im starting to like blender for animation and and i like the tools it has for exporting to source engine.
but lack of ngon support and lack of a few tools really kills it for using it as a modeler. I dont leave many ngons or tris in final models but some techniques i use require that i temporally have a ngon to make certain shapes. a key example of this would be chamfering a vertex to make a hole in the mesh.
but i do have to say for some simple skeleton animation for games i like blender more than Maya.
and the defualt keys arnt bad but i made some changes like switching nav controls over to a alt+rmb,mmb,lmb set and adding in the double click edge loop selection. and double click mesh selection.
though i wish there was a way to get animations between blender and maya the scale and rotation is messed up if i use collada and the skinning is messed up if i use fbx.
@Super Happy Cow: I agree with you about the shortcuts, but there's definitely some inconsistency in Blender too (some weird shortcuts like ctrl+alt+shift+c, and some inconsistent things like unwrapping in the 3D view with u, but unwrapping in the UV editor with e, or using ctrl+shift+tab in the 3D view, but not being able to use it in the UV editor). I agree with you that it's definitely better, but let's not whitewash it :P
@greevar: I'm not sure I completely agree with you. Certainly, ngons definitely tend to produce messier meshes if you aren't careful (some of the meshes I deal with at work are horribly mangled), but using ngons in a lot of cases is really fast compared to not having them, particularly when dealing with any arbitrary forms or geometry. Also, on my highpoly meshes I'd kill for ngons since my cleanliness matters little in many cases.
Perhaps, but can you really complain when what you do get is this good and free? I think it's a small sacrifice for getting such a great tool for nothing. Besides, they are working on it. So it's not like ngons will never be part of Blender. I'd say, be patient and just work around the limitations for now. Everything else about it is gravy IMHO.
Ace is right, we can't have it both ways. Blender is either professional and competent enough to receive valid criticism (something I definitely believe), or it's just a hobby tool that's free, so you can't complain, but it can't be both.
Personally, I think Blender has grown to something that is competent enough to put it in the big leagues, and thus, it needs to be able to take (and use) valid criticism. Not complaining because it's free I think is fairly demeaning to the coders who work on it.
I don't understand why people keep on saying "We should bypass Ngons" or "Ngons, I never used them" because it must be next to damn hard to try and AVOID Ngons. You're going to want to have them in your model, atelast for a temporary solution when you're blocking out the silhouette of your model or hard surface object, or when you're cutting, decided to leave on part Ngon till you finish Quading before you Tri off the Ngon.
Avoiding Ngons is like avoiding triangles, yes you can do it, but the payoff is very little for the effort.
I'm not bashing Blender for this point mind you, the guys could very well be staying away from Ngons because it will drop performance if they included Ngons for all I know, but people who try and defend this point must have a very rigid workflow for their models, and that isn't very healthy for innovation and progress...especially for a growing program like Blender.
I don't understand why people keep on saying "We should bypass Ngons" or "Ngons, I never used them" because it must be next to damn hard to try and AVOID Ngons. You're going to want to have them in your model, atelast for a temporary solution when you're blocking out the silhouette of your model or hard surface object, or when you're cutting, decided to leave on part Ngon till you finish Quading before you Tri off the Ngon.
Avoiding Ngons is like avoiding triangles, yes you can do it, but the payoff is very little for the effort.
I'm not bashing Blender for this point mind you, the guys could very well be staying away from Ngons because it will drop performance if they included Ngons for all I know, but people who try and defend this point must have a very rigid workflow for their models, and that isn't very healthy for innovation and progress...especially for a growing program like Blender.
I think the only reason Blender doesn't have Ngons right now is because the mesh code is so old (15yrs+, iirc)
I'm not sure I can agree with your statement that people who dont use NGons must have a rigid workflow...Its just a different way of modelling. Bob Ross used 1-2' paint brushes, but i wouldn't say that they blocked his innovation.
Not having NGons just forces you to plan ahead, but its not like you have to spend 30 mins visualising a mesh before you can make a model. We model at the same speed as everyone else, but have developed a different set of habits to someone who uses Ngons. Are they really that much quicker if you have to clean the mesh later anyway?
You can still block out shapes and fill holes rapidly (Blender just fills with tris. natively or you can bridge with quads).
I can see the benefits of the mesh looking cleaner, however.
I assume you mean this in terms of the low poly mesh...
I don't think I've ever created an n-gon while modelling... in what kind of situation would it arise?
You've never created a face with more than 4 sides to it while modeling? I don't see how that's possible unless you mean you've just never left one in a finished model.
I guess so... I guess maybe I always just immediately create faces in Blender using the hotkey... I find you have to approach modelling different in every package... if I went and tried to make an ngon in blender, it would work? Like if I added a vertex to a circle say? Or would it automatically create a triangle or something...
You've never created a face with more than 4 sides to it while modeling? I don't see how that's possible unless you mean you've just never left one in a finished model.
I guess so... I guess maybe I always just immediately create faces in Blender using the hotkey... I find you have to approach modelling different in every package... if I went and tried to make an ngon in blender, it would work? Like if I added a vertex to a circle say? Or would it automatically create a triangle or something...
You cant create faces with more than 4 sides in Blender. Everything is created as tris or quads.
I think this argument is a bit silly. Undoubtedly, Blender would be better with ngons than without. Since when has giving people a choice of workflow ever been a bad thing? If you don't like ngons for some reason, fine, use ctrl+t, but for everyone else, it can drastically increase the speed of modeling. Having started with Blender, I used to argue from a similar position, but now that I have used Max and Maya extensively (I tend to use all three), I can see their value and would really appreciate their inclusion in Blender. It doesn't make you less of a purist, it just lets you get things done faster. The main reason that ngons really help is because they allow you to define form without worrying much about your topo until you need to, so they do save you a lot of time. In addition, when coupled with grease pencil, I can foresee a lot of interesting uses for sketching out geometry.
I just don't see the usefulness of ngons. If you are going to end in quads, why not start with quads? If you use ngons, you have to put in effort to turn them into quads and triangles. Why not just put in quads and triangles to start with? A triangle(s) attached to a quad would net you similar results, and it still permits you to add edge loops through them. You will likely rotate the edges inside the ngon into a quad and tri pattern anyway, so why bother?
Nevertheless, I think Blender is the best package you can get for a budget of zero. It's easily worth as much as the Zbrush price tag, it may be even worth the Max price tag. Although, I'm so glad it's free.
i find it funny that when an actually valid criticism about blender comes around that a lot of people punk out with the excuses.
fyi, blender was the first 3d-modelling program i ever used, and i love it. but to say that ngon support wouldnt be usefull is foolish. i have to wonder how much modelling you actually do inside blender. otoh what blender really needs is a long hard look at its modelling tools in general which have been suffering as of late. can you model anything you can think of? probably but are certain things unnecessarily tedious? they definitely are. bevelling, certain types of scaling(although you can get around this with the 3d cursor and special transform orientations, but again it can get tedious for complex stuff), edge loop placement (ngons make edge loop creation easier) could all benefit from ngons and improvements to all the basic modelling tools.
that said i just recently watched a maya video on uv unwrapping a shotgun .. and all i have to say is .. maya users, i am SO sorry for you!
i find it funny that when an actually valid criticism about blender comes around that a lot of people punk out with the excuses.
Cognitive dissonance is the cause of it. I just realized that I was just suffering from that very affliction. I had to rationalize my choice in software by determining that it is superior to others and when faced with dissenting opinion, I immediately reacted by trying to defend the choice that I had taken as better than others. I had so much so, that I refuse to find fault in any of its design. It's not the first time this has happened for me. It likely won't be the last. So the debate spirals down to reductio ad absurdum until Godwin's Law kicks in.
The truth is, I just prefer Blender because it "feels right" when I use it. I have a mind that works well with a bilateral control scheme. So I like it.
Cutting in your own edges in maya etc. you just cut where you want, put the edges where you want. Trying to do this in Blender it then triangulates ngons you were left with (that you were going to cut into quads manually). Instead of just cutting an edge between two verts in the ngon, you have to delete the faces it's put in, then select the edges you want and fill them to create the final geometry you wanted. Having ngon support in Blender would streamline that a bit, which would be nice.
I'm looking at moving all (or close to all) my modeling back over to Blender once Bmesh is in, and I love the program. But it does need some TLC in some areas and ngon support is one, which would also open the modeling tools up to further improvements.
And yes, comparing UV mapping in maya and blender.......please don't take blender away from me!
Yeah. Blender's unwrapping is straight dope compared to other progs I've used, but yeah. Ngons would be nice. The kutting thing does not make me happy. and modeling high poly assets is certainly not as easy in Blender.
If it had more tools suited for high res stuff and ngons on top of that I'd love Blender so much that I'd marry it. :]
What sort of modelling tools does everyone want in Blender?
It might be an idea to get some ideas logged down, so we can point devs. in the right direction
I think the only reason Blender doesn't have Ngons right now is because the mesh code is so old (15yrs+, iirc)
I'm not sure I can agree with your statement that people who dont use NGons must have a rigid workflow...Its just a different way of modelling. Bob Ross used 1-2' paint brushes, but i wouldn't say that they blocked his innovation.
Not having NGons just forces you to plan ahead, but its not like you have to spend 30 mins visualising a mesh before you can make a model. We model at the same speed as everyone else, but have developed a different set of habits to someone who uses Ngons. Are they really that much quicker if you have to clean the mesh later anyway?
You can still block out shapes and fill holes rapidly (Blender just fills with tris. natively or you can bridge with quads).
I can see the benefits of the mesh looking cleaner, however.
Yeah MetalAndy, you're right, sorry that I got steamed for this point, I shouldn't have, apologize for bashing everyone on this point sorry.
It's just that with all the bashing people are putting on Ngons just to defend Blender is getting on my ticks. I mean having workflow without Ngons is one thing, but it rubs me the wrong way when someone says "Hey, why do you need Ngons?"...it just sounds tacky and uncalled for...kinda like my previous comment now that I look on it.
What sort of modelling tools does everyone want in Blender?
It might be an idea to get some ideas logged down, so we can point devs. in the right direction
A nice set of polyboost tools would nice (although I'm pretty sure Blender already has them).
I thought this already exist?.. sure you can't mirror bone weights after weight painting but if you've correctly named the bones you can mirror the weights while painting using the x-mirror option on the brush menu.
Yeah MetalAndy, you're right, sorry that I got steamed for this point, I shouldn't have, apologize for bashing everyone on this point sorry.
<snip>
A nice set of polyboost tools would nice (although I'm pretty sure Blender already has them).
It's cool man LoopTools is now distributed with Blender and i made a Fastloop script a while back, if that is of any use
Eh. Some things in general that Blender should have:
<Snip>
Nice list!
I had a quick look through and off the top of my head you can do some of this already
ability to select vertex group by faces rather than fundementally as vertex points:-
You can assign vertex groups like this already. To assign vertex groups, select the faces/verts and then go to > Object Data> Vertex Groups> Hit the + and then hit Assign.
To select them, just hit select.
Is that what you meant?
Seams from islands :-
I fixed this script the other day and have contacted the devs. about getting it included back into contrib. You can get it here
editing of proportional falloff:- You can do this already
(In Edit Mode)
object name editor:-
You can already change the names of Objects in the Properties panel (N) and the Object Data Panel
edges to curve:- You can do this by hitting Alt C in Object mode
clean meshes:- You do do some of this already. Remove Doubles (W), will remove any duplicated edges/verts and if you unassign Mats, vert groups etc. and then save your .Blend, the next time you open Blender (or the .Blend) they will be deleted.
A nice set of polyboost tools would nice (although I'm pretty sure Blender already has them).
I looked up polyboost and Blender has most of those features built in. There's plenty of other free plugins you can find that will add other useful functionality too. Oh, I also found a nifty site called Blendswap: http://www.blendswap.com/
I think if we gathered ALL the cool scripts from Max at Scriptspot and made a repository of sorts for the authors of Blender to take a look at, it would work wonders.
I know that a nice PolyBridge tool from miauu would serve many well (unless Blender has it already).
I think if we gathered ALL the cool scripts from Max at Scriptspot and made a repository of sorts for the authors of Blender to take a look at, it would work wonders.
I know that a nice PolyBridge tool from miauu would serve many well (unless Blender has it already).
ability to select vertex group by faces rather than fundementally as vertex points:-
I dont see those problems you are having with vertex groups. Can you post a pic?
To convert an edge to a curve go Alt+C >Curve from Mesh/Text.
It only works on edges though so there cant be any connected faces. It looks like it converts the edges into paths but it doesn't seem to convert correctly. It has all the curve properties but isnt smooth...odd. Maybe a bug?
Im glad you like the seams from islands...i was beginning to think i was the only person who used it :P
I think if we gathered ALL the cool scripts from Max at Scriptspot and made a repository of sorts for the authors of Blender to take a look at, it would work wonders.
I know that a nice PolyBridge tool from miauu would serve many well (unless Blender has it already).
As greevar pointed out Looptools> Bridge (Looptools is in the official release now too )
attached an animated gif showing off the problem, basically i run into what i think the problem he is talking about when i have a heavily triangulated mesh and i make a vertex group that is a bit jagged.
when you reselect the vertex group it will select the triangle inbetween two triangles currently in the vert group.
2.58 is out guys They added a bunch of cool stuff like, A Warp Modifier, Multi-resolution Render Baking, Empty Images Display, New Constructive modifiers for Sculpting, Mesh Inset and Camera Locking http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-258/
I think im most excited about the Empty Images Display feature...it basically allows you to add blueprints in a similar way to max etc.
I just thought I would spam this thread a bit, to tell everyone that I have just updated my Polysphere and Chainmail scripts so that they both work in 2.58.
I just thought I would spam this thread a bit, to tell everyone that I have just updated my Polysphere and Chainmail scripts so that they both work in 2.58.
Damn, now we've got a full set of baking options. The new inset, and painting palettes are a huge workflow boosts for me.. and it's about time we got a camera lock!
The new render baking features sound great... so basically I can use a shader from the blender material depository and bake the whole thing down to maps?
The new render baking features sound great... so basically I can use a shader from the blender material depository and bake the whole thing down to maps?
take duplicated mesh turn it into a cage mesh, set it to render target done
the duplicated mesh will have the same uvcoords because you were a smarty and unwrapped the original model before all of this.
This wouldn't change the way in which Blender uses uniform ray distances to control ray termination, and any distortion that you get when you scale along the normals (for the cage) would be transferred onto the bake. Also the vert. normals would be different, which would cause shading errors on the LP because the normal map was baked for a different mesh.
I wish they'd write up a quick 'how-to' with each feature, as I'm incurably lazy Like, how do I even use the new Empty Images display? I created an empty, do I then go to the texture channel and pick an image? The provided image in the log doesnt suggest so...
I wish they'd write up a quick 'how-to' with each feature, as I'm incurably lazy Like, how do I even use the new Empty Images display? I created an empty, do I then go to the texture channel and pick an image? The provided image in the log doesnt suggest so...
Make an empty, click on object data in the tabs pane, and select image from the dropdown. Click open and take your pick.
Replies
but lack of ngon support and lack of a few tools really kills it for using it as a modeler. I dont leave many ngons or tris in final models but some techniques i use require that i temporally have a ngon to make certain shapes. a key example of this would be chamfering a vertex to make a hole in the mesh.
but i do have to say for some simple skeleton animation for games i like blender more than Maya.
and the defualt keys arnt bad but i made some changes like switching nav controls over to a alt+rmb,mmb,lmb set and adding in the double click edge loop selection. and double click mesh selection.
though i wish there was a way to get animations between blender and maya the scale and rotation is messed up if i use collada and the skinning is messed up if i use fbx.
Perhaps, but can you really complain when what you do get is this good and free? I think it's a small sacrifice for getting such a great tool for nothing. Besides, they are working on it. So it's not like ngons will never be part of Blender. I'd say, be patient and just work around the limitations for now. Everything else about it is gravy IMHO.
I would like a better cut tool though...:\
Personally, I think Blender has grown to something that is competent enough to put it in the big leagues, and thus, it needs to be able to take (and use) valid criticism. Not complaining because it's free I think is fairly demeaning to the coders who work on it.
Avoiding Ngons is like avoiding triangles, yes you can do it, but the payoff is very little for the effort.
I'm not bashing Blender for this point mind you, the guys could very well be staying away from Ngons because it will drop performance if they included Ngons for all I know, but people who try and defend this point must have a very rigid workflow for their models, and that isn't very healthy for innovation and progress...especially for a growing program like Blender.
I think the only reason Blender doesn't have Ngons right now is because the mesh code is so old (15yrs+, iirc)
I'm not sure I can agree with your statement that people who dont use NGons must have a rigid workflow...Its just a different way of modelling. Bob Ross used 1-2' paint brushes, but i wouldn't say that they blocked his innovation.
Not having NGons just forces you to plan ahead, but its not like you have to spend 30 mins visualising a mesh before you can make a model. We model at the same speed as everyone else, but have developed a different set of habits to someone who uses Ngons. Are they really that much quicker if you have to clean the mesh later anyway?
You can still block out shapes and fill holes rapidly (Blender just fills with tris. natively or you can bridge with quads).
I can see the benefits of the mesh looking cleaner, however.
I assume you mean this in terms of the low poly mesh...
I don't think I've ever created an n-gon while modelling... in what kind of situation would it arise?
You've never created a face with more than 4 sides to it while modeling? I don't see how that's possible unless you mean you've just never left one in a finished model.
You cant create faces with more than 4 sides in Blender. Everything is created as tris or quads.
Nevertheless, I think Blender is the best package you can get for a budget of zero. It's easily worth as much as the Zbrush price tag, it may be even worth the Max price tag. Although, I'm so glad it's free.
fyi, blender was the first 3d-modelling program i ever used, and i love it. but to say that ngon support wouldnt be usefull is foolish. i have to wonder how much modelling you actually do inside blender. otoh what blender really needs is a long hard look at its modelling tools in general which have been suffering as of late. can you model anything you can think of? probably but are certain things unnecessarily tedious? they definitely are. bevelling, certain types of scaling(although you can get around this with the 3d cursor and special transform orientations, but again it can get tedious for complex stuff), edge loop placement (ngons make edge loop creation easier) could all benefit from ngons and improvements to all the basic modelling tools.
that said i just recently watched a maya video on uv unwrapping a shotgun .. and all i have to say is .. maya users, i am SO sorry for you!
Cognitive dissonance is the cause of it. I just realized that I was just suffering from that very affliction. I had to rationalize my choice in software by determining that it is superior to others and when faced with dissenting opinion, I immediately reacted by trying to defend the choice that I had taken as better than others. I had so much so, that I refuse to find fault in any of its design. It's not the first time this has happened for me. It likely won't be the last. So the debate spirals down to reductio ad absurdum until Godwin's Law kicks in.
The truth is, I just prefer Blender because it "feels right" when I use it. I have a mind that works well with a bilateral control scheme. So I like it.
I'm looking at moving all (or close to all) my modeling back over to Blender once Bmesh is in, and I love the program. But it does need some TLC in some areas and ngon support is one, which would also open the modeling tools up to further improvements.
And yes, comparing UV mapping in maya and blender.......please don't take blender away from me!
What sort of modelling tools does everyone want in Blender?
It might be an idea to get some ideas logged down, so we can point devs. in the right direction
Yeah MetalAndy, you're right, sorry that I got steamed for this point, I shouldn't have, apologize for bashing everyone on this point sorry.
It's just that with all the bashing people are putting on Ngons just to defend Blender is getting on my ticks. I mean having workflow without Ngons is one thing, but it rubs me the wrong way when someone says "Hey, why do you need Ngons?"...it just sounds tacky and uncalled for...kinda like my previous comment now that I look on it.
A nice set of polyboost tools would nice (although I'm pretty sure Blender already has them).
LoopTools is now distributed with Blender and i made a Fastloop script a while back, if that is of any use
I learned to model in MS3D
Not a barrel of laughs :P
Nice list!
I had a quick look through and off the top of my head you can do some of this already
ability to select vertex group by faces rather than fundementally as vertex points:-
You can assign vertex groups like this already. To assign vertex groups, select the faces/verts and then go to > Object Data> Vertex Groups> Hit the + and then hit Assign.
To select them, just hit select.
Is that what you meant?
Seams from islands :-
I fixed this script the other day and have contacted the devs. about getting it included back into contrib. You can get it here
editing of proportional falloff:- You can do this already
(In Edit Mode)
object name editor:-
You can already change the names of Objects in the Properties panel (N) and the Object Data Panel
edges to curve:- You can do this by hitting Alt C in Object mode
clean meshes:- You do do some of this already. Remove Doubles (W), will remove any duplicated edges/verts and if you unassign Mats, vert groups etc. and then save your .Blend, the next time you open Blender (or the .Blend) they will be deleted.
I looked up polyboost and Blender has most of those features built in. There's plenty of other free plugins you can find that will add other useful functionality too. Oh, I also found a nifty site called Blendswap: http://www.blendswap.com/
I know that a nice PolyBridge tool from miauu would serve many well (unless Blender has it already).
Looptools
Really? Do we have to activate it as an addon?
Its under prefs> Mesh> Looptools.
Honestly...are you guys sure this program is free? I find it hard to believe Blender has next gen workflow and Autodesk products yet don't...
And relax is in! Sexy.
I created a proposal for this a while back: http://dim.blenderge.com/Documents/componentGroupProposal.pdf
I was flatly wrong about a couple of things, but my general point still stands.
when you reselect the vertex group it will select the triangle inbetween two triangles currently in the vert group.
http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-258/
I think im most excited about the Empty Images Display feature...it basically allows you to add blueprints in a similar way to max etc.
There is a 8 page change log too. lol
http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Release_Notes/changelog_258
I just thought I would spam this thread a bit, to tell everyone that I have just updated my Polysphere and Chainmail scripts so that they both work in 2.58.
Enjoy!
Normal cage and Anti-Aliasing?
Yea, currently the only way to bake (afaik) is with uniform ray distances, which suck.:P
You can work around the AA by baking double res. and resizing for 4x, but it would be nice if you didnt have too.
Yup
duplicate mesh
take duplicated mesh turn it into a cage mesh, set it to render target done
the duplicated mesh will have the same uvcoords because you were a smarty and unwrapped the original model before all of this.
This wouldn't change the way in which Blender uses uniform ray distances to control ray termination, and any distortion that you get when you scale along the normals (for the cage) would be transferred onto the bake. Also the vert. normals would be different, which would cause shading errors on the LP because the normal map was baked for a different mesh.
Make an empty, click on object data in the tabs pane, and select image from the dropdown. Click open and take your pick.