Scientists have discovered a form of bacteria that can thrive largely on arsenic -- an element generally considered toxic -- dramatically expanding both traditional notions of how life is sustained and the range of where it might be found in the universe, NASA funded-researchers announced Thursday.
Wait. I come here looking for aliens, and I get religion and Nazis
Both regular alien encounters that James T. Kirk battled and slept with.
EDIT:
Ahh. people were saying earlier that is was an arsenic base lifeform. Does this mean that the bacteria is actually carbon based? Not that it means alot to me but I expect the difference is astronomical.
cool finding though. i don't think it is so much that it can thrive on arsenic, but that it can take something that is considered toxic, and reconstruct it to fit in with what it needs to survive in its environment? could be wrong though... i was too distracted by her performance and over analyzed use of grammar and prose in the english language.
I remember hearing a news broadcast last year about a couple of scientists has been crawling around a old closed down open pit mine that has been flooded and is super toxic and loaded full of arsenic. At the time they where thinking that they could use the bacteria to help clean up super fund sites that are contaminated with arsenic...
Vig as I understand it these life forms don't eat arsenic but have their DNA actually composed of it.
I'm pretty underwhelmed though. As one of the scientists stated these components are pretty similar and cells had to evolve to tell the difference between the two, so an organism learning to use just arsenic rather than the other in an environment free of phosphorous doesn't really seem all that incredible.
Bah, these frontpeople for nasa just seem more jazzed about what this stuff is going to do for their career than the actual discovery, over-hyping it for their own gain. Pretty let down by Nasa right now.
I remember hearing a news broadcast last year about a couple of scientists has been crawling around a old closed down open pit mine that has been flooded and is super toxic and loaded full of arsenic. At the time they where thinking that they could use the bacteria to help clean up super fund sites that are contaminated with arsenic...
Unless this is something else...?
This isnt something else, but it is something new. Bacteria that can survive in arsenic = mindblowing. It was cool back then.
Bacteria that construct a fundamental part of their chemistry OUT of arsenic = WAY COOLER.
I'm pretty underwhelmed though. As one of the scientists stated these components are pretty similar and cells had to evolve to tell the difference between the two, so an organism learning to use just arsenic rather than the other in an environment free of phosphorous doesn't really seem all that incredible.
That's exactly what IS incredible. Life very similar to our own constructed with something incredibly destructive to all life as we know. We've been looking for earth-like planets, whereas this implies an incredibly inhospitable location like titan could still support some kind of life.
The reason this is interesting is because this bacteria substitutes phosphorus for arsenic in its genetic makeup. This means that arsenic is actually interweaved in the microbe's DNA.
This implies that life may be much more common than we once thought, because we only thought life consisted what we "Know". We used to think that Life only consisted of 6 key elements: Oxygen, Nitrogen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Phosphorus, and Sulfur... This microbe still uses all 6, however in it's natural environment, there isn't much phosphorus to use to make up the basic things that the cell needs. So technically speaking, this microbe shouldn't be able to exist, but it DOES.
Well why does it exist? The answer is completely unexpected and unprecedented. It exists because it can actually substitute Phosphorus with Arsenic as a basic building element for life. This implies that throughout the universe, life may be more common than we thought, mainly because we now understand that elements that are necessary for life to exist on earth might not be the same for it to exist elsewhere. For instance, we don't really spend the money on doing the astrobiological research on Titan, because as we know it, it's impossible for life to exist there. However, because of this new finding, it may be possible for "life to find a way" on Titan, given the circumstances that different elements can substitute in for the 6 that make up life on earth.
well i would have thought that scientist would think they basic chemicals of life would change from planet to planet.
Kinda common sense here
...Why? Most fundamental chemical processes only work certain ways. Just because there's a commonly held uneducated misconception that correlates with this doesnt mean it was obvious.
It always bothered me that scientists were always looking for "Earth Like" planets in the search of life. I'm glad that now we can broaden our search a little bit.
Pretty damn awesome, even if it's just evidence for something most scientists/scifi authors/nerds have known must be true for decades, but only lacked proof of.
You really think that isn't news? The basics of the science of biology are contradicted and you say 'duh'?
Yeah, I guess essentially. Not so much that it isn't news just that it's not amazing news. The basics of what little we've dabbled in, given the (apparent) scope of the universe, have been fucked with. I assume it will happen a lot over the years.
You're telling me that when you've got black holes consuming galaxies - possibly slowing down time for and spaghettifying the shit out of anything within its grasp, that when we've already got creatures on our own damn planet that may well be biologicallyimmortal, that this surprises you?
It's pretty cool that they've now got proof of the stuff, as Ferg said:
most scientists/scifi authors/nerds have known must be true for decades, but only lacked proof of.
boooh where is the laserbeams and fighting? the us president hopping into a jet and shooting some spaceships, the whole "welcome on urf" stuff is missing, the beating the shit out of that bacteria, i'm feeling somewhat dissappointed, i hope for some fossilized microbia from actually outer space. not that this not pretty cool to know that we are not based on the only possible base of life, but its still from earth and therefore not as cool and earthshaking as something from outside the earth would be.
I'm glad I slept-in this morning and missed this.
I knew it wouldn't be anything mind-blowing like we've discovered a primitive alien life form and here are the photos of them having sex. But I'm glad that scientists now have the proof that things don't need the same DNA make-up as humans to sustain life.
Like others have mentioned, it has always bothered me when scientists discredit planets because of the poisonous gases and lack of water or oxygen.
I'm glad I slept-in this morning and missed this.
I knew it wouldn't be anything mind-blowing like we've discovered a primitive alien life form and here are the photos of them having sex. But I'm glad that scientists now have the proof that things don't need the same DNA make-up as humans to sustain life.
Like others have mentioned, it has always bothered me when scientists discredit planets because of the poisonous gases and lack of water or oxygen.
Basically this!
Not just humans, basicly every form of life we've ever known of on this planet.
I wouldnt critisise scientists for searching earth like planets for life, theres so much space to search that they really must need to refine the search to the surest bets possable. We know 100% that our type of life exists so it makes sense to search for it in other similar conditions.
I wonder has this made the search easier or harder?
As someone who studied biochem... NERDGASM! This is some seriously earthshattering news, but I guess you have to have some in-depth knowledge to get real excited about it. Probably sounds boring to normal people.
What it really makes me wonder is if this similar sort of swap is now more likely between carbon and silicone. From what I've read it seems unlikely, at least while carbon is an option, but perhaps in the right environment a silicone based lifeform could exist.
Because it can reversibly react and bond with a wide range of elements. At the molecular level we're a chain of chemical reactions with carbon at the center, so to replace it you would need something equally versatile, which silicone is not.
This is pretty cool!
But what I'm wondering now is this: we've always though (well not always, but for the last couple of decennia) that all life on earth has one common ancestor, due to similarities in DNA, genes, proteins etc. But this bacteria has a different structure in the DNA itself, could it have evolved independently or seperately of our common ancestor? or would it have substituted its phosphorous at a later stage of its evolution?
This is pretty cool!
But what I'm wondering now is this: we've always though (well not always, but for the last couple of decennia) that all life on earth has one common ancestor, due to similarities in DNA, genes, proteins etc. But this bacteria has a different structure in the DNA itself, could it have evolved independently or seperately of our common ancestor? or would it have substituted its phosphorous at a later stage of its evolution?
Its a branch from the same tree, that fell off and started growing its own tree and can freely use either arsenic or phosphorous whichever it finds more suitable or abundant. If that had happened very early on, things would be pretty different for us. However the chances of this type of phosphorous based bacteria making this switch on its own is pretty low, it was us that created the toxic conditions that allowed the switch to take place.
BUT if one core building block can be switched out what else can be changed that previously was thought to be constant. They'll be trying to see what other combos of elements support life and how they can be switched.
It's all speculation and I'm not saying the church is out burning witches or scientists but when something gets held back that long by one group... with no closure, you have to see where the frustration comes from?
No, I really don't see where the frustration with lack of closure comes from, the issues happened hundreds of years ago. The Vatican may not approve of this or that scientific endeavour, but it can do fuck all to actually stop it. They can't ban your writing or throw you in prison or nail you to a cross. All they can do is issue a press release and, I dunno, maybe that will turn some of their faithful against you. Considering the intersection of Catholic and liberal in the United States, I don't think even that's a serious consideration.
Once upon a time, the Catholic Church was the most powerful organization in the world, and they used their power to stymie science and innovation to suit their world view. That sucked. But they are no longer capable of doing that, and haven't been capable of it for many generations. Holding a grudge against the Church over that doesn't make sense.
By way of comparison, I live in a state with a Creation Museum - an actual tourist attraction devoted to the notion that Darwinism is wrong and the Earth was created in exactly 6 days. A different group are looking to build a Noah's Ark amusement park here in Kentucky, complete with presumably life-sized ark. Compared to literalist Christians like those, the ones who totally eschew science in favor of Old Testament allegories, the Catholic Church are some liberal free-thinking science-lovers.
I see plenty of reasons for disliking the Church, I left it myself, but the anti-science scorn just doesn't hold up IMO.
This is pretty cool!
But what I'm wondering now is this: we've always though (well not always, but for the last couple of decennia) that all life on earth has one common ancestor, due to similarities in DNA, genes, proteins etc. But this bacteria has a different structure in the DNA itself, could it have evolved independently or seperately of our common ancestor? or would it have substituted its phosphorous at a later stage of its evolution?
No, this is really just a proof of concept that a bacteria could adapt to a different dna structure, to encourage us to start searching more broadly for types of life on earth.
If this was to lead to the discovery of life that HAD evolved independently on earth (something we've never even begun to search for, since our systems to detect life are intended to detect life as we knew it) it would be a slam dunk for astrobiology. If life could form spontaneously twice or more on the same planet the implications would be profound.
like, what if, shortly after first contact, when we/they have learned to communicate with each other, and we started sharing our knowledge. they literally turned round to us and said like:
so this whole maths thing you've got going... you know how you have 9 numbers? and once you reach 10 it just repeats...
yeah you're doing that shit wrong.
imagine if they dropped a logic bombshell that just completely dicked over our entire way of thinking.
like, what if, shortly after first contact, when we/they have learned to communicate with each other, and we started sharing our knowledge. they literally turned round to us and said like:
so this whole maths thing you've got going... you know how you have 9 numbers? and once you reach 10 it just repeats...
yeah you're doing that shit wrong.
imagine if they dropped a logic bombshell that just completely dicked over our entire way of thinking.
lots of things don't use base 10. binary, for example.
i know that was just an example, but felt compelled to answer
It's a very possible theory. And the opposite happening is just as likely, perhaps we'll drop a logic bombshell on them, and we'll be forever known as GLORIOUS HUMANS.
so funny if we discover an alien civilisation...and we are more advanced than them....ppl always put our salvation in aliens coming and bringing awesome tech with em...
Replies
Arsenic-feeding bacteria expands traditional notions of life
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/02/nasa.extraterrestrial.life/index.html?hpt=T2
Scientists have discovered a form of bacteria that can thrive largely on arsenic -- an element generally considered toxic -- dramatically expanding both traditional notions of how life is sustained and the range of where it might be found in the universe, NASA funded-researchers announced Thursday.
Both regular alien encounters that James T. Kirk battled and slept with.
EDIT:
Ahh. people were saying earlier that is was an arsenic base lifeform. Does this mean that the bacteria is actually carbon based? Not that it means alot to me but I expect the difference is astronomical.
...this...this is such a revelation.
seriously.
cool finding though. i don't think it is so much that it can thrive on arsenic, but that it can take something that is considered toxic, and reconstruct it to fit in with what it needs to survive in its environment? could be wrong though... i was too distracted by her performance and over analyzed use of grammar and prose in the english language.
You really think that isn't news? The basics of the science of biology are contradicted and you say 'duh'?
This was actually made public in 2003-2008.
http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/environment_sciences/report-20856.html 2003
http://www.min-eng.com/biotechnology/63.html 2008
http://www.topnews.in/node/59380 2008
I remember hearing a news broadcast last year about a couple of scientists has been crawling around a old closed down open pit mine that has been flooded and is super toxic and loaded full of arsenic. At the time they where thinking that they could use the bacteria to help clean up super fund sites that are contaminated with arsenic...
Unless this is something else...?
edit : I want arsenic to be the backbone of my DNA, hopefully I'll grow wings and have superhuman powers!
SHES NOT TELLING US EVERYTHING.......WTF....
they're hot potatoes.
We have been looking for something very particularly human life like so could have been over looking all other options for life.
Were like kids at a lake looking for a fish in a lake full of frogs, bugs and snakes. We don't see any fish so we start thinking the lake is dead.
I'm pretty underwhelmed though. As one of the scientists stated these components are pretty similar and cells had to evolve to tell the difference between the two, so an organism learning to use just arsenic rather than the other in an environment free of phosphorous doesn't really seem all that incredible.
Bah, these frontpeople for nasa just seem more jazzed about what this stuff is going to do for their career than the actual discovery, over-hyping it for their own gain. Pretty let down by Nasa right now.
This isnt something else, but it is something new. Bacteria that can survive in arsenic = mindblowing. It was cool back then.
Bacteria that construct a fundamental part of their chemistry OUT of arsenic = WAY COOLER.
That's exactly what IS incredible. Life very similar to our own constructed with something incredibly destructive to all life as we know. We've been looking for earth-like planets, whereas this implies an incredibly inhospitable location like titan could still support some kind of life.
TOTALLY AGREED
The reason this is interesting is because this bacteria substitutes phosphorus for arsenic in its genetic makeup. This means that arsenic is actually interweaved in the microbe's DNA.
This implies that life may be much more common than we once thought, because we only thought life consisted what we "Know". We used to think that Life only consisted of 6 key elements: Oxygen, Nitrogen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Phosphorus, and Sulfur... This microbe still uses all 6, however in it's natural environment, there isn't much phosphorus to use to make up the basic things that the cell needs. So technically speaking, this microbe shouldn't be able to exist, but it DOES.
Well why does it exist? The answer is completely unexpected and unprecedented. It exists because it can actually substitute Phosphorus with Arsenic as a basic building element for life. This implies that throughout the universe, life may be more common than we thought, mainly because we now understand that elements that are necessary for life to exist on earth might not be the same for it to exist elsewhere. For instance, we don't really spend the money on doing the astrobiological research on Titan, because as we know it, it's impossible for life to exist there. However, because of this new finding, it may be possible for "life to find a way" on Titan, given the circumstances that different elements can substitute in for the 6 that make up life on earth.
I hope that clears some stuff up
Polycount disappointed at the lack of alien vagina.
^
...Why? Most fundamental chemical processes only work certain ways. Just because there's a commonly held uneducated misconception that correlates with this doesnt mean it was obvious.
When do we get to start snogging blue chicks??
I know!
I keep trying to derail this thread into the proper avenue, but it's not working.
The real question: Can you have a baby with one of them hot blue aliens? Will it be blue? Or is it gonna be purple or something?
Yeah, I guess essentially. Not so much that it isn't news just that it's not amazing news. The basics of what little we've dabbled in, given the (apparent) scope of the universe, have been fucked with. I assume it will happen a lot over the years.
You're telling me that when you've got black holes consuming galaxies - possibly slowing down time for and spaghettifying the shit out of anything within its grasp, that when we've already got creatures on our own damn planet that may well be biologically immortal, that this surprises you?
It's pretty cool that they've now got proof of the stuff, as Ferg said:
Cool. But not surprising.
I knew it wouldn't be anything mind-blowing like we've discovered a primitive alien life form and here are the photos of them having sex. But I'm glad that scientists now have the proof that things don't need the same DNA make-up as humans to sustain life.
Like others have mentioned, it has always bothered me when scientists discredit planets because of the poisonous gases and lack of water or oxygen.
Basically this!
Not just humans, basicly every form of life we've ever known of on this planet.
I wonder has this made the search easier or harder?
What it really makes me wonder is if this similar sort of swap is now more likely between carbon and silicone. From what I've read it seems unlikely, at least while carbon is an option, but perhaps in the right environment a silicone based lifeform could exist.
Because it can reversibly react and bond with a wide range of elements. At the molecular level we're a chain of chemical reactions with carbon at the center, so to replace it you would need something equally versatile, which silicone is not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Silicon_biochemistry
But what I'm wondering now is this: we've always though (well not always, but for the last couple of decennia) that all life on earth has one common ancestor, due to similarities in DNA, genes, proteins etc. But this bacteria has a different structure in the DNA itself, could it have evolved independently or seperately of our common ancestor? or would it have substituted its phosphorous at a later stage of its evolution?
holy fuck vig, thats some mean shit right there...and tons of noteable ppl have gotten it! damn...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrotizing_fasciitis
warning, gnarly images after link...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/02/nasa-could-announce-arsenic-eating-bacteria_n_790954.html
Its a branch from the same tree, that fell off and started growing its own tree and can freely use either arsenic or phosphorous whichever it finds more suitable or abundant. If that had happened very early on, things would be pretty different for us. However the chances of this type of phosphorous based bacteria making this switch on its own is pretty low, it was us that created the toxic conditions that allowed the switch to take place.
BUT if one core building block can be switched out what else can be changed that previously was thought to be constant. They'll be trying to see what other combos of elements support life and how they can be switched.
No, I really don't see where the frustration with lack of closure comes from, the issues happened hundreds of years ago. The Vatican may not approve of this or that scientific endeavour, but it can do fuck all to actually stop it. They can't ban your writing or throw you in prison or nail you to a cross. All they can do is issue a press release and, I dunno, maybe that will turn some of their faithful against you. Considering the intersection of Catholic and liberal in the United States, I don't think even that's a serious consideration.
Once upon a time, the Catholic Church was the most powerful organization in the world, and they used their power to stymie science and innovation to suit their world view. That sucked. But they are no longer capable of doing that, and haven't been capable of it for many generations. Holding a grudge against the Church over that doesn't make sense.
By way of comparison, I live in a state with a Creation Museum - an actual tourist attraction devoted to the notion that Darwinism is wrong and the Earth was created in exactly 6 days. A different group are looking to build a Noah's Ark amusement park here in Kentucky, complete with presumably life-sized ark. Compared to literalist Christians like those, the ones who totally eschew science in favor of Old Testament allegories, the Catholic Church are some liberal free-thinking science-lovers.
I see plenty of reasons for disliking the Church, I left it myself, but the anti-science scorn just doesn't hold up IMO.
No, this is really just a proof of concept that a bacteria could adapt to a different dna structure, to encourage us to start searching more broadly for types of life on earth.
If this was to lead to the discovery of life that HAD evolved independently on earth (something we've never even begun to search for, since our systems to detect life are intended to detect life as we knew it) it would be a slam dunk for astrobiology. If life could form spontaneously twice or more on the same planet the implications would be profound.
like, what if, shortly after first contact, when we/they have learned to communicate with each other, and we started sharing our knowledge. they literally turned round to us and said like:
so this whole maths thing you've got going... you know how you have 9 numbers? and once you reach 10 it just repeats...
yeah you're doing that shit wrong.
imagine if they dropped a logic bombshell that just completely dicked over our entire way of thinking.
lots of things don't use base 10. binary, for example.
i know that was just an example, but felt compelled to answer