The situation in Ukraine
I am sorry for the politic thread here. I am really worried about this.
But what it is your thoughts about the situation in Ukraine? Is there indication for World war 3? Or it can be solved in diplomatic way?
But what it is your thoughts about the situation in Ukraine? Is there indication for World war 3? Or it can be solved in diplomatic way?
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The problem on Ukraine is not our problem, and with so open "support" for this "revolution" all small buisness will pay. Especially the ones that make their money on exporting to east.
Germany for that matter don't give a crap. They send few diplamtic notes and offered an well mediation, but nothing else. Buisness as usuall. Smart guys.
The fact is that Crime will be under Russian controll. And for that matter I would give it to them. It's least industrialized part of Ukraine that is completly depenand on external support (energy, food, water, etc0. And money here is mainly made on trourism.
I say. Let the Russia pay for all those things, and let's see how long they will be able to do so.
World War 3 ? And what buisness there would be in that ? Who would buy oil and gas from Russian if they would conquered Europe ?
More over you can't really make money, when all industry lay in ashes.
Russia saw opportunity to expand, even tried to bring in military to scare ukraine. Ukraine won't let go of it and has NATO to defend it if Russia tried anything, which it won't just because it's economy is already as bad as it is without loosing money income from EU.
if we want to seriously oppose russia we can't be beholden to them.
I will not be surprised if in 5 years I will not be able to access Polycount without proxy of some kind.
IF it was me, i'd send both western AND eastern (russian) politics to one way trip to Mars, and do your wars and stuff there, and leave poor people alone, they'll be much better on their own anyway...
I'm going to refrain from starting a flame war, because that isn't the purpose of this thread, but the US has been in a war for the past 13 years.
Now that that is out of the way, I'm not sure what to think about the situation in Ukraine, it's all a huge mess. Finding accurate news sources is difficult, everything goes from one radical side to another.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554
What happened in Ukraine was an illegitimate, unconstitutional overthrow of the government and the President Yanukovich (that were democratically elected by the Ukrainian people) - done so by russophobic, antisemitic, neo-nazi parties named "Svoboda" and the "Right Sector" with the help of EU and USA. This is the same scenario as in Kosovo, Syria, Lybia, and Egypt in terms of illegally overthrowing governments elected by the people to be replaced by US/EU puppets. And if you remember, Lybia was bombed back to the stone age by the West.
The Looting Of Ukraine Has Begun
[ame="
It's only going to escalate further. Go figure.
Why would most of the world pick sides for a country like Ukraine (sorry if that sounds mean), especially if the United Nations made no judgement?
Canada and many others would stay out of it like we did for Iraq and Vietnam.
Thanks so much for posting this!
I'm from that region myself, though not Russian, and I swear since it started none of this added up. I felt like there was something missing in the media they weren't telling us. This fills in that piece of the puzzle exactly.
"Truth is extreme, to make it subtle is to lie".
I was not trying to start a flame war. Everyone is trying to play to their political gain, and or advantage it seems like at the expense of Ukrain. One issue here is the downsizing of our military which has republicans in arms so now everyone is trying to spin. I dont get political they are both liars and cheats
To be honest, whats trustworthy in that link? Its just another variation trying to paint one side as the bad guys.
I see a lot of confirmation bias here but very little fact.
I also think its wrong to paint the protestors as neo-nazis though there certainly is a rise in that kind of socialism, it is far from encompassing the entire group. Like the protest in Egypt, it seems many groups are coming together with a common goal of getting rid of a corrupt leadership. What happens after will either put people back into their individual factions or keep them united against Russia's invasion, and it is that.
The agreement between Russia, China, the US and France was that Russia would not invade Ukraine. That was the treaty signed, and the objective fact is they went against that. So naturally its going to cause problems on an international front. China wants to let it slide because hey, they are doing it to, but at the same time they are getting a lot of resources, including weapons, from the Ukraine. Both the US and France are weak right now due to socialist leadership thats just tax and spend heavy.
The situation, regardless of side, is not good for international stability.
For a different perspective thats known for being a bit more independent, watch these:
[ame="
(part 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-hpUUk7EHc
(part 3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eTuFAR169s
Whats really worrysome is that in many of these protest we see popping up all around the world, including I remember one here in Los Angeles with mexican nationals demanding amnesty as well as the occupy wallstreet movement, is the presence of a black and red flag. The black is representing the creation of anarchy, where as the red is the rebuilding of either socialist or communist forms of government. I have to wonder if those waving those flags even know what it means, and if its unintentional. Dangerous stuff, and hopefully we wont have to repeat history over and over with each generation.
You are serious ? Really serious ? They were overthrown because people were sick of living in horrible conditions were you could spend rest of your life in jail because you don't agree with someone else. The goverment of Yanukovich was a sick and twisted circus.
Seriously what you wrote is either a joke or most stupid thing I read on the subject. What you wrote is on Russian press level. I really am not an expert in the subject but what you wrote I find disgusting.
edit: sorry for the emotional response but I do stand for what I wrote.
That may be true, but that doesn't contradict what she said, and the contents of that piece she linked.
Did you guys actually read it?
Combine what you said with a western-backed coup, and it paints a clear picture. True, people already had strong anti-establishment feelings. Which it looks like the western powers took advantage of to fan the flames and cause this situation.
You're not wrong. But neither was the information she linked.
I'd imagine that's because you're not too familiar with the players involved. True, it's someone's opinion on what's going on. But the facts are still facts. Like say the fact that Svoboda is involved and now has more power is telling. I don't need the author's opinion to interpret that point for myself.
I'm assuming you're American, maybe I shouldn't, but let's use that as an example. What if you were living abroad for many years, and then there's a sudden revolution. And it doesn't add up, but then you hear that a Confedarate party with ties to the klan gained power. And in addition you see that this new party was funded by a foreign country. It doesn't take much to form an opinion of your own as to what happened there.
I just find disgusting reducing this situation to logically flawed conspiracy theory. It's about freedom of a whole country not about some anti-establishment attitude shown by people thousands of kilometers away.
I imagine that's because you have whats known as a confirmation bias. Thus your reaction is more or less about seeing what you want to believe rather than whats actually happening.
You may have opinions, but base them on objective information, not a confirmation bais based belief. Whats known is that multiple groups are working together to throw out what they see as a corrupt government thats infringing on what they see as their rights. This does not mean they ideologically all agree with one another. To write it all off as some neo-nazi ploy or some western control scheme is being intellectually dishonest. It also doesnt take much to hold off forming an opinion until you can gather all the facts, but it does take disapline to not rush to conclusions and proove whatever bias you had from the get go.
yeah no writing off...
Writing something off means to reduce in value, as in to suggest that something isn't important. He was saying I'm writing off the entire revolution as a neo-Nazi ploy. Which would mean that I'm suggesting the revolution is insignificant or unimportant because of some "conspiracy theory". Yet nobody did anything of the sort. The revolution isn't any less important, or less genuine, just because a foreign power is also involved. It's simply adding another layer of complexity to it. Far from writing anything off.
One way or another I find it weird that people focus on possible influences from western countries (also I find articles like that bias and wrong) while Russia is moving troops through Ukraine. Taking military bases and lying that those are not Russian soldiers. Everybody knows those are Russian troops. They invaded another country. They are doing what they want. And here I can read that Germany is smart because they don't give a shit about the situation and revolution in Ukraine is a designed ploy.
Lets add not confirmed conspiracy theory to the mix. Sorry but an article which focuses on forcing you to belive in what they think to be true is not a reliable source.
My point is; its quite hard to get objective information. I'd say there's some rotten shit on both sides.
You're really ridiculous person: in your social page here (http://vk.com/vgermogenov) there are a lot of anti-USA and anti-western propagandic-groups named "USA - the sponsor of world terror" and "Anti-Wesern art". So why are you still live in the states, in the country which u name as "sponsor of terrorism" and hate it? Maybe it would be better if u emigrated back to russia?..
I've simply looked at the facts that can be verified, and ignore what cannot be verified.
inflict3d, why are you attacking Kot instead of addressing his arguments? That alone shows that you aren't actually willing to look into things for yourself, and instead listen to the official lies of the western media - which most people are tired of. WMD's in Iraq ring a bell? The US being the instigator of most world conflicts during the past 20 years is very worrying, not to mention the US is the only country with 500 military bases outside of its own borders, in over 100 different countries. This isn't even mentioning that the Obama administration is now openly funding the Syrian civil war, giving $500 million to Syrian rebels AND training them.
Russia has no such military bases, and they haven't invaded any countries and overthrown their governments either.
You seriously think that things like the fact that Joe Biden's son is now the head of one of Ukraine's most prominent gas companies', and over the course of the past year, their entire board of directors has been replaced by people from the west, is coincidence? That's just one piece of the puzzle.
Let's not forget these:
'Tape implies US leaning toward backing Poroschenko for Ukraine PM'
http://www.bne.eu/content/tape-implies-us-leaning-toward-backing-poroschenko-ukraine-pm
Then there is this suspicious meeting between John Kerry and three people who are now in positions of power in the new Ukrainian government, including Poroschenko. Picture was taken in February:
https://ph.news.yahoo.com/photos/klitschko-poroshenko-kerry-yatsenyuk-pose-picture-prior-meeting-photo-155125436.html
One of the people in the photos:
'He was a leading figure in the 20132014 Euromaidan protests, and he announced his possible candidacy for the Ukrainian presidency but later withdrew and endorsed Petro Poroshenko.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitali_Klitschko
inflict3d, are you also familiar with the fact that the Ukrainian government has been indiscriminately shelling residential areas? How can you support the Ukrainian government after knowing that?
'Shelling of Residential Areas First Change After Ukrainian Election'
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140527/190171136/Shelling-of-Residential-Areas-First-Change-After-Ukrainian.html
I'm tired of lying propaganda by Russian mass-media and all that anti-USA campaign. I'm from Belarus and, u know, i don't read Western-media, i trying to get all info from most independent sites and my friends from Ukraine. There are many people who see the chauvinistic aggression from Kremlin not only at Ukraine but even in Belarus.
I don't support the current Ukraine government and Russian ongoing politic at this region.
And last remark: russian.rt.com - is one of the most propagandic and lying resourses, just look at this idiotic articles - first about humanoids of Lake Baikal
(http://russian.rt.com/inotv/2013-11-24/Rassekrechennie-dokumenti-rasskazali-o-gumanoidah)
and second is fake news from "Before Its News" presented like real (they delete original article when independent masss media find out that fail):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://russian.rt.com/article/39432&ion=1&espv=2
Secondly, RT generally sources their information - stop falling for the propaganda that RT isn't legitimate. Again, look into things for yourself.
When children are being executed while there mothers are forced to watch and then subsequently executed the question becomes clear: How long do you let this continue?
Russia must invade Ukraine to avoid a full on civil war and stabilise the nation and worry about the "sanctions" later. Most of the people spouting self-righteous opinions from their comfortable homes far far away from this madness need to do a bit of soul searching. It is now too late for blame games and our coward leaders should grow a set and help the people in Ukraine, they had very little to begin with and now they have nothing but a ticking time bomb.
Russia should help her neighbour and stop worrying about Obama and Merkel's daft opinions. Again the antagonists, Europe & the USA should stop taking action against Russia and more action to help the people of Ukraine as they are the cause of this situation.
Whatever floats your boat...
BTW an hour ago plane was shot down. So much good stuff from Russia helping Ukraine by arming pro rus rebels.
I know you will write that there is no proof that they did it and I won't try to convince you. Probably there will be more facts about it soon... but you don't trust most of news sources so there is that... you can spin it however you like.
I promise I will stick to my resolution to not post in this thread anymore. Huh!
Well, not that i wanna really go into this debate but...usa has their army in almost every country on this globe, so that statement really is rather funny....
I still think it would be best if both sides (russia, usa) would work together, and fort start, stop accusing each sides of this and that.
There are reports from both sides, and while i don't really believe everything russians said, usa prooved time and again they like to lie a lot as well, so i can't really trust them either.
They should make joint mission or something, make sure to make temporary truce, and help both sides to start talks and negotiation.
It's kinda said how you see people on both sides saying how either russia or Usa(especially this, atlest russians are always seen as evil) are just trying to help, when it's at least to me very clear that both countries are just looking for their own interest, even if that destroys ukraine in the process, and i don't think neither russian and even less so usa gives a rat's ass about it...
It's just said that it's ukraine people who will pay for this "game"...
fuck.
I do wonder though...that area is pretty much a warzone...aren't there any regulations that does not allow flying over warzones? I mean that just sounds really dangerous....
295 people dead is really very sad indeed you have to think about it for a few minutes for the true scale of it to set in.
That is simply not true. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#Russian_Federation_.281991.E2.80.93present.29
Russia is quite active in the region. Just because western media ignores foreign conflicts, doesn't mean they do not happen.
Honestly, I'm quite baffled at people's comments regarding this conflict. I understand why someone might be anti-western these days, especially after the massive failures of Iraq and Afghanistan and the terrible foreign policy of the past two US administrations.
However, those who see Russia as some positive counterweight to USA's role in will be terribly disappointed. After all, we're speaking of a country, that just 22 years ago was a home to one of the worst regimes in human history. As someone from the region, I can still see the marks of communist occupation and it will be decades before Eastern Europe shakes off its effects.
I feel no hate towards the Russian people, as they suffered just as much as anyone in the former Soviet block, but to think that Russia as a country has really changed is just naive. The only reason why Russia is not acting more agressively is because they are currently unable to do so. Now however, with the US giving clear signs that it is not willing to act there's not telling which part of the world is going to heat up next.
Overall this whole conflict is nothing more but an extension of Cold War and just like the war in Syria it is a proxy conflict between Russia and the US. Both sides are funelling money into warring parties and both sides have a vested interest in gaining influence in these regions. With US hegemony failing, it is only obvious that a challenger would appear. And in this case, no one is a better challenger than a country that never formally lost.
They've posted their victory statement to a local social media site and taken it offline by now - but it's of course archived in Google's caches.
So a tragic misunderstanding; but one that was only possible because they had SAMs. This is probably going to escalate now.
Twitter of the man working in air traffic control in one of the Ukranian airports.
https://twitter.com/spainbuca?original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kp.ru%2Fonline%2Fnews%2F1795065%2F&tw_i=489813837013848065&tw_p=tweetembed
For those who cant be bothered to translate, guy says there was 2 Ukrainian jets seen before 777 disappeared of the radar.
I guess that sums it up pretty well. So called separatists have found "black box". I guess its matter of time until we find out what really happened.
So many bullshit, crap and lie in one message. Bravo. Looks like you are the one who wear tin foil hat :thumbup:
us wants to invade ukraine with nato forces and whats happen right now is a very good reason for that.
Today's tragic accident is almost certainly a misunderstanding, but it is the direct result of his actions.