It's fair that there are pro-Russian-Russians who want to become part of Russia, this is similar to pro-English Irish residents in Northern Ireland. However, can we say that they are the majority? Russia's main fear is natural resources going towards Europe, and other surrounding countries doing the same thing.
They think of themselves as unionists or pro Union/British rather than just pro English.
My bad, I always thought of Unionism as being an English driven historical concept, from when they were fighting / invading the separate states like Scotland.
Second: Since Operation Mockingbird it is quite a common tactic for US to first corrupt a counrty's official's then assassinating and/or coup'ing the only useful leaders to turn that country into their own proxy state. You hear a lot about Ukraine's new goverment being Nazi-type people that are backed up by western financial sources. So this whole thing could be partly a same template. So why did this matter got so complicated ?
Here is my simple take on it:
Putin simply didn't like to see the same thing happening in his " backyard" let me humbly call it ( no offense intended, really) . He simply didn't like it, aslo the income from energy sale was at stake so he simply didn't stand there and used the same tactic on Ukraine. Supporting the other factions by physical/ political means. And now you have the mass you have in your hands.
I really don't believe this is the case here. While the US might have been able to rig coups in the past, it doesn't mean that they are behind every coup since then. In fact, to think that they would be capable of doing so gives the US government far too much credit in the light of their recent failures.
I've been following this whole situation since the early Maidan protests and I clearly remember the overwhelming support among the general population. Thousands of people went out into the streets to protest against their government and it was only after a series of blunders by Yanukovych's government that the whole situation went out of control. One of the key things to remember is that it wasn't just the far-right who took part in these protests, but people from all sides of the political spectrum. In fact, this diversity of views was one of the main reasons why the opposition leaders were incapable of controlling the crowds.
And frankly I believe this is exactly what it is. A popular popular protest that got out of control and turned into a larger conflict. There is no denying that both the US and Russia are involved and are actively trying to push it in a direction that aligns with their goals. Both parties are to blame for how it escalated and for not stopping it when they had a chance. However, I do not believe for a second that this situation is a result of some conspiracy. Neither Russia, nor the US seem to be in control of the sides they are backing. Whatever plans the West and Russia had for Ukraine they were taken over by hatred fuelled by centuries of conflicts, occupation and genocide.
In regard to the Fascist far-right.
This whole notion of Ukrainian opposition being some group of crazed Nazis never even appeared until Russian military moved into Crimea. A vast majority of reports that portrayed western Ukrainians as fascists also came from the Russian, state controlled media.
They were not lying about the radical, far-right elements involvement in the Maidan protests. The far-right paramilitary groups like Right Sector and Svoboda had a massive role in the violence that brought down the Yanukovych government, a fact that western media often ignored. However, as the events escalated, the Russian media began propagating the idea that far-right parties universal support. To give an idea of how overblown these statements were; Dmytry Yarosh, the leader of the Right Sector recorded less than 1% votes cast in his name.
Overall, the problem a far-right groups is not unique to Ukraine. If you go to any part of the ex-soviet block you will find all kinds of fringe parties and paramilitary groups. My own country (Poland), has plenty of these as well. Russia itself has an abundance of extreme nationalists, with LDPR having over 50 seats in duma.
My bad, I always thought of Unionism as being an English driven historical concept, from when they were fighting / invading the separate states like Scotland.
na don't worry I just know from experience that some people get very sensitive about it haha.
Anyone could use a proxy or VPN to spoof their IP, so even if they weren't in Russia, it would appear as if they were. It's no wonder that the Supreme Court ruled that an IP cannot identify someone.
Did you know that the US government does the same exact thing? Also, the US recently legalized propaganda, too.
During the past year, that company has replaced their entire board of directors with people from the west, with Joe Biden's son becoming the head of the company being the latest addition.
There is a difference between backing a coup and orchestrating one. I remember the original recording quite well and it was nowhere as shocking as people make it out to be. Of course the US would back western-leaning protests and of course they would support oppositions members that align with their interests. However, all I see there is opportunism, not some devilish plot. Western Ukraine would turn to the west sooner, or later without US lifting a finger. After all Ukrainians only had to look at ex-soviet states that did not choose to remain aligned to Russia and see the stark contrast in living conditions and opportunities. Keep in mind that Ukraine has GDP per Capita of only $4000, while it's close neighbours like Latvia, Hungary, Lithuania or Poland average now $14000 and places like Czech Republic, Slovenia and Estonia are getting closer to income level of core EU states.
Lastly, prior to this crisis, the west wasn't really that keen on bringing Ukraine under its wing. It could have done so with ease in 2004, right after the Orange revolution, but the EU, was very slow to react. Nowadays the EU has plenty of its own problems and with the growing euroscepticism and negative attitudes towards immigration it will be much more difficult for Ukraine to join the EU, than it was for other ex-soviet countries.
Anyone could use a proxy or VPN to spoof their IP, so even if they weren't in Russia, it would appear as if they were. It's no wonder that the Supreme Court ruled that an IP cannot identify someone.
There is a difference between backing a coup and orchestrating one. I remember the original recording quite well and it was nowhere as shocking as people make it out to be. Of course the US would back western-leaning protests and of course they would support oppositions members that align with their interests. However, all I see there is opportunism, not some devilish plot.
That kind of opportunism is what got us into a war that we had no reason to be in - Iraq. In addition, that kind of opportunism allowed the passage of the Patriot Act, which is a nasty document that invalidates half of America's constitutional rights, as long as the authority figure suspects terrorism or threats to national security, both which have very vague meanings and can be abused.
Opportunism is really just as bad as direct action, in my opinion - as they both share the same intent.
We'll have to agree to disagree I think. To each their own.
*Tinfoil Picture*
Works best if you put it on your head.
I bet you said this to the people who said the NSA and the US government were spying on everyone and everything before the NSA leaks came out, too.
It's really low of you to do - I didn't make outlandish claims that weren't supported by anything, I supported every single thing I said with sources. If you don't actually want to learn anything about the situation, then just don't post here.
Checking for what? Wikipedia's open proxy ban doesn't matter at all. I'm getting the sense you don't understand what proxies/vpns actually do...
Proxies and VPNs are not useful for trying to impersonate an IP address, they just tunnel traffic to and from a destination. You can't just use a VPN to make IP anything you want, the VPN needs a valid IP address in order to receive traffic and the destination (Wikipedia in this case) is going to see the IP address of the VPN. Meaning if you want it to look like the Russian government then you need a VPN/Proxy within the Russian government.
You don't have to use the VPN to say any IP you want. You can simply use a Russian VPN service from outside Russia to accomplish where the IP appears to be.
What are you even talking about? Are you thinking that twitter bot just assumes every Russian IP is from the Russian government?
First of all edits done by somebody from russian televsion company (RTR/VGTRK). Scond thing is unedited version is just a lie (plane shot down by terrorists).
RTR is state owned, it's part of the Russian government
I know what is RTR and who own it.
PS.
Headline: «Jane Dow killed by US government».
Whats inside: John Dow is US army soldier -> He killed Jane Dow in his spare time -> He is US army soldier -> US army owned by US government -> Jane Dow killed by US government.
Whats actually happen: Jane Dow killed by John Dow. Nothing more.
What does that have to do with my point? You're not denying that the edit came from within a government owned entity so I'm going to just assume you agree with me.
With the thread turning in to a debate between just a few members, this thread is now closed for an undetermined amount of time. It may reopen in the future if necessary. For now, though, we'd like to cool things off.
If you feel this thread was wrongfully closed, email me personally here: adam(at)polycount(dot)com.
Replies
They think of themselves as unionists or pro Union/British rather than just pro English.
I really don't believe this is the case here. While the US might have been able to rig coups in the past, it doesn't mean that they are behind every coup since then. In fact, to think that they would be capable of doing so gives the US government far too much credit in the light of their recent failures.
I've been following this whole situation since the early Maidan protests and I clearly remember the overwhelming support among the general population. Thousands of people went out into the streets to protest against their government and it was only after a series of blunders by Yanukovych's government that the whole situation went out of control. One of the key things to remember is that it wasn't just the far-right who took part in these protests, but people from all sides of the political spectrum. In fact, this diversity of views was one of the main reasons why the opposition leaders were incapable of controlling the crowds.
And frankly I believe this is exactly what it is. A popular popular protest that got out of control and turned into a larger conflict. There is no denying that both the US and Russia are involved and are actively trying to push it in a direction that aligns with their goals. Both parties are to blame for how it escalated and for not stopping it when they had a chance. However, I do not believe for a second that this situation is a result of some conspiracy. Neither Russia, nor the US seem to be in control of the sides they are backing. Whatever plans the West and Russia had for Ukraine they were taken over by hatred fuelled by centuries of conflicts, occupation and genocide.
In regard to the Fascist far-right.
This whole notion of Ukrainian opposition being some group of crazed Nazis never even appeared until Russian military moved into Crimea. A vast majority of reports that portrayed western Ukrainians as fascists also came from the Russian, state controlled media.
They were not lying about the radical, far-right elements involvement in the Maidan protests. The far-right paramilitary groups like Right Sector and Svoboda had a massive role in the violence that brought down the Yanukovych government, a fact that western media often ignored. However, as the events escalated, the Russian media began propagating the idea that far-right parties universal support. To give an idea of how overblown these statements were; Dmytry Yarosh, the leader of the Right Sector recorded less than 1% votes cast in his name.
Overall, the problem a far-right groups is not unique to Ukraine. If you go to any part of the ex-soviet block you will find all kinds of fringe parties and paramilitary groups. My own country (Poland), has plenty of these as well. Russia itself has an abundance of extreme nationalists, with LDPR having over 50 seats in duma.
na don't worry I just know from experience that some people get very sensitive about it haha.
Read my post here, there is actually a lot of evidence that there was a US backed coup, it's not just idle speculation.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2101419&postcount=29
Worth remembering that in Russia, regime controls media in ridiculous ways. They are closer to North Korea with it's propaganda than anything else.
Did you know that the US government does the same exact thing? Also, the US recently legalized propaganda, too.
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/07/12/us_backs_off_propaganda_ban_spreads_government_made_news_to_americans
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/08/darpa-social-networks-research-twitter-influence-studies
Also, you can watch CNN, Fox, NBC, etc in Russia too.
Very strange.
Works best if you put it on your head.
There is a difference between backing a coup and orchestrating one. I remember the original recording quite well and it was nowhere as shocking as people make it out to be. Of course the US would back western-leaning protests and of course they would support oppositions members that align with their interests. However, all I see there is opportunism, not some devilish plot. Western Ukraine would turn to the west sooner, or later without US lifting a finger. After all Ukrainians only had to look at ex-soviet states that did not choose to remain aligned to Russia and see the stark contrast in living conditions and opportunities. Keep in mind that Ukraine has GDP per Capita of only $4000, while it's close neighbours like Latvia, Hungary, Lithuania or Poland average now $14000 and places like Czech Republic, Slovenia and Estonia are getting closer to income level of core EU states.
Lastly, prior to this crisis, the west wasn't really that keen on bringing Ukraine under its wing. It could have done so with ease in 2004, right after the Orange revolution, but the EU, was very slow to react. Nowadays the EU has plenty of its own problems and with the growing euroscepticism and negative attitudes towards immigration it will be much more difficult for Ukraine to join the EU, than it was for other ex-soviet countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Open_proxies
That kind of opportunism is what got us into a war that we had no reason to be in - Iraq. In addition, that kind of opportunism allowed the passage of the Patriot Act, which is a nasty document that invalidates half of America's constitutional rights, as long as the authority figure suspects terrorism or threats to national security, both which have very vague meanings and can be abused.
Opportunism is really just as bad as direct action, in my opinion - as they both share the same intent.
We'll have to agree to disagree I think. To each their own.
I bet you said this to the people who said the NSA and the US government were spying on everyone and everything before the NSA leaks came out, too.
It's really low of you to do - I didn't make outlandish claims that weren't supported by anything, I supported every single thing I said with sources. If you don't actually want to learn anything about the situation, then just don't post here.
You can still use a VPN.
Proxies and VPNs are not useful for trying to impersonate an IP address, they just tunnel traffic to and from a destination. You can't just use a VPN to make IP anything you want, the VPN needs a valid IP address in order to receive traffic and the destination (Wikipedia in this case) is going to see the IP address of the VPN. Meaning if you want it to look like the Russian government then you need a VPN/Proxy within the Russian government.
First of all edits done by somebody from russian televsion company (RTR/VGTRK). Scond thing is unedited version is just a lie (plane shot down by terrorists).
I know what is RTR and who own it.
PS.
Headline: «Jane Dow killed by US government».
Whats inside: John Dow is US army soldier -> He killed Jane Dow in his spare time -> He is US army soldier -> US army owned by US government -> Jane Dow killed by US government.
Whats actually happen: Jane Dow killed by John Dow. Nothing more.
If you feel this thread was wrongfully closed, email me personally here: adam(at)polycount(dot)com.