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The Ramifications of not learning Sculpting Programs?

1
I have been studying how to model things for at least 6 years, I do all my modeling in 3Ds Max. Max is a program I know very well and I would rather not change all though I'm sure I could to similar programs. But Zbrush and Mudbox are completely different tools, I figured because I do not model organic things too much like Characters that I can just ignore them and continue to fine tune my skills in Max.

My question though, if I continue to go down this path of learning 3D modeling and art by not learning how to use Zbrush/Mudbox, will I never succeed as a game artist?

Replies

  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Besides organic modeling, you are also missing out on great blockout tools by ignoring Z and Mud. They let you throw together reference shapes very easily, and thats a huge advantage for mechanical modeling.

    Why wouldn't you want to be curious about these programs anyways ? Mudbox takes about an hour to learn.
  • SurlyBird
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    SurlyBird polycounter lvl 13
    At least familiarize yourself with the workflow. You might surprise yourself with what you find.
  • Gestalt
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    Gestalt polycounter lvl 11
    Sculpting has a pretty significant place within 3D. Why would you not at least learn the basics of it? It really isn't a tall order to learn the basics of it. Knowing the sculpting tools and the potential of what they have to offer should be something that I'd think you'd want, no?

    Sculptris is free and it has similar navigation to ZBrush. You can get a good feel for sculpting using it, and probably learn a lot about form in a way that you wouldn't with poly modeling. You say you do hard-surfaces but why wouldn't you want to be able to do organics?
  • Bibendum
    You're not "changing" programs really, Zbrush/Mudbox are there to compliment/augment existing workflows. Whether or not you can succeed without it really depends on how good/fast you are without it.

    Worth noting though that resisting new things isn't a very good philosophy for improving.
  • 1magus
    Pior I just assumed these programs are for Character Modeling, and I'm really more of an Enviorement/ Object (I like to call them props but I'm not sure if that is the right term) Artist.
  • gsokol
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    gsokol polycounter lvl 14
    1magus wrote: »
    Pior I just assumed these programs are for Character Modeling, and I'm really more of an Enviorement/ Object (I like to call them props but I'm not sure if that is the right term) Artist.

    Sculpting programs are most definitely useful for an environment artist. Don't knock it 'till you try it.
  • uboy
    Bibendum is correct, sculpting programs don't necessarily replace 3ds Max. Most people use sculpting programs to import models you made in another program, detail them, and generate maps to use in other programs.

    I'd strongly recommend at least becoming familiar with how a sculpting program works in a pipeline.
  • 1magus
    Gestalt wrote: »
    Sculpting has a pretty significant place within 3D. Why would you not at least learn the basics of it? It really isn't a tall order to learn the basics of it. Knowing the sculpting tools and the potential of what they have to offer should be something that I'd think you'd want, no?

    Sculptris is free and it has similar navigation to ZBrush. You can get a good feel for sculpting using it, and probably learn a lot about form in a way that you wouldn't with poly modeling. You say you do hard-surfaces but why wouldn't you want to be able to do organics?

    Because it is a long road to learn, I understand the use of it but as Artist teams get bigger and bigger I just thought that there can be specialized artists for Characters and ones for Environments?
  • 1magus
    I can try but which one? I just want to make video games.. at this point I don't care how professional or Indie, I just want to be proud of something big or small. So which program can I go far enough with?
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    Sculptris is awesome for starting out and learning the basics, and there's lots of environment uses for sculpting.
  • 1magus
    ZacD wrote: »
    Sculptris is awesome for starting out and learning the basics, and there's lots of environment uses for sculpting.

    Well you know my environments I really meant things like "Buildings, weapons, props, vehicles, etc.." Would it still be useful?
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 10
    yes. Its good for damage and debris.
  • MadnessImport
    Yes it'd still be useful, You can make the same things you do in max with a sculptor, you'll just have to approach it in a totally different way

    Watch some tutorials, try the demos, see for yourself. The programs are fun to play with and nice to have around
  • eld
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    eld polycounter lvl 18
    Sculpting programs are vastly more easy to learn than 3d programs, you'll have to bring your own luggage of art skills just as much the same though.

    So don't worry as much about the program as the actual artistic skills required.
  • Sandro
    Not learning sculpting apps won't do you harm if you are already fast and kicking ass with subd modeling. However, hesitation to test out and play around with new tools and workflows will :}
  • lefix
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    lefix polycounter lvl 11
    I think you kind of need to constantly keep up with all the new tools and technologies. Just a couple years of not learning any of the new stuff will most likely put you behind.
    Ideally, you should be interested in all that anyway and have fun trying out all the new cool stuff.
  • RyanB
    Pretty much a "must learn" if you are applying for a job. There's a steep learning curve but the payoff is huge.
  • Torch
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    Torch polycounter
    It'll most likely be required in a job that you want down the line so I'd recommend learning it asap. What happens if you need to sculpt some figure statues for an environment piece - You want to model a human character with clothing and cracks along the surface? I'd stick with ZB or Mudbox for that :D

    It sounds like you don't want to take the time to learn it because you think it'll take too long. I had the exact same attitude with traditional art, now I'm kicking myself because of it and starting self teaching the basics recently. Trust me, start now so you won't regret not starting sooner.
  • PogoP
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    PogoP polycounter lvl 10
    I use Zbrush occasionally at work, and consider myself capable but not an expert. Sometimes, Zbrush is just the best and easiest way to get a texture/asset made. get learning! :)
  • SnowInChina
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    SnowInChina interpolator
    1magus wrote: »
    Well you know my environments I really meant things like "Buildings, weapons, props, vehicles, etc.." Would it still be useful?

    the darksiders2 contest is a good example why you should at least know the basics of sculpting
  • Andreas
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    Andreas polycounter lvl 11
    Yes as an environment artist you definitely need to learn a sculpting package.
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    just learn it, only took me about a day to get the basics of zbrush down.

    it's best to know th basics of everything so you can decide per asset or project what approach is best to accomplish the result you want.

    so you really should know the basic of zbrush or mudbox, and maybe even know how to get some stuff from ndo2
  • JacqueChoi
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    JacqueChoi polycounter
    I think you're closing a lot of doors, but it's really not as important as a lot of people on here would let you believe.

    I think a lot of film/FX studios still have no need for Zbrush.


    Most of what I use Zbrush for is doing fine-detailing organic surfaces. I know quite a few other artists who work in a similar way.




    In the end it's a tool like any other tool. You should learn it, and use it for what you need it for.
  • lefix
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    lefix polycounter lvl 11
    i watched a gnomon intro to zbrush dvd over the course of a weekend and ended up knowing alot more than i needed for everday use.
    there is no need to be afraid of the software, mudbox or sculptris are even easier.
    the hardest part is the sculpting itself, but it is also the most fun part of this job :D
  • 1magus
    JacqueChoi wrote: »
    I think you're closing a lot of doors, but it's really not as important as a lot of people on here would let you believe.

    I think a lot of film/FX studios still have no need for Zbrush.


    Most of what I use Zbrush for is doing fine-detailing organic surfaces. I know quite a few other artists who work in a similar way.




    In the end it's a tool like any other tool. You should learn it, and use it for what you need it for.

    I hope you don't mind that I added you from your public MSN, I had some questions about this statement.
  • skankerzero
    learn how to model in 3dmax or maya first, then layer zbrush or mudbox over that.

    Too many people here rely too much on zbrush that they forget what good topology is when making their lowpoly.

    zbrush and mudbox won't make you a better artist, but they won't hurt you either..
  • 1magus
    learn how to model in 3dmax or maya first, then layer zbrush or mudbox over that.

    Too many people here rely too much on zbrush that they forget what good topology is when making their lowpoly.

    zbrush and mudbox won't make you a better artist, but they won't hurt you either..

    I have learned how to model and master 3DS Max as well as I can. I can make the most basic model for a game with the fewest polygons as clean as it can possible get, or an extremely complex model that is very clean than UV map and texture it; I can even do some basic animations if needed.
  • skankerzero
    well if you have your basics down, the I suggest you learn how to sculpt.

    There are many applications for it when dealing with 'current' pipelines. Meaning stuff that's normal mapped and all that.

    I haven't touched a sculpting package since going to a company that handpaints everything. (and I don't miss sculpting either)
  • 1magus
    well if you have your basics down, the I suggest you learn how to sculpt.

    There are many applications for it when dealing with 'current' pipelines. Meaning stuff that's normal mapped and all that.

    I haven't touched a sculpting package since going to a company that handpaints everything. (and I don't miss sculpting either)

    Well what do you do than if I may ask?
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    Skanker is a lead character artist at KingsIsle Entertainment, their games use hand painted textures instead of normal maps and high detail sculpts.
  • 1magus
    ZacD wrote: »
    Skanker is the a lead character artist at KingsIsle Entertainment, their games use hand painted textures instead of normal maps and high detail sculpts.

    You know it just seems like these Sculpting programs are really geared for Character Art; which is great if you are that kind of Artist but I don't do characters, I can try Zbrush sure but I don't see how a super super detailed high poly version of my models helps for game development other than Normal Map Creation?
  • Ferg
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    Ferg polycounter lvl 17
    Stop making excuses and just learn it dude. It's a valuable tool for props and environment work, and could easily make the difference between you or someone else (who does know zbrush) getting a certain job. I've worked as a character artist, a prop artist, and an environment artist, and I've used zbrush in all three. It's about as important a skill as you can have without it being mandatory.
  • skankerzero
    Well, I used to be a lead, but right now I'm a senior character artist.
    1magus wrote: »
    You know it just seems like these Sculpting programs are really geared for Character Art; which is great if you are that kind of Artist but I don't do characters, I can try Zbrush sure but I don't see how a super super detailed high poly version of my models helps for game development other than Normal Map Creation?

    You would use it to sculpt things like terrain, rocks, vines, craters, damage, etc. Making environments / props / guns is much more than just hard surface modeling.

    Say you have something similar to the leaked Doom 4 environments. Something like a building with a giant tentacle torn through it. You would use zbrush to sculpt out the damage and tentacle.

    Character artists aren't the only ones that do 'organic' work.

    You can also use the software to help you visualize something in 3D. For the lowpoly mutant league challenge, I used mudbox to quickly go in and push a sphere into a shape for my mutant's head. I didn't do any more work than that, but it was enough to take it back into max and build my low mesh to those proportions.

    Sculpting tools are much more than high detail. You can use them to texture too. 3DCoat has an amazing set of texturing tools that you really can't do in photoshop. At least not as easily.
  • 1magus
    I never said I was not going to learn this, apprently I have to :poly117:. But I cant do characters, I hardly understand the finer details of a human so I would rather focus on what I know if you all say this is useful for what I'm learning than I can check it out but I was doing fine before this, I was doing great so this is why I'm so annoyed.
  • Del
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    Del polycounter lvl 9
    Judging from your responses; 1Magus.

    It seems like you're contesting anyone who isn't telling you what you want to hear; and trying to retrieve more information from anyone who mildly supports the idea that requires the least amount of work.
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    This thread should show you the power of including sculpting into enviroment work.

    http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90110
  • skankerzero
    1magus wrote: »
    I never said I was not going to learn this, apprently I have to :poly117:. But I cant do characters, I hardly understand the finer details of a human so I would rather focus on what I know if you all say this is useful for what I'm learning than I can check it out but I was doing fine before this, I was doing great so this is why I'm so annoyed.

    The sooner you get 'sculpting = organic = character only' out of your head the better.
  • 1magus
    The sooner you get 'sculpting = organic = character only' out of your head the better.

    I never said organic meant character only but every example that keeps popping up shows nothing but characters, go look on the gaming section of the Zbrush site.
  • Ferg
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    Ferg polycounter lvl 17
    1magus wrote: »
    I never said organic meant character only but every example that keeps popping up show nothing but characters, go look on the gaming section of the Zbrush site.

    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
    ZacD wrote: »
    This thread should show you the power of including sculpting into enviroment work.

    http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90110
  • lefix
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    lefix polycounter lvl 11
    well, you may also do cracks in stone pillars, scratches and dents in metal blades, etc.
    and all kinds of texture projections.
  • Shadownami92
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    Shadownami92 polycounter lvl 7
    Yeah I think that thread also points out a good use of sculpting programs. Zbrush is great for making tilable textures I think Eat3d has a good tutorial on using Zbrush to make a tilable rubble texture, overall smaller details like dents and cracks are easier to do in a sculpting program too.

    There are just certain types of details that I find a lot harder to make in a 3d program than in a sculpting program.

    For environments a workflow could be like this... model trash can in max or maya -> dent it up and maybe add some grungy layering -> retopo in max or maya or a retopo program -> bake maps.

    Honestly if your wondering if you should use it or not, why not just trying learning it, if you say you know how to use your modeling app well enough that you don't think you need a sculpting program, than you have no real loss from learning how to use a sculpting program and find out for yourself if there are ways that you can use it to improve your models and speed up your workflow.
  • skankerzero
    1magus wrote: »
    I never said organic meant character only but every example that keeps popping up shows nothing but characters, go look on the gaming section of the Zbrush site.

    that's because people usually find characters more interesting to look at than environment objects.
  • Snacuum
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    Snacuum polycounter lvl 9
    1magus it seems like you're interested in being told that what skills you have are "enough" to get a job or to do the work you're showing interest in (environments)

    There's no such thing as enough. Everyone else here knows this. I'm learned this recently.

    In fact I'm building a creature that's completely geometric and not organic or soft, I have rudimentary zbrush skills but I'm building it using traditional poly-pushing in max just like you and me are comfortable with. But I already know that I could have made it even better if I had more sculpting knowledge, even for (especially for) hard-surface models.

    I'm going to be happy with what I made, but it is never going to be enough.
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Hello ?

    By the time you are done telling us that you don't want to use them, you could have downloaded the demos and gotten used to both Z and Mud. By now you most likely would have seen how useful these programs could be - by actually trying them.
  • Gestalt
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    Gestalt polycounter lvl 11
    Snacuum wrote: »
    There's no such thing as enough.

    Exactly. Resistance to learning new things is probably one of the last things you want in this field. No one will tell you what you know is enough, if that's what you want to hear, you could always know more and the more you know the better perspective you have.

    You say you do hard-surface, but if you want normal map details that describe the form of what you are making, and not just layered on as textured detail, then you are probably going to need a high poly bake.

    If you were, for example, making wood stairs, you would notice that most wood stairs have a worn bevel to them, something which is optimal to do in a sculpting program.

    http://www.alecmoody.com/8/4.jpg

    These types of hard-surface details make the form convincing, and they are very easy to do in a sculpting program.
  • MadnessImport
    Its looking like you don't actually want to learn a sculpting app
    And using character/Organic modeling as a reason not too

    Why not think about using it for sculpting environment related assets and Not even considering organics! Tharz a thought!

    Its not that you wont succeed by NOT learning either of the 2 its just that you'd be better off learning one of the two, its fun faster and most people who use them get godly results from there practices.
  • 1magus
  • Jonas Ronnegard
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    Jonas Ronnegard polycount sponsor
    Learn sculpting, no excuses, it will come in handy even if your not a character artist, I know times were i thought it was a bit over to drag this small prop into a zbrush, and ending up annoyed later because I couldn't get the right feeling to the material without the dept you can get in zbrush, and even if you can it will probably save you a lot of time.

    Saying that environment artist don't need to know a sculpting program kinda shocks me especially when looking forward, outside environments tend to be quite organic, also even if it isn't organic it's great for damage and different kind of deformations to metal and such, nothing is rarely 100% straight or flat.

    I was recently at about 20 interviews in Japan, and many of them asked how well I know zbrush and If i could teach how to get it into a Environment creation workflow to fellow artists, so looks like it's not such a bad thing to know.
  • Autocon
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    Autocon polycounter lvl 15
    1magus wrote: »
    I have learned how to model and master 3DS Max as well as I can.

    I dont want to be a dick here but that is just a ridiculous statement. There are always new things to learn and master in any software package. You should never feel you have mastered something as well as you can or you will never push yourself and challenge yourself to become better. You will just remain content with what you think you have mastered and become stagnant and things will pass you by.

    Not to mention judging by your work you are very far from mastering the capability's of Max. You still have a lot to learn and improve on so dont think you have mastered Max or you wont grow or learn new things!

    For now thought I would suggest working on becoming more proficient in Max before trying to also learn sculpting programs. You dont want to overwhelm yourself with trying to become a better modeler, texturer and trying to add sculptor onto of that.




    Sculpting is a tool, like Max is a tool. You dont have to learn or use it but it is a great tool to have in your arsenal. If you dont want to learn it, dont.

    An artist with just a pencil can get by fine, but you just have to realize you will run into artists who use a pencil and a paintbrush, and they will be your competition for a job.
  • 1magus
    That last post is about the most mature I have seen so far.
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