedback Bagelhero left. Still think there's more I can do, but I feel like it already feels like a much more solid form than my first pass up top. The hair parts are just stuck on top temporarily, I got a little bored seeing him bald so I quickly whipped him up some hair hah. Also gave me a good idea of where I will be headed (get it? Headed? Hah...ha).

    jak_by_gashu_monsata-d8gopct.jpg

    Well that's it for tonight! No updates tomorrow night unfortunately :(

    As usual, feedback greatly appreciated! I still feel like there's more much I can improve on this :)


    EDIT- Did a fun little comparison image between the old and new versions, the feedback here is so helpful, thankyou so much guys:

    compare_by_gashu_monsata-d8gos67.jpg
  • BagelHero
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    BagelHero interpolator
    Ah, there we go. Definitely getting back there!

    It looks pretty good from the front, but the 3/4 view reveals that your brow is too far forward in comparison to the cheek. You may want to pull the cheeks forward a bit to match, or pull back the brow or both. The bridge of the nose, compared to the nostril area, is also a bit too concave for something sort of realistic. You might want to straighten that out a bit.

    More redline suggestions.
    54d305f0382f8.png

    Also just to make sure, is this in perspective?
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Thankyou so much for the feedback! I'll definitely work on that next. He does look rather Neolithic currently haha :)

    Thanks again! Your last feedback helped a tonne for sure!
  • BagelHero
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    BagelHero interpolator
    Hey, it's no problem. :) I'm glad it helped!
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Update! Just sculpting into the goggles now, very much WIP! Need to do a bit of research into dented metal sculpting, I have no experience with metalic objects. Also want to add more detail onto the viewer parts at the front (probably do it in Maya). I also still need to add some buckles that hand down in front of the ears.

    Kind of want to go back and refine his ear more too.

    jakgoggles1_by_gashu_monsata-d8h0ysv.jpg
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi high dynamic range
    Mm that leather feels GOOD
  • eedobaba7726
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    eedobaba7726 polycounter lvl 9
    At the top of this thread, I didn't have a lot of hope that this would go well. I'm not a big fan of the concept (I always liked cartoony Jak from the first game the most). But I have to say, you've made a lot of improvements and have managed to get a lot of character into the face. Looking forward to seeing how this turns out now!
  • martygalinskas3d
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    martygalinskas3d polycounter lvl 4
    that looks epic! his face is perfect!
  • reedweinstock
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    reedweinstock polycounter lvl 8
    Jak 2 is my favorite game of all time! Imo I think Brad Pitt face would be a good fit for Jak. I can wait to see this textured :)
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    At the top of this thread, I didn't have a lot of hope that this would go well. I'm not a big fan of the concept (I always liked cartoony Jak from the first game the most). But I have to say, you've made a lot of improvements and have managed to get a lot of character into the face. Looking forward to seeing how this turns out now!

    You know, looking at my original posts on this thread, I would have thought the exact same thing =P I really wish I had started using Polycount much sooner to be honest, the feedback and help has been astounding!
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Hi all! Been away a while, work has been super busy and I've only just had chance to work on this again. Just started the body, with a quick scribble over of what I have in mind. Clothes aren't really a strong point of mine, I'll definitely need to do some study and go back into the lower subdivisions but this little bit was fun to do to get me back into the swing of it :)

    jakwip2_by_gashu_monsata-d8l2vjk.jpg
  • pmiller001
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    pmiller001 greentooth
    wont lie to you, this looks like a fantasy nathan drake.
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Haha, it does doesn't it? Perhaps it's the squareness of the face. I might need to go back and tweak that, I haven't really touched the face since last time but his face appeared longer in the last renders which I kind of like better (I think I rendered them angled slightly downwards). It suits him much more.
  • pmiller001
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    pmiller001 greentooth
    oh nok, i wasnt critiquing it, sorry. I was making an observation haha. I hope that didnt come off wrong.
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Hah no, it's totally fine! I didn't take it personally or anything :P
  • GhostChili
    It's looking so good now! Great work! Something about the jaw line seems too perfectly straight, try bowing out the jaw line ever so SLIGHTLY to give a little more anatomical interest. I like to do this by using my move brush, look underneath and nudge it out, use a brush size that covers most of what would be the masseter.

    16776921615_cdb0c30073_z.jpg
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Good catch! Yeah, don't want him ending up Uncanny Valley'ish or something hah.

    I've been reworking the jacket, don't have an image on me right now to show but yikes... I'm going for denim, denim sure is tough! I'll have some images up later to show my progress with it :)
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Here we go! Denim, ughhhhh. Need to work into those tearing areas a bit, they look too much like leather currently. I get the feeling that most of the look of the denim will come from the texture though.

    (Oh yeah, ignore the hair in the back shot, it's really roughly done as a placeholder... still haha)
    jakwip3_by_gashu_monsata-d8lbpb2.jpg

    I'm loosely basing it on Jak's shirt from Jak 2... a mixture between that and the one in the Jak 4 concepts. I just loved the side buckles on the Jak 2 shirt!
  • GhostChili
    Hey dude, you seem to be having a little bit of a difficult time with cloth, check this out. It goes through the process of creating believable folds, not to mention this site has some valuable brushes it offers!

    http://www.selwy.com/2009/zbrush-clothes-tutorial/
  • GhostChili
    awgh, sorry for the spam, on my phone.
  • AgelosAp
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    AgelosAp polycounter
    I like the details on the jacket, although I think the underlying forms aren't up to par.
    Looks like you have a last of us clothing vibe going on, intentionally or not, here is a ref that you can copy some of the weight and form the jacket has.
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Yess, thanks for the ref guys! Clothing folds are really difficult for me, I've always struggled with understanding them. I used photo ref for this but it's still a bit eh. Looking at the Last of Us sculpt, it looks like I'm a bit afriad to make the folds bolder and clearer. They're very shaky and unrefined on mine, which I will go back and fix up. The direction of the folds isn't suggesting an underlying form either, which I need to go back and study up more hah :)
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Tonight's WIP! Still struggling with the clothing somewhat, but I am trying to study it as much as I can. I restarted it again from the first subdivision after previous feedback :) Found a nice clothing shader from Naughty Dog too. Will be doing more on this tomorrow! Probably gonna ditch the stitching and go over the whole model to make sure the folds are right, this was more of a fun test this evening.

    untitled_1_by_gashu_monsata-d8lg0cx.jpg


    And another super quick paintover of the kind of thing I have in mind:

    untitled_1_by_gashu_monsata-d8lg0qc.jpg

    The scarf hasn't been touched yet, I will fix that up.
  • AgelosAp
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    AgelosAp polycounter
    Looks much better, good job!
    That stroke/fold in the middle-left needs to blend a little more, right now it is clearly a stroke towards its end(the two little ones towards the bottom too).
    But very nice update, keep working it :D
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Update! Had some good time to work on the jacket today! I don't have much experience with the BRP render, does the noise filter not show up on it? Or is the BRP just super blurred? There is a slight noise to give the fabric effect, but when I render it, it's kind all blurred out. Hmm.

    jakjacket_by_gashu_monsata-d8lkmoi.jpg
  • Whalebones
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    Whalebones polycounter lvl 11
    Looking good, like a cross between Jak and Mad Max... Mad Jak!
  • SaboR1996
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    SaboR1996 polycounter lvl 8
    You better make a game res model of this. -hint hint-
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Hah, thanks guys! Don't worry, there will be a game res version for sure! :)
  • TheodorUrhed
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    TheodorUrhed polycounter lvl 4
    Instead of extending the sculpt piece by piece it would be a good idea to get the base for everything blocked out otherwise you risk ending up with very wonky proportions and you will also get a feel for how far you've gotten to your goal and will probably spend less time getting bogged down in details.

    Otherwise it's looking good :)
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Haha yesss, I suspected it was a pretty bad way of working, kinda realised it part way through. I'll definitely change up my work flow on my next model because it's really easy to get hung up on the smaller areas before I've planned out the entire thing. For example, I will have to go back to the jacket at some point because he wears a harness, which will affect the folds in the jacket. If I had planned the whole thing beforehand, that wouldn't have been necessary.
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    I am not dead! Wooo! Picked this up again, got pretty busy the past few months and I'd love to get this finished. Pretty much just started roughing in his backpack and buckles. They need a lot of refining, but I think I'm okay with the general shapes now. More detail to be added, these have just been bought in from Maya.

    jak_by_gashu_monsata-d8x9q7k.jpg
  • DavidCruz
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    DavidCruz interpolator
    This is looking great, each update.
    The back of the head caught my attention, not sure if it is just the lack of hair, but perhaps some volume is missing, not exactly sure but wanted to point it out just in case there is some funny business going on. Specifically behind his ears, that bare area.

    Otherwise no matter how long it takes I'd like to see the updates fill final :) carry on. Also really nice concept to use.
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Yep, I totally agree with you about the head haha. I'll be the first to admit the hair is a lazy job, I'll fix it up later but he's eventually going to have alpha planes for hair, so I'm not too fussed with it currently. I could probably pull it closer to the ear though so it doesn't look so weird from behind in the WIP shots :)

    But thanks very much! I will keep plugging away at this. Might be needing a lot of feedback when it comes to texturing and such, not done much with different maps before for a realistic character.
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Minor update tonight. Just began to refine the chest brace/backpack, testing out stitching (might make the stitching smaller). Probably going to go back into the trousers and refine them more too, give them bolder folds and such.

    Also pulled the hair around nearer to the ear since it was annoying me hah ;)

    next_gen_jak_wip_3_by_gashu_monsata-d8xk2t1.jpg
  • Chronicle
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    Chronicle polycounter lvl 5
    I'm really really liking where this was going. I kinda agree with the sentiment that I was a little worried about where it was going at the beginning but damn! There's been so much improvement and the direction you're going with it is awesome. Keep up the great work.
  • Melazee
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    Melazee polycounter lvl 11
    Thanks very much! I'm definitely glad I posted the progress here to start, got lots of great feedback which helped for sure. I can't take all the credit ;)

    Still completely open for any feedback too if anyone has suggestions! I feel that you stare at your own work for so long that sometimes, you miss mistakes/errors that jump out to other people hah.
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